Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[NintenRob]

If Waluigi is in, he'd probably be first. But would that mean they'd also show off Luigi and Wario returning at the same time? Because it'd be weird to reveal Waluigi but not those two

 

[BrawlX10]

Let's discuss something, which newcomer do you think we'll be in the first reveal trailer for the next smash?

My guess is Waluigi and a hype 3rd party at the end: Crash or Undertale rep are my guesses.

 

[ninjahmos]

Assuming it’s like Brawl and they reveal five newcomers:

• Waluigi
• Bandana Waddle Dee
• Octoling
• Ring Fit Trainee
• A 3rd party character

Honestly, I'd be surprised if they took that approach. It'd be pretty exciting though.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Though, how hard is Ninja Gaiden on the NES?

1 and 3, very. 2 is more reasonable. And the best one anyway.

I'd be down for it. I actually like playing as Sub Zero more, but Scorpions design has always been peak, especially after they were made less aesthetically similar.

Teleport and hookshot make for a better Smash Moveset.

Hero without RNG and his spell menu would be so boring tho. That basically would take away what makes him unique.

What makes unique is what makes him garbage. It's Little Mac all over again...

Honestly if you were to do justice to the character, you'd probably have to do both since the point of him is that he could go either way.

Just make him play like Frisk, but then his FS channels Chara.

Let's discuss something, which newcomer do you think we'll be in the first reveal trailer for the next smash?

Some Nintendo character I don't care about. Followed by the 'busa.

 

[SharkLord]

If Waluigi is in, he'd probably be first. But would that mean they'd also show off Luigi and Wario returning at the same time? Because it'd be weird to reveal Waluigi but not those two

I mean, it's Luigi and Wario. I don't think anyone's expecting them to get cut, and after EiH veteran reveals won't have the same impact. Might as well cut to the chase

 

[Ivander]

Some Nintendo character I don't care about. Followed by the 'busa.

Some Nintendo character you don't care about followed by the 'busa? Wouldn't Jonesy getting off of the 'busa make you less enthusiastic?

 

[smashkirby]

Maybe, although personally I would be very very disappointed if this was the direction they chose to go.

Depending on how much a “good chunk” is I suppose. But I’d sooner cut half of our existing third party lineup than give up some of my “niche Nintendo characters”.

Oh, you're preaching to the choir here...

Like, it'll be a bummer to lose Terry or Steve, but I DEFINITELY don't see myself being all that cool with the idea of sacrificing (what I consider to be) the most unique aspect of Smash next to the the 3rd party additions in such a big way.

 

[SharkLord]

I'm wondering if the 45 veteran-15 newcomer trend is all that accurate. It's been pointed out that Ultimate had 55 veterans and almost 15 new characters, since they had to bring the veterans back, so we might be able to go a bit further than 60 fighters. That said, three of those vets that skipped Smash 4 were clones to some degree, and I'd bet veterans are easier to figure out than entirely new characters, so I'm not sure if they're quite as hard to develop.

Maybe around 64-65? 64 sounds like a nice number, what with the Nintendo 64 and all. It's also a perfect square - Yes, I know Nintendo doesn't care about that too much, but I sure do.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I admittedly don't care much for Hero's mostly randomly decided list of spells in general, more so since several of them lack enough start-up lag to easily be countered or cancelled, but Whack and Thwack (as well as the random Critical Hits, which at least thankfully don't kill on the spot and still launch the opponent instead) escalate it to being straight up bogus and a chore to fight in my opinion.

If they just got rid of the instant death attacks and random critical hits, though, and reworked some of his other moves and abilities to more than make up for it, Hero would be much better and and I think I'd actually enjoy the challenge of fighting them.

This makes a lot more sense to me.


And yeeeeeah I think most of his spells ac the way they do because of how clunky Command Selection is. The time it takes to read your spell list is considered the startup lag for these spells, so it's OK for Sizz and Kaboom to be instant, fast moving projectiles that just kill you. Meanwhile Flame Slash and Kakrackle Slash have to be that fast or you could never hit them. Fix the issues with how players interact with Command Selection and I think most of these would end up being balanced more like normal moves.

 

[dream1ng]

I mean, it's Luigi and Wario. I don't think anyone's expecting them to get cut, and after EiH veteran reveals won't have the same impact. Might as well cut to the chase

I don't anticipate all the base game vets revealed from the jump since that would disclose whose been cut very quickly. They can avoid all that backlash while maintaining engagement by stringing people along until DLC, where we learn the final base roster but also that more vets will be returning as DLC down the road, which will mitigate most of the blowback. People will keep hope alive for whatever character not yet revealed, all the way until the bitter end (unless they're completely deconfirmed before that).

Now Luigi and Wario they might reveal at the beginning just because it's Luigi and Wario. And I don't think you can do a Waluigi reveal without Wario in there somewhere tbh. But I'm expecting a chunk of vets at every big show (the reveal, Smash directs) and other vet reveals intermittently until release.

Once people realize they're not all coming back, they'll still be happy by even just a vet reveal.

 

[SharkLord]

Personally, I'd retool Hero into a bait-and-punish character, who's supposed to block or dodge an attack and follow up with a counter. His attacks would still have a bit of startup and endlag, so you have to make sure your attack is in a position to land. This way, he can keep the spirit of turn-based battles without being overly gimmicky. The Command Menu is cute, but in a fast-paced fighter, the enemy is almost always either in your face or too far away.

I don't anticipate all the base game vets revealed from the jump since that would disclose whose been cut very quickly. They can avoid all that backlash while maintaining engagement by stringing people along until DLC, where we learn the final base roster but also that more vets will be returning as DLC down the road, which will mitigate most of the blowback. People will keep hope alive for whatever character not yet revealed, all the way until the bitter end (unless they're completely deconfirmed before that).

Now Luigi and Wario they might reveal at the beginning just because it's Luigi and Wario. And I don't think you can do a Waluigi reveal without Wario in there somewhere tbh. But I'm expecting a chunk of vets at every big show (the reveal, Smash directs) and other vet reveals intermittently until release.

Once people realize they're not all coming back, they'll still be happy by even just a vet reveal.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I don't expect them to dump every single veteran all at once, but Luigi and Wario are absolute no-brainers and everyone's expecting them to show up sooner or later, so might as well do it sooner.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I don't expect them to dump every single veteran all at once, but Luigi and Wario are absolute no-brainers and everyone's expecting them to show up sooner or later, so might as well do it sooner.

I could see Wario being a part of Waluigi's trailer as part of his confirmation, but Luigi's a bit of an odd case? Like obviously he's not going anywhere but he's also like usually weirdly late to the party, most likely because he's unlockable most games, so I could see them holding off on him? I dunno, but it'd be really fun to have a goofy trailer focusing on Wario and Waluigi kinda like the cutscenes in Mario Power Tennis, for instance.

 

[Watuna4343]

I wouldn't call them dumb, but I do agree that cuts are being overestimated. Up until now, cuts have occurred for 3 reasons, let me go quickly over them and try and explain why I think they're not as big an issue as I previously thought:

Technical Limitations: This one is simple to explain. Characters like the Ice Climbers were cut because the console, in their case the 3DS, couldn't run them properly. I presume this is also why the Chorus Kids didn't get in Smash 4. The Switch 2 will be more powerful than the Switch so there should be no Ultimate character that would have this sort of issue going forward.

Lack of time: Sometimes low priority characters simply get unlucky and there's not enough time for them to get in. This is the reason why Mewtwo and Roy couldn't make it to Brawl. Even Pichu was sorta going to come back if pra_mai truly was Plusle & Minun. If Sakurai's current project is a new Smash Bros, it already has the exact development time as Ultimate. No matter when it releases, if Sakurai's project really is Smash, it'll be the Smash with the longest development time ever. To add to this, it's very likely that Bandai Namco are the developers again, allowing them to reuse Ultimate's assets and save themselves even more time. What I'm trying to say is that lack of time may not seemingly be an issue.

Negotiation issues: This is mostly just for the third parties and I'm assuming the reason why Snake was cut in Smash 4. At this point, I really doubt any of the third parties wouldn't want to come back, even Square Enix and Disney. A little known fact, but besides having two DLC characters, Square actually had the most amount of Spirit Events on Ultimate. If anything I expect Square to come back and get even more DLC characters like 2B or maybe even Clive. As for Disney, Sora's status as the ballot winner would probably make his return a priority for Nintendo. Even if he doesn't come back in base, he'd absolutely return as DLC.

I used to think we'll get a big amount of cuts, but I don't know, I've started considering the possibility of there being little to no cuts lately and found myself slowly convincing myself that it could happen.

Not really fair to bring up the past games, since we are facing a very unique situation now of having a legit gigantic roster with even Sakurai himself admitting already before the DLC was even close to finished that Everyone is Here is most definitely not happening again. Which is plausible, because even with the highest development time, you are still either way talking about bringing back the most veterans out of any Smash game. Like even if you bring back 50 veterans (unique fighters and clones included), that's still the 2nd highest amount of veterans to return in any Smash game, only beaten by Ultimate itself. And we have to consider what Ultimate did sacrifice to get everyone back; we've had the lowest number of veterans in base-game and we've had the most lackluster single player content since like, ever. For there to be absolutely no cuts or even little cuts as you say, then we are talking about again having a game where the singe player content is lacking and where the newcomers at the base-roster are again left to the absolute bare minimum just to bring back as many fighters back - which with all due respect doesn't sound realistic. That basically sounds like an Ultimate 2.0 version masquerading as a new Smash game. The 2nd reason you stated (lack of time) will absolutely cause at least a couple of characters to get cut, because we are talking about a lot of fighters, more than usual fighting to get in the game with other content as well (a decent chunk of newcomers, stronger single-player content, new stages etc. Stuff that will differentiate the game from Ultimate so that it stands out on its own as much as possible) and then with the 3rd parties, even if most of them were easy to work with, I genuinely see us having a Smash 4 situation with Snake where... they just didn't ask for him to be back. In general, I'm not arguing that half the roster will go. There's a very realistic chance we'll see 50-55 veterans return, but the mindset of expecting little to no cuts is just begging to experience the disappointment when the next game has left like 30 veterans out.

 

[BrawlX10]

Some Nintendo character you don't care about followed by the 'busa? Wouldn't Jonesy getting off of the 'busa make you less enthusiastic?

Now that Fortnite has been mentioned.....i honestly wouldn't mind a Fortnite rep, i think it would be cool, also imagine a stage taking place on the Fortnite Battle Buss landing on diferent locations of the Chapter 1 map...some items like the charge shotgun would be fun to see in smash as well.
I am also not sure what the chances of a Fortnite rep, if someone wants to predict the chances, im all ears, cuz im unsure xD.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

One potential fix would be to give Command Selection a wheel like Monado Arts. Option one would be up, two left, three right, and four down. This would require making it a neutral special, but I think you could get away with making the Zap line his down special and the Frizz line his side special. You might be able to get away with keeping it as down special, but I don't like that as much since it would make selecting option four the default. Regardless, the change would not only require making sure you could read what you're selecting without looking at the bottom of the screen, but it would also make navigating the menu much easier.

You could also lock in Command Selection's spell list, only generating new spells when you use one, which would mean that you could plan for your more niche spells (like the slashes) instead of opening up the selection and hoping you get something you can use. Dunno if that's exactly what he needs or if it's a step too far. I'm kinda leaning to the former though since the random effects of similar moves like What Could This Be? don't change the timing of when you'd want to use them, but Command Selection is more like Asuka's spells in which you'd want to know what you have at your disposal, and plan ahead.

EDIT: Although, it's really just Flame Slash, Metal Slash, and Kakrackle Slash that do this since the rest are ranged attacks, or buffs, either of which want to be used at a distance so...I dunno.

 

[SubspaceJigglypuff]

Luigi's a bit of an odd case? Like obviously he's not going anywhere but he's also like usually weirdly late to the party, most likely because he's unlockable most games

That's exactly why; discounting Ultimate, they've almost never revealed unlockable characters pre-release. The only times they did were with Brawl's third parties and Lucina in Smash 4.

What's funnier is that Sakurai acknowledged it for Luigi in Smash 4 and basically said they chose to make an exception 'cause of the Year of Luigi lol.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

I can agree with that, but that doesn't mean fighting a character who can use several deadly attacks at random or randomly kill you on the spot just for landing two specific attacks from their spell menu above a certain damage percentage, completely foregoing the blast zones and.momentum always needed by literally any other character to K.O without items, is fun.

You can rework Hero's moveset and take away their randomly determined instant death attacks without removing their unique primary RNG mechanic or making them underpowered.

To each their own that’s part of what makes Hero fun to play, specially in Casual settings. And nonetheless even in competitive play those insta kill moves are quite predictable. You can tell when your opponent is looking to try to hit you with those moves so I can argue is balanced well enough.

Don't forget that Dragon Quest is the Grandfather to all RPGs. It is the game that started RPGs to exist with Akira Toriyama's design to breathe life.

Indeed

1 and 3, very. 2 is more reasonable. And the best one anyway.

Teleport and hookshot make for a better Smash Moveset.

What makes unique is what makes him garbage. It's Little Mac all over again...

Just make him play like Frisk, but then his FS channels Chara.

Some Nintendo character I don't care about. Followed by the 'busa.

I take a character being kind of garbage but unique with a fun moveset over a top tier but boring character to play any day of the week personally but you do you. And this is coming from someone that thinks little Mac could definitely use a moveset rework.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

That's exactly why; discounting Ultimate, they've almost never revealed unlockable characters pre-release. The only times they did were with Brawl's third parties and Lucina in Smash 4.

What's funnier is that Sakurai acknowledged it for Luigi in Smash 4 and basically said they chose to make an exception 'cause of the Year of Luigi lol.

True. I had honestly forgotten about that for Brawl and 4 because it's been so long and Ultimate just did EiH to get everyone out the door right away lmao

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

PersonAngelo53
Don't triple post.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

PersonAngelo53
Don't triple post.

Ohh, is it not allowed to respond to three different comments in a short time from each other? My bad didn’t knew that was the case.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Ohh, is it not allowed to respond to three different comments in a short time from each other? My bad didn’t knew that was the case.

Try to make it all in one post; we aren't allowed to make consecutive posts in a row without someone else posting between.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

Try to make it all in one post; we aren't allowed to make consecutive posts in a row without someone else posting between.

Ah dang my bad I keep that in mind for next time. Kind of new to some things here. I still don’t even know how to spoiler mark stuff here lol.

 

[Ivander]

So how about a topic that doesn't get talked about as much as character cuts, character chances and whatnot.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

So how about a topic that doesn't get talked about as much as character cuts, character chances and whatnot.
View attachment 399104

I'd love for Meta Knight to get a Morpho Knight costume. I dunno if they'd go all the way with it because of the Galacta Knight one not going all the way with it, but I'd still like one.

 

[Wonder Smash]

So how about a topic that doesn't get talked about as much as character cuts, character chances and whatnot.
View attachment 399104

If this includes characters not in yet, I'd want Hayabusa and Doom Slayer to both have their classic looks as alternate costumes.

 

[AreJay25]

So how about a topic that doesn't get talked about as much as character cuts, character chances and whatnot.
View attachment 399104

I ain't asking for much.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I ain't asking for much.

But we already have Thumbs Up Ken.

 

[ninjahmos]

So how about a topic that doesn't get talked about as much as character cuts, character chances and whatnot.
View attachment 399104

Two words: Masked Dedede

 

[Hadokeyblade]

But we already have Thumbs Up Ken.

Speaking of.

Young Ken would be a neat costume.

Throw in Evil Ryu as well why not

 

[HyperSomari64]

So how about a topic that doesn't get talked about as much as character cuts, character chances and whatnot.
View attachment 399104

Marth from Tokyo Mirage Sessions
Spoilers, but he is not Marth.

 

[ninjahmos]

Speaking of.

Young Ken would be a neat costume.

Throw in Evil Ryu as well why not

Well, if Young Ken is being added as a costume, they may as well include Young Ryu too.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Two words: Masked Dedede

I'll be honest, as long as they keep this as King Dedede's Final Smash from this point on (I think the Masked Dedede rockets and the slam into the cage is perfect for him), I'm kinda okay with him not having it as a costume?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So how about a topic that doesn't get talked about as much as character cuts, character chances and whatnot.
View attachment 399104

Mario needs his Fire Flower clothing back. Honestly, I'd like to see more than 8 on some, as long as there's a base 8 for all.

I'd still love to see Mewtwo having its armor, but it's fairly bulky, so it wouldn't be a Meta Ridley situation(and obviously there's a lot of pickiness on how Pokemon costumes happen due to the rights split three ways, but yeah).

I wish Sonic got more changes that are a bit closer to referencing the various friends/etc. he's got. We got one kind of close to Silver's coloring, but even the darker costume is closer to Dark Super Sonic than anything else.

Not many I can think of otherwise, though.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Ohh, is it not allowed to respond to three different comments in a short time from each other? My bad didn’t knew that was the case.

There's a multiquote button (+Quote) for replying to multiple people in one post.

 

[ninjahmos]

I'm gonna quote myself from an earlier page:

It'll probably never happen, but I think it'd be pretty cool if they added these two Captain Falcon designs as alts:

View attachment 396306

 

[Amornal1]

Let's discuss something, which newcomer do you think we'll be in the first reveal trailer for the next smash?

Ring fit trainee.

 

[fogbadge]

Well, I more meant "small size", but fair point!

...And mostly cause Doll gives a whole nother suggestion. XD

I do beg your pardon I thought that's what you were suggesting

Marth from Tokyo Mirage Sessions
Spoilers, but he is not Marth.

like what almost happened to lucina

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Mario needs his Fire Flower clothing back. Honestly, I'd like to see more than 8 on some, as long as there's a base 8 for all.

I'd still love to see Mewtwo having its armor, but it's fairly bulky, so it wouldn't be a Meta Ridley situation(and obviously there's a lot of pickiness on how Pokemon costumes happen due to the rights split three ways, but yeah).

I wish Sonic got more changes that are a bit closer to referencing the various friends/etc. he's got. We got one kind of close to Silver's coloring, but even the darker costume is closer to Dark Super Sonic than anything else.

Not many I can think of otherwise, though.

Lucario is a notable example where all of his alts for the most part are Smash original and especially since most characters have at least have one alt that aren’t. Not even an alt that barely resembles the shiny.

Also the same issue as Sonic to a lesser extent where some of them are the same color.

 

[DynamicSmasher]

Let's discuss something, which newcomer do you think we'll be in the first reveal trailer for the next smash?

Let's see... Smash 4 had Villager, a somewhat surprising pick given that Sakurai had previously expressed reservations for him. But in the end, not a super surprising reveal, I would say, with Animal Crossing's star continuing to rise. More surprising would be Mega Man and Wii Fit later in the day.

Similarly, Brawl revealed Meta Knight first, then Pit, Zamus and Wario in short order. After a bit of an intermission, they revealed Snake, the first third party character.

Ultimate, of course, had Inkling. So I'd be inclined to say they'll lead with an exciting, but not super surprising first party. Someone like Octoling, or Ring Fit Trainee could fit, as could the likes of Meowscarda/some other gen 9/10 Pokémon, Noah/Mio, or Bandana Dee.

 

[fogbadge]

Alternate costumes you say?

Well first of all Detective Pikachu and more importantly Captain Pikachu!

Inkling could do with some based on the designs from the later games, I’m thinking the green haired one from 2 with the dualies and the yellow haired one from 3 with the splatbow.

Ganondorf could have his demon king and zombie designs from totk

Zelda can have her less conventional designs, like her Skyward Sword red dress

Xenoblade 3 Shulk

KH Cloud

Pirate Sora

New Horizons Isabelle

Outfits from Princess Peach Showtime