Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Wonder Smash]

Out of topic, but what do y'all think of Kunio in Smash? I mean, it makes a lot of sense.
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Oh, he definitely makes sense! Plus, he's one of my MWs.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Out of topic, but what do y'all think of Kunio in Smash? I mean, it makes a lot of sense.

One of my most wanted characters.

Though, as an ArcSys owned character, I'm worried he won't come till after Sol.

What do you all think are the odds of all Microsoft-owned characters in Smash Ultimate returning for the next game?

100%.

 

[Dukefire]

Out of topic, but what do y'all think of Kunio in Smash? I mean, it makes a lot of sense.
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Juat asking, does WayForward holds the rights to River City or another company I don't know about?

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Juat asking, does WayForward holds the rights to River City or another company I don't know about?

As far as I'm aware, the Kunio-kun IP is licensed out to WayForward for the River City Girls games, but the rights are still held by ArcSys after their acquisition of most of Technos' assets (which also includes stuff like Double Dragon.)

 

[ninjahmos]

Out of topic, but what do y'all think of Kunio in Smash? I mean, it makes a lot of sense.
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I'd be all for Kunio (and Riki, if possible). I'd also love to see Billy and Jimmy, but I'm not sure whether ArcSys would be down with someone from the Technos games or if they'd rather have someone from Guilty Gear join Smash first, like Sol.

 

[Speed Weed]

Then again, it could just as easily end up being Misako over Kunio...

If Misako was picked over Kunio I would cry

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

I don't know if this is a hot take but I don't really think the River City Girls games are that good.

 

[dream1ng]

100%.

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You're making it real easy to be wrong lol

 

[Stratos]

Although Conker is one of the characters I would like to see in the Super Smash Bros. series due to his debut in Diddy Kong Racing, I can't accept him because with the exception of Conker's Pocket Tales, his other games have been made for a very mature audience and in my opinion they should have continued to make him family friendly. I wish they had released Twelve Tales: Conker 64 and released other games of his that were also family friendly.

 

[maf91186]

As glad as I am to hear that the Switch 2 will most likely be getting some strong third-party support unlike the Wii's successor, I'd find it odd to see a gaming market where only Nintendo and Sony remained as the big names in the gaming console industry

Takes me back to the year 2000 sigh of nostalgia

 

[Gengar84]

I don't know if this is a hot take but I don't really think the River City Girls games are that good.

I don’t know either and you’re entitled to your opinion. It was actually my brother’s favorite game we played last year and we had a blast playing it with our friends. My brother and I later bought River City Girls Zero (which is a port of a formerly Japanese exclusive River City Ransom game with added cutscenes) and didn’t have nearly as fun a time with it. So far, that’s my only experience with the mainline series but I was kind of disappointed with it after playing the two River City Girls games. The added intro and ending cutscenes and opening and ending credits themes were great though.

Although Conker is one of the characters I would like to see in the Super Smash Bros. series due to his debut in Diddy Kong Racing, I can't accept him because with the exception of Conker's Pocket Tales, his other games have been made for a very mature audience and in my opinion they should have continued to make him family friendly. I wish they had released Twelve Tales: Conker 64 and released other games of his that were also family friendly.

I love classic RARE but Conker never really clicked with me. I think I just have a different taste in humor than what that game was going for. I do admire the effort to try to make something unique and break expectations of the genre but it’s just not really my thing. If they somehow chose Conker, I’d personally be pretty disappointed but I’d be happy for his fans just like any other character. I also feel like there’s more to RARE than 3D N64 mascot platformers so I’d prefer to see something outside of that for their next character if they get one.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Pretty much this.

If they wanted to do a few more Smash original stages, then great, I'd be super down for that, but to completely remove locations based on the actual games in your big crossover is just a bad move.

Hmm a crossover game with no crossover stages or music.

Don't think I'd be a fan...

I mean it could just be stages based on IPs, just not actual locations. Like how traverse town is based on homely Disney town and Hollow Bastion based of a Final Fantasy castle

so Grass = based on Mario/DK/Kirby
Castle = FE/Zelda
City = AC/Mother

etc

since we are on MvC2... SonSon, Amigo or Ruby? Would make good picks no for Smash?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The River City games fall into that odd category where I deeply respect them, but they never really clicked with me the same way Streets of Rage or even Final Fight did. Much like Double Dragon, I think discovering the games long after I'd been deep into other beat em' ups meant they were titles I could intellectual see why they were so important and recognize the things they did well while at the same lacking the same kind of exciting immersion with them that a playthrough of a Streets of Rage 2 could offer me.

I am glad that River City has become more recognized the in West these last 10 years and it would absolutely deserve to be in Smash fighter wise; it's just that an Axel Stone or Mike Haggar is always going to be the bigger deal because of when I first played them.

 

[Gengar84]

The River City games fall into that odd category where I deeply respect them, but they never really clicked with me the same way Streets of Rage or even Final Fight did. Much like Double Dragon, I think discovering the games long after I'd been deep into other beat em' ups meant they were titles I could intellectual see why they were so important and recognize the things they did well while at the same lacking the same kind of exciting immersion with them that a could playthrough of a Streets of Rage 2 could offer me.

I am glad that River City has become more recognized the in West these last 10 years and it would absolutely deserve to be in Smash fighter wise; it's just that an Axel Stone or Mike Haggar is always going to be the bigger deal because of when I first played them.

I’m the same way but my choice is the Battletoads. Not so much because I thought their games were better but because I just think they’re really cool characters with fun and unique abilities that would be a blast to play in Smash. I did really enjoy the first few stages of the original Battletoads and Battlemaniacs but they got too hard past Turbo Tunnel. The arcade game and Battletoads & Double Dragon were great throughout though. I never really played other Beat ‘em Ups besides Battletoads, TMNT, and Rival Turf as a kid so I don’t have the same nostalgia for the bigger ones. In recent years, I’ve tried Streets of Rage 4 and both River City Girls games and had a lot of fun with them.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Rival Turf

So, Jaleco/City Connection Inc. for Smash, anyone?

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

The classic River City games are pretty fun and very iconic for their time, I would place the ones I've played on par with Streets of Rage 2 which still holds up. I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on classic beat em ups, let alone the later River City games, but out of the ones I've played Aliens VS Predator and Golden Axe: Revenge of Death Adder stood out to me the most. For me though River City Girls kinda feels like a lot of style over substance, the combat is fine but I don't think it feels deep enough to carry through the game, and the aesthetic and tone is just a bit overbearing for me as it progresses. It's a well made game but it definitely didn't capture me like it seems to for a lot of people.

Kunio in Smash would be a lot of fun for sure.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Battletoads is an interesting beast in that many games in the series were in some ways variations of that original NES release with the Double Dragon crossover and the (sadly less well known) arcade game being the two games that actually shook up the experience. I'd love a Battletoads inclusion with aesthetics largely based on Battlemaniacs and the arcade release as they have some of the best looks for the characters proper.

The 2020 game has some merit design wise, but I'd say the 90s takes would be more natural fits for Smash.

 

[Gengar84]

Battletoads is an interesting beast in that many games in the series were in some ways variations of that original NES release with the Double Dragon crossover and the (sadly less well known) arcade game being the two games that actually shook up the experience. I'd love a Battletoads inclusion with aesthetics largely based on Battlemaniacs and the arcade release as they have some of the best look, for the characters proper.

The 2020 game has some merit design wise, but I'd say the 90s takes would be more natural fits for Smash.

Yeah, Battlemaniacs is easily my favorite design for the characters. I do like Zitz’s teal color scheme he’s had since Battletoads & Double Dragon though. I feel like the reboot tried too hard to emulate the Rise of the TMNT cartoon, which was a pretty questionable decision considering that cartoon didn’t go over too well either. I watched Rise last year and it was surprisingly decent for what it was trying to be and I found the movie genuinely enjoyable.

I do feel like the reboot Battletoads lost some of the edge that made them cool in pursuit of trying to conform with modern cartoon trends. The humor of the reboot is also very hit or miss. I do think the gameplay is actually quite good though and it’s probably a step up from the classic games in that department at least. Still really happy that Battletoads even got a game at all even if it wasn’t everything I was hoping for.

 

[Ivander]

since we are on MvC2... SonSon, Amigo or Ruby? Would make good picks no for Smash?

Still think Sakurai should do something like this for the surprise character and the laughs.

How about we put....This Goku in Smash!

We make Nintendo's Goku an Echo Fighter of Goku!

Then make Goku III an Alternate Costume for Goku!

So we get Three Gokus in Smash Bros!

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Yeah, Battlemaniacs is easily my favorite design for the characters. I feel like the reboot tried too hard to emulate the Rise of the TMNT cartoon, which was a pretty questionable decision considering that cartoon didn’t go over too well either. I watched Rise last year and it was surprisingly decent for what it was trying to be and I found the movie genuinely enjoyable.

I do feel like the reboot Battletoads lost some of the edge that made them cool in pursuit of trying to conform with modern cartoon trends. The humor of the reboot is also very hit or miss. I do think the gameplay is actually quite good though and it’s probably a step up from the classic games in that department at least. Still really happy that Battletoads even got a game at all even if it wasn’t everything I was hoping for.

The reboot suffers a bit from trying to go too broad for laughs and seemingly being afraid of just embracing the premise of the franchise. A game that played the concept pretty straight and keeping any winking to the audience or excess wackiness to a minimum probably would have made for a stronger result. Streets of Rage 4 is a good comparison as it has a few elements which could be taken as absurd, but it balances taking just enough parts seriously while still having fun that it makes for a game with broader appeal. It probably didn't help that Shredder's Revenge came out some time after and arguably was a better model of doing a cartoonish beat em up while not going overboard with it.

 

[ninjahmos]

I know it'll probably never happen, but I still think Haggar would be pretty cool, especially so I can hear music from the Final Fight series and other Capcom beat 'em ups.

I'd also love to see Axel and/or Blaze. The Streets of Rage series' music is just too good to pass up.

EDIT: Oh, and I'd still love to see Metro City in Smash, but that's about as likely as Haggar in Smash.

 

[Gengar84]

I know it'll probably never happen, but I still think Haggar would be pretty cool, especially so I can hear music from the Final Fight series and other Capcom beat 'em ups.

I'd also love to see Axel and/or Blaze. The Streets of Rage series' music is just too good to pass up.

EDIT: Oh, and I'd still love to see Metro City in Smash, but that's about as likely as Haggar in Smash.

I’m surprised Haggar hasn’t been a guest in Street Fighter yet when other characters from the series have. When I think Final Fight, Haggar’s the first character that comes to my mind. Between Axel and Blaze, I’d personally go with Blaze mostly because Smash could use more female fighters. A female brawler like Blaze or Tifa would be pretty cool to see in Smash. I’ve only played Streets of Rage 4 and my favorite character was Estelle but I get the impression that she’s more of a minor character specifically made for that game.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I’m surprised Haggar hasn’t been a guest in Street Fighter yet when other characters from the series have. When I think Final Fight, Haggar’s the first character that comes to my mind. Between Axel and Blaze, I’d personally go with Blaze mostly because Smash could use more female fighters. A female brawler like Blaze or Tifa would be pretty cool to see in Smash. I’ve only played Streets of Rage 4 and my favorite character was Estelle but I get the impression that she’s more of a minor character specifically made for that game.

The fact that there's an area in Street fighter 6 called the Mike Haggar memorial implies he died sometime after 5.

idk i havent paid attention to the plot to assume otherwise.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Quoting @SnakeFighter64 in the Social Thread

The term platform fighter is better because smash clone has a negative connotation.

There's also a decent amount of problems with genre names like Metroidvania, Doom Clone, Rougelike, Soulslike etc. in that as the genre's definition shifts, the name becomes less and less accurate, among other things.

 

[ninjahmos]

I still think a remix of Jacky's Theme (VF1), if Akira gets into Smash, would be awesome, as well as a remix of Ride The Tiger.

 

[Gengar84]

I think it would be cool if they added a voice line when selecting the character in the next Smash. For example, after the announcer says “Mario!”, Mario would say “Let’s a Go!”. That would be another cool way to help the characters show off their personalities.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I think it would be cool if they added a voice line when selecting the character in the next Smash. For example, after the announcer says “Mario!”, Mario would say “Let’s a Go!”. That would be another cool way to help the characters show off their personalities.

Brawl had that if you were playing on a Wiimote. It was great.

Unless your Sonic in which case all you get is the ring sound effect

 

[HyperSomari64]

The term platform fighter is better because smash clone has a negative connotation.

There's also a decent amount of problems with genre names like Metroidvania, Doom Clone, Rougelike, Soulslike etc. in that as the genre's definition shifts, the name becomes less and less accurate, among other things.

Yeah, we should learn portmanteaus like Metroidvania and Soulsborne and create new genre portmanteaus

• Pizzablast (Pizza Tower + Antonblast): Wario Land-like platformers
• Half-Lo (Half-Life + Halo): Late 90s-Early 2000s first person shooters

 

[Gengar84]

Brawl had that if you were playing on a Wiimote. It was great.

Unless your Sonic in which case all you get is the ring sound effect

Oh that’s cool. I always played with a GameCube controller so I never heard those lines. I wish they’d bring the feature back and just play it through the normal speakers. I’d also love it if every character had some kind of intro line against a few specific other characters just to play into the whole crossover theme. Right now, the characters feel so disconnected.

 

[ninjahmos]

Here's another song I'd like to hear if Shadow gets in:

 

[Slime Scholar]

The term platform fighter is better because smash clone has a negative connotation.

There's also a decent amount of problems with genre names like Metroidvania, Doom Clone, Rougelike, Soulslike etc. in that as the genre's definition shifts, the name becomes less and less accurate, among other things.

This strikes me as being a little overly charitable when you'd still describe most of these other platform fighters to someone who hasn't played them as "it's like Smash, but..."

It's like Smash but with Warner Bros. characters.
It's like Smash but with Nickelodeon characters.
It's like Smash but everyone's a furry.

Some of these games are fine in their own right but if the platform fighter genre is truly a genre and not a series of Smash clones with mostly niche appeal, then you'd think at least one of them would stand on its own. By contrast, FPS games today aren't called "Doom Clones" because they aren't still copying the original Doom's homework (or Wolfenstein's homework, really)-- we've had Half-Life, Quake, Goldeneye, Bioshock, Call of Duty, Team Fortress, Overwatch, Counter Strike and many more games and series with their own legacies.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's like Smash but everyone's a furry.

I don't think this is a fair comparison for Rivals of Aether. That game actually does stand out with it's original cast and mechanics.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

This strikes me as being a little overly charitable when you'd still describe most of these other platform fighters to someone who hasn't played them as "it's like Smash, but..."

It's like Smash but with Warner Bros. characters.
It's like Smash but with Nickelodeon characters.
It's like Smash but everyone's a furry.

Some of these games are fine in their own right but if the platform fighter genre is truly a genre and not a series of Smash clones with mostly niche appeal, then you'd think at least one of them would stand on its own. By contrast, FPS games today aren't called "Doom Clones" because they aren't still copying the original Doom's homework (or Wolfenstein's homework, really)-- we've had Half-Life, Quake, Goldeneye, Bioshock, Call of Duty, Team Fortress, Overwatch, Counter Strike and many more games and series with their own legacies.

I mean...kind of, but not really?

To be fair, fighting games are one of the most rigidly defined genres to the point where if you can't say "it's like Street Fighter" then it's probably from a subgenre. In that sense, the issue I brought up isn't as likely to come into play as easily or often with platform fighters specifically. Platform fighters are also a niche subgenre within a niche genre who's parent is the biggest gaming crossover of all time, so it's pretty difficult to actually break into the mainstream with a game like that. Rivals of Aether seems to be making a pretty decent attempt, and Multiversus might have even succeeded if Warner Bros. didn't shoot itself in the head with its scummy buisness practices and overall terrible handling of the game's feel and balance. Come to think of it, Brawlhalla also seems to be pretty popular, just not with Smash fans. I don't know nearly as much about that one though.

If you were to actually look at what they're offering though, I think there are quite a few examples of games that set themselves apart from Smash Bros. For example, PlayStation All Stars: Battle Royale's kill super mechanic was confusing and needed a bit more time in the oven, but it changed the entire objective of the game due to not being based on ring-outs. It also had a sort of family movie action flic kind of tone with stages often having a more serious or silly vibe being invaded by another game with the opposite vibe. One minute you're being attacked by Hades, and the next a bunch of dancing Unown have killed him and are trying to kill you too. Rivals of Aether sets itself apart with its fantasy aesthetic, elemental themeing, and it's character designs that make good use of that themeing to center all of its characters around a core mechanic that makes them stand out from other characters in the genre (kinda like BlazBlue).

And yeah, Doom clone has been dropped for the reasons we both described, it's not the case for every genre. Roguelikes for example have branched out extremely far, getting fused with pretty much every other genre under the sun. Slay the Spire is very little like Dead Cells is very little like Hades, and none of them are particularly like Rogue, but they're all considered Roguelikes due to their use of procedural generation and the gameplay loop of starting with very little, and building up a working strategy, dying, and repeating the process over again.

All in all language is kinda weird and what sticks can be a bit random, but certain names are better than others when it comes to communication, and in this case, I think naming a genre after a specific game can cause problems.

Also I don't think I've ever seen anyone non-jokingly refer to Rivals of Aether as "Furry Smash Bros."

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

And Slap City is Smash but with funny swole fish.


I know that he's in Fraymakers too, shut up

 

[Arcanir]

This strikes me as being a little overly charitable when you'd still describe most of these other platform fighters to someone who hasn't played them as "it's like Smash, but..."

It's like Smash but with Warner Bros. characters.
It's like Smash but with Nickelodeon characters.
It's like Smash but everyone's a furry.

Some of these games are fine in their own right but if the platform fighter genre is truly a genre and not a series of Smash clones with mostly niche appeal, then you'd think at least one of them would stand on its own. By contrast, FPS games today aren't called "Doom Clones" because they aren't still copying the original Doom's homework (or Wolfenstein's homework, really)-- we've had Half-Life, Quake, Goldeneye, Bioshock, Call of Duty, Team Fortress, Overwatch, Counter Strike and many more games and series with their own legacies.

I have to be honest, this post feels a little disingenuous. Your statement on Rivals (or at least I assume that's what you're talking about) in particular feels pretty superficial since as said before the game does a lot to stand out from Smash in its mechanics and characters, giving both areas a lot of work to flesh them out and stand on their own even when taking cues (ex. 2's pummel mechanic, which is done in a very unique way that plays into each character and encourages interaction from both players outside of just mashing the button).

 

[Kirbeh]

Brawl had that if you were playing on a Wiimote. It was great.

Unless your Sonic in which case all you get is the ring sound effect

Add Jacky from Virtua Fighter and bring back controller sounds.

I wanna hear a distorted "YeeAhhH!!" come out of the Switch 2 joycons.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Brawl had that if you were playing on a Wiimote. It was great.

Unless your Sonic in which case all you get is the ring sound effect

Then there is Project M/Plus where Roy had a sword slash while Mewtwo had its video game voice clip. Also Failure older versions. Not sure about Knuckles.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Multiversus feels super different from Smash for a variety of reasons (such as aerial attacks continuing when hitting the ground instead of canceling into a landing lag animation, recovery being performed by climbing the wall of the stage, moves frequently causing status effects and/or having cooldowns, and Dodge Attacking being an easy to use means of performing lunging attacks on both the ground on in the air at the cost of a dodge meter resource that also acts as your shield health) but it’d be kind of hard to describe how that makes the game interesting to more casual players who aren’t deep in platform fighter mechanics. Hence, the “Smash but WB” description even though the game is more than that.

 

[Slime Scholar]

I had a feeling that this was going to be the least popular thing I've ever said on this forum, and that's fair, but I wanted to clarify something before I address any other point that's been made:

Also I don't think I've ever seen anyone non-jokingly refer to Rivals of Aether as "Furry Smash Bros."

I did not call Rivals of Aether "furry Smash Bros." I am not saying it doesn't have a single original idea going on, nor was I trying to put the game down in any way other than saying that, yes, I view it as a Smash clone. What I said was that if you were trying to describe the game to somebody who's never heard of it, you would most likely start off with some variation of "it's like Smash but..." because many of its core gameplay ideas, such as your accrued damage being represented as a percentage that makes it easier to knock you into a blast zone, is taken directly from Smash Bros.

And these mechanics didn't become ubiquitous across many, many games like what happened across FPS games, Metroidvanias, or Roguelikes/Roguelites. Which is part of my point; I don't know how many games out there belong to the platform fighter genre, but I'd wager that the actual official Smash Bros. games make up a relatively large percentage of them.

If you were to actually look at what they're offering though, I think there are quite a few examples of games that set themselves apart from Smash Bros. For example, PlayStation All Stars: Battle Royale's kill super mechanic was confusing and needed a bit more time in the oven, but it changed the entire objective of the game due to not being based on ring-outs. It also had a sort of family movie action flic kind of tone with stages often having a more serious or silly vibe being invaded by another game with the opposite vibe. One minute you're being attacked by Hades, and the next a bunch of dancing Unown have killed him and are trying to kill you too.

You know, this is actually the reason I didn't say "it's like Smash but with Sony characters." PSABR is a low-hanging fruit because it's so half-baked, but it doesn't lift the Smash ruleset wholesale-- I couldn't reasonably call it a Smash clone at all.

And yeah, Doom clone has been dropped for the reasons we both described, it's not the case for every genre. Roguelikes for example have branched out extremely far, getting fused with pretty much every other genre under the sun. Slay the Spire is very little like Dead Cells is very little like Hades, and none of them are particularly like Rogue, but they're all considered Roguelikes due to their use of procedural generation and the gameplay loop of starting with very little, and building up a working strategy, dying, and repeating the process over again.

All in all language is kinda weird and what sticks can be a bit random, but certain names are better than others when it comes to communication, and in this case, I think naming a genre after a specific game can cause problems.

Roguelikes have definitely branched out a lot like you said, but I think the label is actually still helpful because even if games like Hades and The Binding of Isaac and Spelunky couldn't be more wildly disparate in how they play, people understand what's meant by "roguelike mechanics."

I guess that's kind of a utilitarian way of looking at it, but I think as long as people get what you mean, the genre name is fine- even if it's less than ideal.

I don't think this is a fair comparison for Rivals of Aether. That game actually does stand out with it's original cast and mechanics.

I have to be honest, this post feels a little disingenuous. Your statement on Rivals (or at least I assume that's what you're talking about) in particular feels pretty superficial since as said before the game does a lot to stand out from Smash in its mechanics and characters, giving both areas a lot of work to flesh them out and stand on their own even when taking cues (ex. 2's pummel mechanic, which is done in a very unique way that plays into each character and encourages interaction from both players outside of just mashing the button).

This might be hard to believe given the dismissive tone of my original post, but I genuinely didn't mean for it to sound so unflattering. Maybe "Smashlike" sounds less disparaging?

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

It reminds me of something I've thought about Metroidvanias, which is that too many of them are too beholden to Symphony of the Night and Super Metroid in particular. A lot of the genre still feels hung-up on what two (excellent to be clear) 90s games did, to the point it feels like in some regards the genre hasn't progressed since the 90s. You see Metroidvanias with innovative gameplay mechanics, like the recent Prince of Persia having the map photo feature, and Hollow Knight has a slightly more atypical structure and progression, but a lot of Metroidvanias coming out feel to me like they're doing their homework on Super Metroid, SOTN, and to a lesser extent Hollow Knight, and then not doing much beyond that. It's a shame because even back in the early 2000s Cave Story was doing a lot of interesting things with the genre.