Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Golden Icarus]

Stars would be gained by:

• Landing several attacks in a row without taking damage
• Landing sweetspots on certain attacks
• Punishing minus moves
• Parrying
• successfully landing Slip Counter on strong enough attacks
• Attacking a taunting opponent

Conversely, Stars would be lost by:

• Mac's shield breaking
• Taking enough damage
• Getting KO'd

Stars would be used to power up certain moves, namely his smash attacks, his neutral special and his up special. With Stars, his neutral special charges faster, and with three stars, it becomes the KO uppercut that everyone knows and loves. His up special gains much more distance with three stars as well.

As for his air game... he doesn't need to be completely helpless, is what I'm saying

This is exactly what I want to see. Little Mac should be a tactical “don’t get hit” character. The KO meter being a revenge system that rewards him for getting his ass kicked is the antithesis of Punch-Out’s gameplay, which should reward patience and defense and hard reads.

This might be less popular, but in exchange for an improved air game I would also want his super armor completely removed and maybe his overall knock-back and damage toned down as well. He shouldn’t feel like a wrecking ball, he should feel like a smaller guy who has to put in the work to get a KO.

In addition to these changes, now stay with me here — they should release a trailer for the next Smash. Have this trailer start with Little Mac roughing it up with Captain Falcon and Donkey Kong or whoever, and over the course of the trailer he becomes more and more accustomed to Smash’s gameplay with Doc Louis commenting “you’re getting the hang of this Mac!, looking like a pro up there, etc.” In the gameplay clips we clearly see an overhauled Mac with a significantly better recovery and even a lore explanation for how he’s improved through years of training in Smash.

Then…Mr. Sandman steps into the ring. Absolutely slaps the **** out of DK and Falcon. Sends them flying. Now it’s a 1v1 between Mac and Sandman. Sandman is extremely fast and hits like a truck. He has a counter, super armor and is essentially a semi-echo of Mac with a handful of his own unique moves. Mac ultimately bests him with his new star punch system, with Sandman‘s god awful recovery being his biggest setback since he hasn’t had a decade of Smashing to get the hang of aerial mechanics.

This is an idea I’ve been mulling over for a while. In my head this would basically be splitting Ultimate Little Mac into two characters. One that retains his design and the majority of his normals, but with a new gimmick and significantly altered stats. And then another character that retains his previous gameplay mechanics and stats, but on a bigger body with a brand new personality and a handful of unique moves.

It’s a bit of work, but as a Punch-Out enjoyer who loves the boxer archetype in fighting games, this is my dream scenario.

 

[Gengar84]

I’ve been thinking about fun things they could do for the next Smash beyond just the newcomers. One idea I had that I think could be cool is unlockable outfits. So here’s the basic idea I had in mind:

• You start with the entire roster unlocked for normal vs matches but you still unlock the characters in the story mode itself. I love working towards unlocking stuff in the game but a lot of people these days just want to play their favorite characters from the start. I think this could be a good compromise.
  
  
• Each character only starts with one default outfit but there is a new custom color editor that lets you make your own alts. Some things for third parties would have to be limited for licensing reasons like only being able to change Pac Man’s glove and shoe color.
  
  
• You can unlock several alternate model swap outfits for each character by doing a variety of things. First, you could simply buy some of them with coins you earn from vs matches and other things. Other outfits could be unlocked by completing that character’s classic mode, recruiting the character in the adventure mode, or various challenges like their Break the Targets stage.
  
  
• Each character would have a minimum of one alternate model swap outfit for completing their story mode. Other characters can have a lot more depending on how much material there is to pull from. These model swap outfits can also be color edited like the defaults.
  
  
• This one might be controversial so we don’t need to do it if it bothers people but I was thinking some of these model swaps could be like Alph and the Koopalings and be essentially different characters that share a moveset. The biggest example I can think of here are Morpho Knight and Galacta Knight could be Meta Knight alts. Dry Bowser and Dark Bowser could be fun Bowser alts. Obviously this wouldn’t work for a lot of things but it could be a fun option where it makes sense.

The main reason I’m thinking this is to give us some reason to keep playing the game beyond vs matches online all the time. It’s just fun to give us something to work for. Even though they could just give us all the alts from the start, this has its advantages like giving the game more replay value. It’s kind of like what they did with TMs in the recent Pokemon games. They used to be infinite use but now that you have to work for them, it gives you more to do in the game.

So what’s your opinion of this idea? Do you think the idea of unlockable alts is cool or would you rather just have everything unlocked from the start?

 

[Diddy Kong]

I like that concept idea of unlockable alternatives and they definitely should increase the max. I don't know for the love of God why they removed Fire Mario or black Yoshi, but those shouldn't have been even considered.

Alternative costumes also can be a little more, I dunno, true to source? What if I want Diddy with his cap turned backwards and shades ? Or DK with his DK Jr. attire ? Or Shulk as his older self? Or Samus with even more suit variations ? There's stuff to work with. I mean variations like classic Wario and Ike before and after his succesful bulk, those are great. Use them as base.

 

[Gengar84]

I like that concept idea of unlockable alternatives and they definitely should increase the max. I don't know for the love of God why they removed Fire Mario or black Yoshi, but those shouldn't have been even considered.

Alternative costumes also can be a little more, I dunno, true to source? What if I want Diddy with his cap turned backwards and shades ? Or DK with his DK Jr. attire ? Or Shulk as his older self? Or Samus with even more suit variations ? There's stuff to work with. I mean variations like classic Wario and Ike before and after his succesful bulk, those are great. Use them as base.

I totally agree. I think costumes are one area where Smash still has a ton of potential to grow. It would feel like such a missed opportunity not to at least give us adult Shulk as an alt. I’d also love to see the different incarnations of the Zelda cast. They did it for Hyrule Warriors and Link has classic costumes from different games in Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom so there’s precedent.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You start with the entire roster unlocked for normal vs matches but you still unlock the characters in the story mode itself. I love working towards unlocking stuff in the game but a lot of people these days just want to play their favorite characters from the start. I think this could be a good compromise.

It would be particularly useful for whatever’s left of the competitive scene when the game droos. No need to grind for unlocks and even fresh saves could be viably used for setups.

I like that idea.

Each character only starts with one default outfit but there is a new custom color editor that lets you make your own alts. Some things for third parties would have to be limited for licensing reasons like only being able to change Pac Man’s glove and shoe color.

Custom color editor is sick and SNK is absolutely proving it’s possible with City of the Wolves.

The problem lies in the fact that there is only ONE outfit for each character, which can make mirror matches very messy unless you actively go in the editor to make new alts.

Not everyone wants to mess with that kind of color editing but you would be forcing those who don’t like it to use it just so a ditto doesn’t look like your character is staring at a mirror.

Other fighting games with color editor have pre-built color palettes beyond the custom stuff, so I imagine Smash will actually be the same and give us at least 8 default colors to factor in 8-Player Smash.

You can unlock several alternate model swap outfits for each character by doing a variety of things. First, you could simply buy some of them with coins you earn from vs matches and other things. Other outfits could be unlocked by completing that character’s classic mode, recruiting the character in the adventure mode, or various challenges like their Break the Targets stage.

The sheer amount of work required for that makes me feel like that’s probably not going to happen since testing each individual outfit to make sure nothing’s wrong could absolutely eat time that would be better spent ironing other stuff about the game.

I would be fully down for that stuff to be DLC, even if my wallet would cry.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Shulk's regular and timeskip costumes even have different voice lines!

"I'm really feeling it!"
"I'm really feeling it."

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don't know for the love of God why they removed Fire Mario or black Yoshi

We MUST adhere to the 8 costume limit. A Smash fighter having 9 or 10 would destroy the universe. Please understand.

In all honesty they have a good reason to only make 8 for each fighter. These pre-renders:

Mean that any alt costume of any flavor, ranging from palette swaps to all-new models, takes at least 2 times the work that they need to, because not only do you have to recolor the in-game model's textures, you have to do the same to the pre-render model's. Or for model swaps, it means you have to make two models.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

We MUST adhere to the 8 costume limit. A Smash fighter having 9 or 10 would destroy the universe. Please understand.

So what you’re saying is the universe already blew up 16 years ago

 

[Guynamednelson]

So what you’re saying is the universe already blew up 16 years ago

Nope! Wario had 12. He saved the universe by not having exactly 9 or 10, like I said. Them's the rules.

 

[Ivander]

So what you’re saying is the universe already blew up 16 years ago

Then it blew up again 10 years ago.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

We MUST adhere to the 8 costume limit. A Smash fighter having 9 or 10 would destroy the universe. Please understand.

In all honesty they have a good reason to only make 8 for each fighter. These pre-renders:

Mean that any alt costume of any flavor, ranging from palette swaps to all-new models, takes at least 2 times the work that they need to, because not only do you have to recolor the in-game model's textures, you have to do the same to the pre-render model's. Or for model swaps, it means you have to make two models.

I'm not an expert, but I'm fairly certain it's possible for them to just make a render that they can color in real time. They'd pretty much have to do it if they were to add a color editor since it would be the only way for them to display the custom colors, but even disregarding that, I think it would be beneficial for them to do so since it would allow them to load in ~50 character renders instead of ~400 of them.

At least, it would have been beneficial for Ultimate.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Nope! Wario had 12. He saved the universe by not having exactly 9 or 10, like I said. Them's the rules.

Fair enough. Have a nice d-

 

[Ivander]

A Color editor would be great, although it might be difficult to implant in regards to 3rd Parties and Pokemon. But if they can get a color editor in, especially if usable with alternate outfits, it'd be awesome to see. And first thing I'd want to do would be to make a custom color scheme for every possible Character+Spirit combination from Ultimate.

I'm not an expert, but I'm fairly certain it's possible for them to just make a render that they can color in real time. They'd pretty much have to do it if they were to add a color editor since it would be the only way for them to display the custom colors, but even disregarding that, I think it would be beneficial for them to do so since it would allow them to load in ~50 character renders instead of ~400 of them.

At least, it would have been beneficial for Ultimate.

Probably the easiest way to pre-render custom colors would just be to bring back the 3D models on the character select screen like the first Smash Bros., so that custom colors can load in without needing a 2D render. And heck, Sakurai did mention how for Ultimate, he did initially want to bring back the 3D models on the character select screen like the first game, so it happening in a future game isn't impossible.

 

[RouffWestie]

I’ve been thinking about fun things they could do for the next Smash beyond just the newcomers. One idea I had that I think could be cool is unlockable outfits. So here’s the basic idea I had in mind:

• You start with the entire roster unlocked for normal vs matches but you still unlock the characters in the story mode itself. I love working towards unlocking stuff in the game but a lot of people these days just want to play their favorite characters from the start. I think this could be a good compromise.
  
  
• Each character only starts with one default outfit but there is a new custom color editor that lets you make your own alts. Some things for third parties would have to be limited for licensing reasons like only being able to change Pac Man’s glove and shoe color.
  
  
• You can unlock several alternate model swap outfits for each character by doing a variety of things. First, you could simply buy some of them with coins you earn from vs matches and other things. Other outfits could be unlocked by completing that character’s classic mode, recruiting the character in the adventure mode, or various challenges like their Break the Targets stage.
  
  
• Each character would have a minimum of one alternate model swap outfit for completing their story mode. Other characters can have a lot more depending on how much material there is to pull from. These model swap outfits can also be color edited like the defaults.
  
  
• This one might be controversial so we don’t need to do it if it bothers people but I was thinking some of these model swaps could be like Alph and the Koopalings and be essentially different characters that share a moveset. The biggest example I can think of here are Morpho Knight and Galacta Knight could be Meta Knight alts. Dry Bowser and Dark Bowser could be fun Bowser alts. Obviously this wouldn’t work for a lot of things but it could be a fun option where it makes sense.

The main reason I’m thinking this is to give us some reason to keep playing the game beyond vs matches online all the time. It’s just fun to give us something to work for. Even though they could just give us all the alts from the start, this has its advantages like giving the game more replay value. It’s kind of like what they did with TMs in the recent Pokemon games. They used to be infinite use but now that you have to work for them, it gives you more to do in the game.

So what’s your opinion of this idea? Do you think the idea of unlockable alts is cool or would you rather just have everything unlocked from the start?

This would be fine. Though honestly I would be content with them just porting the alts from Ultimate increasing the costume limit to 12.

Nope! Wario had 12. He saved the universe by not having exactly 9 or 10, like I said. Them's the rules.

See what a mean? If Wario's done it then you know it's the right choice.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Probably the easiest way to pre-render custom colors would just be to bring back the 3D models on the character select screen like the first Smash Bros., so that custom colors can load in without needing a 2D render. And heck, Sakurai did mention how for Ultimate, he did initially want to bring back the 3D models on the character select screen like the first game, so it happening in a future game isn't impossible.

It's what most traditional fighters nowadays do anyway, so they don't have the same problem Smash has with alternate costumes requiring both in-game and pre-render models/textures to be made.

...although in KoFXIV's case, it does have pre-renders used on the CSS, but they're made with the models that are actually seen in-game. I don't think Sakurai would be willing to do that unless the Switch 2 lets them have fighter models that are much, much higher-quality than 4/Ultimate's.

 

[ninjahmos]

I've said it before, but I'd also love more alternate costumes…but as long as Sakurai's in charge of Smash, that's probably not gonna happen.

 

[Kirbeh]

As cool as a color editor would be, I think TPC and some of the third parties kind of make that an impossibility like Ivander pointed out. If they were willing to exclude the characters they couldn't get the okay for then maybe but then you'd have people complaining about why a new feature excludes a portion of the roster.

For colors, I'd settle on just increasing the number of palettes, (though ideally, I'd want it to be doubled at minimum.) 12-16 colors per costume is what I would want.

If they did finally add more actual costumes, I'd want at least one per character in the base game (two for characters that have the precedent for it like Mario and Mac.) I really like Gengar84 's idea of having lots of unlockable costumes but I don't really see that happening. That seems like the sort of thing they'd save to sell as DLC (provided they actually choose to make more costumes in the first place.)

For as many characters as we have in Smash and with so many of them having lots of possible costume choices (especially so, thanks to mobile and Switch titles ) I genuinely want them to go crazy with it like gacha games. Without the actual gacha of course. Normal unlockables and DLC sales ( at hopefully lower prices than that of other games like SF6.)

 

[BuckleyTim]

I know dev resources aren't 1:1 in each area but I'd rather that dev time go to anything else besides more paid cosmetics that I'll most likely have no desire to use. This game and dlc was already expensive enough on top of the fact that neither parts ever go on sale... The only reason I tolerate the mii costume nickle and diming at all is because of the "new franchises as consolation prizes" aspect. If I had to pay even a buck or so to give Mario a costume he had as a bonus unlockable in Odyssey I'd be disappointed.

 

[ninjahmos]

I'm gonna do a mini moveset of another Capcom character…Akuma (Gouki in Japan).

B: Gou Hadoken ( + or )

• In air, this special becomes Zanku Hadoken

Side+B: Tatsumaki Zankukyaku ( + or )

Up+B: Gou Shoryuken ( + or )

Down+B: Hyakkishu ( + or ) (Followups vary)

• Hyakki Gozan (No Input)
• Hyakki Gosho (Tap )
• Hyakki Gohasetsu (Hold )
• Hyakki Gosen (Tap )
• Hyakki Gojin (Hold )
• Hyakki Gosai (Grab)
• Hyakki Gotsui ( or + Grab)
• Demon Swoop (Hold )
• Hyakki Goho ( + or )

Ashura Senku: or + +

Final Smash: Shun Goku Satsu ( + )/Messatsu Gohado/Tenma Gozanku

So what do you think?

 

[Ivander]

I've said it before, but I'd also love more alternate costumes…but as long as Sakurai's in charge of Smash, that's probably not gonna happen.

How is that a Sakurai issue? How is it Sakurai's fault that most characters don't have alternate costumes? Especially when a decent amount of base game characters do have alternate costumes/characters(20/23 if counting Mii Fighters which is almost 1/4 of the full cast of characters, including DLC) and 7 out of the 12 DLC characters had alternate costumes/characters?
If anything, the main issue might have been budget since alot of it undoubtedly went into "Everybody is Here" and the 3rd Party characters. The other issue was likely because for main characters, they'd have to make both the outfit and the high-definition render, while for Mii Fighters, they only had to worry about the outfits, since their roster renders are their 3D model.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

The entire multiverse when characters in an SSB game are given more than 8 alternate costumes again:

 

[Guynamednelson]

If anything, the main issue might have been budget since alot of it undoubtedly went into "Everybody is Here" and the 3rd Party characters. The other issue was likely because for main characters, they'd have to make both the outfit and the high-definition render, while for Mii Fighters, they only had to worry about the outfits, since their roster renders are their 3D model.

EIH wouldn't really be that much of a reason, given that part of the reason why it happened was that the Switch was close enough to the Wii U to warrant tweaking most of the Smash 4 assets over making all-new ones. That said, I have no idea if the models used for the pre-renders are the same ones they used for Smash 4's (except in cases like the Zelda or SF reps) or all-new ones.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

How is that a Sakurai issue? How is it Sakurai's fault that most characters don't have alternate costumes?

I thought it was clear that -insert personal grievance about the game- is ALWAYS Sakurai's fault?

 

[Wonder Smash]

the new generation are learning how forums work I see, this ain't like your reddits or The Site Formerly Known As Twitter

Your tone is not really helping things.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Your tone is not really helping things.

They're joking around? No harm done at all.

 

[Wonder Smash]

They're joking around? No harm done at all.

No need for excuses. People still need to know how they come off towards others.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Ashura Senku: or + +

These are the inputs for forward tilt/forward aerial and side special.

...or did you mean that A and B are being pressed at the same time? It still kind of conflicts with forward smash, but that is a lot more workable. I do think a more direct translation of the input would work a bit better, but I think it would work alright.

I also find it interesting that you included Demon Flip. How do you think that move would work mechanically?

 

[Ivander]

I thought it was clear that -insert personal grievance about the game- is ALWAYS Sakurai's fault?

Thanks Obama.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Thanks Obama.

Thanks Todd Howard.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

These are the inputs for forward tilt/forward aerial and side special.

...or did you mean that A and B are being pressed at the same time? It still kind of conflicts with forward smash, but that is a lot more workable. I do think a more direct translation of the input would work a bit better, but I think it would work alright.

I think the input is meant to be a nod to the Modern Input in SF6 so yes, I imagine it's side + A + B

The reason a direct translation of the classic input can't work is because the directional inputs are the same as Gou Shoryuken and pre-SF6 Demon Flip. We can always reverse it for Demon Flip like what happened with Terry's Crack Shoot (and doubling as an unintentional reference to Marvel 3 which did the exact same thing) but the command dash will have to make due without it.

SF6 Demon Flip is a quarter circle instead, which clashes with Gohado and Tatsu, so we can't give it its most recent input either. If Demon Flip gets in, it has to get 421 as its input (because no way 623 isn't Gou Shoryu).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think the input is meant to be a nod to the Modern Input in SF6 so yes, I imagine it's side + A + B

The reason a direct translation of the classic input can't work is because the directional inputs are the same as Gou Shoryuken and pre-SF6 Demon Flip. We can always reverse it for Demon Flip like what happened with Terry's Crack Shoot (and doubling as an unintentional reference to Marvel 3 which did the exact same thing) but the command dash will have to make due without it.

SF6 Demon Flip is a quarter circle instead, which clashes with Gohado and Tatsu, so we can't give it its most recent input either. If Demon Flip gets in, it has to get either 421 as its input (because no way 623 isn't Gou Shoryu).

The input I had found was something like P P 6PK. I didn't know it was simplified in Street Fighter 6.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The input I had found was something like P P 6PK. I didn't know it was simplified in Street Fighter 6.

....that's the Raging Demon input. The iconic Akuma super.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

....that's the Raging Demon input. The iconic Akuma super.

Yup. Nope. I can't read apparently.

What I had actually come up with was 623 + PK (or Smash, AB), which I suppose works alongside the DP motion for up special since it would require hitting one instead of both buttons, but for consistency reasons it's probably just as awkward as 6AB would be.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yup. Nope. I can't read apparently.

What I had actually come up with was 623 + PK (or Smash, AB), which I suppose works alongside the DP motion for up special since it would require hitting one instead of both buttons, but for consistency reasons it's probably just as awkward as 6AB would be.

Demon Flip in general would be awkward because most of the follow-ups rely on actually landing in the ground so how would the aerial Demon Flip work?

I can think of stuff but let's allow the one who started it with his moveset ideas a chance to figure something out.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Demon Flip in general would be awkward because most of the follow-ups rely on actually landing in the ground so how would the aerial Demon Flip work?

I can think of stuff but let's allow the one who started it with his moveset ideas a chance to figure something out.

To be clear Ashura Senkuu was the teleport. Me mentioning Demon Flip was changing the topic to a part of the post that I didn't quote...probably bad form on my part.

ninjoamos actually refrained from giving Demon Flip itself an input, which is also interesting, and it would be simpler considering it would involves a ton of different commands after the move starts, which is mostly unheard of in Super Smash Bros.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

To be clear Ashura Senkuu was the teleport. Me mentioning Demon Flip was changing the topic to a part of the post that I didn't quote...probably bad form on my part.

Yeah, it's gonna be really awkward to try and implement the actual input for Ashura Senkuu. Mainly because you need an input for both forward and backward and that will always clash with something else in a Smash moveset.

ninjoamos actually refrained from giving Demon Flip itself an input, which is also interesting, and it would be simpler considering it would involves a ton of different commands after the move starts, which is mostly unheard of in Super Smash Bros.

And for that one, I suggested a reverse of the input like how they did Terry's Crack Shoot.

 

[ninjahmos]

I added the input for Demon Flip. I wasn't sure if I should have added it or not initially, but I did.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I think a fun alternative input for Ashura Senkuu would be to use the shield button instead.

So 623 + shield for forward and 421 + shield for backward

It's got intangiblity so giving it the same button you can use for stuff like rolls feels pretty fitting.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think a fun alternative input for Ashura Senkuu would be to use the shield button instead.

So 623 + shield for forward and 421 + shield for backward

It's got intangiblity so giving it the same button you can use for stuff like rolls feels pretty fitting.

Oh my goodness. This is perfect.

 

[ninjahmos]

I think a fun alternative input for Ashura Senkuu would be to use the shield button instead.

So 623 + shield for forward and 421 + shield for backward

It's got intangiblity so giving it the same button you can use for stuff like rolls feels pretty fitting.

That…could actually work!

EDIT: I changed the input for Ashura Senku.