Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Which character(s) do you guys think deserves a rework the most, besides Ganondorf and Sonic?

Lucario for sure. Way too centralized around Aura especially now that it stacks with rage, feels floaty even if he actually isn't, doesn't feel like a Steel type though that's probably because it's the movie one that also didn't feel like that, and none of his moves really have any kind of oomph for me.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Lucario for sure. Way too centralized around Aura especially now that it stacks with rage, feels floaty even if he actually isn't, doesn't feel like a Steel type though that's probably because it's the movie one that also didn't feel like that, and none of his moves really have any kind of oomph for me.

+1ing this a million times

Lucario needs a desperate rework his toolkit is absolutely terrible and uninteresting in ultimate. I've deadass only fought 3 lucarios online/irl and Ive had over a thousand hours on this game since launch, and those three lucarios were around a bit closer to the release of the game, a year later after release and I didn't see any.

Make this character interesting! Make people want to pick him up!

 

[CommanderZaktan]

+1ing this a million times

Lucario needs a desperate rework his toolkit is absolutely terrible and uninteresting in ultimate. I've deadass only fought 3 lucarios online/irl and Ive had over a thousand hours on this game since launch, and those three lucarios were around a bit closer to the release of the game, a year later after release and I didn't see any.

Make this character interesting! Make people want to pick him up!

Bone Rush as a side special or side smash

 

[Guynamednelson]

Which character(s) do you guys think deserves a rework the most, besides Ganondorf and Sonic?

They should probably do...something about how Lucina's completely overshadowed Marth in the Ultimate meta.

 

[Laniv]

Here's an idea for a different sort of topic: what new neutral special should Peach be given? to free up toad just for fun

Heart Barrier: Peach summons two hearts on either side of her. If she is attacked during the moment, the hearts will burst to deal damage that knocks opponents away. If an item is thrown out her, she will automatically catch it to use for herself. This frees up Toad to join as a fighter as he should

Which character(s) do you guys think deserves a rework the most, besides Ganondorf and Sonic?

Little Mac holy mother of God Little Mac

I said before that Smash 4's newcomers suffer from prioritizing being unique over being fun, and no one gets it worse than Little Mac. This character is so polarized it's not even funny. Just scrap the "strong on the ground, weak in the air" routine and give him Stars based on how well he does in the fight.

 

[ninjahmos]

I've decided to make a mini moveset for Morrigan:

I think she would play similarly to Ryu & Ken and her normal attacks would obviously be taken from the Darkstalkers series, but I'm not gonna get into that. I'll just focus on the Specials. Her Fighter Ability could be the Special Meter from Darkstalkers, which could change the effect of each special she uses, and/or possibly her Dash.

B: Soul Fist ( + or )

Side+B: Valkyrie Turn ( + or ) (A to Cancel/B for Shell Kick)

Up+B: Shadow Blade ( + or )

Down+B: Vector Drain (Near Opponent + or )

Final Smash: Darkness Illusion/Finishing Shower

So what do you think?

 

[Will]

Little Mac holy mother of God Little Mac

I said before that Smash 4's newcomers suffer from prioritizing being unique over being fun, and no one gets it worse than Little Mac. This character is so polarized it's not even funny. Just scrap the "strong on the ground, weak in the air" routine and give him Stars based on how well he does in the fight.

What do you mean ”how well”? Are you asking to change him to a knowledge-check character with high execution skill needed to even gain Stars? Like, do Stars come from punishing minus moves? From hitting opponents out of their own moves similar to his games?

Furthermore, are you implying to actually give Mac an air game?

 

[ScrubReborn]

Here's an idea for a different sort of topic: what new neutral special should Peach be given? to free up toad just for fun

Make her use her umbrella as a blocker. Do the same thing for Daisy.

 

[Laniv]

What do you mean ”how well”? Are you asking to change him to a knowledge-check character with high execution skill needed to even gain Stars? Like, do Stars come from punishing minus moves? From hitting opponents out of their own moves similar to his games?

Furthermore, are you implying to actually give Mac an air game?

Stars would be gained by:

• Landing several attacks in a row without taking damage
• Landing sweetspots on certain attacks
• Punishing minus moves
• Parrying
• successfully landing Slip Counter on strong enough attacks
• Attacking a taunting opponent

Conversely, Stars would be lost by:

• Mac's shield breaking
• Taking enough damage
• Getting KO'd

Stars would be used to power up certain moves, namely his smash attacks, his neutral special and his up special. With Stars, his neutral special charges faster, and with three stars, it becomes the KO uppercut that everyone knows and loves. His up special gains much more distance with three stars as well.

As for his air game... he doesn't need to be completely helpless, is what I'm saying

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I really hope the Nintendo Switch 2 is announced in January like the original was for 2017 instead of this year.

January is always a very boring month with absolutely nothing going on. Let's spice things up!

The Switch was announced in October.

January is when they revealed a couple games including most of the launch year.

 

[Louie G.]

Furthermore, are you implying to actually give Mac an air game?

Well yeah, it’s one of the most fundamental elements of Smash’s gameplay. After two games it’s clear this isn’t working out.

Having an air game at all doesn’t mean having a good air game. Even remotely competent attacks would be a step up from having four useless aerials and one extremely circumstantial one. That doesn’t make Mac unique on its own - it just makes him bad. If a character’s most defining trait is their weakness, they are practically a joke character.

Kazuya does what Mac set out to do way better. He’s ground oriented, kind of awkward in the air, but he can still fend for himself if need be. I honestly am even a bit resentful that he ended up so good under a similar philosophy and Mac still remains as helpless as he is, lol.

 

[Schnee117]

Well yeah, it’s one of the most fundamental elements of Smash’s gameplay. After two games it’s clear this isn’t working out.

Having an air game at all doesn’t mean having a good air game. Even remotely competent attacks would be a step up from having four useless aerials and one extremely circumstantial one. That doesn’t make Mac unique on its own - it just makes him bad. If a character’s most defining trait is their weakness, they are practically a joke character.

Kazuya does what Mac set out to do way better. He’s ground oriented, kind of awkward in the air, but he can still fend for himself if need be. I honestly am even a bit resentful that he ended up so good under a similar philosophy and Mac still remains as helpless as he is, lol.

It's simple, we inject Mac with the Devil Gene

 

[ninjahmos]

I've mentioned Ridge Racer here before, but I kinda wanna hear Rio Hamamoto do a Smash remix of the Ridge Racer theme:

 

[Slime Scholar]

Little Mac holy mother of God Little Mac

I said before that Smash 4's newcomers suffer from prioritizing being unique over being fun, and no one gets it worse than Little Mac. This character is so polarized it's not even funny. Just scrap the "strong on the ground, weak in the air" routine and give him Stars based on how well he does in the fight.

Giving him the actual star punch would be great, but like you said, being terrible in the air needs to go.

I was so excited to play Little Mac (alongside Mega Man) in the lead up to Smash 4, but at this point I'm prepared to call him a failed experiment. Polarized character designs are fine, IMO, but not having an air game and having such a weak recovery is debilitatingly bad. Doesn't help that he's not fun to fight either.

 

[Garteam]

I'll believe Little Mac needs functional aerials when he's actually as powerful as he's intended to be on the ground. His frame data got nerfed going into Ultimate, KO punch is still wonky as hell, Straight Lunge is difficult to use at best, and (despite one of the most important grounded options in Smash,) his throws suck.

Kazuya needs aerials because his mobility is ass across the board. Little Mac's mobility isn't, but I will agree that movement is a more reasonable area to buff his air game. Double jump should continue to suck, but making his initial jump quite good would open some more options up and play into Little Mac being a realistic athlete. His aerial specials could also use a little more utility. I forget who pitched it, but making Little Mac's down special a backstep to return to the ground is great.

Also, for the love of God, put a reflector on Straight Lunge. Yes, I know Kazuya's is overtuned and I'm not saying Little Mac should get the same degree of reward, but Straight Lunge in particular is too situational for a character that's missing half of his kit and Mac-Zoner games aren't fun for anyone, currently.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

Stars would be gained by:

• Landing several attacks in a row without taking damage
• Landing sweetspots on certain attacks
• Punishing minus moves
• Parrying
• successfully landing Slip Counter on strong enough attacks
• Attacking a taunting opponent

Conversely, Stars would be lost by:

• Mac's shield breaking
• Taking enough damage
• Getting KO'd

Stars would be used to power up certain moves, namely his smash attacks, his neutral special and his up special. With Stars, his neutral special charges faster, and with three stars, it becomes the KO uppercut that everyone knows and loves. His up special gains much more distance with three stars as well.

As for his air game... he doesn't need to be completely helpless, is what I'm saying

The stars also help with his Up B recovery.

 

[ninjahmos]

I think I'll make a mini moveset for Demitri to compliment Morrigan's, because…why not? Like Morrigan, his Fighter Ability would be the Special Meter and/or Dash.

B: Chaos Flare ( + or )

Side+B: Demon Billion

Up+B: Demon Cradle ( + or )

Down+B: Bat Spin ( + or )

Negative Stolen: Near Opponent + or

Final Smash: Midnight Pleasure/Demon Blast

So what do you think?

 

[SPEN18]

Though Little Mac being good on the ground but weak in the air isn't even a key part of the character. So it's doubly bad between him being poorly executed and the concept not even fitting what a lot of Mac fans expected from the character.
So, just thinking aloud here, maybe they could just change Mac entirely and, if you really want to give the whole grounded fighter thing another go, you could try it with someone else. Though balancing a character with that gimmick is already pretty difficult just by the nature of the platform fighter, so there's a fair chance that another attempt would result in another oddly balanced fighter.
Maybe a better approach is to just make a fighter with many moves that interact with the terrain (like say Isaac would be one good fit for that, and you could also justify some pretty powerful throws with the Move hand stuff). So you're giving an incentive to remain on the ground in various scenarios, but that doesn't necessarily have to come with being completely inept in the air, again as long as the character incentivizes being grounded, perhaps at times when another character might prefer to go airborne. But maybe that would be tricky to design just as well.

 

[ninjahmos]

Yeah, Little Mac definitely needs a reworked moveset with new Specials and a 3-5 Star system. I think using Stars to do stronger Specials is actually a great concept for Mac, and his air game could use some work too.

 

[Will]

Stars would be gained by:

• Landing several attacks in a row without taking damage
• Landing sweetspots on certain attacks
• Punishing minus moves
• Parrying
• successfully landing Slip Counter on strong enough attacks
• Attacking a taunting opponent

Conversely, Stars would be lost by:

• Mac's shield breaking
• Taking enough damage
• Getting KO'd

Stars would be used to power up certain moves, namely his smash attacks, his neutral special and his up special. With Stars, his neutral special charges faster, and with three stars, it becomes the KO uppercut that everyone knows and loves. His up special gains much more distance with three stars as well.

Not a bad idea at all. Why not give all of his specials something special? I think varying levels of superarmor on his side special would strengthen his recovery game. You’re already sacrificing your star buff to gain neutral with the up special anyway.

 

[Opossum]

View attachment 396459

Not a bad idea at all. Why not give all of his specials something special? I think varying levels of superarmor on his side special would strengthen his recovery game. You’re already sacrificing your star buff to gain neutral with the up special anyway.

Aerial Side Special gets its refresh back at one star, at two stars it gets the base game 3DS air distance, and at three stars it gets armor.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I always think of Dr. House whenever I see DarthEnderX’s avatar. Not sure where either of those thoughts come from.

...because my avatar is Dr. House doing the Gendo Pose?

Which character(s) do you guys think deserves a rework the most, besides Ganondorf and Sonic?

Ganond-oh...um...

Little Mac.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Also, for the love of God, put a reflector on Straight Lunge. Yes, I know Kazuya's is overtuned and I'm not saying Little Mac should get the same degree of reward, but Straight Lunge in particular is too situational for a character that's missing half of his kit and Mac-Zoner games aren't fun for anyone, currently.

A reflector makes 0 sense on Straight Lunge, but ya know what I would like to see?

Jolt Haymaker actually having projectile invincibility. Like seriously, the move was advertised as Little Mac's answer to projectiles, but it doesn't work like that at all and is mainly used for mutually assured destruction off the side blast zones.

EDIT: Straight Lunge should be replaced with something that's actually useful though.

 

[Danielsiewert54]

Next Smash Speculation & Discussion


Hello and good day to you, fellow Smashers. This is to be the new home of general discussion relating to Smash speculation. The rules here are the same that can be found around the site (no spam, no trolling, no flaming, etc). Please refer or refresh yourself on the Smashboards Forum Rules before posting. Also, please familiarize yourselves with the Smashboards Diversity and Inclusivity Policy before posting; we will not hesitate to enforce these rules.

When posting, please be respectful of other people's opinions and theories. There is nothing wrong with disagreement and debate as long as it is held in some sort of civilized manner ie no attacks on character (poster or literal characters), no flaming, no trolling.

Just so we’re clear be respectful and be kind to one another we’re all fans who just want to hang out with other fans.

As always

Keep it clean

View attachment 335231

We should get AT LEAST one Sony rep (Crash does not count cause he is no longer owned by them)

 

[DarthEnderX]

Mac doesn't need a Star system. He uses the Power Bar system in 3 of his 5 games. And it's a much less fiddly gimmick.

He just needs better recovery. Or even just functioning recovery.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Ok, but why did you quote the OP from 2021?

 

[ninjahmos]

Ignore this post

 

[Diddy Kong]

Which character(s) do you guys think deserves a rework the most, besides Ganondorf and Sonic?

Literally them.

Also Mewtwo and Samus. But just a little. More oomph in their attacks, more raw power. Mewtwo needs a new Special at least for Down B, and Confusion is cute but why not Psychic or Psystrike or Psycho Cut or anything? Ranged psychic telekinesis command grabs that lead to combos and KOs, go crazy. It's Mewtwo. With Samus, why not Super Missiles and what not. Go crazy, it's Samus. Like ****.

I mean we have Mewtwo, Samus and Ganondorf on the roster. Fear, intimidation and raw power should ooze around them. Like, "**** it am Mewtwo I'll **** on your existence"- type of experience playing these characters.

Oh and Kirby needs some work. Donkey Kong too if they could just give him a barrel throw and make him more of a bruiser and grappler than ultra heavyweight. His size prevents him from doing what he does best currently.

 

[Schnee117]

the new generation are learning how forums work I see, this ain't like your reddits or The Site Formerly Known As Twitter

 

[Swamp Sensei]

We should get AT LEAST one Sony rep (Crash does not count cause he is no longer owned by them)

Welcome. Just know that quoting the OP is considered poor form.

It's better to join in the current page.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Edited the post a 1000 times already but, another character I feel needs a rework badly is Zelda. She's just never good, and Tears of the Kingdom and Echoes of Wisdom offer enough to make her a little different.

I agree with Little Mac too by the way.

 

[SharkLord]

Which character(s) do you guys think deserves a rework the most, besides Ganondorf and Sonic?

As hilarious as Hero is, the extreme emphasis on RNG is kinda baffling when you actually become familar with the series. The Dragon Quest menus aren't randomized like in Smash, and I believe some spells can't even be used by any Hero. It comes off as trying to give him a gimmick just for the sake of it, like Sakurai was worried he'd seem too generic compared to all the other swordfighters. The Critical Hits feel kinda unecessary too, especially when Hatchet Man just throws out a Crit on command anyways (Assuming it randomly pops up in time, but still)

 

[PLATINUM7]

As hilarious as Hero is, the extreme emphasis on RNG is kinda baffling when you actually become familar with the series. The Dragon Quest menus aren't randomized like in Smash, and I believe some spells can't even be used by any Hero. It comes off as trying to give him a gimmick just for the sake of it, like Sakurai was worried he'd seem too generic compared to all the other swordfighters. The Critical Hits feel kinda unecessary too, especially when Hatchet Man just throws out a Crit on command anyways (Assuming it randomly pops up in time, but still)

The random menus came across to me as just a way to jam in as many abilities as possible.

I couldn't tell off the top of my head if any of the spells aren't available to the hero class but I don't think it matters since Ness and Lucas also use abilities they can't learn in their games.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The random menus came across to me as just a way to jam in as many abilities as possible.

I couldn't tell off the top of my head if any of the spells aren't available to the hero class but I don't think it matters since Ness and Lucas also use abilities they can't learn in their games.

I think with Ness and Lucas the difference is that their forms of offensive PSI attacks aren't necessarily as easy to give form to compared to the offensive spells of Paula and Kumatora with straight up natural elements as fire, lightning and ice. That's just a thought I had about it anyway.

Hero could also just stick with the fire and lightning elements. Why not, that's basically the protagonist list of spells in Dragon Quest anyway. Granted I only played 1, 3 and 11 but still.

Nothing wrong with Hero if they'd do without these gimmicks by the way. I don't get the complaints about the swordfighters too much.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

The Switch was announced in October.

January is when they revealed a couple games including most of the launch year.

Well October has passed.

A reveal + presentation of games for launch year is a possible. Ideal even

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Well October has passed.

A reveal + presentation of games for launch year is a possible. Ideal even

One thing that should be noted is that Nintendo said information on the console will be shared before the end of the fiscal year. No word was said about releasing it before the end of the fiscal year.

They might not need to do the big launch lineup showcase ASAP if they know their console releases later. After all, the Switch Presentation from 2017 and the console's actual launch were merely two months apart, so information on it still felt fresh.

 

[Sucumbio]

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Garteam]

A reflector makes 0 sense on Straight Lunge

I'd agree with this point if some of the reflectors in Smash made any sense. Mario's Cape does not disintegrate when touching Samus' Charge Shot, but instead sends it back at her. Mewtwo's Confusion having reflector utility is not reflective () of how the move works in Pokemon. Kazuya and Min Min's kicks are easily the most non-sensical reflectors. Sakurai's philosophy on this stuff is gameplay utility > logic.

I will agree on making Jolt Haymaker work as its supposed to in terms of projectiles. Little Mac would ideally have multiple tools to deal with projectiles and having both a high-commitment reflector and low-commitment I-frames would help with that.

 

[chocolatejr9]

We should get AT LEAST one Sony rep (Crash does not count cause he is no longer owned by them)

First off, welcome to Smashboards!

Secondly, how would you feel if that Sony rep was Astro Bot?

 

[Ivander]

Mewtwo's Confusion having reflector utility is not reflective () of how the move works in Pokemon.

Confusion is more based around the Pokemon anime's use of it, when Sabrina's Kadabra used Confusion against Pikachu's electric attack and sent it back at Pikachu.