Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Toon Link stands out MORE than Young Link does though.

I mean...I suppose I'm not the best gauge of the community's perception of things, but from what I've seen Young (and adult) Link very much overshadow Toon Link in the context of Ultimate.

 

[osby]

Keep Pichu.

And add Raichu as an official echo fighter.

And then add Alolan Raichu as an echo of the echo.

And then add all the Pikachu clones.

Every chu is here.

Now you're speaking my language.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Keep Pichu.

And add Raichu as an official echo fighter.

And then add Alolan Raichu as an echo of the echo.

And then add all the Pikachu clones.

Every chu is here.

this but unironically although I'm not sure if animations made for Pikachu or Kanto Raichu will work for its Alolan form with the whole surfer thing going on, AFAIK it never runs or gets on all fours for anything

 

[fogbadge]

Personally I don’t see the cutting ZSS now that there are more smash games with her than without

 

[BritishGuy54]

Personally I don’t see the cutting ZSS now that there are more smash games with her than without

There are more Smash games with than without too.

 

[Ivander]

this but unironically although I'm not sure if animations made for Pikachu or Kanto Raichu will work for its Alolan form with the whole surfer thing going on, AFAIK it never runs or gets on all fours for anything

Doesn't Dark Samus have a different walking and running animation compared to Samus?

 

[fogbadge]

There are more Smash games with than without too.

yep so we’re probably stuck with him

 

[Opossum]

Personally I don’t see the cutting ZSS now that there are more smash games with her than without

I mean, by that definition these are the "cuttable" characters.



And at least to me, a lot of these make more sense to keep than some of the characters who aren't on this list. I can't in good conscience say that I think Zero Suit Samus inherently has better odds than all of these characters.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think the reality of it is that Zero Suit Samus could easily get back in due to legacy. It's a little shakey since she's not on the level of Fox, Captain Falcon, or Sheik, but she has made her mark on the franchise.

However, if there can only be two Metroid characters, she's really the only one you can justify cutting since the alternative is cutting one of the biggest villains in the Metroid series in favor of a roster consisting Samus, Samus, and Samus.

 

[ninjahmos]

If Smash ever gets a rhythm game rep, it might be a Rhythm Heaven character. But I still think a DDR (Dance Dance Revolution) character (Possibly Afro/Disco or Boldo) would be pretty cool.

Come to think of it, now I kinda wanna see Ulala (Space Channel 5) get into Smash (if they can include Mexican Flyer)

 

[Louie G.]

As an aside from the cut talk, I was finally able to sit down and make an updated lil visual of newcomers that I've been feeling for the next game. If you've been paying attention to some of my talking points over the last few months I don't think anyone here would be that surprising, but what would you guys think of this lineup? Pokemon withstanding, I'm not convinced the Pokemon we'll get next Smash even exists yet.

I'll try to place them in a greater 60ish roster context at some point but for now I'd rather people focus on what's here rather than what isn't - my slew of cuts is a conversation for another day I think (and I'm still working that out). I'll elaborate on things if anyone wants me to but this time didn't really feel like typing out all the redundant justification for some of the most obvious choices here (you know why Waluigi or Ring Fit are here, lol).

 

[fogbadge]

I mean, by that definition these are the "cuttable" characters.



And at least to me, a lot of these make more sense to keep than some of the characters who aren't on this list. I can't in good conscience say that I think Zero Suit Samus inherently has better odds than all of these characters.

you can't deny though smash priority is weird. after all how many people would have thought mewtwo had lower priority than the ice climbers and game and watch. sure I don't think all these characters would have a lower priority than ZSS, but I don't think all of them would be cut either. seniority must play a role of some kind

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

you can't deny though smash priority is weird. after all how many people would have thought mewtwo had lower priority than the ice climbers and game and watch. sure I don't think all these characters would have a lower priority than ZSS, but I don't think all of them would be cut either. seniority must play a role of some kind

It does, but it's also not the only thing at play here. It's impossible to know all of them, but from what Sakurai has said, variety is definitely one of them, which is probably why characters like Mr. Game & Watch and Ice Climbers exist in the first place, and also in part why they stick around.

 

[Louie G.]

I think seniority matters to a degree, but you gotta draw the line somewhere. To me Zero Suit Samus is where the idea of maintaining everything on the grounds of legacy starts to get a little ridiculous.

Maybe that's because of my own personal bias, but I look at characters like Sheik, Ice Climbers or Falco and see more inherent value in their "legacy" and the way their presence improves the roster dynamically, or has a significant community impact. But all these same, they're not safe either. If anyone who lasted more than one game after Melee or Brawl is automatically safe at this point then we may as well just not add anyone new ever because they'll just be phased back out in the next one for the same barebones legacy spread.

Bottom line is that seniority contributes to a character's popularity or legacy, but it just can't be considered a reliable saving grace anymore if we're talking about seriously plotting ahead and making significant sacrifices for new content, keeping things fresh etc.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

If Smash ever gets a rhythm game rep, it might be a Rhythm Heaven character. But I still think a DDR (Dance Dance Revolution) character (Possibly Afro/Disco or Boldo) would be pretty cool.

Come to think of it, now I kinda wanna see Ulala (Space Channel 5) get into Smash (if they can include Mexican Flyer)

You already know who I would love as rythm game rep

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Bottom line is that seniority contributes to a character's popularity or legacy, but it just can't be considered a reliable saving grace anymore if we're talking about seriously plotting ahead and making significant sacrifices for new content, keeping things fresh etc.

This is especially considering that we're going to start having too many characters that are non-negotiable to series representation that we really can't add all of them. My roster pretty much deleted every single tertiary pick and almost every single legacy pick and that's probably not going to be sustainable either.

 

[Gorgonzales]

As an aside from the cut talk, I was finally able to sit down and make an updated lil visual of newcomers that I've been feeling for the next game. If you've been paying attention to some of my talking points over the last few months I don't think anyone here would be that surprising, but what would you guys think of this lineup? Pokemon withstanding, I'm not convinced the Pokemon we'll get next Smash even exists yet.

View attachment 394731

I'll try to place them in a greater 60ish roster context at some point but for now I'd rather people focus on what's here rather than what isn't - my slew of cuts is a conversation for another day I think (and I'm still working that out). I'll elaborate on things if anyone wants me to but this time didn't really feel like typing out all the redundant justification for some of the most obvious choices here (you know why Waluigi or Ring Fit are here, lol).

Most of these are reasonable and I could see happening. The only outlier is Sidon, I can kind of see why he's there but Zelda has such a competitive waiting line that I guess any pick other than Skull Kid or maybe Midna will look weird (to me at least).

I'd like this lineup a lot, Oatchi and Waluigi alone would honestly just have me set.

 

[ScrubReborn]

The way I imagine seniority working is, seniority helps you against other veterans in a similar "weight class" as you but it won't let you cut the line to the next one. Take, say, . Maybe Falco's seniority/attendance record would give him a edge against like , , etc, but it won't let him cut ahead of a character like

 

[Louie G.]

Most of these are reasonable and I could see happening. The only outlier is Sidon, I can kind of see why he's there but Zelda has such a competitive waiting line that I guess any pick other than Skull Kid or maybe Midna will look weird (to me at least).

Part of me is inclined to try and work out a way to fit both an old school and new school Zelda newcomer in, because I think if any series warrants doubling up it's probably Zelda at this point. Lots of catching up to do and way too many great choices. So I can see us getting Skull Kid plus one Switch-era pick.

The reason I went with Sidon is just to further shoot for contemporary faces, he's been a slam dunk favorite among the community ever since his debut and he's managed to remain relevant across both key Zelda titles on the Switch. Theoretically you could swap him out for anyone else you like from BOTW or TOTK, but he's the one that makes the most sense to me right now. Seeing how massive these last two Zelda games have been and thinking about how Smash may seek to represent this significant series growth, I felt that they may find it more productive to think forward instead of backwards. And may feel like they can get away with something more subversive if fanservice is already being dealt with longstanding requests like Waluigi or Isaac.

That said, if the whole Triforce Trio is given a spiffy TOTK makeover and Ganondorf finally gets some moveset tweaks then I suppose they can better justify going for a legacy swing like Skull Kid or Midna instead. Right now for me it's just a matter of trying to scout out what the highest priority is, and in my mind Smash 6 is gonna be very BOTW and TOTK centric.

 

[NintenZ]

If Smash ever gets a rhythm game rep, it might be a Rhythm Heaven character. But I still think a DDR (Dance Dance Revolution) character (Possibly Afro/Disco or Boldo) would be pretty cool.

Come to think of it, now I kinda wanna see Ulala (Space Channel 5) get into Smash (if they can include Mexican Flyer)

I have been summoned.

It’s their time.

 

[fogbadge]

It does, but it's also not the only thing at play here.

never said it was. just that it may be the saving grace for certain characters

 

[Guynamednelson]

Doesn't Dark Samus have a different walking and running animation compared to Samus?

Yeah but it wouldn't just be walking and running you have to change for Alolan Raichu, it's everything. Alolan Raichu is so devoted to standing, sitting, or laying on its tail that it doesn't get off of it even when taking damage or fainting.

And sure, Dark Samus has a lot of regular Samus's animations changed for her, but they're just slightly tweaked Samus animations whereas Alolan Raichu's surfer shtick would require more than slight tweaks.

 

[Louie G.]

after all how many people would have thought mewtwo had lower priority than the ice climbers and game and watch.

Probably nobody at the time given the lack of precedent, and to be fair we ARE breaching on unprecedented times once again. If we're losing as many characters as some of us fear we may be, then they might have to be making harder decisions than ever and cutting characters who otherwise hold the right credentials. Even by today's standards I think Mewtwo would be a somewhat surprising loss.

That said, I feel like after the dust has settled it's pretty clear why Mewtwo in particular was a lesser priority. Pokemon got a whopping four new characters (ft Pokemon Trainer) and the new blood was given the boost, so perhaps this is a kind of surprise we can see occur within bigger series that may experience significant growth like Mario or Zelda (or Pokemon again). Where meanwhile Smash has shown us that it likes to keep solo reps around and take more sacrifices among series that are not at a loss for content otherwise. Everyone else seems pretty self explanatory, and frankly I feel like we've been around the block to at least get the jist of this in a different way than we may have in 2007.

I don't deny the fact that Zero Suit Samus may be unexpectedly held in super high priority and snub out a number of characters who right now feel like safe bets. But I do think when assessing the roster at large, if you're hitting somewhere close to 20 cuts it probably wouldn't be much longer until Zero Suit Samus starts to teeter into that territory. Or maybe not. Ridley had better be a higher priority than ZSS, that's all I care about lol.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The tricky X factor will always be what new fighters might emerge for a series that would essentially lessen the blow of certain cuts. ZSS being gone would most definitely be felt, but it might be seen internally that the addition of a Raven Beak might effectively be seen as still showcasing Metroid (along with Samus, Ridley, & possibly Dark Samus).

Zelda I'd imagine could be the same way; whatever new inclusions (Midna, Skull Kid, Impa, etc) effectively ensuring that the hypothetical cuts (Young Link, Shiek) don't diminish the franchise's presence in Smash too much.

As far as potential rhythm fighters, I admit my real preference is for Amigo, if just because there's so much character to him and his design just makes him feel like a figure that would fit easily in Smash:

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Probably nobody at the time given the lack of precedent, and to be fair we ARE breaching on unprecedented times once again. If we're losing as many characters as some of us fear we may be, then they might have to be making harder decisions than ever and cutting characters who otherwise hold the right credentials. Even by today's standards I think Mewtwo would be a somewhat surprising loss.

I think this (the unprecedented times and hard decisions) is what makes next game so weird to me.

Outside of the obvious choices to cut like Pichu and Young Link (they were gone for like 17 years for a reason and I expect that absense to continue next game), I think the only character that would kind of surprise me if they were revealed during the hype cycle in a Dojo update is honestly Plant, and that's just because he's a mook rather than an established character.

I can see myself coming in here and typing "WHAT DO YOU MEAN PLANT IS IN BASE GAME" already lol

 

[chocolatejr9]

I have been summoned.

It’s their time.

Still baffled they added lore to Just Dance of all things (the Agent D twist threw me for a MASSIVE loop)...

 

[fogbadge]

if you're hitting somewhere close to 20 cuts it probably wouldn't be much longer until Zero Suit Samus starts to teeter into that territory

I don't see us hitting that many cuts

 

[WeirdChillFever]

As an aside from the cut talk, I was finally able to sit down and make an updated lil visual of newcomers that I've been feeling for the next game. If you've been paying attention to some of my talking points over the last few months I don't think anyone here would be that surprising, but what would you guys think of this lineup? Pokemon withstanding, I'm not convinced the Pokemon we'll get next Smash even exists yet.

View attachment 394731

I'll try to place them in a greater 60ish roster context at some point but for now I'd rather people focus on what's here rather than what isn't - my slew of cuts is a conversation for another day I think (and I'm still working that out). I'll elaborate on things if anyone wants me to but this time didn't really feel like typing out all the redundant justification for some of the most obvious choices here (you know why Waluigi or Ring Fit are here, lol).

Lot of things about this that I like (fellow Off The Hook enjoyer, Excitebiker advocate and Chun Li voucher here!) but I guess I have my work cut out for me for convincing you that Master Kohga is the one and only Wild duology character.

 

[Noipoi]

As an aside from the cut talk, I was finally able to sit down and make an updated lil visual of newcomers that I've been feeling for the next game. If you've been paying attention to some of my talking points over the last few months I don't think anyone here would be that surprising, but what would you guys think of this lineup? Pokemon withstanding, I'm not convinced the Pokemon we'll get next Smash even exists yet.

View attachment 394731

I'll try to place them in a greater 60ish roster context at some point but for now I'd rather people focus on what's here rather than what isn't - my slew of cuts is a conversation for another day I think (and I'm still working that out). I'll elaborate on things if anyone wants me to but this time didn't really feel like typing out all the redundant justification for some of the most obvious choices here (you know why Waluigi or Ring Fit are here, lol).

This is pretty solid, add in a Pokemon and it's probably close to what we'll get. Nothing I really have any complaints about, except I'd probably replace Tails with Shadow.

Or maybe have 'em both, Sonic can have two new characters. Damn.

 

[BritishGuy54]

So… what series do you all think will only gain characters, and not lose any in a transition to a new game?

 

[Louie G.]

I guess I have my work cut out for me for convincing you that Master Kohga is the one and only Wild duology character.

I’ve actually really liked this idea whenever it comes up, but I haven’t been totally sure what to make of it. Admittedly I’m not quite a Zelda expert so anyone can feel free to school me on my stance and have me change my mind. The Sidon slot is very very fluid, but he’s been growing on me. Honestly I just think it’d be dope to have a trident user.

Bottom line though, please feel free to keep making you case, I’d like to believe in Kohga.

Nothing I really have any complaints about, except I'd probably replace Tails with Shadow.

I’m like 50/50 on them at this point but yall have been pretty effective in convincing me toward a Shadow lean. Truth be told I’ve fought it for a while because I’d rather see the classic characters join in first, but it’s hard to deny that Shadow is on top of the world right now and likely is the most popular request of the bunch.

Getting to see these characters visually laid out, I did start to feel like it could use a bit more edge (no, I’m serious). It’s very colorful and fun as is and I think we could use at least one guy who really means business. Shadow’s personality would provide a really nice dynamic contrast among the bunch (and probably a really awesome high stakes trailer). So I think you may be right on this.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

but I guess I have my work cut out for me for convincing you that Master Kohga is the one and only Wild duology character.

You're going to kill them to death?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

As an aside from the cut talk, I was finally able to sit down and make an updated lil visual of newcomers that I've been feeling for the next game. If you've been paying attention to some of my talking points over the last few months I don't think anyone here would be that surprising, but what would you guys think of this lineup? Pokemon withstanding, I'm not convinced the Pokemon we'll get next Smash even exists yet.

View attachment 394731

I'll try to place them in a greater 60ish roster context at some point but for now I'd rather people focus on what's here rather than what isn't - my slew of cuts is a conversation for another day I think (and I'm still working that out). I'll elaborate on things if anyone wants me to but this time didn't really feel like typing out all the redundant justification for some of the most obvious choices here (you know why Waluigi or Ring Fit are here, lol).

I personally wouldn't be that excited over the lineup, but there's good diversity here. Isaac is my favorite addition, whereas Sidon is my least favorite, since I never liked the idea of singling out a specific champion/sage to make playable.

 

[Noipoi]

So… what series do you all think will only gain characters, and not lose any in a transition to a new game?

The Mother series will keep Ness and Lucas, and then get Sans.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

So… what series do you all think will only gain characters, and not lose any in a transition to a new game?

Kirby and Donkey Kong.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I'm not sure how likely Zero Suit Samus's return is right now. Regardless of how accurate or inaccurate her personality is to the Metroid games, she kind of feels like a major, established part of Samus at this point and unless they're going for a massive roster purge or tehy really want to prioritize some brand new characters, I can't really see her getting cut.

Some of her moves not being accurate to or directly based on any attacks from the games also doesn't necessarily mean much since Sheik, Captain Falcon and even the entire Starfox cast for the most part all primarily have moves that are based more on their character archetypes or what their vehicles are capable of doing. Outside of her laser gun and a handful of attacks, ZSS is mostly the same case.

 

[Louie G.]

So… what series do you all think will only gain characters, and not lose any in a transition to a new game?

Well, it's safe to say that the most well-off series like Mario, Pokemon, Fire Emblem and so forth will struggle to hold onto every character in transition. Probably Zelda as well, which honestly might be a strong contender for this if Young Link didn't exist. But he does, so...

The safest series in transition - outside of the ones with literally only one or maybe two characters - are IMO the "middleweights". These would be relatively active or evergreen IP sitting at around three characters, namely Kirby, Xenoblade and Donkey Kong. Every character here feels uniquely important and popular, in my opinion there isn’t really any fluff to do away with.

But the other side of this question, gaining characters. I think there’s a chance Kirby and Xenoblade do, but I’m not fully convinced. Definitely some of the strongest competitors here but I'm slightly dubious of Bandana Dee or Noah / Mio's odds of making it in...

Oh right, Animal Crossing. Yeah, I think AC is actually the most likely to fulfill this with Tom Nook, since I’d be hard pressed to see a series this successful and active lose its only two characters so far. Which will eventually put AC in that midweight sweetspot of three essential, not-going-anywhere characters.

 

[RodNutTakin]

As an aside from the cut talk, I was finally able to sit down and make an updated lil visual of newcomers that I've been feeling for the next game. If you've been paying attention to some of my talking points over the last few months I don't think anyone here would be that surprising, but what would you guys think of this lineup? Pokemon withstanding, I'm not convinced the Pokemon we'll get next Smash even exists yet.

View attachment 394731

I'll try to place them in a greater 60ish roster context at some point but for now I'd rather people focus on what's here rather than what isn't - my slew of cuts is a conversation for another day I think (and I'm still working that out). I'll elaborate on things if anyone wants me to but this time didn't really feel like typing out all the redundant justification for some of the most obvious choices here (you know why Waluigi or Ring Fit are here, lol).

I am honestly super skeptical about all but three/four of these to be honest.

 

[Louie G.]

I am honestly super skeptical about all but three/four of these to be honest.

Well, feel free to elaborate! I posted it to spur on a conversation, anyway.

 

[Perkilator]

So… what series do you all think will only gain characters, and not lose any in a transition to a new game?

Is it cheating to count series with only one playable character, like Pikmin and Sonic?