Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

I’m really surprised at how many third party characters Brawlhala was able to get. I always viewed Brawlhala as a smaller indie game but maybe I was mistaken. Some of the guests speak directly to me with WWE and TMNT, two of my favorite things in media. I wonder if Brawlhala is actually big enough to warrant consideration for a newcomer in Smash. That would be interesting to see.

 

[Louie G.]

I’ve said this before but, at least for me, a drastically smaller roster pretty much kills my hype and interest in speculating newcomers.

I think this is a valid perspective, although it provokes some interesting questions for me like trying to solve a puzzle. Which characters are worth adding where, even in a condensed roster, they don’t feel egregious or out of place? What kind of surprises do we see in a roster like this? I feel like you might focus more on bringing in new series, rather than replacing the inevitable characters you lose in the returning ones. Like, if we had to cut someone like Meta Knight (very extreme case) the idea of adding BWD admittedly no longer sits very well with me.

Personally I’d be discouraged too if we had to effectively start from scratch on someone like Ridley or saw smaller series treated as expendable like Little Mac. But I’ve been trying to crack the code on worthwhile newcomers who stride this line and feel like valuable assets whether we’re looking at a roster of 100 or 30.

Bottom line though, I’m trying not to fret the possibility of losing a bunch of fighters because in the context of speculation that’s all part of the greater mystery to solve for me. I look at this like its own game. All the characters are puzzle pieces to shuffle around and try to craft into the right answer. So I understand why it’s discouraging and there are certainly decisions that would make me upset, but that’s why I’m not bothered by discussing general cuts / potentially heavy losses.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Do you guys think we'll get King Dedede's new design in the next game? My guess would be no since his other design iterations have been largely ignored up until this point, but then again his other designs are just attempts of putting his regular design in 3D at the scale it needs to be for the Kirby series to varying levels of awkwardness. It's the first time he's got an actual new design direction since he was added to Super Smash Bros.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I’m really surprised at how many third party characters Brawlhala was able to get. I always viewed Brawlhala as a smaller indie game but maybe I was mistaken. Some of the guests speak directly to me with WWE and TMNT, two of my favorite things in media. I wonder if Brawlhala is actually big enough to warrant consideration for a newcomer in Smash. That would be interesting to see.

It helps that most of the guests are reskins of the base roster, no need to program or balance any new moves.

Rayman is the only exception, and he still gets reskinned into characters like Dhalsim who have stretchy limbs.

 

[Louie G.]

Do you guys think we'll get King Dedede's new design in the next game?

Probably not, particularly with Sakurai at the helm. This isn’t really even a “bias” thing either because I think it’d just be difficult to rework all the existing animations and expressions into this simpler rounder form. Outside of serviceable buffs I don’t think Dedede demands any significant rework.

As a Dedede main, as much as I enjoy them revisiting the 64-era design philosophy, I want them to stick with the more Super Star infused design we have. It’s the best for maximizing his expressiveness and still feels like the most efficient catch-all design for the King.

 

[BuckleyTim]

Discussing the roster size this time around just makes it feel like all of our expectations hinge solely on how many characters return, and honestly that feels detrimental to the individual identity of the next smash.

It's as if we kinda now expect the next smash to invalidate the previous one, like it's a longer-term version of a yearly sports game or so. Granted, Nintendo and the Smash Team is partially to blame for this- you can't buy previous entries that aren't Smash 64 anymore, and unlike most fighters Nintendo really won't let this back-catalog even get played at big tournaments. There's other factors like how Brawl just really isn't gucci competitively but even then, 4's identity at this point has become "the crucial parts were done twice as much in Ultimate- but there is a City Trial-like mode on the version that wasn't even used for tournaments after the console one came out".

And I suppose that's the reality of a crossover fighter going Everyone Is Here- now every previous game doesn't have unique "you can only play this character in this" aspects going for them, they're now a subset of Ultimate. Add on to how 3rd-party characters are treated less like guests and more like part of the family (see: banjo's trailer) and it leads to a lot of balls to juggle.

I think Marvel vs Capcom handles it really well in terms of roster identity at least- it seemed insane to leave Mega Man out of 3 and Tsukinoko vs Capcom but it allowed the focus to be put on Tron Bonne, Zero, and Roll respectively despite those limited resources. And honestly, in a fighting game era where characters over functions philosophy has led to both bison and heihachi returning from the dead to their respective series.... I'm strongly prefering new and weird choices over just playing the hits again ad infinitum. So if a "BWD over Meta Knight" situation presented itself in the next game... honestly, that's just fine considering we just got Meta Knight in Ult. Maybe the next game can be different enough in gameplay that I'd be wishing to see those who didn't make the cut in that fidelity, but as it stands the abscence and additions will go a long way towards giving not just the new game an identity of it's own, but Ultimate a retrospective identity to it's roster that isn't just "Yep it was all of them at the time- but Smash SUPER Ultimate 2 did all of that and more so it's in the same lot as 4 in that regard".

ninja edit:
though i don't think the roster will be anything less than 60-65 before dlc. If Bamco does anything with their rosters it's certainly quantity- asset reuse or no, there's an insane amount of characters in the new Dragon Ball Sparking Zero game.

double ninja edit:
i also forgot that mega man was skipped in SVC Chaos for the Mega Man Zero incarnation of Zero. Regardless of the quality of the gameplay you gotta admit that was awesome.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I’m really surprised at how many third party characters Brawlhala was able to get. I always viewed Brawlhala as a smaller indie game but maybe I was mistaken. Some of the guests speak directly to me with WWE and TMNT, two of my favorite things in media. I wonder if Brawlhala is actually big enough to warrant consideration for a newcomer in Smash. That would be interesting to see.

The really amazing thing is how they managaged to remake them in the style of game without them looking wrong.
And no, I don't think Brawlhalla X Super Smash Bros. will ever happen, since they are direct opponents, but I might be wrong. Crossovers are getting crazier and crazier.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

This is off topic, but I just found this series that tries to imagine what a Super Smash Bros. game would look like on the DS. It's really neat. The link here shows the diorama video, but he has videos that show off individual character models as well.

you can't buy previous entries that aren't Smash 64 anymore

You can buy 64?

 

[BuckleyTim]

You can buy 64?

oh wow i just remembered the eshops for previous consoles are all gone. Yeah, you can't even buy 64 now.

 

[Ivander]

oh wow i just remembered the eshops for previous consoles are all gone. Yeah, you can't even buy 64 now.

Was Smash Bros. even on the Wii U Virtual console? I know the Wii U VC had some games not on the Wii VC, like Earthbound, Donkey Kong 64 and Bomberman 64, but I don't think Smash Bros. was on the Wii U Virtual console.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Discussing the roster size this time around just makes it feel like all of our expectations hinge solely on how many characters return, and honestly that feels detrimental to the individual identity of the next smash.

You're not totally wrong. But the criptic words of Sakurai, "There won't be another Smash Bros. as big as Ultimate", caught everyone unprepred.
Since now Super Smash Bros. has always been upward in roster size. So it's hard to belive it won't happen this time around.
Yeah! It's creator himself has declared that, but it would not be the first time Sakurai contradicted himself, the guy is still a human at the end of the day, so the denial is not totally immotivated. But if this time he's saying the truth it means a lot of the characters will bet cut to make room for the newcomers, so people are comprensively concerned about the destiny of their favourite characters as much as of who will come next.

 

[ScrubReborn]

Was Smash Bros. even on the Wii U Virtual console? I know the Wii U VC had some games not on the Wii VC, like Earthbound, Donkey Kong 64 and Bomberman 64, but I don't think Smash Bros. was on the Wii U Virtual console.

It was on the OG Wii's VC.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

oh wow i just remembered the eshops for previous consoles are all gone. Yeah, you can't even buy 64 now.

Speaking of that:

Subliminal message or unfortunate coincidence?

 

[RileyXY1]

You're not totally wrong. But the criptic words of Sakurai, "There won't be another Smash Bros. as big as Ultimate", caught everyone unprepred.
Since now Super Smash Bros. has always been upward in roster size. So it's hard to belive it won't happen this time around.
Yeah! It's creator himself has declared that, but it would not be the first time Sakurai contradicted himself, the guy is still a human at the end of the day, so the denial is not totally immotivated. But if this time he's saying the truth it means a lot of the characters will bet cut to make room for the newcomers, so people are comprensively concerned about the destiny of their favourite characters as much as of who will come next.

I've accepted the fact that the next Smash game will for the first time ever have a smaller roster than its direct predecessor. And I'm fine with it.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I think this is a valid perspective, although it provokes some interesting questions for me like trying to solve a puzzle. Which characters are worth adding where, even in a condensed roster, they don’t feel egregious or out of place? What kind of surprises do we see in a roster like this? I feel like you might focus more on bringing in new series, rather than replacing the inevitable characters you lose in the returning ones. Like, if we had to cut someone like Meta Knight (very extreme case) the idea of adding BWD admittedly no longer sits very well with me.

Yeah, I think this is a trap a lot of those Reboot rosters fall into where they cut a bunch of characters but then add characters that only make sense in a roster that adds onto Ultimate’s (Noah & Mio, Meowscarada, BWD, Waluigi etc.). You’d need a new approach to the roster rather than gutting the innards and then putting a Waddle Dee-shaped band-aid on it.

 

[Louie G.]

Yeah, I think this is a trap a lot of those Reboot rosters fall into where they cut a bunch of characters but then add characters that only make sense in a roster that adds onto Ultimate’s (Noah & Mio, Meowscarada, BWD, Waluigi etc.). You’d need a new approach to the roster rather than gutting the innards and then putting a Waddle Dee-shaped band-aid on it.

I die a little inside when I see a roster suggest Raven Beak is a fulfilling replacement for Ridley.

Bonus points when their goal is to fill in modern Nintendo picks but they decide Isabelle of all characters is expendable, cut Min Min etc. Pick a path and stick to it. Many of these people don’t actually know what their end goal is. Always one step forward two steps back with these contemporary “reboots”.

 

[Gengar84]

I've accepted the fact that the next Smash game will for the first time ever have a smaller roster than its direct predecessor. And I'm fine with it.

For me, it depends on exactly who is cut and brought in rather than the overall roster number. If most of my favorites are cut and I don’t care about any of the newcomers, it’s going to be hard to get too excited for the game. On the other hand, if the cuts were characters I didn’t have too strong an attachment to and several newcomers clicked with me, I’d be fine with a smaller roster size. Either way, there’s nothing I can do about it so it’s pointless to get too hung up on it and complain. I’ll just probably play the game less and move onto something else faster than I normally would.

 

[MBRedboy31]

I have to admit, it’d be interesting to see a Smash game that nukes the roster. What kinds of content would they put in its place? There’s something kind of exciting about that.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I've accepted the fact that the next Smash game will for the first time ever have a smaller roster than its direct predecessor. And I'm fine with it.

But I bet it was not simple to cope with that. Correct me if I'm wrong.
With a smaller roster though, the game could be more rich in other departments, like the story mode for example.
Let's be honest: We all wish for another platforming quest like the Adventure Mode or The Subspace Emissary.

 

[Gengar84]

But I bet it was not simple to cope with that. Correct me if I'm wrong.
With a smaller roster though, the game could be more rich in other departments, like the story mode for example.
Let's be honest: We all wish for another platforming quest like the Adventure Mode or The Subspace Emissary.

I personally do but I know SSE was unpopular for a lot of people. I’m not sure whether bringing something like it back would be enough to make up for a much smaller roster. I think the mode still has a ton of potential so I’ll buy the next Smash for just that. A massively improved Stage Builder or character creator could help too.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Yeah, I think this is a trap a lot of those Reboot rosters fall into where they cut a bunch of characters but then add characters that only make sense in a roster that adds onto Ultimate’s (Noah & Mio, Meowscarada, BWD, Waluigi etc.). You’d need a new approach to the roster rather than gutting the innards and then putting a Waddle Dee-shaped band-aid on it.

That reminds me the history of Street Fighter Alpha/Zero: It started with a pretty small roster (and a character we only heard of before), but then it became bigger and bigger again.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah, I think this is a trap a lot of those Reboot rosters fall into where they cut a bunch of characters but then add characters that only make sense in a roster that adds onto Ultimate’s (Noah & Mio, Meowscarada, BWD, Waluigi etc.). You’d need a new approach to the roster rather than gutting the innards and then putting a Waddle Dee-shaped band-aid on it.

I feel like most of those are poor examples. Noah and/or Mio still make sense so long as Shulk is still there. Pokémon is going to get a bunch of cuts that sting, but due to the nature of how it handles its characters I don't think it would be that weird for it and Fire Emblem to start rotating out their veterans alongside their newcomers. Cutting...I dunno, Mewtwo, Greninja, and Incineroar for just Meowscarada would just be the beginning of that idea. Kirby probably won't receive any cuts unless space is in dire straights, but Bandana Waddle Dee should be fine as long as his king is still present. Waluigi really only needs Wario to still be on the roster since that's who he's associated with.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

You're not totally wrong. But the criptic words of Sakurai, "There won't be another Smash Bros. as big as Ultimate", caught everyone unprepred.

He never said that though...

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I personally do but I know SSE was unpopular for a lot of people. I’m not sure whether bringing something like it back would be enough to make up for a much smaller roster. I think the mode still has a ton of potential so I’ll buy the next Smash for just that. A massively improved Stage Builder or character creator could help too.

The reason some people don't like SSE is mainly its aesthethic: Washed down colors, pretty generic enviroments and made up minions instead of the ones of the many games.
SSE is the best story mode so far but at the same time it's a festival of missed opportunities, so I can understand the frustration of people.
They don't hate The Subspace Emissary for what it is but for what it could have been if they didn't decide to make it edgy and fitting for all the characters, expecially Snake.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I feel like most of those are poor examples. Noah and/or Mio still make sense so long as Shulk is still there. Pokémon is going to get a bunch of cuts that sting, but due to the nature of how it handles its characters I don't think it would be that weird for it and Fire Emblem to start rotating out their veterans alongside their newcomers. Cutting...I dunno, Mewtwo, Greninja, and Incineroar for just Meowscarada would just be the beginning of that idea. Kirby probably won't receive any cuts unless space is in dire straights, but Bandana Waddle Dee should be fine as long as his king is still present. Waluigi really only needs Wario to still be on the roster since that's who he's associated with.

Fair enough on Bandana Dee, and even then Rainbow Curse or whatever that game is called got away with making him the P2, but I’d argue Meowsc and Noah & Mio haven’t reached the height of popularity that the veterans have had and are brought up for being new. Say what you want about Pyra and Mythra, they’re more recognizeable even before their Smash appearance, and outside of being new Meowscarada has little inherent popularity like Lucario or Mewtwo did. A new Pokémon like Tinkaton or Ogerpon would be more suitable choices for that, but Meowscarada is sort of dependent on the more popular starters remaining in place. Waluigi could probably sneak in over Rosalina too, not sure about Bowser Jr. Mario is more prone to reaching its filler phase when Mario/Luigi/Peach and Bowser are accounted for anyway.

 

[ScrubReborn]

I have to admit, it’d be interesting to see a Smash game that nukes the roster. What kinds of content would they put in its place? There’s something kind of exciting about that.

If nothing else the reactions on social media bouta be a goldmine for content. I bet Smash 6's rollout's gon be hilarious

 

[Master Hero Sock-on-Rye]

All this talk of rebooting the Smash roster makes me want to bring up something I made for fun.

Super Smash Bros. Anime

INTRODUCTION Hello. The name is Mr. Idea Box, but you can call me anything you like. Like most Smash fans, I tend to overthink about roster speculation. “Who should be in? Who could get cut? Who should copy the Smash formula next?” Those kinds of questions and whatnot. But today, I want to thro...

docs.google.com

I'm not expecting to please everyone with this, but I do want to hear some feedback.

 

[Louie G.]

Bandana Waddle Dee should be fine as long as his king is still present.

Theoretically yeah, but I’m still unconvinced that he’d have any business being here over Meta Knight. He’s worked his way up to Kirby’s go-to sidekick but lacks the crucial role in any specific game to put him on the level of MK, a character who has been the focal point of various titles and… let’s be honest, is just too cool for school and feels more striking dynamically against the cast. BWD is consistently “there” but is hardly as actively involved, complex or plot relevant as DDD or MK.

Not that it’s very likely MK is on the chopping block anyway, but as a fan I would not feel satisfied with that switcheroo. In this context I think people overestimate the Dee just a tad.

Agree with you on Waluigi though - all you need are the other three plumbers for that to feel justified. When I was younger I thought he made sense as far back as Brawl.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Fair enough on Bandana Dee, and even then Rainbow Curse or whatever that game is called got away with making him the P2, but I’d argue Meowsc and Noah & Mio haven’t reached the height of popularity that the veterans have had and are brought up for being new. Say what you want about Pyra and Mythra, they’re more recognizeable even before their Smash appearance, and outside of being new Meowscarada has little inherent popularity like Lucario or Mewtwo did. A new Pokémon like Tinkaton or Ogerpon would be more suitable choices for that, but Meowscarada is sort of dependent on the more popular starters remaining in place. Waluigi could probably sneak in over Rosalina too, not sure about Bowser Jr. Mario is more prone to reaching its filler phase when Mario/Luigi/Peach and Bowser are accounted for anyway.

To be fair, I don't think we'll be seeing Mewoscarada, or any Pokémon from Pokémon Scarlet/Violet for that matter. I think it's going to be a more iconic/popular Pokémon like Eevee or Garchomp. It could even be our surprise character with a silly idea like Slowpoke or Bidoof or something.

Also, I was assuming Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser would still be there for brevity's sake + why wouldn't they be there.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

He never said that though...

Maybe I miswrote a word or two, that video is not simple to find back, but he left with that ambiguous message that hinted on a sequel.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

To be fair, I don't think we'll be seeing Mewoscarada, or any Pokémon from Pokémon Scarlet/Violet for that matter. I think it's going to be a more iconic/popular Pokémon like Eevee or Garchomp. It could even be our surprise character with a silly idea like Slowpoke or Bidoof or something.

Also, I was assuming Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser would still be there for brevity's sake + why wouldn't they be there.

It probably will be or should be a more legacied Pokémon, but my message was about fan rosters that cut down on characters but add newcomers as if it were business as usual.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It probably will be or should be a more legacied Pokémon, but my message was about fan rosters that cut down on characters but add newcomers as if it were business as usual.

Fair enough. I do agree that Meowscarada is kind of a blind trend following pick since smaller roster or no, we're not in the same situation that gave us Greninja and Incineroar.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I feel like most of those are poor examples. Noah and/or Mio still make sense so long as Shulk is still there. Pokémon is going to get a bunch of cuts that sting, but due to the nature of how it handles its characters I don't think it would be that weird for it and Fire Emblem to start rotating out their veterans alongside their newcomers. Cutting...I dunno, Mewtwo, Greninja, and Incineroar for just Meowscarada would just be the beginning of that idea. Kirby probably won't receive any cuts unless space is in dire straights, but Bandana Waddle Dee should be fine as long as his king is still present. Waluigi really only needs Wario to still be on the roster since that's who he's associated with.

Meawscarada looks like she was designed since the beginning to be ported in super Smash Bros. together Incineroar, so people can ship them as much as they shipped Kirby and Jigglypuff.
No, ****! Meowscarada and Incineroar are both anthro cats, they are both clearly inspired to two historical anime characters (Tiger Mask and Doronjo) and they have complementary colors.

 

[Louie G.]

Fair enough. I do agree that Meowscarada is kind of a blind trend following pick since smaller roster or no, we're not in the same situation that gave us Greninja and Incineroar.

Yeah, it’s plenty popular and would probably pan out if the timing was more on its side - I mean, moveset wise I think plant based magician is a compelling idea. But at this rate you have to assume they probably have a Gen 10 Pokemon on deck and Meowscarada will quickly be old news. Kind of a shame because I’ve come to like the thing.

Having skipped three generations now I think there’s a slight possibility we pull a random ‘Mon from Gen 8 or 9 on top of the obligatory new face but I’m not holding my breath really.

 

[Guynamednelson]

He never said that though...

Maybe I miswrote a word or two, that video is not simple to find back, but he left with that ambiguous message that hinted on a sequel.

Masahiro Sakurai on the future of Smash: ‘I’ve been doing too much of the work myself’

Where does Smash go from here?

www.theverge.com

"I think we’ve reached the limit, at least in terms of volume of content and fighters. Basically, if I were to have the opportunity to work on another Super Smash Bros. game, that means we would have to shrink the roster, but we need to think about whether fans would be pleased about that"

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Maybe I miswrote a word or two, that video is not simple to find back, but he left with that ambiguous message that hinted on a sequel.

He said that it's difficult to imagine an increase in size comparable to the previous one (from Smash 4 to Ultimate), but also that he can't rule anything out.
I don't know how the fanbase twisted that into "decrease in size".

 

[Guynamednelson]

He said that it's difficult to imagine an increase in size comparable to the previous one (from Smash 4 to Ultimate), but also that he can't rule anything out.
I don't know how the fanbase twisted that into "decrease in size".

I guess "but we need to think about whether fans would be pleased about that" from the quote I posted could be some hope for people who want EIH again, but I don't think the displeasure Sakurai's worried about is "wait, everyone coming back means EVERYONE? Not just the characters I like?" so much as it is not wanting a repeat of base SSBU's lack of non-clone newcomers.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I guess "but we need to think about whether fans would be pleased about that" from the quote I posted could be some hope for people who want EIH again, but I don't think the displeasure Sakurai's worried about is "wait, everyone coming back means EVERYONE? Not just the characters I like?" so much as it is not wanting a repeat of base SSBU's lack of non-clone newcomers.

I'm pretty sure it's him not being sure about the fans being pleased with a new game at the cost of the roster shrinking.
I think that that interview is older than the slightly more optimistic, probably worded during the game's development, YouTube quote though.

 

[Perkilator]

Do you guys think the next Smash should be co-developed by Nintendo EPD?

 

[RileyXY1]

Yeah, it’s plenty popular and would probably pan out if the timing was more on its side - I mean, moveset wise I think plant based magician is a compelling idea. But at this rate you have to assume they probably have a Gen 10 Pokemon on deck and Meowscarada will quickly be old news. Kind of a shame because I’ve come to like the thing.

Having skipped three generations now I think there’s a slight possibility we pull a random ‘Mon from Gen 8 or 9 on top of the obligatory new face but I’m not holding my breath really.

If we get a Gen 10 rep, it might have to be DLC this time rather than base game due to timing issues.