Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Ivander]

If we get a Mario Party stage, I hope for either Space Land, Waluigi's Island or King Bom-omb's Mine.

 

[Louie G.]

If not a board, perhaps there's even a distinct minigame that could operate as a gimmick stage not unlike Gamer. I have no specific ideas in mind, but just another angle you could take when representing Mario Party. Sometimes the minigames transport you into distinct areas or strange obstacle courses so maybe there are a couple that are memorable or distinct enough to be worthwhile. Just kinda blanking right now.

 

[TheQuester]

If not a board, perhaps there's even a distinct minigame that could operate as a gimmick stage not unlike Gamer. I have no specific ideas in mind, but just another angle you could take when representing Mario Party. Sometimes the minigames transport you into distinct areas or strange obstacle courses so maybe there are a couple that are memorable or distinct enough to be worthwhile. Just kinda blanking right now.

I always though this minigame would make for a unique stage...

 

[Stratos]

I know I'm exaggerating, but in terms of the roster of video game characters I want as newcomers to the Super Smash Bros. series, I went from 90 to 120. But I know not all of them will come, and some will never come as newcomers. Besides, I made it more like this to pass the time. Here is the roster with these characters:
View attachment 391357

Regarding the roster I made, I can almost imagine what Kirby would look like if he took their forms, but there are a few forms of some of these characters that I have a bit of a hard time (not completely) imagining what Kirby would look like. Here are the following:

Unicycle
Laboman
Hornet
Ando Kensaku
Suezo
Sukapon
F-Type
Diskun

 

[Gorgonzales]

If not a board, perhaps there's even a distinct minigame that could operate as a gimmick stage not unlike Gamer. I have no specific ideas in mind, but just another angle you could take when representing Mario Party. Sometimes the minigames transport you into distinct areas or strange obstacle courses so maybe there are a couple that are memorable or distinct enough to be worthwhile. Just kinda blanking right now.

Oh if we ever got a minigame stage it'd undoubtedly be Booksquirm.

It's got it all; it's a very popular minigame, has intuitive and understandable rules, has a very unique setting, and would work perfectly in a platform fighter (since the only difference between Mario Party and Smash Bros in this case is that you're allowed to throw hands with the other players). Although in Smash I think a page flattening you would equate to you becoming buried, instead of instant death for obvious reasons. The book would need to be a lot taller too so the stage isn't a walkoff where you can simply stand out of the reach of the falling pages, lol.

 

[RodNutTakin]

Alright, I think I've laid out my prediction for the next game as of today. I only got two responses for what I had asked of you guys, but that's alright. I actually ended up having to go a bit over the base total that both respondees gave me, only because it was extremely tough to justifiably remove characters after a certain threshold, and my total for base game veterans ended up hovering around the character count SSB4 had post-DLC, which I feel is an acceptable benchmark veteran-wise for Smash installments going forward. Without further ado, here's the lists of veterans, newcomers, and echoes that I have laid out for my prediction for the next Smash installment.

Base game veterans (56 characters):

Spoiler

1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Bowser Jr. (Koopalings as alts)
6. Wario
7. Yoshi
8. Donkey Kong
9. Diddy Kong
10. King K. Rool
11. Link
12. Zelda
13. Ganondorf
14. Samus
15. Ridley
16. Kirby
17. Meta Knight
18. King Dedede
19. Fox
20. Falco
21. Pikachu
22. Jigglypuff
23. Mewtwo
24. Lucario
25. Greninja
26. Inkling
27. Marth
28. Ike
29. Byleth
30. Olimar (Louie, Alph, P4 Rookie as alts)
31. Villager
32. Isabelle
33. Shulk
34. Pyra
35. Mythra (Her and Pyra are still a duo, I'm just following Ultimate's rules on this in terms of counting)
36. Min Min
37. Pit
38. Little Mac
39. Captain Falcon
40. Ness
41. Ice Climbers
42. Mr. Game & Watch
43. R.O.B.
44. Duck Hunt
45. Sonic
46. Bayonetta
47. Mega Man
48. Ryu
49. Pac-Man
50. Simon (Richter, Trevor, Julius as alts)
51. Snake
52. Cloud
53. Hero (Erdrick as the main costume, Luminary, Solo and Eight as alts)
54. Terry
55. Banjo & Kazooie
56. Steve (Alex, Zombie, Enderman as alts)

As a side note before I continue, I tend to not factor in the Mii Fighters in my predictions currently, as the jury's out on whether they'd still be important at all for the next system. Though I may go back and add them in, assuming backwards compatability is on the table for the next system.

Base game newcomers (12 characters):

Spoiler

1. Waluigi (Super Mario)
2. Impa (The Legend of Zelda)
3. Octoling (Splatoon)
4. A new, yet-to-be known Pokemon
5. Noah (Xenoblade)
6. Ring Fit Trainee (Ring Fit Adventure)
7. Conductor (Rhythm Heaven)
8. Officer Howard (Astral Chain)
9. A highly demanded Nintendo character (BWD, Isaac, an RPG Mario character etc)
10. The retro/surprise pick for this game
11. Bomberman
12. Zero (Mega Man X)

Echo fighters (7 characters):

Spoiler

=Returning echoes=
1. Daisy
2. Dark Samus
3. Lucina
4. Ken
=New echoes=
1. Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong)
2. Mio (Xenoblade)
3. Shadow (Sonic the Hedgehog)

Now here's where things get tricky/interesting; the subject of DLC. My prediction is that there will be two types of DLC releases concerning characters: Challenger Packs, which are essentially like the ones in Ultimate, and individual characters, which are cheaper and handled more like some of the DLC releases in 4. This system is all going off the assumption that this next game will put a larger emphasis on post-launch content compared to past titles (I personally predict at least three Fighter's Passes worth of brand new characters at minimum.)

This system is mainly to address the unique situation of veterans returning as DLC. The latter category would specifically be targeted towards Nintendo's missing characters that miss the boat, but a few special cases would be in the former category for reasons that should be apparent when I list them off.

Characters that'd be sold as singular downloads (10 characters):

Spoiler

1. Rosalina & Luma
2. Toon Link
3. Wolf
4. Pokemon Trainer
5. Incineroar
6. Roy
7. Robin
8. Lucas
9. Wii Fit Trainer
10. Palutena

Challenger Packs (ordered by how confident I am of them out of everyone I've listed)

Spoiler

1. A new FE Lord
2. Sephiroth (Final Fantasy VII)
3. Kazuya (Tekken)
4. Arle (Puyo Puyo)
5. Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden)
6. Character/protagonist from a to-be-revealed new Nintendo game (potentially two from this category)
7. Sora (Kingdom Hearts)
8. Sol Badguy (Guilty Gear)
9. Crash (Crash Bandicoot)
10. A new Atlus character (or Joker)
11. Dante/Phoenix Wright (Devil May Cry/Phoenix Wright) [I believe both are on equal footing currently]
12. Doomguy (Doom)
13. Crono (Chrono Trigger)
14. Adol (Ys)
15. The Tarnished (Elden Ring)
16. Tako (Parodius) [my personal shot in the dark prediction]

This is a non-exhaustive list and is the part most subject to change.

Feel free to give thoughts and feedback on my predictions here. I'm happy to explain my choices and decisions in as much detail as I can, if any of you wish to inquire. (also I may have made a goof up or two when posting this because this is a lot to double check so forgive me if any glaring oversights are present)

 

[NintenRob]

A Mario Party stage should be something like Wario Ware Inc, switches between multiple Mini games from throughout the series. So my vote for stage should be one of the side modes that focus on the MiniGames

 

[TheQuester]

I think we'll get a Ultimate Deluxe and not a Smash 6 at the end of the day because of fan demand of a Deluxe port.
But honestly speculating about Smash 6 is way more fun than speculating about a Deluxe port with an extra FP tbh, i was honestly already burned out of DLC speculation when Pyra/Mythra got released.
So yeah, basically, i think we'll get Ult Deluxe 99%, but a Smash 6 is more fun to talk about imo.

 

[DarthEnderX]

But honestly speculating about Smash 6 is way more fun than speculating about a Deluxe port with an extra FP tbh

What about a Deluxe port with an extra THREE FPs?

Gotta get to that 100th Fighter!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Spoiler: long

Fan demand for a Deluxe Port won't help on its own.

There has to be significantly bigger factors. Like licensing being much easier and cheap enough to justify it. If it's too expensive, or any company doesn't cooperate, it won't happen. They couldn't have licensed for two games anyway, since it at most could only license characters super at the end of the Pass(so only Pass 2 at the earliest) for a new game, which means multiple characters would need new deals. So that would account for maybe 3 at best. That means you still need to license all of Pass 1, the entire base game(including Spirits). And if the Switch successor is backwards compatible, which is fairly likely to begin with, that means you have everything else already as a game.

The sole reason why MK8 could even get an easy Deluxe is because it didn't deal with licensing in the way Smash does. It isn't full of 3rd party content, or anything that isn't hard owned by Nintendo(Pokemon in particular requires a lot of extra company stuff, due to different views on how they are used. I'm not sure if it's a licensing fee or just a time sink figuring things out, though. It may be both?)

Not to mention how much new base game content it will absolutely need to justify buying it. Something like 6 characters will not make people happy. It has to have around 10-15, plus new DLC down the line(which was absolutely know that in general cases, we don't get DLC figured out till the base game is already determined. This still applies to 4. The game was determined, and frankly, Mewtwo was not possible for base, but that's why it was a free download. It is still possible it was the only character ever to be pushed to DLC due to these factors, unlike PP who has multiple things that don't fit that, including various data that has it placed after all the other amiibo. Meaning it was outright programmed to be the character after others. The amiibo release window is always going to be complicated due to 3rd party licensing, which actually applies to Pokemon in that case. Nintendo isn't the only one deciding how the amiibo is worked in. It's why they're later on generally, much like other 3rd parties).

So the chances are vastly unlikely. Impossible? No. Not until we find out more about the next console. Of course, with it already being a massive pain to license for just a port, which means it'll cost the same amount plus more(plus, people have to buy the same game again and a new console for it. Meaning they still would be spending more money than the original version, with little to come out of it. Another notable point with this is that we won't get much out of new content compared to Ultimate either. Even with a decent new base roster and new DLC, it will be ported over content instead of a nearly brand new game. Ultimate does take a bit from 4, but for the most part, it was done from scratch. This would no longer be the case. And they aren't going to lower the price much at all, if at all. It's going to be 70 since it's a big seller. No 60 for you, something which a port like that should be at bare minimum, if not 50, due to the mass content it will now have. Plus, the fact it would have 80+ characters, so there's no way to justify such a low price like 60 anymore. It might even be higher than 70 due to these. 80-100 isn't that unfeasible anymore, but realistically, 70 would be the price. However, since we will get DLC later on, that means we're adding enough to hit at least 100 or more. Plus with a console that's going to be in 300-400 range, that's 500 or more for... a port).

...This is why they don't do ports like this. It costs way too much money to create, money they will not get back easily at all. They lose money to begin with due to how little things cost to buy. So that makes it worse. All in all, a new game is cheaper to work with, since they no longer have to worry about as much licensing fees, but this also gives them breathing room for new ideas and they don't need to focus so much on character balance due to having less characters from the start. This means modes will have more to it(not something like SSE, but at least we won't have modes cut and lucky to be brought back later either).

I could go on, but there's really no good reason for a Deluxe Port at the end of the day when it actually is a poor business decision. That said, if the system isn't backwards compatible, it could happen... eventually. But it wouldn't have any DLC either because it's just a cheaper port for people to get than trying to buy all the DLC, etc. The caveat is that 3rd party companies do appear to really dislike selling things in base. The Mii Costumes may never be base for 3rd parties, which also brings another issue with a Deluxe Port. You will still be spending extra money to get certain things, even if somehow the characters all stay in base(Sora would likely be DLC at the very least). So don't expect it to be "cheaper" no matter what. There will never be a good deal for anyone that works how fans may want it to. Porting any game over sounds simple, but only if it's entirely 1st party. If it has 3rd party content, everything must be re-licensed again. I'm repeating this for a reason; it's a cold hard fact. Yes, Ultimate Deluxe will still cost money for them to create, though it could theoretically be cheaper than the normal Ultimate from start to finish(including DLC), it probably won't be anyway. You have new development costs, additional content, new licensing fees for other stuff added in by default, the licensing for 3rd Party Mii costumes will be different from the other stuff since DLC is determined later on(so it won't be bundled with other 3rd parties who are base. It can't, since they're separate timelines. As noted, DLC is determined after the core game is figured out. A few years in by default. As also noted, Mewtwo could've been the one-time exception, but we know for a fact it wasn't for Ultimate. That wasn't till 2017 that DLC became a thing), so the lack of bundling does cost them even more. All in all? It probably will cost them significantly more to do Ultimate Deluxe with base and DLC licensing combined, which is part of why it'll be a 70 game bare minimum before DLC pushes it further.

You can start to see why people are leery of the concept of a Deluxe. Especially since it can't work anywhere like Mario Kart 8 did. 3rd party fees, DLC-only content(that isn't figured out till later). The one thing not mentioned yet is... they are going to still do balancing in general and veterans may get minor changes to compliment new games at the time. While it could be only aesthetic, this is also a problem in another way; people who want a Deluxe is because they just want the game on another system. Outright doing any change to a character would ruin the point of a hard port. So this also means they need to remain static to please the fanbases. On the other hand, this hurts the concept of getting enough new content. The only changes would be bug-related stuff from the start. Sure, we'll get further patches by default, but the main game will be basically the same characters as the finale of Ultimate had, after Sora released. That conundrum gets worse too; with them having little point to changing the base game too much from the final game beyond straight-out additions, this means that it's harder to justify a massive price like 70. It has the content, but not enough changes. So you lose either way. Is it even possible for them to make the money back well enough in their opinion from a near identical port with just some new content? Is it worth the new development time? The answer is probably "no". If it was a first party game through and through(or had very little 3rd party content), sure. But it isn't. It's too much cost to justify the concept.

I'm 99% sure we're getting a new game and Ultimate will just be playable on the Switch successor. Upside is there should be a way that you don't need to do the game from scratch on the new console and it'll give you back all the DLC you got. At most, you may need to still unlock other stuff like normal. Though a patch could be thrown in to have an "unlock" button, but they'd otherwise need to add new Save data so you'll get everything from the Switch console back, being linked to your Nintendo account and all. Or it could be cloud saving. It's even possible Ultimate could get a non-balance patch like the amiibo ones that do this. Who knows. But that's generally how you would account for that and all.

Ah, right, the Mario Party stage. I'd love that. There's a lot of neat locations that you could work with. Whether it's a traveling stage, or a gimmick based upon a level. Having one that minorly transforms(like Mario Party 3 does with its boards) is another way. Could even incorporate some of the various items, like teleport spots to where the Star would be(or even make those usual spots the spawn points for a character), etc.

 

[Borskaboska]

honestly id imagine a mario party stage working a lot like Clown Man's stage from MM8

 

[cashregister9]

I think they should add a Smash Version of Mario Party instead of a Mario Party stage.

Like some sort of "Smash Tour"

 

[superprincess]

I don't know how these deals work but isn't it feasible that they licensed characters for Ultimate & any rereleases of the Ultimate?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't know how these deals work but isn't it feasible that they licensed characters for Ultimate & any rereleases of the Ultimate?

It is. In fact, I'm willing to bet they did something similar for some of the Smash 4 vets. They probably worked on permissions for future titles for the DLC crew.

 

[superprincess]

It is. In fact, I'm willing to bet they did something similar for some of the Smash 4 vets. They probably worked on permissions for future titles for the DLC crew.

But Sakurai told us that re-licensing Cloud was difficult. I don't think there was much future proofing involved with the jump from SSB4 to Ultimate. And if there was, Squenix probably didn't accept.

Which would make Ult Deluxe with all the 3rd party characters an incredibly difficult feat.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't know how these deals work but isn't it feasible that they licensed characters for Ultimate & any rereleases of the Ultimate?

There's some context to how it can be done;

• A straight port that never changes is plausible. Because no other licensing is ever needed to be done. However, the chances this can work for any console are slim.
• Companies want to know details. If you can't tell them what console is next, they would be leery. It's a trust issue. You can't just give zero information to what you will do with their IP. That's the only way for true future releases to work. This is why a lot of games take forever to get a rerelease. Because companies aren't willing to pay to an unknown future early.

Basically, it's very important to know what's going to happen. Re-licensing anything for Ultimate worked because the Switch was already on its way.

Ultimate however doesn't work the same way; they couldn't do a future thing because no new console was already far enough in the works to do so. They could absolutely re-license it again(for a reasonably cheaper price) for a straight port with nothing but minor touchups, sure. But if it's a game with multiple new stuff, that means it's still new, so effectively would require a re-licensing.

As for Cloud, this is more that they could've feasibly gotten Cloud, Ryu, and Bayonetta for two games at once, but we absolutely know that the 3rd Party Mii Costumes couldn't have gone entirely the same way. It's possible they did license them for base game, but it changed. As they became DLC later on or never was going to be anything but DLC in the first place. Either way, this also means that licensing everything is much more difficult. See what I said way earlier on about how DLC is not planned for in the original project plan. Though do keep in mind this applies to paid DLC. Brawl was planned with it at some point via Stage Creator stuff(I don't remember any other kind of DLC), and 4 did not have any to start with(Mewtwo became paid later on instead of free if you buy both games).

Basically, even if they did pay to port it over, it would've been during the Pass 2 phase at best. Not when the base game originally happened. They couldn't have paid for the DLC characters yet, as there's essentially 4 or more licensing instances;

• Everything in the base game(which could've happened during 4's final DLC phase too)
• Pass 1
• Pass 2
• Sora

Special note to DLC Mii Costumes. We don't know how they were licensed at all. Also, apparently many characters were licensed at different time periods too, but for the purpose, that's mainly what we need in terms of time periods. Sora nearly didn't make it in outside of luck in that case, hence why he's separate. And as I said, the Mii Costumes aren't clear on anything at all. This isn't even thinking about Spirits, but they're often tied to the franchise or company that got in for a Spirit Board, so that one's actually very likely to be the case. Likewise, a few Costumes are directly based upon the DLC characters' related stuff, so those likely were part of the same deal.

You could go further on and probably map it out a lot better than this quick one, but yeah, licensing's a jerk. Especially when the Mii Costumes have shown to be treated so far as DLC only, which puts more wrenches into easy stuff. That said, if Smash Ultimate Deluxe was a thing but they deliberately will have zero DLC beyond balance patches(no, it's not realistic), that's the only likely case all the 3rd party Mii costumes would return outside of DLC. If that was the case, the port would be definitely be a bit more expensive. Normally, 70, but they could easily justify it being closer to 80 at that point. That way they get at least a reasonable amount of return for the re-licensing of a lot of content.

Last thing to note is that if a sequel was started not that long ago, it was likely during Pass 2. I said it in a previous message, but Steve, Sephiroth, and Sora might already be licensed for the next game as is for a bit cheaper, since it was a close enough development. Everybody else, no. Depending the total costs would also determine how much a deluxe port's main game would cost. 60 is off the table due to the immense amount of re-licensing some will, but 70 isn't too hard to believe if the deals were cheap enough. 80 is a more expected price otherwise, if only since it covers the costs better and there's enough content already there where the price isn't outright atrocious. As for a new Smash game, 70 is a pretty reasonable price on its own.

(And yes, I remember Cloud being hard to get, but it also might be because of stuff like licensing for two games as is, some Spirits, and of course, the music overall. SE in particular divides royalties up, so Cloud would've been hard to license for one or two games. It may just refer to that, and not in particular about Ultimate alone).

 

[DarthEnderX]

I don't know how these deals work but isn't it feasible that they licensed characters for Ultimate & any rereleases of the Ultimate?

If Nintendo had enough foresight, then certainly. But I'm sure that would cost extra. And the question is if Nintendo would be willing to shell out extra, unless they already knew they'd be rereleasing the game.

Which would be interesting, considering they've never rereleased a Smash game before. Smash 64 still isn't even on NSO.

 

[fogbadge]

is there much fan demand for a port of ultimate?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

is there much fan demand for a port of ultimate?

Not really. It's actually a very small set, since it's more of an Echo Chamber at best. It's actually more common to expect a new game.

You can see it mainly from some of the hardcore fanbase(which Smash caters to casuals mainly), so. It's the same kind of thing as when people talk about "extreme character changes". Same kind of fans mainly. That said, they don't entirely overlap. It's just mostly seen from that kind of fanbase, not so much that you will see it on every fan. I'm a hardcore fan, but I sure as hell don't want either.

Casuals generally are just referred to people who don't care about that stuff and just want fun options. Some will of course not like a decision, either.

 

[fogbadge]

Not really. It's actually a very small set, since it's more of an Echo Chamber at best. It's actually more common to expect a new game.

You can see it mainly from some of the hardcore fanbase(which Smash caters to casuals mainly), so. It's the same kind of thing as when people talk about "extreme character changes". Same kind of fans mainly. That said, they don't entirely overlap. It's just mostly seen from that kind of fanbase, not so much that you will see it on every fan. I'm a hardcore fan, but I sure as hell don't want either.

Casuals generally are just referred to people who don't care about that stuff and just want fun options. Some will of course not like a decision, either.

I thought there didn’t seem to be much. Sure the idea comes up a lot but most of us seem down on it

 

[Diddy Kong]

So I discovered something after seeing trailer analyses of Zelda Echoes of Wisdom. Apparently this game has a battle ready Old Impa. This is very interesting cause Old Impa has never been shown to have any sort of fighting skills up to this point. It was only shown in her younger versions.

This kinda opens up a possibility for Old Impa to be included as a fighter now. As consistency was her biggest downfall as far as likelihood to be included in Smash.

Kinda cool. I myself always wanted a younger Impa in Smash but wouldn't be objected to an elder version either.

 

[fogbadge]

So I discovered something after seeing trailer analyses of Zelda Echoes of Wisdom. Apparently this game has a battle ready Old Impa. This is very interesting cause Old Impa has never been shown to have any sort of fighting skills up to this point. It was only shown in her younger versions.

This kinda opens up a possibility for Old Impa to be included as a fighter now. As consistency was her biggest downfall as far as likelihood to be included in Smash.

Kinda cool. I myself always wanted a younger Impa in Smash but wouldn't be objected to an elder version either.

it was always open it’s just no one wanted to entertain the idea

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

it was always open it’s just no one wanted to entertain the idea

I mean, besides me? I'm the Oracles Impa supporter, after all~

She ain't young in that one, that's for sure.

But this helps too~

 

[DarthEnderX]

is there much fan demand for a port of ultimate?

shrug Who knows. People who are for it will act as though they are legion. People who are against it will be all "vocal minority!"

There's no real way to be sure.

So I discovered something after seeing trailer analyses of Zelda Echoes of Wisdom. Apparently this game has a battle ready Old Impa. This is very interesting cause Old Impa has never been shown to have any sort of fighting skills up to this point. It was only shown in her younger versions.

I saw Impa doing ninja stuff in the trailer, but didn't realize it was an Old Impa. I just assumed it was, like, a Cadence of Hyrule-style Impa.

Some fun things from the trailer being pointed out in this video:

18 Cool Things You Might Have Missed in the Zelda Echoes of Wisdom Reveal Trailer

#zelda #echoesofwisdom #details We've highlighted 18 details from the reveal trailer of Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom; there are quite a lot of reference...

www.youtube.com

 

[Shinuto]

Spoiler: long

Fan demand for a Deluxe Port won't help on its own.

There has to be significantly bigger factors. Like licensing being much easier and cheap enough to justify it. If it's too expensive, or any company doesn't cooperate, it won't happen. They couldn't have licensed for two games anyway, since it at most could only license characters super at the end of the Pass(so only Pass 2 at the earliest) for a new game, which means multiple characters would need new deals. So that would account for maybe 3 at best. That means you still need to license all of Pass 1, the entire base game(including Spirits). And if the Switch successor is backwards compatible, which is fairly likely to begin with, that means you have everything else already as a game.

The sole reason why MK8 could even get an easy Deluxe is because it didn't deal with licensing in the way Smash does. It isn't full of 3rd party content, or anything that isn't hard owned by Nintendo(Pokemon in particular requires a lot of extra company stuff, due to different views on how they are used. I'm not sure if it's a licensing fee or just a time sink figuring things out, though. It may be both?)

Not to mention how much new base game content it will absolutely need to justify buying it. Something like 6 characters will not make people happy. It has to have around 10-15, plus new DLC down the line(which was absolutely know that in general cases, we don't get DLC figured out till the base game is already determined. This still applies to 4. The game was determined, and frankly, Mewtwo was not possible for base, but that's why it was a free download. It is still possible it was the only character ever to be pushed to DLC due to these factors, unlike PP who has multiple things that don't fit that, including various data that has it placed after all the other amiibo. Meaning it was outright programmed to be the character after others. The amiibo release window is always going to be complicated due to 3rd party licensing, which actually applies to Pokemon in that case. Nintendo isn't the only one deciding how the amiibo is worked in. It's why they're later on generally, much like other 3rd parties).

So the chances are vastly unlikely. Impossible? No. Not until we find out more about the next console. Of course, with it already being a massive pain to license for just a port, which means it'll cost the same amount plus more(plus, people have to buy the same game again and a new console for it. Meaning they still would be spending more money than the original version, with little to come out of it. Another notable point with this is that we won't get much out of new content compared to Ultimate either. Even with a decent new base roster and new DLC, it will be ported over content instead of a nearly brand new game. Ultimate does take a bit from 4, but for the most part, it was done from scratch. This would no longer be the case. And they aren't going to lower the price much at all, if at all. It's going to be 70 since it's a big seller. No 60 for you, something which a port like that should be at bare minimum, if not 50, due to the mass content it will now have. Plus, the fact it would have 80+ characters, so there's no way to justify such a low price like 60 anymore. It might even be higher than 70 due to these. 80-100 isn't that unfeasible anymore, but realistically, 70 would be the price. However, since we will get DLC later on, that means we're adding enough to hit at least 100 or more. Plus with a console that's going to be in 300-400 range, that's 500 or more for... a port).

...This is why they don't do ports like this. It costs way too much money to create, money they will not get back easily at all. They lose money to begin with due to how little things cost to buy. So that makes it worse. All in all, a new game is cheaper to work with, since they no longer have to worry about as much licensing fees, but this also gives them breathing room for new ideas and they don't need to focus so much on character balance due to having less characters from the start. This means modes will have more to it(not something like SSE, but at least we won't have modes cut and lucky to be brought back later either).

I could go on, but there's really no good reason for a Deluxe Port at the end of the day when it actually is a poor business decision. That said, if the system isn't backwards compatible, it could happen... eventually. But it wouldn't have any DLC either because it's just a cheaper port for people to get than trying to buy all the DLC, etc. The caveat is that 3rd party companies do appear to really dislike selling things in base. The Mii Costumes may never be base for 3rd parties, which also brings another issue with a Deluxe Port. You will still be spending extra money to get certain things, even if somehow the characters all stay in base(Sora would likely be DLC at the very least). So don't expect it to be "cheaper" no matter what. There will never be a good deal for anyone that works how fans may want it to. Porting any game over sounds simple, but only if it's entirely 1st party. If it has 3rd party content, everything must be re-licensed again. I'm repeating this for a reason; it's a cold hard fact. Yes, Ultimate Deluxe will still cost money for them to create, though it could theoretically be cheaper than the normal Ultimate from start to finish(including DLC), it probably won't be anyway. You have new development costs, additional content, new licensing fees for other stuff added in by default, the licensing for 3rd Party Mii costumes will be different from the other stuff since DLC is determined later on(so it won't be bundled with other 3rd parties who are base. It can't, since they're separate timelines. As noted, DLC is determined after the core game is figured out. A few years in by default. As also noted, Mewtwo could've been the one-time exception, but we know for a fact it wasn't for Ultimate. That wasn't till 2017 that DLC became a thing), so the lack of bundling does cost them even more. All in all? It probably will cost them significantly more to do Ultimate Deluxe with base and DLC licensing combined, which is part of why it'll be a 70 game bare minimum before DLC pushes it further.

You can start to see why people are leery of the concept of a Deluxe. Especially since it can't work anywhere like Mario Kart 8 did. 3rd party fees, DLC-only content(that isn't figured out till later). The one thing not mentioned yet is... they are going to still do balancing in general and veterans may get minor changes to compliment new games at the time. While it could be only aesthetic, this is also a problem in another way; people who want a Deluxe is because they just want the game on another system. Outright doing any change to a character would ruin the point of a hard port. So this also means they need to remain static to please the fanbases. On the other hand, this hurts the concept of getting enough new content. The only changes would be bug-related stuff from the start. Sure, we'll get further patches by default, but the main game will be basically the same characters as the finale of Ultimate had, after Sora released. That conundrum gets worse too; with them having little point to changing the base game too much from the final game beyond straight-out additions, this means that it's harder to justify a massive price like 70. It has the content, but not enough changes. So you lose either way. Is it even possible for them to make the money back well enough in their opinion from a near identical port with just some new content? Is it worth the new development time? The answer is probably "no". If it was a first party game through and through(or had very little 3rd party content), sure. But it isn't. It's too much cost to justify the concept.

I'm 99% sure we're getting a new game and Ultimate will just be playable on the Switch successor. Upside is there should be a way that you don't need to do the game from scratch on the new console and it'll give you back all the DLC you got. At most, you may need to still unlock other stuff like normal. Though a patch could be thrown in to have an "unlock" button, but they'd otherwise need to add new Save data so you'll get everything from the Switch console back, being linked to your Nintendo account and all. Or it could be cloud saving. It's even possible Ultimate could get a non-balance patch like the amiibo ones that do this. Who knows. But that's generally how you would account for that and all.

Ah, right, the Mario Party stage. I'd love that. There's a lot of neat locations that you could work with. Whether it's a traveling stage, or a gimmick based upon a level. Having one that minorly transforms(like Mario Party 3 does with its boards) is another way. Could even incorporate some of the various items, like teleport spots to where the Star would be(or even make those usual spots the spawn points for a character), etc.

Just do smash remix's pirate land.

 

[fogbadge]

I mean, besides me? I'm the Oracles Impa supporter, after all~

She ain't young in that one, that's for sure.

But this helps too~

and me

 

[Oracle Link]

BTW it would be really cool if we got Link, Zelda, Impa and ganon from the downfall timeline as seen in the opening of echoes of wisdom!
I dont know zelda rep in smash is always focused arround the adult/ 3d Versions of them would be nice to have their 2d selves for a change!
And i mean Champion link still be in the game!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

and me

Probably less than the Quest 64 support(thusfar), but hey, it's a start~ :D

 

[Diddy Kong]

Oracles Impa is the edgy choice that never made much sense to me honestly. I always advocated heavily for young Impa cause she's shown to be battle ready and the only consistent side character in Zelda from beginning to even recent years. Now she's fighting as an old woman that gives her more consistency.

In general I was always quite vocal about Impa and Ganon being the most consistent Zelda characters in the franchise not in Smash yet, and this new game gives us both of them. I kinda hope the new Smash reflects this in the roster. Cutting Young Link and adding Impa and Ganon whilst revamping Zelda, Ganondorf and differentiating Link and Toon Link more seems a good idea.

 

[Oracle Link]

Oracles Impa is the edgy choice that never made much sense to me honestly. I always advocated heavily for young Impa cause she's shown to be battle ready and the only consistent side character in Zelda from beginning to even recent years. Now she's fighting as an old woman that gives her more consistency.

In general I was always quite vocal about Impa and Ganon being the most consistent Zelda characters in the franchise not in Smash yet, and this new game gives us both of them. I kinda hope the new Smash reflects this in the roster. Cutting Young Link and adding Impa and Ganon whilst revamping Zelda, Ganondorf and differentiating Link and Toon Link more seems a good idea.

I meant impa from echoes of wisdom! There shes a Ninja! But you can only see her for a couple of frames!
Although I do still like oracles impa but yeah my idea for impa is being a soft revamp of sheik Like The Moveset would feel pretty familiar!
While having a couple more refrences!

 

[Sucumbio]

If Twitter is any indication (it's at least broader than here lol) there is a sense that because Mario Kart did it Smash will to, that is, have a Deluxe edition and then add new DLC.

I still think this is folly. Sakurai and Bamco and Co. should not be expected to follow the same strategy as AC or Kart, not to mention the actual differences between Smash and Kart/AC as games. Add to this backwards compatibility and it really just doesn't make sense for Smash to be re-releasing Ultimate as a deluxe edition.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oracles Impa also was shown to be the second Impa to clearly be capable of strength feats(as shown by the artwork, she's got very powerful muscles. If not the actual first one, as we don't really see much from OOT Impa either), isn't afraid to show skin either(which means she's proud of who she is. Something that's great in design. It didn't matter that she might be considered "ugly" by some dumb standard. She wore what she wore and all. Sadly this was censored outside of JP, but even then, she's a heroic heavyset woman, and that's awesome), and there's nothing to suggest she isn't capable of battle. She's still Zelda's Protector, so it's quite implied she knows how to fight. Nursemaid too, but that just means she can take care of herself. She even goes into disguise in Seasons to be able to keep an eye on Din. Also, her strength easily sends Link to the ground with a simple slap on the back, a cutscene within the game.

The cow throwing became quite a meme quickly due to her massive strength. As Impa is a recurring character, this also was the first one to be clearly rather old as well as showing more than enough muscle(meaning she's not out of shape either). Plus, artwork does imply she knows how to use it too. Calling it an "edgy" pick is also a bit unfair. People legitimately find her interesting. Even then, the meme isn't exactly that common anyway. It's a fairly lowkey one. People just like having an actual heavyset woman sometimes because it's a good representation of different bodyshapes. But also because she's an actually well-made version, for someone who plays little role in the plot itself, too. Remember, it's not till SS she has an actual decent-sized role beyond "giving Link some direction"(which wasn't till even the CD-i games that had her finally appear in-game, respectively).

To go back to an earlier point, dismissing what people like as some edgy or whatever thing is silly. Yes, people enjoy sillier things. What's wrong with that? Nobody said it was a likely design to ever be used(it won't be, but only because Impa's already not in a great spot, but also because newcomers tend to often use some of their most latest designs. It's sometimes veterans that change it up, but even then, it's pretty rare and Zelda is one of the few franchises to represent different eras as a choice, not simply because of when a character was introduced. Fire Emblem somewhat does this too, but that's because the characters don't span multiple games as legacy characters either).

As for Impa being a replacement of Sheik, besides that not being realistic at all, they're massively different outside of OOT, which, well, why would Impa be from that game? When she's gotten way more animations to use from other games. See what I said also above about her Oracles version. It's not that it's a bad game choice, it's just easier to pull from another game that cuts a lot of development time down. That's generally the best way to add a character. The way that's easiest. Of course, a popular design can also help, but it can also depend what version feels best for Sakurai(one has to dance in his mind, after all). And since HW is a specific spin-off(of which Koei Tecmo does own some of it), that's harder to go with anyway since it's extra unnecessary licensing. That, and Nintendo may not be okay with it either, as it makes sense they'd want a Zelda character to pull specifically from their created games. It's still their character being represented, and we do know how picky they can be. In fact, it applies to every company too. While some are far less worried about it, it's still a thing. It's fine to trust other companies with a design, but when you're trusting another company to be talked to for another person to design it? Basically it's a 3rd party going to a 3rd party instead of the 1st party for accurate representation. It's too hands-off. It makes sense why these things are also reduced to minor cameos(Spirits) or even Music. Because the company who owns the core IP has less good control over it. Yes, it sucks that HW wouldn't get much recognition due to this kind of stuff, but it's far better to not have any weird issues with the IP etc.

 

[Oracle Link]

Oracles Impa also was shown to be the second Impa to clearly be capable of strength feats(as shown by the artwork, she's got very powerful muscles. If not the actual first one, as we don't really see much from OOT Impa either), isn't afraid to show skin either(which means she's proud of who she is. Something that's great in design. It didn't matter that she might be considered "ugly" by some dumb standard. She wore what she wore and all. Sadly this was censored outside of JP, but even then, she's a heroic heavyset woman, and that's awesome), and there's nothing to suggest she isn't capable of battle. She's still Zelda's Protector, so it's quite implied she knows how to fight. Nursemaid too, but that just means she can take care of herself. She even goes into disguise in Seasons to be able to keep an eye on Din. Also, her strength easily sends Link to the ground with a simple slap on the back, a cutscene within the game.

The cow throwing became quite a meme quickly due to her massive strength. As Impa is a recurring character, this also was the first one to be clearly rather old as well as showing more than enough muscle(meaning she's not out of shape either). Plus, artwork does imply she knows how to use it too. Calling it an "edgy" pick is also a bit unfair. People legitimately find her interesting. Even then, the meme isn't exactly that common anyway. It's a fairly lowkey one. People just like having an actual heavyset woman sometimes because it's a good representation of different bodyshapes. But also because she's an actually well-made version, for someone who plays little role in the plot itself, too. Remember, it's not till SS she has an actual decent-sized role beyond "giving Link some direction"(which wasn't till even the CD-i games that had her finally appear in-game, respectively).

To go back to an earlier point, dismissing what people like as some edgy or whatever thing is silly. Yes, people enjoy sillier things. What's wrong with that? Nobody said it was a likely design to ever be used(it won't be, but only because Impa's already not in a great spot, but also because newcomers tend to often use some of their most latest designs. It's sometimes veterans that change it up, but even then, it's pretty rare and Zelda is one of the few franchises to represent different eras as a choice, not simply because of when a character was introduced. Fire Emblem somewhat does this too, but that's because the characters don't span multiple games as legacy characters either).

As for Impa being a replacement of Sheik, besides that not being realistic at all, they're massively different outside of OOT, which, well, why would Impa be from that game? When she's gotten way more animations to use from other games. See what I said also above about her Oracles version. It's not that it's a bad game choice, it's just easier to pull from another game that cuts a lot of development time down. That's generally the best way to add a character. The way that's easiest. Of course, a popular design can also help, but it can also depend what version feels best for Sakurai(one has to dance in his mind, after all). And since HW is a specific spin-off(of which Koei Tecmo does own some of it), that's harder to go with anyway since it's extra unnecessary licensing. That, and Nintendo may not be okay with it either, as it makes sense they'd want a Zelda character to pull specifically from their created games. It's still their character being represented, and we do know how picky they can be. In fact, it applies to every company too. While some are far less worried about it, it's still a thing. It's fine to trust other companies with a design, but when you're trusting another company to be talked to for another person to design it? Basically it's a 3rd party going to a 3rd party instead of the 1st party for accurate representation. It's too hands-off. It makes sense why these things are also reduced to minor cameos(Spirits) or even Music. Because the company who owns the core IP has less good control over it. Yes, it sucks that HW wouldn't get much recognition due to this kind of stuff, but it's far better to not have any weird issues with the IP etc.

I mean yeah oracles impa could be a fun and cool character!
I think she would fit very well in a zelda smash that way we also can have ninja impa!
I think she was fun in the manga! And decent in the games too! Obviously shes one of the few characters who isnt done that much justice in game!
Also if shes in a fighting game she could have a palette with blue skin ala Veran Possesion!
She also gives link the wooden sword which is neat!
(also you can sleep in her bed in seasons!)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean yeah oracles impa could be a fun and cool character!
I think she would fit very well in a zelda smash that way we also can have ninja impa!
I think she was fun in the manga! And decent in the games too! Obviously shes one of the few characters who isnt done that much justice in game!
Also if shes in a fighting game she could have a palette with blue skin ala Veran Possesion!
She also gives link the wooden sword which is neat!
(also you can sleep in her bed in seasons!)

I mean, yeah, both work. I'm just saying overall that it's pointless to replace Sheik when both Impas in question are widely different.

But as I also noted, replacing movesets via a character never has actually happened. Toon Link took Young Link's role as a Child Link, but didn't actually take his moveset. This wouldn't happen to Sheik either. She's only been updated visually anyway.

But putting aside having 2 different versions of Impa(which is fine), I really do like her being in. She's a great character. The way I viewed her moveset is something of a combination of multiple games(albeit, this was before BOTW even existed. SS was her latest appearance in the canon games, but otherwise we had HW, which I somewhat took into account for certain moves among the specials). I never mapped it out, but it was for Smash 4 too, so it had customs.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Everyone I know in real life who plays Smash a lot wants Ultimate 2, if not straight up an Ultimate port with more content.

Those who are not all that much into Smash would prefer more single player content. But they're not avid Smash players at all, so they'd just play through the single player stuff and then stop to engage with the game anyways...

 

[Perkilator]

Everyone I know in real life who plays Smash a lot wants Ultimate 2, if not straight up an Ultimate port with more content.

Those who are not all that much into Smash would prefer more single player content. But they're not avid Smash players at all, so they'd just play through the single player stuff and then stop to engage with the game anyways...

And then there’s me, who doesn’t care about the exact size of the roster as long as the characters are fun and there’s sufficient single player content.

 

[RileyXY1]

If Twitter is any indication (it's at least broader than here lol) there is a sense that because Mario Kart did it Smash will to, that is, have a Deluxe edition and then add new DLC.

I still think this is folly. Sakurai and Bamco and Co. should not be expected to follow the same strategy as AC or Kart, not to mention the actual differences between Smash and Kart/AC as games. Add to this backwards compatibility and it really just doesn't make sense for Smash to be re-releasing Ultimate as a deluxe edition.

Yeah. It just doesn't make sense for them to charge $70 for a game that most of the audience you're selling to already owns and can play on the current system through backwards compatibility.

 

[Lenidem]

Oracles Impa also was shown to be the second Impa to clearly be capable of strength feats(as shown by the artwork, she's got very powerful muscles. If not the actual first one, as we don't really see much from OOT Impa either), isn't afraid to show skin either(which means she's proud of who she is. Something that's great in design. It didn't matter that she might be considered "ugly" by some dumb standard. She wore what she wore and all. Sadly this was censored outside of JP, but even then, she's a heroic heavyset woman, and that's awesome), and there's nothing to suggest she isn't capable of battle. She's still Zelda's Protector, so it's quite implied she knows how to fight. Nursemaid too, but that just means she can take care of herself. She even goes into disguise in Seasons to be able to keep an eye on Din. Also, her strength easily sends Link to the ground with a simple slap on the back, a cutscene within the game.

The cow throwing became quite a meme quickly due to her massive strength. As Impa is a recurring character, this also was the first one to be clearly rather old as well as showing more than enough muscle(meaning she's not out of shape either). Plus, artwork does imply she knows how to use it too. Calling it an "edgy" pick is also a bit unfair. People legitimately find her interesting. Even then, the meme isn't exactly that common anyway. It's a fairly lowkey one. People just like having an actual heavyset woman sometimes because it's a good representation of different bodyshapes. But also because she's an actually well-made version, for someone who plays little role in the plot itself, too. Remember, it's not till SS she has an actual decent-sized role beyond "giving Link some direction"(which wasn't till even the CD-i games that had her finally appear in-game, respectively).

To go back to an earlier point, dismissing what people like as some edgy or whatever thing is silly. Yes, people enjoy sillier things. What's wrong with that? Nobody said it was a likely design to ever be used(it won't be, but only because Impa's already not in a great spot, but also because newcomers tend to often use some of their most latest designs. It's sometimes veterans that change it up, but even then, it's pretty rare and Zelda is one of the few franchises to represent different eras as a choice, not simply because of when a character was introduced. Fire Emblem somewhat does this too, but that's because the characters don't span multiple games as legacy characters either).

As for Impa being a replacement of Sheik, besides that not being realistic at all, they're massively different outside of OOT, which, well, why would Impa be from that game? When she's gotten way more animations to use from other games. See what I said also above about her Oracles version. It's not that it's a bad game choice, it's just easier to pull from another game that cuts a lot of development time down. That's generally the best way to add a character. The way that's easiest. Of course, a popular design can also help, but it can also depend what version feels best for Sakurai(one has to dance in his mind, after all). And since HW is a specific spin-off(of which Koei Tecmo does own some of it), that's harder to go with anyway since it's extra unnecessary licensing. That, and Nintendo may not be okay with it either, as it makes sense they'd want a Zelda character to pull specifically from their created games. It's still their character being represented, and we do know how picky they can be. In fact, it applies to every company too. While some are far less worried about it, it's still a thing. It's fine to trust other companies with a design, but when you're trusting another company to be talked to for another person to design it? Basically it's a 3rd party going to a 3rd party instead of the 1st party for accurate representation. It's too hands-off. It makes sense why these things are also reduced to minor cameos(Spirits) or even Music. Because the company who owns the core IP has less good control over it. Yes, it sucks that HW wouldn't get much recognition due to this kind of stuff, but it's far better to not have any weird issues with the IP etc.

I would still prefer an OoT/SS Impa, or the Impa from AoC, but your plaidoyer for Oracles' Impa is very good.

 

[Kirbeh]

Do casuals even hate characters from IPs they don't know as some people claim in forums? My casual friends don't think anything bad of characters they don't know, On the contrary my casual friends mains Little Mac and another mains Joker, and they never heard of Punch-Out or Persona before Smash Bros.
Some people act like adding Dillon from Rolling Western, DeMille from Tomato Adventure or Beat from Jet Set Radio is going to make casuals return copies of the game lol.
Most likely they just won't care or maybe some of them end up liking them.

Generally speaking, most don't, hence the " " in my previous post. Granted there are those who do, but they're in the minority.

I was more alluding to that sentiment within the speculation scene itself. Also a minority, but more vocal. You'll see cases where in speculation the casual audience will be used as a point against more niche series and your "literal who"s.

Most casual players don't care but the "general audience" is an easy/somewhat common point to try to use against smaller franchises.

 

[TheQuester]

Everyone I know in real life who plays Smash a lot wants Ultimate 2, if not straight up an Ultimate port with more content.

Those who are not all that much into Smash would prefer more single player content. But they're not avid Smash players at all, so they'd just play through the single player stuff and then stop to engage with the game anyways...

Yeah, most people aren't ready to move on to a Smash 6 yet, this is why i'm doubting a Smash 6 this early and i'm expecting a Deluxe Port first, it just seems like a DP with extra FP will make the most money and least complains at least right now, i think Ultimate will last close to 18 years, i could see we getting a new Smash game by like 2036 or so on the Switch 2 succesor, just not now.

Look i'd prefer a Smash 6 over Ult Deluxe as i'm ready to move on from Ultimate after playing and following it for 6 years, but objectively it makes little sense when most people are asking the later and will probably bring more money, a Smash 6 is more risky right now than people think.
Ofc, i'd still rather talk about Smash 6 even if i think it's not happening in at least 10+ years, because talking about a new game brings more interesting talk from my pov.