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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

SMAASH! Puppy

SMAASH! Puppy

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3rd party characters are hard to judge. Given what cuts may or may not have to be made, they can't all be in. Many of them are iconic to the industry as a whole and the ones that aren't are still extremely popular (:ultjoker:), got in due to fan demand (:ultbanjokazooie:), or are easy to grab (:ultbayonetta:). Every single one has a strong case to stay. There's really no precedent for how cuts are handled except for Snake, who doesn't have a clear reason as to why he was cut, making the information useless. The only thing I'm pretty sure on is Hero not being added to the base roster of the next game due to the expense of the music, and it will likely stay that way until the heat death of the music's owner.

As far as Geno goes though, I'd have to know how well Super Mario RPG did, but if it did really well, then I'd say he's got a...shot. :ultpacman:
No, but seriously he'd definitely be considered, though he'd be competing with Waluigi, Pauline, Toad/Captain Toad, and whatever other ideas Sakurai's got cookin' in that brain of his, and that's just the Mario characters. So yeah, not a sure shot, but a shot.
 
CannonStreak

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You know, if Geno gets in, I would like to see him do one of the Triple Moves he is in for a Final Smash, preferably with Mario and Mallow.

Now, I know what you're thinking; Mario is already playable! Well, Chrom is too, and he can be played as when Robin does their Final Smash on stage, which includes Chrom. Plus, if that weren't enough, if you are playing as Mario and an opponent has Piranha Plant, Mario appears in one of the plant's victory screens, even if he is clapping in a separate mini-screen.

I know there may be better Final Smashes, but who says this can't work?
 
CannonStreak

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GoldenYuiitusin said:
I mean they could learn to deal with it like every other character that has been Assist'd since Brawl :V
Click to expand...
Probably true. A little correction though about a possibility; considering how wanted he is, Waluigi, a character who has been an Assist since Brawl, may or may not be an Assist next game. :p
 
Perkilator

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I wrote yet another list of possible newcomers / newcomers I want that assumes 18 was the upper limit for base game newcomers, since Brawl had 18 newcomers total.
  1. Waluigi or Toad
  2. Geno
  3. Dixie Kong
  4. Impa or Rauru
  5. Raven Beak or Sylux
  6. Bandana Waddle Dee
  7. A Pokémon newcomer
  8. A Fire Emblem newcomer
  9. An Animal Crossing newcomer
  10. Noah & Mio
  11. Octoling
  12. Officer Howard
  13. Ring Fit Trainee
  14. Isaac
  15. An obscure newcomer
  16. A retro newcomer
  17. A Sonic newcomer
  18. Crash Bandicoot
 
G

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CannonStreak said:
LOL! You really must know good ways to make people laugh, GoldenYuiitusin. I believe he will, of course, but that made me laugh.
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I think he's being sarcastic. He's been pessimistic about Waluigi's chances in here before.

Then again he's been pessimistic about the chances of pretty much every Nintendo character ever. How Smash 6 is going to have any base game newcomers whatsoever beyond reps from the latest Pokemon and FE is a mystery to him.
 
pitchfulprocessing

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SMAASH! Puppy said:
I can't quite determine what Chun-Li's overall playstyle is just by watching, but she looks like she'd be really fun in Super Smash Bros. She'd probably have Ryu and Ken's light/heavy attack system for consistency, which would make her a bit complicated, but she has some pretty cool air combos, a wall jump, and special moves that could be implemented in interesting ways. Light Hazanshou could be an anti-projectile approach tool (like what Jolt Haymaker was advertised as, while Heavy Hazanshou could be a good vertical, but bad horrizontal recovery. Light Lightning Kicks could be a combo ender and heavy lightning kicks could be a combo extender.

Even with the more technical style that Street Fighter characters seem to have, I think Chun-Li could pop off whenever she's added.

EDIT: On a similar note, do you think Ryu will get his Denjin charge mechanic or Hashogeki from Street Fighter 6? My guess would be no since you'd lose Focus Attack's utility and it'd cause problems for keeping Ken (if they cared about that), and in the case of either it would probably cause one or both characters to be retooled substantially.

EDIT EDIT: Also just...Hashogeki seems like it would be awkward as a Down Special.
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The main issue with Chun-Li mechanically is implementing charge motions in Smash, which is when you have to hold back in a specific direction and then press a button to use a move. Kikoken for example requires Chun-Li to hold back like she's blocking and then pressing a punch button. Some games replace her charge inputs with standard motions, like Kikoken is sometimes half-circle forward + punch, but the charge motions are a key and recurring part of her playstyle up to the modern day that I can't see a Smash moveset wanting to miss out on them.

The best solution I could come up with is giving her a mechanic where if you hold a direction while she's shielding, her shield is cancelled, and she instead enters a "charge stance" where she's stationary and can be damaged like normal, but can now hold in certain directions to charge and use her special inputs. The charge stance could be instantly exited with no lag because it's essentially a workaround to Smash's movement. It's definitely a bit janky and not as fluid as it would be in Street Fighter where you block by holding back, but since shields in Smash are frame 1 I feel like it'd be close enough to replicate her gameplay and how long it takes her to use her motion inputs in Street Fighter.

Imo Chun-Li is cool enough and has such fun gameplay it'd be worth going the extra mile to do something like that for her.
 
CannonStreak

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Guynamednelson said:
I think he's being sarcastic. He's been pessimistic about Waluigi's chances in here before.

Then again he's been pessimistic about the chances of pretty much every Nintendo character ever. How Smash 6 is going to have any base game newcomers whatsoever beyond reps from the latest Pokemon and FE is a mystery to him.
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Yeah, but it still made me laugh. Even if I did not see it, sarcasm is a form of humor. Plus, there was one other post he made that made me laugh, which is why I said what I said in my last post.
 
Noipoi

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Guynamednelson said:
I think he's being sarcastic. He's been pessimistic about Waluigi's chances in here before.

Then again he's been pessimistic about the chances of pretty much every Nintendo character ever. How Smash 6 is going to have any base game newcomers whatsoever beyond reps from the latest Pokemon and FE is a mystery to him.
Click to expand...
Nabbit, the Sportsmates, and the kart from Stunt Race FX
 
CannonStreak

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Guynamednelson said:
I'll do it for him. For Sportsmates, at least:

We Have Miis At Home
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Well, I do like the Sportsmates, and I do not think they could be a bad addition. Sure they use sports things, but I think in their case, they could make a fun moveset.

Problem is, though, it is either them or Waluigi, since both represent sports games in some way, do they not? :troll:

GoldenYuiitusin said:
No one can catch a break from I, the one thinks there's going to be no Nintendo characters apparently.
Click to expand...
In your dreams, since there are still a good number of Nintendo characters left, and that there will be more in the future.
 
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CannonStreak

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GoldenYuiitusin said:
Not by Mr. George Orwell above; according to him, I don't believe in any of them. No Nintendo characters. Ever.
We're only getting some Pokémon he'll hate.
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Really? Yeah, you keep dreaming. Whoever George Orwell really is, I would not put any faith in what he says. The fact that there are some characters from Nintendo that can get into Smash (Dixie Kong and Bandana Dee, for example) can't be denied.
 
Kirbeh

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pitchfulprocessing said:
The main issue with Chun-Li mechanically is implementing charge motions in Smash, which is when you have to hold back in a specific direction and then press a button to use a move. Kikoken for example requires Chun-Li to hold back like she's blocking and then pressing a punch button. Some games replace her charge inputs with standard motions, like Kikoken is sometimes half-circle forward + punch, but the charge motions are a key and recurring part of her playstyle up to the modern day that I can't see a Smash moveset wanting to miss out on them.

The best solution I could come up with is giving her a mechanic where if you hold a direction while she's shielding, her shield is cancelled, and she instead enters a "charge stance" where she's stationary and can be damaged like normal, but can now hold in certain directions to charge and use her special inputs. The charge stance could be instantly exited with no lag because it's essentially a workaround to Smash's movement. It's definitely a bit janky and not as fluid as it would be in Street Fighter where you block by holding back, but since shields in Smash are frame 1 I feel like it'd be close enough to replicate her gameplay and how long it takes her to use her motion inputs in Street Fighter.

Imo Chun-Li is cool enough and has such fun gameplay it'd be worth going the extra mile to do something like that for her.
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I don't think charge motions would be that much of an issue tbh. Terry already gets a down to up charge for Rising Tackle, they'd probably do the same for Spinning Bird Kick or Tenshokykaku. And in the case of Tensho, it's actually historically been a DP in crossover games, so there's that option too.

Kikoken's motion changes all the time so making it a quarter circle motion for Smash like the Hadouken would be reasonable as well imo (or half circle if they really want to).

For back to forward charge from a standstill, she could just do a down-back charge while crouched. And so long as they let you buffer the motion during block stun, I think it'd work out just fine with shield as well.

If I were to design/predict a special move layout for Chun Li it'd probably be:

Neutral Special: Kikoken - Quarter or half circle forward as the input.
Side Special: Spinning Bird Kick - Back to forward charge like in ST for the input
Back Special: Hazanshu - Quarter or half circle back
Up Special: Tenshokyaku - Down up charge or DP
Down Special: Hyakuretsukyaku - Quarter or half circle back (whichever Hazanshu doesn't use)

Alternatively, if Back Special remains Terry specific, put Hyakuretsu on Neutral Attack as her rapid jab and move Hazanshu to Down Special.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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pitchfulprocessing said:
The main issue with Chun-Li mechanically is implementing charge motions in Smash, which is when you have to hold back in a specific direction and then press a button to use a move. Kikoken for example requires Chun-Li to hold back like she's blocking and then pressing a punch button. Some games replace her charge inputs with standard motions, like Kikoken is sometimes half-circle forward + punch, but the charge motions are a key and recurring part of her playstyle up to the modern day that I can't see a Smash moveset wanting to miss out on them.

The best solution I could come up with is giving her a mechanic where if you hold a direction while she's shielding, her shield is cancelled, and she instead enters a "charge stance" where she's stationary and can be damaged like normal, but can now hold in certain directions to charge and use her special inputs. The charge stance could be instantly exited with no lag because it's essentially a workaround to Smash's movement. It's definitely a bit janky and not as fluid as it would be in Street Fighter where you block by holding back, but since shields in Smash are frame 1 I feel like it'd be close enough to replicate her gameplay and how long it takes her to use her motion inputs in Street Fighter.

Imo Chun-Li is cool enough and has such fun gameplay it'd be worth going the extra mile to do something like that for her.
Click to expand...
Yeah left-right charge inputs are kinda strange in the context of a platform fighter. You might be able to get away with it with a short charge time though. Terry's is 24 frames, which is less than half a second. Even if you dash back I don't think you'd give up much ground in that amount of time, and there's also the tactic of down-backing as Kirbeh Kirbeh mentioned.

As far as your solution goes, I feel like it has issues with players wondering what the feature is supposed to do, and it'd be a pretty big nerf for her due to how shield shuffling works.
 
pitchfulprocessing

pitchfulprocessing

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Kirbeh said:
I don't think charge motions would be that much of an issue tbh. Terry already gets a down to up charge for Rising Tackle, they'd probably do the same for Spinning Bird Kick or Tenshokykaku. And in the case of Tensho, it's actually historically been a DP in crossover games, so there's that option too.

Kikoken's motion changes all the time so making it a quarter circle motion for Smash like the Hadouken would be reasonable as well imo (or half circle if they really want to).

For back to forward charge from a standstill, she could just do a down-back charge while crouched. And so long as they let you buffer the motion during block stun, I think it'd work out just fine with shield as well.

If I were to design/predict a special move layout for Chun Li it'd probably be.

Neutral Special: Kikoken - Quarter or half circle forward as the input.
Side Special: Spinning Bird Kick - Back to forward charge like in ST for the input
Back Special: Hazanshu - Quarter or half circle back
Up Special: Tenshokyaku - Down up charge or DP
Down Special: Hyakuretsukyaku - Quarter or half circle back (whichever Hazanshu doesn't use)

Alternatively, if Back Special remains Terry specific, put Hyakuretsu on Neutral Attack as her rapid jab and move Hazanshu to Down Special.
Click to expand...
I think the difference with something like Rising Tackle is that holding down on the ground broadly does the same thing in Smash as it does in Street Fighter/KOF/Tekken/etc, while holding back does something quite different that ties into how different the movement options are. It's the same reason Tekken doesn't have charge characters aside from Gigas in T7 and Shaheen's one charge move in T8. Some of Chun's moves are charged down ofc, and it would work fine for them, but I do think you'd have to come up with a kind of workaround to get her other charges into Smash.

Assuming you go the shield route then she def needs to be able to buffer the input during blockstun, though first Smash needs to fix its own input buffer lol. Blockstun in Smash is highly variable so I think it would be an important aspect. I was thinking you could perhaps make it so that holding the stick back during shield is what activates charge, while tilting it functions like normal so she still has shield DI, though adding more runs the risk of making it too complicated. You could just make her other charges more standard motions and I think that would be fine, just they're integral enough to her I think they're worth keeping and it's also just less fun to discuss lol.

I like how you mapped her moves and it's basically what I'd go for, I think a back special fits her.
 
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Super Mario RPG Remake has outsold Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, Foamstars, Dragon Quest Monsters: The Dark Prince, Octopath Traveller 2, and Forspoken. The only 2023-2024 Square Enix title it didn't outsell was Final Fantasy XVI, a game that was noted as not meeting sales expectations.

A remake of a 28-year-old game outsold everything but a new entry in their flagship franchise that was in development for 9 years. You bet your sweet, little butt that, even if Square was not that invested in Super Mario RPG or Geno going into the rerelease, they sure as hell are now.
 
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Kirbeh

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pitchfulprocessing said:
I think the difference with something like Rising Tackle is that holding down on the ground broadly does the same thing in Smash as it does in Street Fighter/KOF/Tekken/etc, while holding back does something quite different that ties into how different the movement options are. It's the same reason Tekken doesn't have charge characters aside from Gigas in T7 and Shaheen's one charge move in T8. Some of Chun's moves are charged down ofc, and it would work fine for them, but I do think you'd have to come up with a kind of workaround to get her other charges into Smash.

Assuming you go the shield route then she def needs to be able to buffer the input during blockstun, though first Smash needs to fix its own input buffer lol. Blockstun in Smash is highly variable so I think it would be an important aspect. I was thinking you could perhaps make it so that holding the stick back during shield is what activates charge, while tilting it functions like normal so she still has shield DI, though adding more runs the risk of making it too complicated. You could just make her other charges more standard motions and I think that would be fine, just they're integral enough to her I think they're worth keeping and it's also just less fun to discuss lol.

I like how you mapped her moves and it's basically what I'd go for, I think a back special fits her.
Click to expand...
I booted up Smash just to be sure, but you can in fact buffer Rising Tackle's charge during shield (including block stun) and have it come out as soon as you drop it. I imagine a forward to back would work just fine too. Provided future FGC's keep their "always facing the opponent" trait, you'd just need to slightly walk back before shielding and keep back held during shield. In actual practice, it would pretty much function just like it does in traditional FG's. Smash would actually just add an extra input for guard/block charges ironically enough.

So, it is doable, it's really more a matter of which move they'd map to a back to forward motion given her moves change motions from game to game. I'd still go for SBK (as forward special) since it feels intuitive for the forward movement, plus the current affinity for Super Turbo makes me think they'd have her based on that version to match Ryu and Ken. Plus, the only other real option is Kikoken which would probably be given a standard fireball motion or at most the half circle for the sake of keeping some kind of uniformity in the FGC's special input controls.
 
SMAASH! Puppy

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Taking a look at Chun-Li's inputs in each Street Fighter game (I don't think they'd pull from crossover appearances), she really has had her inputs change a decent amount:
  • Kikouken has been a charge and a quarter circle motion in a lot of things.
  • Hundred Lightning Kicks has only recently stopped being a mash special.
  • Tensho Kicks is currently a down down motion instead of a down charge.
  • Spinning Bird Kick is now a down charge instead of a side charge.
  • Hazanshu is now a quarter circle back instead of a half circle.
Keeping that in mind, there are some decisions to be made, like whether or not they want to avoid back charging, but getting the inputs together is actually not too bad, and regardless of how they want to handle Kikouken, they aren't locked out of adding anything else due to the fact that Super Smash Bros. uses less buttons. Out of curiosity, I looked at her Modern Controls in Street Fighter 6. They don't seem to give you Spinning Bird Kick (you can still input it manually though), so I doubt they'd 1-1 it, but there is an interesting quirk to it: Her "neutral special" and "back special" are technically both Hundred Lightning Kicks, but if you hold back for long enough, she throws out Kikouken instead. Keeping that in mind:
  • Neutral Special (Hundred Lightning Kicks): :GCD::GCDR::GCR: (This motion is from Street Fighter 5 and onward)
  • Forward Special (Spinning Bird Kick): :GCD:(Charge):GCU: (This motion is from Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike and onward)
  • Back Special (Kikouken): :GCL:(Charge):GCR: (This is the current motion)
  • Up Special (Tensho Kicks): :GCD::GCD: (This is the current motion)
  • Down Special (Hazanshu): :GCD::GCDL::GCL: (This is the current motion)
Honestly this makes a lot of sense. Kikouken being her back special makes the back charge motion feel more natural since you already have to press back to use the move anyway, and Hundred Lightning Kicks would feel right at home as a her neutral special due to how iconic it is for her, and just through game feel. After that the other special moves fall into place, with the only weird input being Hazanshu as down special, but Modern Chun-Li already has this input, so there's at least precedence for it.

EDIT: Oh, and if they didn't want to include a side charge motion, they could make Kikouken a half circle forward motion (which was used from Street Fighter Alpha 2-Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike), which fits just as well with it being a back special.
EDIT EDIT: Added the games each input was from for those who care)
 
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Kirbeh

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SMAASH! Puppy said:
Taking a look at Chun-Li's inputs in each Street Fighter game (I don't think they'd pull from crossover appearances), she really has had her inputs change a decent amount:
  • Kikouken has been a charge and a quarter circle motion in a lot of things.
  • Hundred Lightning Kicks has only recently stopped being a mash special.
  • Tensho Kicks is currently a down down motion instead of a down charge.
  • Spinning Bird Kick is now a down charge instead of a side charge.
  • Hazanshu is now a quarter circle back instead of a half circle.
Keeping that in mind, there are some decisions to be made, like whether or not they want to avoid back charging, but getting the inputs together is actually not too bad, and regardless of how they want to handle Kikouken, they aren't locked out of adding anything else due to the fact that Super Smash Bros. uses less buttons. Out of curiosity, I looked at her Modern Controls in Street Fighter 6. They don't seem to give you Spinning Bird Kick (you can still input it manually though), so I doubt they'd 1-1 it, but there is an interesting quirk to it: Her "neutral special" and "back special" are technically both Hundred Lightning Kicks, but if you hold back for long enough, she throws out Kikouken instead. Keeping that in mind:
  • Neutral Special (Hundred Lightning Kicks): :GCD::GCDR::GCR:
  • Forward Special (Spinning Bird Kick): :GCD:(Charge):GCU:
  • Back Special (Kikouken): :GCL:(Charge):GCR:
  • Up Special (Tensho Kicks): :GCD::GCD:
  • Down Special (Hazanshu): :GCD::GCDL::GCL:
Honestly this makes a lot of sense. Kikouken being her back special makes the back charge motion feel more natural since you already have to press back to use the move anyway, and Hundred Lightning Kicks would feel right at home as a her neutral special due to how iconic it is for her, and just through game feel. After that the other special moves fall into place, with the only weird input being Hazanshu as down special, but Modern Chun-Li already has this input, so there's at least precedence for it.

EDIT: Oh, and if they didn't want to include a side charge motion, they could make Kikouken a half circle forward motion, which fits just as well with it being a back special.
Click to expand...
I still feel like they'd opt for keeping her projectile on neutral and just giving it the more standard QCF. Kikoken is traditionally a charge move, but I don't know how I'd feel about putting that on Back Special of all places.

That's one of the reasons I used the Super Turbo input for SBK. For Smash, I feel like it's more intuitive to have the forward moving attack using the charge since you're holding back then flicking forward. I'd say SBK would work fine as either forward or back special in that regard. Or they could pull a Mario Tornado and make the spinning move Down Special to try and preserve the more common down to up motion.

I also think SF6's down, down input for Up Special would be a bad call due to also being the input for fast fall. Giving it an SRK motion like in Marvel/Tatsunoko vs Capcom would just fine here imo. It also adds some uniformity in the controls for the SF cast to make it easier to swap playing between them.

And while there is room for Hyakuretsu if they include a back special for Chun, I do think rapid jab would be a serviceable spot for it, especially since rapid press moves like it served as the inspiration for rapid jab in the first place. I think it'd be fitting, similar to how Terry's Power Charge got moved to dash attack.
 
Scrimblo Bimblo

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GoldenYuiitusin said:
If the Switch 2 is indeed backwards compatible.....it makes no sense to make an Ultimate+ or whatever if you can literally play Ultimate on the system normally.
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Why not? Depends on what that '+' entails.
I can't see why a version of Ultimate with improved graphics, all DLC on-disc, more modes and a small bunch of new characters wouldn't be a success. It's a great value proposition.
In fact, the actual obstacle between Ultimate + and reality is that it would be too great, if anything...
 
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