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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

dream1ng

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So with that, don't you all think the arguments saying this character can't be in Smash because of another existing character or an existing character can't get in because we have a new character that would take their place is all a dumb argument?
I think it's unwise to speak in absolutes, as in prescribing some "we can't get x" rule. But to that end, I think that every situation needs to be analyzed on a per case basis, as the inverse of that "rule", i.e.: "we got x like this, so we'll get y" doesn't necessarily hold weight either.

Otherwise this is a mindset that lends itself to false equivalencies, where if you're arguing for one character and you invoke a different, existing one who might share some trait, highlighting just that similarity can overlook any differences between the two which might cast them at different odds.

One of the more obvious examples is when people use third-parties when arguing for/against first-parties, or vice versa. In most respects, those two groups shouldn't be conflated - the two have different standards and qualities which lead to their inclusion/exclusion.

Basically, you can't cherrypick what is relevant about precedent when looking at candidates, and no two candidates are ever really in the exact same situation as another. You have to look at characters holistically and individually, and even then, the best you can do is raise a solid but not infallible argument.
 

Guynamednelson

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A new week, and we're getting the 3rd spirit event this week. Any predictions?
No, really, I don't. There's still major Nintendo releases that released after Sora that haven't gotten Spirit events...and then there's the chance of more random third-parties. I don't even want to bother speculating that.
 

GoldenYuiitusin

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A new week, and we're getting the 3rd spirit event this week. Any predictions?
Based on how the first one was some post-DLC Nintendo releases and the 2nd was a couple random 3rd Parties with no themed connection?



No, really, I don't. There's still major Nintendo releases that released after Sora that haven't gotten Spirit events...and then there's the chance of more random third-parties. I don't even want to bother speculating that.
MOTHERF-



Stole my joke.
 
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CannonStreak

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I think it's unwise to speak in absolutes, as in prescribing some "we can't get x" rule. But to that end, I think that every situation needs to be analyzed on a per case basis, as the inverse of that "rule", i.e.: "we got x like this, so we'll get y" doesn't necessarily hold weight either.

Otherwise this is a mindset that lends itself to false equivalencies, where if you're arguing for one character and you invoke a different, existing one who might share some trait, highlighting just that similarity can overlook any differences between the two which might cast them at different odds.

One of the more obvious examples is when people use third-parties when arguing for/against first-parties, or vice versa. In most respects, those two groups shouldn't be conflated - the two have different standards and qualities which lead to their inclusion/exclusion.

Basically, you can't cherrypick what is relevant about precedent when looking at candidates, and no two candidates are ever really in the exact same situation as another. You have to look at characters holistically and individually, and even then, the best you can do is raise a solid but not infallible argument.
Fair, except I was not trying to speak in absolutes, as I may have just worded it poorly, or thought it out poorly, that question.

Other than that, I do see what you mean. My asking the question poorly, but a lot, maybe (and most likely all) of what you said is so agreeable.
 

Hadokeyblade

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The fact that we're this far into the franchises history and some of the most iconic locations of major series still haven't made it in as stages honestly kinda baffles me. Yeah, Bowser's Castle is the big one, but where's the stage based on Kakariko Village? Victory Road? Any Metroid location that isn't flooded with acid or lava?
I dont think we need a victory road stage since we have two Pokemon league stages, which is right next door to victory road.
 

Ivander

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Well, we do have Frigate Orpheon. But yeah there are plenty of other ones I'd like to see too, like the EMMI areas or Raven Beak's lair from Dread or a more classic angle with Tourian or Upper Brinstar from Super Metroid.

And well, I know it doesn't fix the lava problem, but I think it'd be awesome to have a stage based on Ridley's lair.

View attachment 384109
Give us Ferenia.

If Miis and the Mii costumes come back in the next game, I'm fully expecting them to get an Among Us costume.
Crewmate for Mii Brawler and Imposter for Mii Swordfighter
As long as we get a Fall Guy Mii Costume complete with a Fall Guy voice option to go with them.
 

SPEN18

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There seems to be a lot of cognitive dissonance regarding cuts for the next Smash game. The consensus of the thread seems to be that approximately 60 vets would return from Ultimate, meaning that about 29 of Ultimate's 89-character roster would not be present. However, the thread is only willing to accept the possibility of about 10 to 15 characters being cut, primarily consisting of characters that are derivative of another and promotional characters that have since become somewhat outdated.

The numerical reality of the situation is that the next Smash wouldn't just be "Everyone is Here except Pichu, Young Link, Corrin, Incineroar, and Piranha Plant". A sizeable chunk of Ultimate would not make the jump to the base roster. The number of cuts that would need to be made to get the game out the door (according to historical trends) is larger than the number of characters with enough merit to their inclusion to justify bringing them back. That means there will be many borderline candidates who will get the axe due to a simple absence of time rather than some inadequacy, especially when you get the "obvious" cuts out of the way.
At least from my vantage point, I think the issue here is the following.

At least for first parties, there's a sizeable chunk of characters that are practically guaranteed to return, with only extremely niche discussion of them possibly being cut.
Then there's that bottom chunk you mentioned where most are in agreement that they're at considerable risk.
But the middle tier between those two is admittedly very difficult to rank. Very likely the final cutoff point is going to be somewhere towards the back end of this middle tier, so each character in that group has a better chance than not of staying, but ultimately some will likely not make it.

So whenever a character in that middle tier gets brought up, you're going to see the arguments skew mostly in favor of them returning, because their chances of returning are actually pretty good. But the issue is if you have like 25 characters with a 65-85% chance each then, well, some probably won't make it.

Point is, I don't think it's necessarily wrong that arguments for certain characters are skewing in favor of them returning. Just maybe needs to be qualified a bit more with some of the select scenarios in which they may not return.
 

Gorgonzales

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tf2 would be a funny spirit to have. what would represent the 9 mercs the best?
Engineer is Builder Mario with constant access to Killer Eyes and Healing fields, as well as having an Abra teleport him around. this basically represents all three of his main building abilities.

Medic is a Dr. Mario that's constantly avoiding you and hiding behind a massive Ganondorf, and at a certain point of the match both of them become temporarily invincible as a reference to how Ubercharge works.
 

KingofPhantoms

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I honestly have no idea if the next Smash game is going to be entirely new or if we're just going to get a port of Ultimate with even more content. I wouldn't be surprised in either case since a new game would be a nice change of pace, but Ultimate was a huge success and it wouldn't even be the first port with new content of one of Nintendo's more relatively recent games.

The roster might seem bloated, but it's hard to deny that having every past playable character from every prior SSB game, plus an abundance of newcomers from both first party and third party titles alike (almost if not all of whom are highly popular characters in their own right and several of whom had been highly requested newcomers for years) is a pretty big draw.
 

NintenRob

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I think something to really consider in terms of how much is retained is the hardware jump. The were two major things Sakurai credited for being able to pull off everyone is here.

1. Using the same team immediately after Smash Wii U finished development
2. The hardware jump between Switch and Smash Wii U was minimal. There was no big gameplay shakeup.
 

Dinoman96

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Anyone else witnessing all the madness going on with Xbox right now lmao


If rumors are to believed, I was wrong about what I said before, it looks like Microsoft may really be pushing bringing most of their big AAA stuff like Starfield to to other platforms.

Also for you Halo fans/Master Chief supporters in here:


Seems like one day, "not on a Nintendo platform" may not be an argument against Master Chief lol
 
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RileyXY1

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Anyone else witnessing all the madness going on with Xbox right now lmao


If rumors are to believed, I was wrong about what I said before, it looks like Microsoft may really be pushing bringing most of their big AAA stuff like Starfield to to other platforms.

Also for you Halo fans/Master Chief supporters in here:


Seems like one day, "not on a Nintendo platform" may not be an argument against Master Chief lol
It is well known that Microsoft might soon be exiting the console market entirely. They already said that they "lost the console wars", and they might be pivoting away from the console market and more towards cloud gaming and streaming soon. The next Xbox might not even be a console at all, but instead a streaming service.
 

Louie G.

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I think something to really consider in terms of how much is retained is the hardware jump. The were two major things Sakurai credited for being able to pull off everyone is here.

1. Using the same team immediately after Smash Wii U finished development
2. The hardware jump between Switch and Smash Wii U was minimal. There was no big gameplay shakeup.
I think you're spot on, which is why we're probably gonna see something similar in scale to base roster. Given that...

1. Namco is back on board given the recent job listings, provided those are about Smash.
2. The hardware jump between Switch and our next console is unlikely to be very big. In all likelihood it's just going to be a more powerful Switch.

And on top of that, the massive success of Smash Ultimate gives them less incentive than ever to shake up the gameplay. They'll want the millions of new players to be able to come back to a familiar game and not be alienated by a drastic change in game engine, physics or mechanics. So all of these things are at least enough to determine this next game won't be a scorched earth reboot. But if 69 unique characters on base roster is the precedent Ultimate set, a lofty standard that we were only able to match through those conditions, I suspect that's pretty close to what we'll see again.

Just, yknow, we got 13 more characters after the fact and I'd hope we're looking at somewhere around 10-14 newcomers at base again with EIH no longer the focus. I assume that's probably where everyone else's minds are too since a cut total somewhere in the 20s keeps popping up.
 
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RileyXY1

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I think you're spot on, which is why we're probably gonna see something similar in scale to base roster. Given that...

1. Namco is back on board given the recent job listings, provided those are about Smash.
2. The hardware jump between Switch and our next console is unlikely to be very big. In all likelihood it's just going to be a more powerful Switch.

And on top of that, the massive success of Smash Ultimate gives them less incentive than ever to shake up the gameplay. They'll want the millions of new players to be able to come back to a familiar game and not be alienated by a drastic change in game engine, physics or mechanics. So all of these things are at least enough to determine this next game won't be a scorched earth reboot. But if 69 unique characters on base roster is the precedent Ultimate set, a lofty standard that we were only able to match through those conditions, I suspect that's pretty close to what we'll see again.

Just, yknow, we got 13 more characters after the fact and I'd hope we're looking at somewhere around 10-14 newcomers at base again. I assume that's probably where everyone else's minds are too since a cut total somewhere in the 20s keeps popping up.
Although I don't know if that would be successful due to the Switch's high install base and people not wanting to buy the same game again with more content, plus Ultimate could potentially be played as is on the new console. And most of those base newcomers are probably gonna be clones if they do EIH again because of all the work that it would take to do it again. Ultimate itself already sacrificed much of its new content so they could bring as much back as possible. Of the 11 base roster newcomers, six of them were clones, and five of those clones were so similar to their base fighter that Sakurai created an entire new term called "Echo Fighter" to avoid the usual fan backlash that came with clones. There were also only four new stages in the base game, as all the work that would have gone into creating new stages was instead used to bring back and freshen up as many old stages as possible.
 

Louie G.

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Although I don't know if that would be successful due to the Switch's high install base and people not wanting to buy the same game again with more content, plus Ultimate could potentially be played as is on the new console. And most of those base newcomers are probably gonna be clones if they do EIH again because of all the work that it would take to do it again.
Well the focus would no longer be EIH, and we have to assume a lot of the development time that would have gone into making newcomers went into freshening up the old faces who missed a game or two.

:ultinkling::ultridley::ultsimon::ultkrool::ultisabelle::ultincineroar:
:ulticeclimbers::ultpichu::ultyounglink::ultsnake::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultwolf:

So if we quantify dev time as "characters who were not in the last game", this lineup is pretty on par with what we've seen in previous games. Just with more emphasis on bringing back cut veterans instead of funneling that dev time into a few more newcomers.

Just to clarify, I am not endorsing or expecting them to do Everyone is Here again. I'm expecting the roster to be about the same size as what Ultimate's roster was at launch, with a healthy batch of newcomers, which means we're going to lose a lot of characters to compensate. I've been pretty vocal about how we need to move on and shouldn't be getting hung up on Ultimate Deluxe. My case was just to suggest we could hit around 70 characters again.
 
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CannonStreak

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Anyone else witnessing all the madness going on with Xbox right now lmao


If rumors are to believed, I was wrong about what I said before, it looks like Microsoft may really be pushing bringing most of their big AAA stuff like Starfield to to other platforms.

Also for you Halo fans/Master Chief supporters in here:


Seems like one day, "not on a Nintendo platform" may not be an argument against Master Chief lol
This is definitely going to be a let down for many Xbox fans. With that said, I do feel sorry for them, even though I wish the best for Microsoft here.
 

Megadoomer

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tf2 would be a funny spirit to have. what would represent the 9 mercs the best?
My picks:

Scout - Pichu
Soldier - Snake
Pyro - Bowser (regularly uses his neutral B attack)
Demoman - Wolf (spawns with a Bob-Omb)
Heavy - K. Rool
Engineer - Villager (spawns with a Killer Eye)
Medic - Robin (spawns with a Healing Field)
Sniper - Dark Pit (spawns with a Staff)
Spy - Sheik

Certain weapons (Rage Blaster, Ray Gun, Super Scope, Steel Diver, any other gun-themed weapon) will spawn more often.
 

Ivander

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My picks:

Scout - Pichu
Soldier - Snake
Pyro - Bowser (regularly uses his neutral B attack)
Demoman - Wolf (spawns with a Bob-Omb)
Heavy - K. Rool
Engineer - Villager (spawns with a Killer Eye)
Medic - Robin (spawns with a Healing Field)
Sniper - Dark Pit (spawns with a Staff)
Spy - Sheik

Certain weapons (Rage Blaster, Ray Gun, Super Scope, Steel Diver, any other gun-themed weapon) will spawn more often.
Wouldn't Ness be a better pick for Scout because of Ness having a bat to go with a gun-themed item? Heck, Ness even has the definitive TF2 experience, a hat.
 
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Megadoomer

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Wouldn't Ness be a better pick for Scout because of Ness having a bat to go with a gun-themed item? Heck, Ness even has the definitive TF2 experience, a hat.
Yeah, he'd likely work better - I was just trying to think of a light and speedy character.
 

dream1ng

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At least from my vantage point, I think the issue here is the following.

At least for first parties, there's a sizeable chunk of characters that are practically guaranteed to return, with only extremely niche discussion of them possibly being cut.
Then there's that bottom chunk you mentioned where most are in agreement that they're at considerable risk.
But the middle tier between those two is admittedly very difficult to rank. Very likely the final cutoff point is going to be somewhere towards the back end of this middle tier, so each character in that group has a better chance than not of staying, but ultimately some will likely not make it.

So whenever a character in that middle tier gets brought up, you're going to see the arguments skew mostly in favor of them returning, because their chances of returning are actually pretty good. But the issue is if you have like 25 characters with a 65-85% chance each then, well, some probably won't make it.

Point is, I don't think it's necessarily wrong that arguments for certain characters are skewing in favor of them returning. Just maybe needs to be qualified a bit more with some of the select scenarios in which they may not return.
The problem here is that people are asking the wrong question. It's not a matter of taking a character in isolation and evaluating whether they have the merit to return, because the majority of the roster will have a reasonable argument behind them for coming back. Yet nevertheless, many of those defensible characters with perfectly sound arguments won't return simply because the finite resources didn't extend to them, and others were more highly prioritized.

The question that needs to be asked is where does this character rank in terms of priority? And there are some obviously more expendable choices, and some obvious safe choices, but like you said, a good number are somewhere in the middle. And we're not going to reach consensus on that rank.

But that's not even really the point, to get some agreed upon ranking. It's just to frame the premise more accurately. Less on whether x character has what it takes to return, and more on how they look next to other characters in terms of who would get priority.

Like, if you look at the Mario series. I've seen arguments made for the return each character. Though the two who seem to me more likely to be cut are probably PP and Doc. However, if we get three cuts? Four cuts? That's entirely possible, and yet it would verge into characters people could make very good arguments to keep. Sometimes it's going to be a matter of being entirely qualified, just not being prioritized.
 

RealLuigisWearPink

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The fact that we're this far into the franchises history and some of the most iconic locations of major series still haven't made it in as stages honestly kinda baffles me. Yeah, Bowser's Castle is the big one, but where's the stage based on Kakariko Village? Victory Road? Any Metroid location that isn't flooded with acid or lava?
Donkey Kong Country stage that isn’t in a jungle

I know we got 75M but that’s arguably a Mario stage
 
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RileyXY1

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These Spirit Events have been such a curveball that I'm not even gonna predict them, especially after how Event 2 turned out.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Donkey Kong Country stage that isn’t in a jungle

I know we got 75M but that’s arguably a Mario stage
It's not from Donkey Kong Country either way. It's from the original Donkey Kong Arcade game, which is both a DK and Mario game. So it's not arguably. However, it's also not from the Super Mario series either. One way to look at is that the only character in it is Donkey Kong(Cranky), so it being put under DK isn't the most odd thing.

It could've worked either way, since the franchises are specified as Super Mario and Donkey Kong Country.

Now, an actual DKC stage that isn't a jungle? That'd be sweeeeeeeeet. We did at least get the Minecart in SSE, but still. I'd like a Cave one.
 
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dream1ng

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Anyone else witnessing all the madness going on with Xbox right now lmao


If rumors are to believed, I was wrong about what I said before, it looks like Microsoft may really be pushing bringing most of their big AAA stuff like Starfield to to other platforms.

Also for you Halo fans/Master Chief supporters in here:


Seems like one day, "not on a Nintendo platform" may not be an argument against Master Chief lol
1. It would be nice to be rid of the not on a Nintendo platform argument for Chief, I agree. Especially if it actually is a factor in dissuading Nintendo. Which, even if just in terms of Xbox stuff rarely being prevalent in Japan, it may be. At that point it would, what? Valve (sans Portal), Sony, and I guess Genshin and Jinx (though there are still allegedly Genshin and LoL:WR ports coming - possibly now instead for Switch 2) without (non-skin) Nintendo appearances.

2. I would be happy about this, as someone who doesn't own a current Xbox. But I have to wonder how MS really benefits. This isn't going to get Nintendo or Sony to put Game Pass on their systems. And it's certainly not going to increase the number of Xboxes being sold. Yeah the games that are multiplat will sell better, but if that's the main benefit... then still being in the hardware game is almost counterproductive. So... not to be alarmist, but I do wonder if this signifies a gradual transition out of the hardware market.
 

Serix

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The fact that we're this far into the franchises history and some of the most iconic locations of major series still haven't made it in as stages honestly kinda baffles me. Yeah, Bowser's Castle is the big one, but where's the stage based on Kakariko Village? Victory Road? Any Metroid location that isn't flooded with acid or lava?
It's pretty sad that even in Ultimate there's still no Wario Land stage. I feel like there's more than enough locations to pick from. :dizzy:
 

SPEN18

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The problem here is that people are asking the wrong question. It's not a matter of taking a character in isolation and evaluating whether they have the merit to return, because the majority of the roster will have a reasonable argument behind them for coming back. Yet nevertheless, many of those defensible characters with perfectly sound arguments won't return simply because the finite resources didn't extend to them, and others were more highly prioritized.

The question that needs to be asked is where does this character rank in terms of priority? And there are some obviously more expendable choices, and some obvious safe choices, but like you said, a good number are somewhere in the middle. And we're not going to reach consensus on that rank.

But that's not even really the point, to get some agreed upon ranking. It's just to frame the premise more accurately. Less on whether x character has what it takes to return, and more on how they look next to other characters in terms of who would get priority.
Haven't I been arguing the whole time that characters need to be considered relative to each other rather than in a vacuum?

I was just pointing out that, like you say, it's going to be very difficult to achieve consensus on the middle tier, so naturally arguments are going to skew more towards those characters staying, because most people want them to stay and it's difficult to argue that they'd be veteran #50 vs. veteran #40.

Doesn't mean the discussion is pointless, doesn't mean you can't have your own personal rankings or opinions on it. Just explaining why, even for people trying to be objective, most of the arguments are going to skew towards characters staying, with some acknowledgment that they might not.

I mean, I do think we should be trying to dig deeper into who's actually in the upper middle tier and who's on the lower end, and we should be doing our best to frame arguments in terms of priority. Just acknowledging the difficulty.

For the record, I do keep my own rough priority list on hand because it helps a lot when posting; I think making their own is a good exercise that everyone can do (both how they would set the priorities and how they think Nintendo would).

Like, if you look at the Mario series. I've seen arguments made for the return each character. Though the two who seem to me more likely to be cut are probably PP and Doc. However, if we get three cuts? Four cuts? That's entirely possible, and yet it would verge into characters people could make very good arguments to keep. Sometimes it's going to be a matter of being entirely qualified, just not being prioritized.
True, the question of who from Mario would be ranked lower is a relevant one to ask. And indeed we have meaningfully discussed that question several times whenever the likes of Rosalina and Bowser Jr come up in the thread.
But that's also not the only relevant question for those two. Even if they're the next-lowest-ranked Mario characters, they're still Mario characters, and saying they're ranked lower then MLPB is not really saying much. So you still have to compare them to everyone else outside Mario, since they probably won't set quotas for the number of Mario veterans.
 
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