Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[GoodGrief741]

Why is everyone complaining about too many FE reps when Mario technically has 9?

Also, I'm saying this right now - we are getting a Sakurai Mii Costume at some point. Just his signature clothes that he wears for each Smash Direct.

im taking a screenshot right now just to be safe

Why are people complaining that Fire Emblem has so many characters when the most famous gaming franchise ever has barely more?

I think you answered your own question there buddy.

 

[I.D.]

But who knows if thi

How do we know that the next pass will come with stages/music? All we know is that it's another fighter. That's it.
Just because FP1 came with stages/music doesn't meant for sure that FP2 will be the same.

Plus, I don't think the developers would take time to make sure certain Assist Trophies don't spawn during a match with Assist Trophy characters.

They already confirmed the next pass will come with stages and music.
And they made it so Alucard doesn't spawn on stages with mirrors.

 

[Us3inMN]

They took the time to ensure Alucard wouldn't show up if a mirror is present.

So then could you play as Alucard on stages with reflections?

Why are people complaining that Fire Emblem has so many characters when the most famous gaming franchise ever has barely more?

I think you answered your own question there buddy.

I'm not complaining that Mario has too many, I'm just sick of people complaining about too many FE reps. If they wanna complain about over saturation, complain about that instead.

They already confirmed the next pass will come with stages and music.

Whoops, missed that part. Big oof on my end.

 

[shinhed-echi]

And for people who nag about Fire Emblem overrepresentation, here's a question: what is your ideal number of Fire Emblem reps?

Marth.
Tactician/ Mage (Robin)
Weapon Switcher (Byleth) / Bowman.
Pegasus/Dragon rider

And at most. At MOST, just because FE is such a little Mr. Big Shot.

Dragon-Human. (Tiki).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm not complaining that Mario has too many, I'm just sick of people complaining about too many FE reps. If they wanna complain about over saturation, complain about that instead.

The people who hate Fire Emblem with such a passion played nothing but Mario 64 as a kid so they won't care about Mario


Also people are still expecting an AT promotion as DLC huh? I'll believe it when I see it

 

[Idon]

I'm all for tweaking Fire Emblem characters to make them less clone-y. Give Marth his Fire Emblem, man.

View attachment 258488

And for people who nag about Fire Emblem overrepresentation, here's a question: what is your ideal number of Fire Emblem reps?

The ideal number is the amount of characters I want to play as.

So...

1. Marth
2. Lyndis
3. Ike
4. Robin
5. Byleth

Seems reasonable, and if anyone complains about them all being swords, I'd say it's not like anyone in smash or FE fanbase is exactly pining for Ephraim or whatever.

 

[Ridrool64]

The thing about other long waits for Fighter information is that we had substantial stuff in between.

Between Joker and Hero's reveals were the releases of Piranha Plant and Joker. Between Banjo and Terry's reveals were the releases of Hero and Banjo. Between Terry and Byleth's reveals was the release of Terry.

Right now nothing is going on, there are no Fighter announcements or releases, and we don't have standalone content packs either. Having nothing going on will decrease casual interest in the game. I think a new fighter isn't coming as soon as February, but will come before E3. I believe April will reveal the character, but the fighter's gameplan won't be revealed until E3. Then they have something significant to show.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Well it did happen last year with the gap between Joker and Hero/Banjo. It isn't out of the question. Plus given the Pass is running until the end of 2021 they have to gap it quite a bit.

They could still gap it quite a bit even if they reveal the first fighter by the end of next month or this month. What happened last year/late 2018 was different; Joker was revealed as the first character of the fighters pass, and then the pass went up for sale with Ultimate’s release. The gap between Joker and Hero/Banjo & Kazooie is irrelevant.

edit: Of course, they could make us wait until E3, but I swear that’s a truly dumb marketing choice even for them, and I don’t really think their other choices have actually been all that dumb as much as people say so.

 

[Lamperouge]

Oh don't get me wrong, Xenoblade 2 fans still don't deserve basic human rights

Oh, you're one of those people.

Got ya.

 

[Knight Dude]

Fire Emblem getting another character was essentially a band-aid that needed to be ripped off. Whether people like it or not, Three Houses was always a front-running candidate to get another character either now, or for Season 2. While I mostly expected the 5th pick being 3rd party, I always viewed Three Houses and Astral Chain as exceptions.

Frankly, I think the Fire Emblem hate, while understandable, ignores the context of the series and its relationship with Smash in the first place. We get Marth because he's popular and is a different type of sword-user to Link. As it's a new franchise to Smash, Roy is also brought in because of his new game coming in Japan, but also because he can be different from Marth. Roy was later brought back due to fan request during Smash Wii U DLC, being differentiated from Marth in the process, now playing nearly nothing like him.

Ike was added as a character from a newer game, which came from the FIre Emblem series, and Sakurai was looking for a heavy sword user. Despite Ike being quite fast in his base games, this could work for Smash. Ganondorf was not an option to declone, because there are abilities Ike brings to the table that Ganondorf does not, and he's a newer character at this point. Made sense to go with that decision.

Robin is added to Wii U because, unlike Chrom at the time, it made more sense to put in resources for a character that brings something quite new to the table. Lucina is added to pad the roster, just like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit. These three were selected because of resources that could be passed onto them, as they essentially share the shape, size, and moveset of their counterparts. This is not the same thing as, say, Dixie Kong over Diddy Kong, or some other choice. They were deliberate, but it also should be mentioned that Lucina was a popular character, and still is.

Corrin, while undeniably the more controversial pick, was added due to the search of a character from a newer game. The best justification I can come up with for this pick is that, frankly, with a mascot fighting game, main protagonists will always have the appeal over side characters to a general audience...the people you're targeting with most picks in DLC additions. I may be wrong, but there weren't really that many other recognizable games at the time that would have these requirements. Corrin also brought something new to the table.

Chrom gets in because he's a popular pick that requires few resources at the time, thereby getting into the game in the same way that Dark Samus or Richter Belmont get into the game. He is still functionally different from any other Fire Emblem character in the roster. Little time and resources, well thought out pay off in the end.

Byleth, our latest addition, brings a variety of weapons that people have been begging for in addition to their sword. They also come from a game that was quite successful (though they were chosen prior to the release of said game), but Byleth does bring something new to the table. Saying "they bring nothing" is a blatant falsehood. Other major releases at that point, such as anything Mario, Zelda, or otherwise do not have the same character pool of main protagonists that Fire Emblem has. We also have no idea how Game Freak works with Sword & Shield, while I don't know about them being against a SwSh fighter, I'm not sure if that would have been a production for the development team.

It is not Sakurai's fault that the Fire Emblem characters have similar designs- that is on Intelligent Systems. However, there's so much more to the characters than the color of their hair...that's something that I wouldn't think would need to be said at this point. You don't have to like Fire Emblem as a series, and you don't have to be alright with it after me suggesting these things, but I hope this provides some perspective. It's not all favoritism. I would argue it's not that cut and dry. At the very least, we're basically in the clear for any further characters until a future Smash game which...who knows when that will happen?

I was gonna say that, even when the series wasn't selling that well. Ike was a really popular character in the west, I think that was also a reason for him being added.

I'm not into FE, but Ike's a character who I like a lot, since I know his story and all that.

They took the time to ensure Alucard wouldn't show up if a mirror is present.

Which is kind of weird they went through the effort. Alucard's a Half-Vampire and all, but they could just set up some Day-Walker rules for him.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Oh, you're one of those people.

Got ya.

I take it you mean you think my issues with the game are solely with Pyra and not the multiple issues I have with the gameplay, story or worldbuilding? People assume that anyone who didn't like XB2 are prudes who cower in fear at seeing boobs after all

 

[KillerCage]

ok so

yeah i know, "leakers" but this is kinda suspicious. This guy said Byleth was FP5 back in October, that Crash is next, neither Smash nor BOTW2 would be at TGA, MK11 WOULD be at TGA, and "direct on thurs" on the 13th. some part of me feels like something's a bit off though

https://twitter.com/MandyCanNot

This guy clearly got everything right regarding Byleth and TGA, but...
I don't know; something about Mandy seems false to me.
We'll see if he's the real deal in the future based on his Crash prediction.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

You could say Fire Emblem was... a victim of circumstance.

If anything, they were the absolute beneficiary of circumstance.

That isn’t necessarily Sakurai’s fault, nor Intelligent Systems, not Nintendo either. It just so happens that Fire Emblem is a series that has regular releases, and a regularly changing cast, plenty of whom have become modern day Nintendo poster-children.

Mario and Zelda don’t quite have that same rotating cast, and while, sure, they could add a side character from Zelda, Smash is a mascot fighter. All the DLC we’ve gotten has been the main protagonist, and plenty of content from said game.

Frankly, I think that rotating cast is what separates Fire Emblem from plenty of the series currently in Smash. Xenoblade is another that could benefit from this, though I’m not confident Rex or Elma would be promoted.

 

[Dutch Raikuna]

I'm all for tweaking Fire Emblem characters to make them less clone-y. Give Marth his Fire Emblem, man.

And for people who nag about Fire Emblem overrepresentation, here's a question: what is your ideal number of Fire Emblem reps?

As someone who does like the series and if it was up to me it would be this logic be damned.

Melee
Marth - Of course

Brawl
Ike - Of course
Tiki - Her kid self, would be pretty appealing to children design wise, dragon stone moveset and is popular.
Smash 4
Robin - The Master Tactician would be in.
Azura - I love Corrin and just going by design/moveset wise I think is one of the coolest looking characters Nintendo has created in the past decade. I however have adored the idea of water purification in stories and I would love Azura as a water magic/lance user/songstress combo.

Ultimate
Byleth - Would have Edelgard still but I'm happy regardless.

 

[KniteBlargh]

Jost posting this tweet, 'cause... I don't know, I feel like it's relevant, I guess.

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate’s DLC line-up is now complete. This time the selection was made entirely by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan.

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) November 6, 2018

Hmm, it's so hard for me to decide on who the next six DLC chars will be. When you take leaks out of the equation, the first pass feels so unpredictable (to me). LOL

We have Joker who is such a specific character from a game that no one really thought of in connection with Nintendo, outside of some wanting Persona 5 on Switch, perhaps. Kind of a Cloud pick in randomness, I guess, except not the classic gaming icon that Cloud was for a lot of people.

Hero was an obvious choice for countless Japanese fans, but to get four different characters in one from a company known to be incredibly controlling of their IP (I realize Cloud and Hero are from different sides of Square Enix, but it still seems to apply), that certainly couldn't have been expected, especially when Cloud was the most expensive character to obtain rights for in Sm4sh. Also, getting Cloud in Sm4sh, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Japanese fans had lost hope in Hero since they are technically the bigger character over there, so in their minds, they probably should have been the ones to come first before Cloud would have a chance.

Banjo and Kazooie remind me a bit of Geno in that they have a very devoted fan-base, but were slowly becoming less relevant the more time passed on from when they were originally considered, and were also seen as having licensing obstacles that had to be worked out in order to make it. Their inclusion has been a true Cinderella story, the kind of happy ending you don't expect to actually happen as other third-party properties become ever more prominent.

Terry is actually a huge gaming icon, especially in other regions, but wouldn't necessarily be expected when we already have Ryu and Ken. Though he has a very different playstyle, at least in my opinion, I think quite a lot of people tend to imagine that a third-party addition has to bring something completely different to the table (like in the case of SNK, perhaps Fio somehow fighting with her tank, or something along those lines, though she's probably a bit too niche to be a good example of what I mean here). Also, I think Heihachi being from Namco and having been previously conceptualized as a possibility for Smash, more would have expected him as the next fighting game character addition, perhaps.

Probably don't need to touch much on Byleth since there's so much being said about the character right now, but I think some of the biggest reasons they were unpredictable were things along the lines of the first pass supposedly having to end with something "huge," there already being "too many FE characters" so that they're considered to be anti-hype, and the first pass being thought of as "all third-party additions."

So in short, we have a popular character not thought of in connection with Nintendo, a massive figure within the Japanese gaming industry, a beloved niche choice from the past, a third-party company's mascot who is both currently relevant and an important figure of gaming history, and a new Nintendo character from a franchise that is popular on both sides of the globe. If we throw in Piranha Plant as part of the DLC (even though they're not really part of the pass) as a "WTH?!" addition, perhaps the next six characters could follow a similar pattern/system? I definitely doubt each character in the next six would go exactly the same way, 'cause Nintendo is so unpredictable and loves to break fan-made theories, but it's interesting to think about, anyway.

Anyone care to play at listing six characters that would fit the descriptions I gave? I'll try to be brave and give it a shot first...
(1) Master Chief
(2) Monster Hunter (or perhaps a Tales rep; I'm not sure how sale figures compare these days)
(3) Geno
(4) Ryu Hayabusa (not that relevant currently)??? Arle (is she even considered a mascot)??? This one's tough.
(5) Gen 8 Pokemon
(6) F-Type from Stunt Race FX (Piranha Plant is definitely a more relevant character, but I wanted to choose something truly "WTH?!")
I'm... I'm not sure what I think of this list... LOL

Note: I started this post like, more than two hours ago and kept getting interrupted, so I'm sorry about all the rambling, and hope I haven't chosen my words poorly and offended anyone.

 

[Lamperouge]

I take it you mean you think my issues with the game are solely with Pyra and not the multiple issues I have with the gameplay, story or worldbuilding? People assume that anyone who didn't like XB2 are prudes who cower in fear at seeing boobs after all

I also have several issues with the gameplay and story, so no, I wasn't insinuating that you hated it sorely for the fanservice.

Still don't appreciate that jab at fans of the game, though.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I also have several issues with the gameplay and story, so no, I wasn't insinuating that you hated it sorely for the fanservice.

Still don't appreciate that jab at fans of the game, though.

Oh thank god, someone having issues with my hatred for XB2 who doesn't completely write everything off solely due to the sexualization stuff. That's surprisingly rare

 

[Cosmic77]

You could win the lottery on the same day you discover a cure for cancer, and you still wouldn't have better luck and better timing than FE. Literally every new game since Awakening has came out exactly when it needed to in order to receive a new character.

 

[WingedSupernova]

I’m expecting the next reveal to be whenever the next direct is. We’re able to pre-purchase the pass at the end of this month, they’re not gonna make people wait until E3, right? I expect by early March at the absolute latest (though it should really be early next month if not later this month).

I feel like if they waited until E3, the fighter pass 2 sales numbers would suffer, hence why the first major direct of the year is most likely. It gets the Byleth taste out of the mouth of those who were disappointed, and gets the sales rolling in.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

You could say Fire Emblem was... a victim of circumstance.

The real victim of circumstance was Advance Wars, Fire Emblem's neglected little sibling.

 

[Lamperouge]

Oh thank god, someone having issues with my hatred for XB2 who doesn't completely write everything off solely due to the sexualization stuff. That's surprisingly rare

Yeah, it might be rather difficult to believe but not all of us are mindless drones.

 

[Dutch Raikuna]

I also have several issues with the gameplay and story, so no, I wasn't insinuating that you hated it sorely for the fanservice.

As someone who did really enjoy the game (and almost pissed a few people off on a plane with it, long story) but can you elaborate a little on why the story and stuff you weren't into? No offence, I'm just a little curious.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I have only one prediction for this pass that I'm confident in. The first 2 or 3 characters will bring hype to the fandom, if they don't, then god save us from this pass and whatever bizarre choices they have picked.

 

[StrawHatX]

You could win the lottery on the same day you discover a cure for cancer, and you still wouldn't have better luck and better timing than FE. Literally every new game since Awakening has came out exactly when it needed to in order to receive a new character.

It’s crazy to me that we got Lucina, Robin, AND Chrom from Awakening in Smash. I don’t have blinding FE hate like a lot of people in the community do. I actually really like the series and enjoy the fighters. But getting all three main characters from the one game is pretty unreal.

 

[Knight Dude]

The real victim of circumstance was Advance Wars, Fire Emblem's neglected little sibling.

I'd only want Andy in for our boy Ura . He's been waiting for too long. Same reason I was happy Chrom was in, since I know he's Opossum 's boy.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yeah, it might be rather difficult to believe but not all of us are mindless drones.

For real bro I even had a dude try to dismiss a criticism of having a similar issue to XBX's poor handling of sidequests by saying "Just look up a guide, problem solved!" I'm not saying all XB2 fans are drones who can't handle criticism but most XB2 fans who disagreed with me certainly didn't think I was allowed to take issues with anything of the game

The real victim of circumstance was Advance Wars, Fire Emblem's neglected little sibling.

Wait till the gacha comes out to let people date anime girl tanks like Kancolle

 

[Wunderwaft]

Wait till the gacha comes out to let people date anime girl tanks like Kancolle

Now that's a monkey's paw if I ever saw one. Now that I think about it weren't there rumors of a mobile Advance Wars game?

 

[I.D.]

I take it you mean you think my issues with the game are solely with Pyra and not the multiple issues I have with the gameplay, story or worldbuilding? People assume that anyone who didn't like XB2 are prudes who cower in fear at seeing boobs after all

Yeah yeah and people who hated on Fire Emblem Awakening relentlessly back in the day also had legit reasons like lack of objectives, plotholes and bla bla bla. They also went away eventually.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Have some you ever just thought that Sakurai just loves Fire Emblem

like REALLY loves it

like "has written articles about it for free to game magazines" loves it

Goes to concerts and expo just for it and gives out speeches

its his favorite series


there is no conspiracy with Byleth getting in.
Dude was probably wheezing in excitement while playing FE3H.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I'd only want Andy in for our boy Ura . He's been waiting for too long. Same reason I was happy Chrom was in, since I know he's Opossum 's boy.

Having both Andy and Sami in would be my ideal.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Have some you ever just thought that Sakurai just loves Fire Emblem

like REALLY loves it

like "has written articles about it for free to game magazines" loves it

Goes to concerts and expo just for it and gives out speeches

its his favorite series


there is no conspiracy with Byleth getting in.
Dude was probably wheezing in excitement while playing FE3H.

I like Fire Emblem but I really can't defend the amount of love it got in Smash. Sakurai loves the series and he gave it a lot of attention, that's all there is to it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Now that's a monkey's paw if I ever saw one. Now that I think about it weren't there rumors of a mobile Advance Wars game?

That person also claimed the Mystery Dungeon remake would happen but claimed we'd get a new Style Savvy game first, so at the same time, they're hit or miss at best

 

[MooMew64]

Have some you ever just thought that Sakurai just loves Fire Emblem

like REALLY loves it

like "has written articles about it for free to game magazines" loves it

Goes to concerts and expo just for it and gives out speeches

its his favorite series


there is no conspiracy with Byleth getting in.
Dude was probably wheezing in excitement while playing FE3H.

And TBH he has excellent taste.

 

[Opossum]

Literally every new game since Awakening has came out exactly when it needed to in order to receive a new character.

Shadows of Valentia didn't get a character.

 

[IceKitsune]

Well it clearly didn't work. Nobody ****ing cares about the second fighter pass now.

I'm sorry but anyone that doesn't care about the second fighters pass or think the first one is not worth it because one character is a complete idiot who wants everything perfectly their way and nothing less will suffice. The idea that the first pass was ruined by having one FE character in it is completely childish. Every other pick in the pass was great and we have six more characters to look forward too. If some people honestly couldn't find anything exciting about the first pass and think there is no chance for any good and interesting characters in the second, just because of one character pick. I don't even know where to begin with them.

I don't even like that Byleth got picked and I'm not that freaking petty.

 

[KillerCage]

Why is everyone complaining about too many FE reps when Mario technically has 9?

Also, I'm saying this right now - we are getting a Sakurai Mii Costume at some point. Just his signature clothes that he wears for each Smash Direct.

im taking a screenshot right now just to be safe

I don't know. Maybe it is because Super Mario is Nintendo's biggest franchise that's only rivaled by Pokemon?

Super Mario>=Pokemon>>Zelda>>>Fire Emblem>>Metroid

Oh don't get me wrong, Xenoblade 2 fans still don't deserve basic human rights

Oh, so you are dunking on people like me who are fans of both Xenoblade Chronicles 1 AND 2?
Why do you have to be so mean to us?

 

[cosmicB]

And for people who nag about Fire Emblem overrepresentation, here's a question: what is your ideal number of Fire Emblem reps?

I'm not one of those people, but if I had my way, no franchise would have more than 3 distinct reps. I don't think there should be a "success multiplier" for any franchise regardless of how big.

But yeah, with FE there's like 600 characters, and even if many are reused archetypes, there's a very big pool to choose from. I think a fair criticism is they keep using the same archetypes, and sometimes even the worst ones among those archetypes (as much as I like Roy in Ultimate, he's the worst protagonist in the franchise). If we had only 3 FE characters and each one represented a different archetype, I think even non-FE fans would be happy.

I can tell you right now that Hector would be EXTREMELY popular even if he was low tier if we went back in time and added him to Brawl. If it was him, Marth, and a lance-user/non-sword mage, FE would probably be pretty well liked by the Smash community.

 

[Nemuresu]

Comparing Fire Emblem to Mario and Pokémon never made sense to me. We're talking about a pair of franchises that have been shining in fame for decades versus one that hasn't really been successful until the 3DS era, and to an extent, still isn't any more of a big deal than it was a few years ago. Not to mention the former ones have been appealing to wider audiences.

The fact that some people still find this as a good argument baffles me.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't know. Maybe it is because Super Mario is Nintendo's biggest franchise that's only rivaled by Pokemon?

Super Mario>=Pokemon>>Zelda>>>Fire Emblem>>Metroid

Oh, so you are dunking on people like me who are fans of both Xenoblade Chronicles 1 AND 2?
Why do you have to be so mean to us?

1 is good, so you're on thin ice

Shadows of Valentia didn't get a character.

If FE was had the bias towards it as everyone claims with constant priority we'd have gotten Twilight of the Gods

 

[staindgrey]

I like Fire Emblem but I really can't defend the amount of love it got in Smash. Sakurai loves the series and he gave it a lot of attention, that's all there is to it.

I can defend it. Here, lemme try.

Multiple characters were chosen out of pure circumstance: Roy to fill out the roster and promote his coming game due to convenient timing and lack of substantial effort, then Lucina due to not working as a Marth skin to Sakurai's liking and, again, filling out the roster.

Corrin was then chosen in much the same way Roy was: in order to promote a coming game because Nintendo saw a huge upswing in Fire Emblem in the west and wanted to capitalize on it. Sakurai wasn't even sure it was a good idea at first, as written in Famitsu (paraphrasing from the English article covering it):

Moving on to Corrin, Sakurai mentions that since they’ve been making DLC for Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS, they’ve been thinking about adding a character from a title that’s about to or just saw release. The game of choice here falls to Fire Emblem Fates, which came out in Japan back in June and will be heading west in February. Sakurai writes that he himself thought they were adding too many characters from Fire Emblem, but after speaking with the development staff, he was assured that Corrin would make for an interesting fighter.

source: https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...-corrin-and-bayonetta-in-smash-bros-wii-u3ds/

Then Ultimate's whole pitch was "EVERYONE IS HERE". Everyone includes every single one, which bolsters FE in particular because that demands clones (Roy, Lucina) and unpopular picks (Corrin) to satisfy that promise. Not to mention Roy was added to Smash 4 due to fan demand, then Chrom to Ultimate, again, due to fan demand.


Let's stop pretending there are no FE fans asking for these characters. There are a lot of them.