Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[GoodGrief741]

One thing I think people are really sleeping on is that the majority of Lloyd's moveset is already in the game - they rep a massive franchise with over 25 million in sales and considerable pull both inside and outside the gaming public of Japan by just adding a model and one unique special.

Just because one character has a move doesn’t mean it can just be ‘ported’ onto another character model. That’s not how it works.

 

[blueneuronDOTnet]

Are his moves on Mii swordfighter?

Aye. The Sword Mii has all of his artes except Beast, and even has a similar build.

Just because one character has a move doesn’t mean it can just be ‘ported’ onto another character model. That’s not how it works.

...Do you know what echo fighters are? They take one character as a preset and then make adjustments to render the character more unique. This could be done with Lloyd and the Sword Mii, and it'd actually take less work than the average echo fighter, as they share both a build and all but one move (Beast, the likely side smash).

 

[GoodGrief741]

Aye. The Sword Mii has all of his artes except Beast, and even has a similar build.


...Do you know what echo fighters are? They take one character as a preset and then make adjustments to render the character more unique. This could be done with Lloyd and the Sword Mii, and it'd actually take less work than the average echo fighter, as they share both a build and all but one move (Beast, the likely side smash).

Echo Fighters also reuse skeletons and have models based on the original fighter. So, unless you’re suggesting Lloyd is an Echo Fighter of the Mii Swordfighter (which wouldn’t work, as they don’t really share proportions, not to mention the fact that Lloyd double wields), then the work on Lloyd would be the same as any original newcomer.

Not to mention, as a third party character, there’s no way Lloyd would be an Echo Fighter. Nor would I want him to be (especially of a Mii Fighter, being an Echo of that is like, the lowest you can probably go.)

 

[blueneuronDOTnet]

Echo Fighters also reuse skeletons and have models based on the original fighter. So, unless you’re suggesting Lloyd is an Echo Fighter of the Mii Swordfighter (which wouldn’t work, as they don’t really share proportions

I just told you that they do. Lloyd's proportions in ToS are essentially just a slightly thicker version of the Sword Mii. See for yourself - ToS Lloyd vs Sword Mii. Speaking as someone with several years of experience with 3D modeling, that's a trivial adjustment and doesn't require much work at all.

not to mention the fact that Lloyd double wields), then the work on Lloyd would be the same as any original newcomer.

Adding a second sword arm takes very little effort, specially if you already have one as it is. Adding a second arm takes one person an hour or two at best, creating a new character takes a team of professionals weeks.

Not to mention, as a third party character, there’s no way Lloyd would be an Echo Fighter

No offense, but that seems like one of those arbitrary rules people love to make up only to have them proven false.

Nor would I want him to be (especially of a Mii Fighter, being an Echo of that is like, the lowest you can probably go.)

I'unno about you, but I'm a pretty damn big Lloyd fan, and I'd love to see him on the roster regardless of whether he's an echo.

 

[Opossum]

Oh god, could you imagine the reputation that'd come with a character being an echo of, of all things, the Mii Swordfighter? One of the more maligned movesets in the game?

 

[GoodGrief741]

I just told you that they do. Lloyd's proportions in ToS are essentially just a slightly thicker version of the Sword Mii. See for yourself - ToS Lloyd vs Sword Mii. Speaking as someone with several years of experience with 3D modeling, that's a trivial adjustment and doesn't require much work at all.

I don’t expect to see Lloyd represented in that style, but something more in line with his artwork, where he looks taller and less cartoony. That’s probably his most recognizable and iconic look.

Adding a second sword arm takes very little effort, specially if you already have one as it is. Adding a second arm takes one person an hour or two at best, creating a new character takes a team of professionals weeks.

I really don’t follow. You’re suggesting that they add a second arm to have it do nothing? If so, that hardly seems like a faithful representation of him. Or maybe you’re suggesting they have him use the second arm? Because then you’re creating a new move, different hitboxes and properties.

No offense, but that seems like one of those arbitrary rules people love to make up only to have them proven false.

Considering how third party characters take negotiating and so on and so forth... I really don’t see Sakurai negotiating with Bamco for the rights to ToS just to include him as an Echo. Sakurai has shown a lot of care and dedication to properly represent third parties in Smash. I’m not saying it’s impossible, just... do you think it’s likely?

I'unno about you, but I'm a pretty damn big Lloyd fan, and I'd love to see him on the roster regardless of whether he's an echo.

You certainly have struck me as probably the biggest Lloyd fan I’ve ever seen. But, and just bear with me for a moment, maybe you’re not exactly representative of his support group? I know you run his support thread, so why not make a poll asking whether people would like him as an Echo Fighter? Especially with the moveset of the Mii Swordfighter, one that’s deliberately designed to be generic and a catch-all. You might be surprised.

Just saying, if a character gets in as an Echo of Mii Fighter, that’s as good as saying you could have made him in the character builder and it would have made no difference quality-wise. That’s not how I’d want to see Lloyd represented.

 

[Idon]

Honestly, wanting your most wanted character in as an echo fighter of someone completely unrelated just reeks of desperation.
Sakurai doesn't ever rework movesets, so that character's going to be stuck with those animations for the rest of Smash's foreseeable future.

 

[blueneuronDOTnet]

I don’t expect to see Lloyd represented in that style, but something more in line with his artwork, where he looks taller and less cartoony. That’s probably his most recognizable and iconic look.

Team Symphonia's Tales artwork always differed from how characters look in-game - Legendia models vs Legendia art, Abyss models vs Abyss art, Hearts models vs Hearts art. I would absolutely argue that Lloyd's in-game model is far more iconic than his anime representation.

I really don’t follow. You’re suggesting that they add a second arm to have it do nothing? If so, that hardly seems like a faithful representation of him. Or maybe you’re suggesting they have him use the second arm? Because then you’re creating a new move, different hitboxes and properties..

What? I'm saying to add the second arm. You do realize that the models don't actually do much, right? Just because there's a second sword there doesn't mean that there's much of a difference in terms of the hitbox, specially considering the nature of Lloyd's artes.

Considering how third party characters take negotiating and so on and so forth... I really don’t see Sakurai negotiating with Bamco for the rights to ToS just to include him as an Echo. Sakurai has shown a lot of care and dedication to properly represent third parties in Smash. I’m not saying it’s impossible, just... do you think it’s likely?

Between the fact that Sakurai has been known to cut corners to ensure inclusion and the way Bamco handles the Tales license, I can absolutely see it happening, and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised.

You certainly have struck me as probably the biggest Lloyd fan I’ve ever seen. But, and just bear with me for a moment, maybe you’re not exactly representative of his support group? I know you run his support thread, so why not make a poll asking whether people would like him as an Echo Fighter? Especially with the moveset of the Mii Swordfighter, one that’s deliberately designed to be generic and a catch-all. You might be surprised.

The argument I'm making isn't that Lloyd's greatest possible representation would be as an echo, it's that he is very likely to be included because even in a worst case scenario, he could be added with minimal effort in exchange for a major pay-off. It's not about how he's represented, it's about how easily they could pander to an enormous fan base.

Far as being representative goes - I'm neither a Nintendo fan, nor a Smash fan, nor a Tales fan, so I have no doubt that I'm an outlier.

Just saying, if a character gets in as an Echo of Mii Fighter, that’s as good as saying you could have made him in the character builder and it would have made no difference quality-wise. That’s not how I’d want to see Lloyd represented.

I definitely disagree - if what you said was true, we wouldn't have seen the kind of support for echos like Dark Samus and Chrom that we've seen. Inclusion as a proper character goes beyond just having an entirely original moveset, and Lloyd would be a bit of a unique case anyway given just how well the Sword Mii's build and moveset fit him.

Honestly, wanting your most wanted character in as an echo fighter of someone completely unrelated just reeks of desperation. Sakurai doesn't ever rework movesets, so that character's going to be stuck with those animations for the rest of Smash's foreseeable future.

Not much of an issue given that the Sword Mii's moveset could just as well have been ripped straight from Tales of Symphonia. No, really, look for yourself. Beast (side smash) and the final smash are the only aspects of Lloyd's potential moveset that aren't represented.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Between the fact that Sakurai has been known to cut corners to ensure inclusion and the way Bamco handles the Tales license, I can absolutely see it happening, and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised.

Look, I’m not going to argue anymore. But it is pretty insulting to say that Sakurai has been known to cut corners. Like, what??? This man has gone above and beyond multiple times, to great lengths, to ensure we get to play the best possible version of the game he can put out. Some people only play Final Destination? Fine, let’s give them Omega versions of every stage, and add Battlefield versions as well, even if that requires making over 300 stages. People want Mega Man in the game? Alright, let’s painstakingly recreate the way he plays, moves and looks from the original NES games. For every veteran cut, somebody complains? Alright then, let’s have every single playable character from the series back, plus newcomers. And if somebody can’t be playable, then let’s at least give them an AT. Dude has been trying to figure out Ridley since the Brawl era just to be able to give fans the character they want. He has resigned himself to barely being able to work on other games because people will ask him for Smash. He has resigned himself to not being able to use social media or talk about games he likes, because people will take it as hints for Smash. Insane fans have sent him death threats because a character they want didn’t get in. The guy has worked his life and health away for this, hardly taking vacations, and even when he says a game will be his last, he knows it’s not true because the fans will want him back and he will be.

I’m sorry about the rant, but saying he’s known to cut corners? That’s just massively disrespectful.

 

[randy2dope]

will Mii fighters get costumes this time around ? The smash ballot seems to be the heart of the character selection process for this game. Even in the recent Column interview Sakurai did post direct he said chrom was popular in Japan and Dark Samus was overseas. The majority of the Mii fighter costumes in Wii U were popular ballot votes and were seeing them become fighters now. So besides the generic outfits in the Wii u I don't see the cosplay Mii fighter costumes returning. I wouldn't be surprised if costumes were gone altogether given that custom moves seem gone for good.

 

[ProjectDream]

will Mii fighters get costumes this time around ? The smash ballot seems to be the heart of the character selection process for this game. Even in the recent Column interview Sakurai did post direct he said chrom was popular in Japan and Dark Samus was overseas. The majority of the Mii fighter costumes in Wii U were popular ballot votes and were seeing them become fighters now. So besides the generic outfits in the Wii u I don't see the cosplay Mii fighter costumes returning. I wouldn't be surprised if costumes were gone altogether given that custom moves seem gone for good.

Pretty sure they will, I don't see why they'd remove it.

Those rumours of a minecraft inclusion to the game lead me to believe there's like a Steve costume for Mii Fighters with a diamond sword for Swordsmen or something.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Oh god, could you imagine the reputation that'd come with a character being an echo of, of all things, the Mii Swordfighter? One of the more maligned movesets in the game?

In before Geno is confirmed Mii Gunner's echo

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76928398?jumpto=100#100

Vergeben is at it again (yes the real Vergeben)

Second Square Enix rep

From possible it has to be either zack or geno

 

[RileyXY1]

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76928398?jumpto=100#100

Vergeben is at it again (yes the real Vergeben)

Second Square Enix rep

From possible it has to be either zack or geno

There's also Sora, who frequently places high in demand polls.

 

[zferolie]

Saw the Verge info. I think its safe to assume its Geno, unless SE really don't want him and rather rep their hugely popular dragon quest series. Either works.

So I know its a bit of a pip dream, but I still like the idea of 13 more coming, 6 newcomers and 7 echos. This would give us 84, which fits in the Smash out or whatever that mode is that only lets you use a character once. I assumed they would want, for the base game, a number divisible by 2, 3, and 4, and 84 is the next one after 72, and I doubt we are only getting 1 more. So my wishlist(with some pretty likely ones) are as follows.

Newcomers:
Shantae(Very high ranking in the ballot it seems, an indie rep with a long nintendo history, Her jammies mode teasing smash like Rodin did for Bayonetta, Wayforward has allowed shantae in a lot of indie crossover games but not a single fighting one most likely due to a exclusivity deal, and Wayforward has been eerily quiet about anything smash, not even liking or responding to comments about it.

Geno(With Vergeben saying this, plus Geno has been wanted for ages, most likely was VERY high on the Ballot, got a mii costume last game, and with other fan requests like Ridley and K Rool in this just seems like a certainty)

Elma(Sakurai is a huge Xenoblade fan, has posted on twitter about buying a mecha toy that looks like her mech and has shown in the past to use toys to help make the characters in smash, Rex and Pyra are just too new and will most likely be DLC due to their designs probably not finished in time)

A pokemon Rep(Either Gardevoir with a Gothitelle echo if that one leak is right, or Incineroar. Gardevoir has not been seen in a pokeball yet and is one of the most popular Gen 3 pokemon, People have been wanting past gens to get repped and a Gardevoir with Gothitelle Echo is a good way to rep gen 3 and 5. Inciniroar is one of the more popular new gen pokemon, has been planned for Ash to get one since the start like with Greninja so the pokemon company could push him, a wrestler type fighter is not in the game yet and could be a great way to get a grappler into this game, which is lacking. If Gardevoir is in I can see Inciniroar being very early or first DLC)

Banjo and Kazooie(Nintendo and Microsoft are very buddy buddy now, Sakurai wanted Banjo for Melee but was worried due to licenseing, Very high fan demand and Sakurai is looking at the Ballot a lot).

EITHER Skull kid OR Hikari and Donbe or any other retro(Skull kid is very popular. Moon is an Assist trophy and no sign of skull kid, Sakurai's chairs could be teasing him(or Shantae same color scheme), is a villain which nintendo seems to be pushing.) (Hikari and Donbe is a personal one I want, a retor character and we haven't seen any true retro characters yet, Did get outfits for Mario Maker, has had music in the game since Brawl)

Echos:
Isabelle-Villager echo(Assist trophy is missing and a new AC AT is in, HUGELY popular, Nintendo pushes her a lot, is the face of animal crossing, could work well as a Villager echo with just subbing out some items for others and maybe adding some new effects to her attacks to make her seem more gentle or accidently fighting at times.

Dixie-Diddy echo(End of K Rool trailer is hinting with Donkey and Diddy trapped and can see an extended one of that being Dixie jumping in to save them, Can easily use all of Diddy's moves, With CHrome we know that Dixie can replace rocket jet pack with her hair twril which works like DOnkey Kongs up B, was planned to be in the last game, highly voted on the ballot.)

Shadow-Sonic Echo(AT is missing and Knuckles is an AT, very easy echo to make, widely popular)

Medusa-Palutena Echo(A female villian and a KI villain rep as this game seems to be putting in more villains, can easily fit Palutena's play style with just changing some effects and using one of Palutena's old custom moves for herself(Heavenly light but dark themed)

Akuma-Ryu Echo(Ken seems to be floating around but a friend of mine made some great points for Akuma. He is the original capcom crossover character with appearing in X-men children of the atom, he has crossed over to Tekken as well, a bunch of ryu's moves in smash Akuma does but not Ken, is a Villain)

Black Shadow-Captain Falcon Echo(No F-zerp reps since N64, Villain, an echo fighter would be the easiest way to fit a new F-Zero character in the game)

Gothitelle IF GARDEVOIR IS IN, or Ninten-Ness Echo(If that 1 rumor is to be believed then Gardevoir would have Gothitelle as an echo, She would rep gen 5 and all but gen 7 would be repped, is supposidly decently popular in japan, can easily be an echo of Gardevoir with silular body type and lots of simular attacks and manerisims.) (Earthbound has not gotten a rep in awhile, and Mother 1 getting an rep would mean each game has 1 rep.)

 

[blueneuronDOTnet]

I’m sorry about the rant, but saying he’s known to cut corners? That’s just massively disrespectful.

Sneaking in characters deserving of inclusion last minute by making them clones, turning planned characters into assist trophies due to time restraints in order to ensure that their series still gets some representation - Sakurai has a long history of cutting corners to ensure inclusion. That doesn't mean that he doesn't work hard, but don't let your Sakurai boner get in the way of simple fact.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Sneaking in characters deserving of inclusion last minute by making them clones, turning planned characters into assist trophies due to time restraints in order to ensure that their series still gets some representation - Sakurai has a long history of cutting corners to ensure inclusion. That doesn't mean that he doesn't work hard, but don't let your Sakurai boner get in the way of simple fact.

That is not cutting corners.

Making a last minute clone, that couldn’t have been a unique newcomer due to time constraints, isn’t cutting corners. It’s working extra to make an additional character.

Turning a planned character into an Assist Trophy due to time constraints isn’t cutting corners. It’s making sure fans of those characters don’t feel shafted, in a way that doesn’t require the game to be delayed.

Cutting corners would be to just remove that content at all. What you’re talking about is extra work. I’m tired of entitled fans thinking they’re owed just because the character they wanted got in as an AT or clone. Nobody owes you anything.

I won’t reply to you anymore though.

 

[blueneuronDOTnet]

That is not cutting corners.

Making a last minute clone, that couldn’t have been a unique newcomer due to time constraints, isn’t cutting corners. It’s working extra to make an additional character.

Turning a planned character into an Assist Trophy due to time constraints isn’t cutting corners. It’s making sure fans of those characters don’t feel shafted, in a way that doesn’t require the game to be delayed.

Cutting corners would be to just remove that content at all. What you’re talking about is extra work. I’m tired of entitled fans thinking they’re owed just because the character they wanted got in as an AT or clone. Nobody owes you anything.

I won’t reply to you anymore though.

Sorry, but downgrading planned content isn't extra work, it is - by definition - cutting corners. It's one thing to admire Sakurai for his work ethic and appreciate the work he's done, but it's another to be so zealous in his defense that you blind yourself to the truth. No one is saying that he doesn't work hard, but you're trying to make an emotionally charged argument to counter semantics that objectively apply here.

 

[Opossum]

Sorry, but downgrading planned content isn't extra work, it is - by definition - cutting corners. It's one thing to admire Sakurai for his work ethic and appreciate the work he's done, but it's another to be so zealous in his defense that you blind yourself to the truth. No one is saying that he doesn't work hard, but you're trying to make an emotional argument to counter semantics that objectively apply here.

At this point I'm convinced you're too far into your pro-Lloyd bias.

 

[blueneuronDOTnet]

At this point I'm convinced you're too far into your pro-Lloyd bias.

I don't think this has anything to do with Lloyd. Sakurai has both cut and downgraded planned content in the past to ensure inclusion, which is the definition of cutting corners. I get that a lot of people here love to go nuts for Sakurai, and I do admit that he's a hard worker, but he's still subject to deadlines like everyone else. Acting like this isn't cutting corners is delusional.

 

[Opossum]

I don't think this has anything to do with Lloyd. Sakurai has both cut and downgraded planned content in the past to ensure inclusion, which is the definition of cutting corners. I get that a lot of people here love to go nuts for Sakurai, and I do admit that he's a hard worker, but he's still subject to deadlines like everyone else. Acting like this isn't cutting corners is delusional.

You seem really keen on the thought that everyone here worships Sakurai like a god. I definitely don't. You're attacking a straw man.

 

[BonafideFella]

That is not cutting corners.

Making a last minute clone, that couldn’t have been a unique newcomer due to time constraints, isn’t cutting corners. It’s working extra to make an additional character.

Turning a planned character into an Assist Trophy due to time constraints isn’t cutting corners. It’s making sure fans of those characters don’t feel shafted, in a way that doesn’t require the game to be delayed.

Cutting corners would be to just remove that content at all. What you’re talking about is extra work. I’m tired of entitled fans thinking they’re owed just because the character they wanted got in as an AT or clone. Nobody owes you anything.

I won’t reply to you anymore though.

Perhaps I'm being a bit lightheaded, but I can't recall any instance of planned characters becoming assist trophies. Closest thing I can think of is Takamaru, and even then there's no proof he was planned, just considered.
Usually, when characters are planned and then scrapped for time, they just appear in the next game. (Wario, Bowser, Mewtwo, etc.)

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

There's also Sora, who frequently places high in demand polls.

I didn’t say Sora is because of the roadblocks

Besides geno demand is probably higher easily and Sakurai is one of them

As a matter of fact verge also gave the quote “the one you know”

 

[GoodGrief741]

Perhaps I'm being a bit lightheaded, but I can't recall any instance of planned characters becoming assist trophies. Closest thing I can think of is Takamaru, and even then there's no proof he was planned, just considered.
Usually, when characters are planned and then scrapped for time, they just appear in the next game. (Wario, Bowser, Mewtwo, etc.)

You know, I can’t either. Guess that goes to show how far people will go to make stuff up that proves their point.

 

[Fane]

I'm hoping Sakurai's remarks on how he chose fighters this time around(based on the ballot) really kills that stupid Gothitelle/Gardevoir leak.

I'm seeing too many people back it up simply because of Richter, and they're going as far to say "Gothitelle is popular in Japan, so that works out" despite Gothitelle being ranked ~480/800. The bottom half of the entirety of the Pokemon roster. Like... If Sakurai wanted a Pokemon Echo from Gen 5, Oshawott would be a way better choice. It has popularity and can take from Squirtle's moveset. Plus, all Echoes currently have been extremely popular among the Smash community, besides Richter, but he's a Castlevania icon in Japan. Simon/Richter was basically hitting two birds with one stone. Pleasing both the eastern and western sides of the world.

Regardless, I feel like we're either getting a Gen 7 Pokemon or Sceptile at this point. Really depends on if Sakurai chose to go for a new Pokemon or a ballot placer. I'm hoping for Sceptile, but this is mostly because it happens to be my favorite starter of all time, and I feel like Gen 3 deserves the rep far more than Gen 7. Plus, I'd love for them to release a Gen 8 Pokemon as DLC as a 'newer' Pokemon rep.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I'm hoping Sakurai's remarks on how he chose fighters this time around(based on the ballot) really kills that stupid Gothitelle/Gardevoir leak.

I'm seeing too many people back it up simply because of Richter, and they're going as far to say "Gothitelle is popular in Japan, so that works out" despite Gothitelle being ranked ~480/800. The bottom half of the entirety of the Pokemon roster. Like... If Sakurai wanted a Pokemon Echo from Gen 5, Oshawott would be a way better choice. It has popularity and can take from Squirtle's moveset. Plus, all Echoes currently have been extremely popular among the Smash community, besides Richter, but he's a Castlevania icon in Japan. Simon/Richter was basically hitting two birds with one stone. Pleasing both the eastern and western sides of the world.

Regardless, I feel like we're either getting a Gen 7 Pokemon or Sceptile at this point. Really depends on if Sakurai chose to go for a new Pokemon or a ballot placer. I'm hoping for Sceptile, but this is mostly because it happens to be my favorite starter of all time, and I feel like Gen 3 deserves the rep far more than Gen 7. Plus, I'd love for them to release a Gen 8 Pokemon as DLC as a 'newer' Pokemon rep.

Well fair point since the ballot is being used to select newcomers for this one

I mean Gardevoir I can see being pulled from the ballot since that’s a really popular Pokemon even to this day

But hard to believe Gothitelle would get a ticket from the ballot

But remind the though it’s only because of gen 5 and can echo Gardevoir easily and also he may make a Pokémon of one of each gen playable sinc that’s a really high request in the ballot (at least one from each generation of pokemon)

But it doesn’t matter not all of the newcomers will spawn from the ballot

 

[SmashChu]

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76928398?jumpto=100#100

Vergeben is at it again (yes the real Vergeben)

Second Square Enix rep

From possible it has to be either zack or geno

As always, when he comes up, I would say consider it fake until proven otherwise,

I'm sure a lot of people will be hanging on his every word after Simon was announced, but one thing people don't know about the "leakers" is they love to embellish. Remember Laura Dale and how it seemed like she had a rumor every other day. Even if Rabbids was eventually shown off, most of the rumors she posted ended up being bogus. Verge does the same thing. Look at his Soul Caliber stuff. Despite some of the earlier stuff being at least semi-accurate, he is now totally wrong about everything he post about the game. People in the community seem to think that he knew some things before but the well dried up but he craves attention. Its no surprise he's becoming more active as people are hanging on his every word.

Also, be wary of anything that isn't direct. This just sounds like a guess to be honest. Same goes for people saying something wont be in. Unless they know the whole thing, they wouldn't know what is not there.

 

[spoilerowl]

The thing about Vergeben is that he's made it clear he has multiple sources, and while his other games have been all over the place he is still good so far on Ultimate. While yes we shouldn't take his word as law, he is definitely the closest thing we have to a credible leaker. Especially since loz has fallen off and just started randomly speculating.

That being said, if it's between Geno and Sora I'm definitely picking Geno, because Sora has many additional roadblocks thanks to Disney.

My money is still firmly on Isaac, Skull Kid, and Geno as newcomers. There's Banjo & Kazooie too, but I'm less confident in them. Throw in Verg and we still have a Gen 7 Pokemon, as well as Isabelle and Ken as Echoes. And then the other Echoes I'd place my bets on are Shadow and Dixie.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Well from the ballot I might keep an eye on black knight since he’s in the same package as King K. Rool and we want more villians and black knight could be one of the characters who got decent votes

And black knight practically said in the game that he shares techniques from Ike even their swords are exactly the same too

So Ike echo could happen.
(Only consider not lock it)

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I’m far more OK with the idea of Black Knight as an Ike echo in the game. The first of which being it would just be really cool to get any sort of villain from Fire Emblem in to help diversify the cast in the tiniest of ways. Second, it would be adding another sword user, but in the only way I see additional Sword users from Fire Emblem getting in. Until we get a more unique and different class FE character, I think we should stick to Echo fighters for the series.

I’ll give an exception to Lyn because she is still insanely popular and from an older part of the series, but she’s already an assist unfortunately.

And then most of all I want people to melt down over 8 FE characters despite the fact that three would just be Echo fighters in this scenario.

I do love Path of Radiance, so I say bring him on even if I ultimately don’t really expect this one to come true.

 

[Starbound]

Black Knight would be a cool echo now that we know animations can change. I know Ike is really heavy, but Black Knight just wouldn't be agile enough for some of his animations.

That said, my most wanted FE character is Celica, even if she's a Robin echo. FE really needs some more non-FatesWakening.

Hell, I'll take both and Edelgard DLC. Fire Emblem really lends itself well to the Smash format. 10 characters would be a lot, but as long as they're all fun, I really don't care.

 

[Purple_PyrOZ]

The knight (from hollow knight)

Although this character may be from an indie game, it is found on the nintendo switch and had great sales, as well as that, during E3 nintendo's love for this game (or at least only reggie's love) has been shown by how reggie himself gave hollow knight a short speech on the E3.

Another thing that is really luring me to this character getting in would be how unique the soul aspect would be, fitting perfectly with inkling's new way of attacking, using ink.
However, the way i see it the knight would be a lot more of an offensive character, attacking other fighters, assist trophies or bosses to gain soul to use attacks which would co-work with the more defencive style the inklings give to players.

Now, moveset wise, i do believe that a moveset for this character could be made without much effort into making the moveset creative and not just another sword weilder.
Of course, the knight would still have his nail, but as well as that some moves could use his dream shield as a sort of counter and his recovery could always be variations of the in-game charms.

Now, for a bit more on the wants side...
In hollow knight, upon death a shade is left, which i think could be kind of a creative concept for the smash games.
The way i see it could work is that upon death, the shade appears and the knight is not able to gain as much soul as they normally can, as happens in the game. Then once the knight defeats him, he gains a bit of soul and the ability to hold just as much soul as normal.

Skin wise, it could easily show as different vessels and half vessels in the game, such as: broken vessel, hornet and the hollow knight (boss).

Sadly... there are a lot of negatives:
firstly, he is an indie game character, and there are a lot more asked for by the fans, that sakurai would add before the knight
secondly, the knight is the star of one game, and yes it may have been successful on the switch but that doesn't change the fact that the knight had a short life span in the gaming world, and that not many people know about him.
finally, in my opinion the biggest reason, hollow knight was on the switch only a month so far, and so it may have not come out on the switch or on any nintendo console early enough to gain a following.

Due to all this, I rate:

chance: 2%

Want: 95%

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

I think it's weird that Paula and Kumatora got in as part of Ness and Lucas's final smashes but not as echoes. Since they would probably be the most obvious echoes, for the same reason as Richter, almost all of Ness and Lucas's moves actually belong to them. So it makes me think there will probably be a Ness or Lucas echo besides them, maybe Ninten or even Claus/The Masked Man. Or else I can't see why they wouldn't be chosen. Also there are four EarthBound stages and at least one new EarthBound item, and there may be some new assist trophies or maybe Porky comes back as a boss, so it seems like there is enough content to justify an echo or even two.

 

[StormC]

I think it's weird that Paula and Kumatora got in as part of Ness and Lucas's final smashes but not as echoes. Since they would probably be the most obvious echoes, for the same reason as Richter, almost all of Ness and Lucas's moves actually belong to them. So it makes me think there will probably be a Ness or Lucas echo besides them, maybe Ninten or even Claus/The Masked Man. Or else I can't see why they wouldn't be chosen. Also there are four EarthBound stages and at least one new EarthBound item, and there may be some new assist trophies or maybe Porky comes back as a boss, so it seems like there is enough content to justify an echo or even two.

Not every character that could be an echo will be one.

Also, Kumatora wouldn't fit Lucas' proportions. And she can't really be downsized because, well... he's a kid and she's an adult.

 

[Lightspeed53]

Howdy everyone, I’m new ‘round these parts. But, I’ll give this a shot with some of the big names being flung around over yonder (youtube).

1. Shadow the Hedgehog
Game of Origin: Sonic Adventure 2
Status: 3rd party, owned by Sega
Now, personally, I love Shadow. I grew up during the Gamecube’s hayday, so every morning as a little kid I’d play Sonic Adventure 2. Keep that in mind, as it means I have just a tad of bias. The fact that Shadow’s assist trophy was absent last direct is fishy to me, he’s a big enough character that they wouldn’t cut him completely, so seems to me that the next logical step would be playable character. On top of that, Knuckles seems to have replaced him as a Sonic assist trophy, and SSBU seems to be going for a Heroes vs. Villains motif (King K. Rool trailer), and beside Eggman, Shadow is an iconic Sonic villain, if not antihero. Everything’s just coming up Shadow in my eyes, so:

Chance: 90%
Want: 100%


2. Skull Kid
GoO: The Legend Of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Status: 1st party
Don’t hate me for this. I don’t think Skull Kid will be a playable character. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see it happen, but it’s just not doin it for me. I think Skull Kid would do better as a boss in Boss Battle/Spirits/Subspace Emissary, as he’s a big name but not too big, and an iconic Zelda villain beside the big G himself. He’d have a fun and interesting progression as a boss battle, as that was his prominent appearance in LoZMM, and he just seems a little too overpowered to put in the base roster. As such, here goes:

Chance as Playable: 40%
Chance as Boss: 80%
Want as Playable: 50%
Want as Boss: 95%

3. Dr. Eggman
GoO: Sonic the Hedgehog
Status: 3rd party, owned by Sega
Eggman may come as a surprise to some of you, and I get that. He isn’t really a big name right now, but I wanted to rate him anyway, so as to convey my thoughts on what Sakurai could do with the character. Eggman is an iconic villain, on par with the likes of Bowser, Ganondorf, and Dr. Wily. I like him as a character, and think he’s been under appreciated as a villain. THIS IS THE MAN THAT BLEW UP HALF THE MOON, PEOPLE. But, taking all that into consideration, he’s not fit for Smash as a fighter. Eggman has always been more suited to being a boss, so I’d prefer it if he’d appear as a boss, like Dracula and Rathalos. His Death Egg Robot is an easy choice, and has plenty of nostalgia value. Now that I think about it, I’d love to see the Death Egg or the Egg Carrier appear as a stage.

Chance as Playable: 0%
Chance as Boss: 80%
Want as Playable: 1%
Want as Boss: 99%


4. Bandanna Dee
GoO: Kirby’s Dream Land (I think)
Status: 1st party
I love Bandanna, I love him to bits. I think he has pretty good chances, having a viable moveset, a great fanbase, and decent demand. He could play into the Heroes vs. Villains story as Kirby’s uneasy ally against King Dedede and Meta Knight, and just add a really unique dynamic, being the loyal underling of the villain but a friend of the protagonist. But enough of that, onto the stats:

Chance: 65%
Want: 85%



5. Banjo & Kazooie
GoO: Banjo Kazooie
Status: 3rd party, owned by Microsoft
At this point, I’d be shocked if B&K didn’t get in. They were major players in the Smash Ballot, they’ve been wanted since Melee, and they’re viable mascots of Microsoft, alongside the likes of Master Chief and Steve. They represent the bygone era of the N64 and PS1, and they have a moveset just dying for Smash. Hell, I’ll even take them as an echo for Duck Hunt.

Chance: 99.999999...% (you can’t predict Sakurai)
Want: 100%



More later on, Peace!

 

[UserKev]

2. Skull Kid
GoO: The Legend Of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Status: 1st party
Don’t hate me for this. I don’t think Skull Kid will be a playable character. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see it happen, but it’s just not doin it for me. I think Skull Kid would do better as a boss in Boss Battle/Spirits/Subspace Emissary, as he’s a big name but not too big, and an iconic Zelda villain beside the big G himself. He’d have a fun and interesting progression as a boss battle, as that was his prominent appearance in LoZMM, and he just seems a little too overpowered to put in the base roster. As such, here goes:

More later on, Peace!

Do you know how many characters are canonically OP in their individual series? If anything, the hero usually becomes more powerful than the villain by the end of the game.

 

[Lightspeed53]

Do you know how many characters are canonically OP in their individual series? If anything, the hero usually becomes more powerful than the villain by the end of the game.

No, I know. Kirby can beat Majin Buu, for God’s sake. I’m just saying that I think Skull Kid would do better as a boss than a fighter

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I think we've started to get a little too on the Banjo Kazooie hype train recently (The Smash speculation community as a whole). Yes, he is an insanely popular choice and request to many fans. He is just that iconic for fans of the N64 era. But ever since King K Rool people have been severely overestimating his chances I believe.

First off, King K Rool was Rare created, but continued to be Nintendo owned. I think a lot of people know that here, but I've seen it used as an argument already. Second, the Microsoft/Nintendo relationship is likely a lot more complex than a typical third party relationship. They are competing companies (Regardless of how much Nintendo pretends they aren't) with lots of interests vying for different things. Phil Spencer doesn't speak for the entirety of the company and its choices, so his allowing the character in is still several steps removed from a confirmation of the character.

This is a Smash that is using the ballot and pandering to longtime fans, no doubt about that (Finally). And Banjo Kazooie had to do well, but treating him like a lock for the lineup? That's a bit of a stretch at this point. The Microsoft/Nintendo relationship for cross play has been great, but it also serves the purpose of playing good PR for both of them and hitting Sony hard for not supporting the idea of cross play. I don't think you can read in to that as at all relevant to Smash. The Halo content in Minecraft also results of that cross play and the way they're taking Minecraft forward as one universal system on all platforms that support it. Minecraft is it's own entity at this point despite Microsoft now having ownership of it. So, again, I don't think any of those recent events necessarily help or hurt his chances.

I will say Nintendo and Microsoft have been behaving very well recently, doing lots of things to try and please fans in a myriad of ways. That's one of the bigger arguments I'll give towards Banjo Kazooie in Smash. He was popular in the ballot, and absolutely is still a huge request. And Sakurai is by far the mad man who is most likely to try to give fans what they want through a crazy and complicated licensing deal to get him in.

I want to be absolutely wrong, and would celebrate the arrival of Banjo Kazooie with so much fanfare. He's a huge part of my childhood playing on the N64 that I pretty much bought just to play the original and Goldeneye. But the way a lot of people are treating him as a lock for the base roster feels just a little bit too much like wishful thinking. He has the best chance he's ever had, and that in of itself is amazing, but let's keep that particular expectation in check for now. He absolutely deserves it, and the fans want it, but let's hold back a little on that excitement for the time being.

 

[Questionmark222]

Just dropping my expectations for the remaining echoes:

/Dixie - There's probably a considerable amount of Ballot support backing her up. Also, the fact that Chrom shares his Up B has put aside my biggest concern about Dixie's chances, being the assumption (that was destroyed by the August direct) that "an echo fighter has to be 1-to-1 to the original". This means that DK's Up B can easily be pasted on to Dixie's Hair Spin ability: then, give her the Gumball Popgun as a Neutral B and she's good to go.
/Isabelle - Her Assist is currently MIA, and she's arguably the most important Nintendo character that hasn't gotten into Smash as of right now (Toad aside). As for the "pacifist" argument, her facial expressions would just need a slight touch-up to make her look like she's dropping Villager's attacks by accident.
/Shadow - Obviously, his Assist is MIA as well. And since Richter broke the "3rd parties can't get echoes" fan rule...
/Ken - The OG echo. Historical significance right there.Also, Capcom seems very collaborative with Ultimate (given the Mega Man, Street Fighter and Monster Hunter content already in the game).

I know, I'm playing it pretty safe, but these four just seem to make the most sense ATM.

 

[Graizen]

Agumon could have a BlackAgumon echo that evolves to BlackWarGreymon.
People love BlackWarGreymon.