Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Michael the Spikester]

I didn't. I was an SNK Fangirl before Terry got into Smash.

Well then again that was probably because I never really paid attention to him nor had I seen him requested frequently or brought up lots before the whole SNK leak.

I dunno then again maybe I'm not looking everywhere that's Smash related.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

On the topic of Lara Croft, which version do you think they would base her off of for Smash, new or old? Perhaps a composite of the two?

 

[Deleted member]

Okay. A few things about this.

1. I fail to see how the roster isn't diverse already. I'm not being facetious about this either. We have dragons, mutants, robots, plants, magicians, anthropomorphic animals, children, regular animals, witches, angels, goddesses, gods, plumbers, and ninjas, just to name a few. They shoot fire, guns, lightning and water; wield swords, axes, and bows; are good, evil, or neutral in their moral alignment; and are female, male, or have no gender. Some of them are royalty and some of them had humble beginnings; some of them are extremely powerful and some of them are incredibly weak; some prefer to work in teams while others prefer to work alone. They are characters that are kind, cruel, dastardly, brave, courageous, independent, cowardly, silly, serious, strategic, clever, impatient, resourceful, beautiful, ugly, intelligent, stupid, disgusting, happy, violent, optimistic, rash, benevolent, peaceful, organized, hilarious, heroic, destructive, and hairy. If the reason you haven't purchased this game is because you can't identify with one of the 80+ characters, then I doubt you can identify with anyone or anything. This is a pretty diverse spectrum.

2. I find it incredibly hard to believe that anyone is waiting for a character with a certain arbitrary personality or character trait to join before they purchase the game. I'll go a step further and say that I doubt that adding a character with said trait(s) will cause someone to break into the fighting game genre, decide to be a Switch owner, or start playing video games that wasn't already before (or at least very much on the fence alresdy). It's not like a lesbian is somewhere just waiting for CNN to report Tracer was added to Smash, or a PoC is waiting for Kotaku to report that Twintelle was invited to the party. This premise is ridiculous. Will it appease some fans? Sure, I guess. But not as much as Geno, Doomguy, Crash or Lara Croft would.

3. If people are really this hung up on their very narrow ideas of what qualifies as "diversity", I recommend that they pull their head out of their ideologies and enjoy reality. There are so many interesting and exciting characters that are in Smash and gaming in general! These characters (their stories, worlds, abilities, personalities, franchises, and supporting actors) are so complex and interesting that it would be a real shame to miss out on that just because of their race, sexual orientation, gender, or some other criteria. Tracer, Cyrax, Kerrigan, Lara Croft, and Samus Aran are some of my favorite video game characters. I am a male, straight, and Caucasian. I am not allowed to like them because I don't identify with these arbitrary standards? Of course not! That's preposterous. And even if a character was chosen for a reason like this, fans would never be satisfied. These kind of people will always find something to be offended about. It will never be good enough.

TL;DR: I think adding characters for the sake of fulfilling someone's idea of diversity is ludicrous, unprofitable, and unnecessary. I guarantee it's not how Sakurai and Nintendo are choosing characters, so it best to abandon that thought process all together.

This is the DLC we're talking about. And I believe that my idea of diversity is also the kind of diversity some people want. Just one female character that's easy to ask? It's simple.

I just don't like the idea that females are being left out.

 

[Deleted member]

On the topic of Lara Croft, which version do you think they would base her off of for Smash, new or old? Perhaps a composite of the two?

I would believe either a composite or both of her versions as different alts. I could imagine Sakurai pushing for the classic while SE pushing for the modern.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I think they'd go for her classic. Only question is what'd be her Final Smash?

 

[Deleted member]

In case anyone wants to call me out for being narrow-minded, it's not that I seek diversity as a general outlook. I know we will never reach the diversity I seek, but the thing is, I don't want to female to be left out. I just want just one...and every day, I read these posts and it just breaks my heart, every day, knowing that the chances are so slim.

What I'm asking for is just one and I'll not give two cents on anyone else's wants. Y'all can have your Hayas, Doom Slayers, Dantes, etc

 

[Michael the Spikester]

In case anyone wants to call me out for being narrow-minded, it's not that I seek diversity as a general outlook. I know we will never reach the diversity I seek, but the thing is, I don't want to female to be left out. I just want just one...and every day, I read these posts and it just breaks my heart, every day, knowing that the chances are so slim.

What I'm asking for is just one and I'll not give two cents on anyone else's wants. Y'all can have your Hayas, Doom Slayers, Dantes, etc

I'm with you on needing more female reps. I don't expect any in this pass but definitely post-pass for sure.

I also don't think you're narrow-minded at all. From what I've seen from you. You seem like a really swell person passionate about what you want in Smash (In this case more female characters).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think they'd go for her classic. Only question is what'd be her Final Smash?

A T-Rex?

 

[Plank08]

[QUOTE="LesleDoomguy:
"WTF WHERE'S MY GIRLS AT? SEXIST! **** THIS FIGHTERS PASS! EWW...EVERY OTHER FIGHTING GAME OFFERED GIRLS WHILE SMASH IS STILL STUCK WITH BOYS. SHAME ON THE GAMING COMMUNITY. JUST ONE FEMALE FIGHTER IS ALL I ASK! BOYCOTT SMASH! CANCEL FIGHTERS PASS 2! LOOK AT THAT! IT'S SO ****ING EASY!

Jill/Morrigan/etc.:
"FINALLY **** YES WE GOT A FEMALE FIGHTER LEZZZ GOOOO"
Others: "Where's my Doonguy and Haya and stuff? This is bull****! Waste of a character slot! Who wants this? **** YOU LESLEY AND YOU'RE STUPID FEMINIST BULL****!"

Sorry for the all-caps rage. It's just....a demonstration.[/QUOTE]

Ok now I’m kind of curious, why are you hating on Doomguy specifically?

 

[Deleted member]

[QUOTE="LesleDoomguy:
"WTF WHERE'S MY GIRLS AT? SEXIST! **** THIS FIGHTERS PASS! EWW...EVERY OTHER FIGHTING GAME OFFERED GIRLS WHILE SMASH IS STILL STUCK WITH BOYS. SHAME ON THE GAMING COMMUNITY. JUST ONE FEMALE FIGHTER IS ALL I ASK! BOYCOTT SMASH! CANCEL FIGHTERS PASS 2! LOOK AT THAT! IT'S SO ****ING EASY!

Jill/Morrigan/etc.:
"FINALLY **** YES WE GOT A FEMALE FIGHTER LEZZZ GOOOO"
Others: "Where's my Doonguy and Haya and stuff? This is bull****! Waste of a character slot! Who wants this? **** YOU LESLEY AND YOU'RE STUPID FEMINIST BULL****!"

Sorry for the all-caps rage. It's just....a demonstration.

Ok now I’m kind of curious, why are you hating on Doomguy specifically?[/QUOTE]
It's not that I hate on Doomguy. Why the hell does everyone think that as much as I'm a feminist doesn't mean I'll shun down his chances.

I know how iconic he is. I know how you chose him to be your 2nd Western rep. But the problem is that I don't want to see a pass that is purely male. I don't want to see this homogenous pass of male characters. I don't want females being left out.

You can have him in Season 2. I'll still be happy. My priority is the female rep first before him. I, not having bought the pass, want a pass with a female character, a TRUE female character, not that Kazooie debacle. That is what I want. One.

 

[Plank08]

Alright, time to get back to rewriting my Sackboy support thread, cya guys later.

 

[Deleted member]

Alright, time to get back to rewriting my Sackboy support thread, cya guys later.

See ya.

Damn, perhaps even my "just one female character" is starting to become a pipe dream.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Did someone say Seeiah?

This is a joke pick, but you can't deny that the inclusion of any SSX Tricky character would be very, very interesting.

 

[Deleted member]

See ya.

Damn, perhaps even my "just one female character" is starting to become a pipe dream.

We got Banjo so it's not like pipe dreams are impossible. Just buy what you want or are interested in and see what happens later.

 

[Deleted member]

We got Banjo so it's not like pipe dreams are impossible. Just buy what you want or are interested in and see what happens later.

Either that or I have a pessimistic outlook with this pass. Or that I just think negatively too much. Or maybe I have too much negativity bias. Or I just believe the Smash community hates what I'm fighting for.

To be fair, I raised the topic of getting one woman to Smash DLC on Reddit and I immediately got downvoted.

 

[Spongeboob]

In case anyone wants to call me out for being narrow-minded, it's not that I seek diversity as a general outlook. I know we will never reach the diversity I seek, but the thing is, I don't want to female to be left out. I just want just one...and every day, I read these posts and it just breaks my heart, every day, knowing that the chances are so slim.

What I'm asking for is just one and I'll not give two cents on anyone else's wants. Y'all can have your Hayas, Doom Slayers, Dantes, etc

No one's debating that there can/can't be a female DLC fighter though. However, having a female character in (or any character from any group of peoples in really) just seem backwards. At that point, it's just tokenism.

Alright, time to get back to rewriting my Sackboy support thread, cya guys later.

Sackboy would be hilarious. Consider me a backer.

 

[Deleted member]

No one's debating that there can/can't be a female DLC fighter though. However, having a female character in (or any character from any group of peoples in really) just seem backwards. At that point, it's just tokenism.


Sackboy would be hilarious. Consider me a backer.

Why would a female character would seem backwards? There's quite a few ones that are popular and iconic that could be added.

 

[Deleted member]

No one's debating that there can/can't be a female DLC fighter though. However, having a female character in (or any character from any group of peoples in really) just seem backwards. At that point, it's just tokenism.

Was I asking for a female character for the sake of tokenism? Why does it seem backwards? Why can't I as a women that's part of like 50% of the world not clamor for a character that is feminine? Or is it just that being a major part of the population, I expect that we don't get left out.

Well said, @ryumo the Zekenator.

 

[Deleted member]

Either that or I have a pessimistic outlook with this pass. Or that I just think negatively too much. Or maybe I have too much negativity bias. Or I just believe the Smash community hates what I'm fighting for.

To be fair, I raised the topic of getting one woman to Smash DLC on Reddit and I immediately got downvoted.

I wouldn't go around asking random groups of strangers their thoughts on Smash speculation without seeing if they're trustworthy. Smash community is composed of a bunch of different tribes with different people, so every group acts differently toward one subject or the other. Find people who are actually worth your time instead of the people who waste it. That's not just Smash speculation advice, but just life advice. If Reddit didn't give you what you want, ditch it.

 

[Spongeboob]

Why would a female character would seem backwards? There's quite a few ones that are popular and iconic that could be added.

Was I asking for a female character for the sake of tokenism? Why does it seem backwards? Why can't I as a women that's part of like 50% of the world not clamor for a character that is feminine? Or is it just that being a major part of the population, I expect that we don't get left out.

Well said, @ryumo the Zekenator.

Whoops. I meant to say that it would be backwards to have one for the sake of having one. Sorry about that.

What I meant by that is something like this example:
Let's say Carson, Joanna and Gustav want Lara Croft from Tomb Raider to be in Smash.
Carson says he wants her in because "it would be nice to have another girl in Smash". (That's what I consider backwards.)
Joanna says she wants her because "she'd be fun to play as". (That's NOT what I consider backwards.)
Gustav says he wants her in because "she could introduce something new to the game". (Again, NOT what I consider backwards.)

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I don't care about Lara Croft.

 

[NoOtherPersona]

In case anyone wants to call me out for being narrow-minded, it's not that I seek diversity as a general outlook. I know we will never reach the diversity I seek, but the thing is, I don't want to female to be left out. I just want just one...and every day, I read these posts and it just breaks my heart, every day, knowing that the chances are so slim.

What I'm asking for is just one and I'll not give two cents on anyone else's wants. Y'all can have your Hayas, Doom Slayers, Dantes, etc

your not narrow-minded for wanting a female character that's passion

 

[Spongeboob]

Anyways, I don't think there'll be another Fighter Pass. Although that would be nice, to me it just sounds like asking for a bit much. Also, I think the primary candidates after the Fighter Pass are Porky and Byleth.

 

[OrpheusTelos]

Okay, let's pretend that the supposed "worst thing ever happens" and we HAVE to get a female character next "to fill an arbitrary quota" like all the boogeymen are saying.

Working with that limitation, name all the women you genuinely want to see in Smash. All the people who are against the quota? I especially want YOU to participate as well. Just sit there and think, or do research if you have to. I'll start:

Nintendo:

Dixie Kong
Toadette
Midna
Style Savvy character
Elma
Fiora
Byleth with a female alt
Edelgard
Lyn
Caeda

Third-party:

Lara Croft
2B
Female alts for The Hero (specifically Dragon Quest III and IV)
Carmen Sandiego (thanks to this thread for bringing it up, I really want this now lol)
Jill Valentine
Chun-Li

Even working with this "limitation", there's a ton of great characters in here. They have as much reason to be here as many of the other characters already in Smash. So all the people scared of or disgusted by the prospect of "adding a female character JUST to fill a quota", try it for yourself and see if you REALLY think it's so bad.

On top of this, I'm also gonna add my own reasoning for why some of these characters would be great, just to show there's more to them than "filling a quota"

Spoiler

Jill Valentine: She's the original face of the series that laid the foundation for the survival horror genre and is from Capcom's best-selling franchise. While Leon is just as valid of a choice for an RE rep and is awesome in his own right, Jill does have the slight advantage of seniority and being the go-to character for crossovers. She's also just a really cool character and would bring a unique playstyle that focuses on inventory management.

2B: Nier: Automata is generally considered one of the best games of the decade, and for very good reason. She actually has quite a bit in common with Joker in that they're both stars of the most popular entries in their series, were most people's introductions to those franchises, and were seen as underdogs due to their ties to the PS4. If Joker can get into Smash, then 2B would be just as great of an addition due to her status as a modern icon. Not to mention Sakurai also loves Nier and apparently has close ties to Yoko Taro, so her chances might be better than you think. If you don't understand what's so great about 2B, go play Automata right now! It's such an amazing game and 2B has quite a bit to pull from for a moveset.

Nakoruru: I'll admit I initially jumped on the Nak bandwagon because I loved her design and unique moveset concept, but after getting into Samurai Shodown and CVS2 and learning the ins and outs of her character, I want her even more now. The idea of an environmentalist shrine maiden samurai who also uses her pet hawk to attack is still one of the coolest ****ing concepts for a fighting game character ever, and in a way she was what got me interested in SNK, so I can't help but be a little biased here. It also helps that she's something of a secondary mascot for SNK alongside Terry, so it's not like she doesn't have a strong legacy either.

Carmen Sandiego: This is probably one of the more out-there choices for Smash DLC, but goddamn am I on board with it. Her games are arguably among the most influential and well-liked among their genre, and it'd be interesting to see how Sakurai would implement a character from an educational point-and-click game. Not to mention that Carmen herself is incredibly badass and has a ton of unconventional skills to pull from.

Style Savvy stylist: Much like Carmen, this is one of those really bizarre picks I became sold on after hearing some really cool concepts. I'm a huge fashion nerd so this character just seems tailor-made for me specifically. Also we don't have anyone to represent the more casual library if the DS/3DS, which is odd because that one of the largest parts of that console's library. Aside from Wright or Layton, Style Savvy would be an excellent choice to represent an integral part if Nintendo's best-selling handheld family.

Edelgard: I'll admit that I'm more of a Byleth gal myself, but that's not to say Edelgard doesn't have her merits also. She represents a unique weapon type we have yet to see in Smash and she's a wonderfully written character. Even outside of the Black Eagles route she's an incredibly integral character to the game's plot and plays into the core themes of the game. Ignoring the Fire Emblem naysayers, Three Houses is still an amazing game that I'd love to see represented in Smash.

Elma: Haven't played X yet, but her being a badass gunslinging sci-fi girl is way more interesting for me than Rex and his sword harem. Also any excuse to have Hiroyuki Sawano bangers in the soundtrack is good enough for me.

Dixie Kong: This feels like one if those "no duh" kind of characters that probably should've happened sooner. A lot of other people in this thread have already gone in-depth with why she'd be a good choice, so I'm just gonna say that she feels like one of the missing links for first party representation and would be a welcome addition to the roster

I could go on about every single possible choice and what makes them "worthy," but I just got back from a school club event and my head hurts from screaming so much, so I'll just leave it at that for now.

TL;DR - There's plenty of cool options for female characters, so it'd be nice if we discussed some of the individual choices more instead of limiting the discourse to "female quota bad" as if tokenism is the only reason anyone would want any of these characters.

 

[Deleted member]

Anyways, I don't think there'll be another Fighter Pass. Although that would be nice, to me it just sounds like asking for a bit much. Also, I think the primary candidates after the Fighter Pass are Porky and Byleth.

Which is why i'm so desperate for the female character. There may be a chance this massive gathering of third-party charactrrs may or may not happene again. It's best to strike when it's still golden.

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

Nier: Automata is generally considered one of the best games of the decade, and for very good reason. She actually has quite a bit in common with Joker in that they're both stars of the most popular entries in their series, were most people's introductions to those franchises

I wish people would apply this same logic to The Elder Scrolls. Skyrim alone was extremely influential in recent years as well and was also a lot of people's introduction to The Elder Scrolls series.

 

[Deleted member]

I wish people would apply this same logic to The Elder Scrolls. Skyrim alone was extremely influential in recent years as well and was also a lot of people's introduction to The Elder Scrolls series.

That sounds quite nice. But wait, doesn't the Dragonborn have male and female variants from what I've heard?

 

[Idon]

That sounds quite nice. But wait, doesn't the Dragonborn have male and female variants from what I've heard?

Yeah, there's a create-a-character, so not only are there different genders but different races and even entirely different species.

However, the primary character they market is the default one, who's "viking guy with iron armor and horned helmet."

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, there's a create-a-character, so not only are there different genders but different races and even entirely different species.

However, the primary character they market is the default one, who's "viking guy with iron armor and horned helmet."

Please have female alt, please have female alt, please have female al-

Hero alts.

**** me.

 

[Poopyhead]

It's not like a lesbian is somewhere just waiting for CNN to report Tracer was added to Smash, or a PoC is waiting for Kotaku to report that Twintelle was invited to the party.

omg this sentence SENT me.. lesbians checking CNN for Tracer in Smash rise up!!

I haven't read all this discussion about diversity and new female characters, but I'm gonna say my part. There are only a few male characters I would like to have at this point, but besides that I want female characters. In my opinion there has been a particular lack of diversity in this iteration of Smash; the female characters we've gotten have been clones, echoes, and alternates. The only femininity we got were a carbon copy of Peach and a semi-clone of Villager. Inkling is a welcome avatar character, but once again is both male & female. K Rool, Belmonts, Incineroar, Ken, and Terry all fit a rather hyper-masculine role, and Joker and Hero fit the self-insert male protagonist role. While I am aware a lot of people want Doomguy, I'd just like you to understand he is fundamentally yet another hyper-masculine character. I think if any of you deny that much it is just ignorance.

Many people such as myself do not identify with those characters, and that is not me trying to say I hate them because I don't. They're fun and I like some of them. But there's a sort of barrier in that I don't feel I can express myself with them or that they represent a significant part of me. That's why you see a lot of Bayo and Peach players are women or gays, because they are naturally attracted to those characters.

The issue is that, if you want to talk about gender diversity, the majority of the fanbase and probably the vast vocal majority are straight men- which means the most requested character will always be representative of that. That's why you can always try and argue "x character would make more people happy," because it's literally true. If you asked a gay or female community what they wanted you would get much different results. There is also the aspect of how games are most often targeted towards young straight guys, which means there are very few female protagonists with enough significance to warrant an argument for being in Smash in your eyes. But at the end of the day, while the things you mentioned are significant markers of diversity, there is importance in gender diversity. Appealing to the majority all the time means disregarding everyone that does not fit within that majority.

If nothing else.. y'all got a whole bunch of characters so far, letting there be one dang unique female character for the sake of diversity is not going to kill you.

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

I'm sure if Dragonborn were added there's be female alts, and each alt would be a different race. The male Nord is the one they market but they did make a figure of a female version at one point.

Hero alts.

**** me.

I think the female Hero alts were omitted because not every male Hero had a female version, so they just did each male with a different colored alt for the sake of consistency.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I wish people would apply this same logic to The Elder Scrolls. Skyrim alone was extremely influential in recent years as well and was also a lot of people's introduction to The Elder Scrolls series.

Pfft...Skyrim is just Ultima 7 for millennials.

 

[Spongeboob]

who we really need in smash is tingle

What this guy said.

 

[NoOtherPersona]

Please have female alt, please have female alt, please have female al-

Hero alts.

**** me.

you were not alone in wanting hero to have fem alts a lot of people in the hero thread were disappointed but there are only 3 heroes who have female alts
3,4,9 got those 10 is debatable because they can be anything I bet if the hero had longer development time they could've been in

 

[EricTheGamerman]

On the topic of female fighters, I do think people need to calm down a little bit as to the "doom and gloom" of no female DLC fighters. Smash 4 had 5 DLC fighters before we got Corrin with a female alt (that everybody actually preferred) and Bayonetta. I don't think it inherently needs to be a big deal if the Fighter's Pass has no full female fighters (I don't count Kazooie as a "female fighter" or whatever, but I count her more than some people do in the same way I count Nana in Ice Climbers as an additional category from the Male/Female split) as long as we eventually get a couple of female fighters. In a medium that rarely prioritizes female leads, they are going to compose a smaller percentage of things typically speaking and there is more likely to be periods in which we go without a female fighter. It's just the circumstance sometimes, so I do think people should maybe calm down a little bit when it comes to the Fighter's Pass. Especially given it has been third party focused, and that's generally an even worse situation than the first party one where there's more room for them due to how many first party fighters are already in.

I agree that Smash should look for more representation, I just wish people would just try to rally more specifically behind a couple of major characters instead of the more general "female fighters in Smash DLC" idea. Like we can come up with lists of female fighter options all day, but our best chance at making more female fighters a reality just seems to be actually creating a substantial voice that supports more specific characters and can then accurately support them on their own merits too. Take Lara Croft, Jill Valentine, 2B, or (and yes, despite recent events, I think she's a really great option for diversity) Tracer; and really hammer home their merits and support. These types of characters not only are major female characters in gaming to different degrees, but they're also from active series that Nintendo also stands to gain from in the relationship with these developers and specific titles. Nintendo is still a business after all, and the best way to incentivize them is through profit, and showing them these options can be profitable is how I think we make progress. Because right now, a loud portion of Smash's fan base and the overall video game market has been showing them that male characters are profitable, hence the situation we're in.

On a more personal note, me supporting more female fighters does clash somewhat with my determination for a focus new third parties. Like I said, Nintendo's characters are probably the best source of female fighters, but so many of them have numerous issues due to either where they originate from or who they're less popular than (such as Elma under Rex/Pyra/Mythra) or that the really solid female character options tend to come from the same series). They're are a number of notable female third parties, but the number of them that are wide-reaching and "make sense" (in looser terms) is a shorter list. Also, it's a shame that two of the best options have to come from the same company and that this company also happens to own my most wanted that's a "Smash Bubble" darling...

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

Pfft...Skyrim is just Ultima 7 for millennials.

Ultima 7, more like Poor Man's Daggerfall xP

 

[Deleted member]

On the topic of female fighters, I do think people need to calm down a little bit as to the "doom and gloom" of no female DLC fighters. Smash 4 had 5 DLC fighters before we got Corrin with a female alt (that everybody actually preferred) and Bayonetta. I don't think it inherently needs to be a big deal if the Fighter's Pass has no full female fighters (I don't count Kazooie as a "female fighter" or whatever, but I count her more than some people do in the same way I count Nana in Ice Climbers as an additional category from the Male/Female split) as long as we eventually get a couple of female fighters. In a medium that rarely prioritizes female leads, they are going to compose a smaller percentage of things typically speaking and there is more likely to be periods in which we go without a female fighter. It's just the circumstance sometimes, so I do think people should maybe calm down a little bit when it comes to the Fighter's Pass. Especially given it has been third party focused, and that's generally an even worse situation than the first party one where there's more room for them due to how many first party fighters are already in.

I agree that Smash should look for more representation, I just wish people would just try to rally more specifically behind a couple of major characters instead of the more general "female fighters in Smash DLC" idea. Like we can come up with lists of female fighter options all day, but our best chance at making more female fighters a reality just seems to be actually creating a substantial voice that supports more specific characters and can then accurately support them on their own merits too. Take Lara Croft, Jill Valentine, 2B, or (and yes, despite recent events, I think she's a really great option for diversity) Tracer; and really hammer home their merits and support. These types of characters not only are major female characters in gaming to different degrees, but they're also from active series that Nintendo also stands to gain from in the relationship with these developers and specific titles. Nintendo is still a business after all, and the best way to incentivize them is through profit, and showing them these options can be profitable is how I think we make progress. Because right now, a loud portion of Smash's fan base and the overall video game market has been showing them that male characters are profitable, hence the situation we're in.

On a more personal note, me supporting more female fighters does clash somewhat with my determination for a focus new third parties. Like I said, Nintendo's characters are probably the best source of female fighters, but so many of them have numerous issues due to either where they originate from or who they're less popular than (such as Elma under Rex/Pyra/Mythra) or that the really solid female character options tend to come from the same series). They're are a number of notable female third parties, but the number of them that are wide-reaching and "make sense" (in looser terms) is a shorter list. Also, it's a shame that two of the best options have to come from the same company and that this company also happens to own my most wanted that's a "Smash Bubble" darling...

Yeah I mean, they are profitable and everything, but I'm more conerned with the small female demographic that is still a valid issue. We don't want to be left out. We don't want to see much more characters we cannot identify with easily.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I'm sure we're going to get at least one female by DLC end even if it's not the Fighters Pass.

Still a bit gutted we didn't get Dixie during Sm4sh when there seemed to be more focus on female additions since she seemed to have everything going for her.

That said, I'm a bit disappointed to see that Inkling is being downplayed when the default and face of the series is female. The fact there is a male alt shouldn't take away from the girl Inkling being the main one?

 

[Deleted member]

I'm sure we're going to get at least one female by DLC end even if it's not the Fighters Pass.

Still a bit gutted we didn't get Dixie during Sm4sh when there seemed to be more focus on female additions since she seemed to have everything going for her.

That said, I'm a bit disappointed to see that Inkling is being downplayed when the default and face of the series is female. The fact there is a male alt shouldn't take away from the girl Inkling being the main one?

In my opinion Inkling is more of an umbrella term for the species. Hence why they're represented by both male and female, with equal number of alts and even 2 black alts (excuse my somewhat racist remark).

 

[Nquoid]

Okay. A few things about this.

1. I fail to see how the roster isn't diverse already. I'm not being facetious about this either. We have dragons, mutants, robots, plants, magicians, anthropomorphic animals, children, regular animals, witches, angels, goddesses, gods, plumbers, and ninjas, just to name a few. They shoot fire, guns, lightning and water; wield swords, axes, and bows; are good, evil, or neutral in their moral alignment; and are female, male, or have no gender. Some of them are royalty and some of them had humble beginnings; some of them are extremely powerful and some of them are incredibly weak; some prefer to work in teams while others prefer to work alone. They are characters that are kind, cruel, dastardly, brave, courageous, independent, cowardly, silly, serious, strategic, clever, impatient, resourceful, beautiful, ugly, intelligent, stupid, disgusting, happy, violent, optimistic, rash, benevolent, peaceful, organized, hilarious, heroic, destructive, and hairy. If the reason you haven't purchased this game is because you can't identify with one of the 80+ characters, then I doubt you can identify with anyone or anything. This is a pretty diverse spectrum.

2. I find it incredibly hard to believe that anyone is waiting for a character with a certain arbitrary personality or character trait to join before they purchase the game. I'll go a step further and say that I doubt that adding a character with said trait(s) will cause someone to break into the fighting game genre, decide to be a Switch owner, or start playing video games that wasn't already before (or at least very much on the fence alresdy). It's not like a lesbian is somewhere just waiting for CNN to report Tracer was added to Smash, or a PoC is waiting for Kotaku to report that Twintelle was invited to the party. This premise is ridiculous. Will it appease some fans? Sure, I guess. But not as much as Geno, Doomguy, Crash or Lara Croft would.

3. If people are really this hung up on their very narrow ideas of what qualifies as "diversity", I recommend that they pull their head out of their ideologies and enjoy reality. There are so many interesting and exciting characters that are in Smash and gaming in general! These characters (their stories, worlds, abilities, personalities, franchises, and supporting actors) are so complex and interesting that it would be a real shame to miss out on that just because of their race, sexual orientation, gender, or some other criteria. Tracer, Cyrax, Kerrigan, Lara Croft, and Samus Aran are some of my favorite video game characters. I am a male, straight, and Caucasian. I am not allowed to like them because I don't identify with these arbitrary standards? Of course not! That's preposterous. And even if a character was chosen for a reason like this, fans would never be satisfied. These kind of people will always find something to be offended about. It will never be good enough.

TL;DR: I think adding characters for the sake of fulfilling someone's idea of diversity is ludicrous, unprofitable, and unnecessary. I guarantee it's not how Sakurai and Nintendo are choosing characters, so it best to abandon that thought process all together.

I'm going to be as succinct as I can.

1. That's not the kind of diversity we're talking about. Because a lot of the characters and traits you mentioned are male coded.

2. "It's not like a lesbian is somewhere just waiting for CNN to report Tracer was added to Smash". No, but there might be a lesbian out who's favourite game character is Tracer and who never thought to play Smash before. This kind of representation does mean a lot to people. And the fact that you can sit there and deny that speaks to your privelge.

3. It's not narrow definitions of diversity. Women, POC and LGBTQ+ don't not consume media just because it doesn't feature people like them. Because most media fixates on the straight white male. But that gets tiring. This isn't asking for arbritary representation, this is saying "hey the amount of media out there skews very clearly to the male experience" and demographics show that the world skews only very slightly male (49.6% of the population is female). So asking for one female character in a DLC lineup really doesn't seem like that big of an ask.

And at the end of the day, the fact that you can't even entertain the idea of "female" being as valid a request as the myriad other ones that come into this thread show just how toxic and full of misinformation this debate has become.

Why is asking for a big female video game icon "ludicrous, unprofitable, and unnecessary". Ask yourself why your gut response is to assume the addition of a female character would be negative. Because none of the DLC choices or 3rd party picks have been bad. And I'll still be happy if the final character is a male character I like. But that doesn't change the fact that I can still criticise the game for somehow adding 5 characters to the game, and not only not adding any women (beyond Kazooie), but also not taking advantage of the opportunities they did have to include female alts within their already chosen characters.