Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Just a random scrub]

I heard the complete opposite. There was an old Geocities post that explained how clone characters came to be. I can't find it at the moment but It said that all the time took to make those 6 clones could have added up to make King Dedede for Melee but decided to prioritise roster size which seemed like a Sakurai thing to do. It might have just been a false rumour though.

I'll get back to Ninjaed 's post in a minute. I gotta head out for a bit.

Here's what Sakurai said about it

“If I could add one or two more characters, then [Wario] could have gotten in. Of all the characters I discarded, [he’s] ranked near the top.


However, even if I didn’t work on several clone characters he wouldn’t have gotten in.


Even if I deleted characters from before (Jigglypuff, Luigi) he wouldn’t have gotten in.


You might think it’s impossible that even if we delete one character in development that it couldn’t be replaced with another character….


I would have needed to get rid of both Marth and Roy or Mewtwo in order for Wario to get in[1]

He said this in Source gaming's clones article.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Reading some of these unpopular opinions has been quite interesting so I guess i might throw in my 2 cents.

-Im fine with the amount of Fire Emblem characters in smash, however I do feel like if they do add in Edelgard or Byleth they need to have a unique moveset, like give Edelgard an axe or Byleth the chain/whip word thing (and hopefully something else than a down b counter).
-I like playing as Corrin, I think shes a fun character to play as.
-I don't want Toad to get in as a playable character, however I obviously wouldn't be upset, just if I had to choose I wouldn't add him.
-I don't hate Cloud, but I'm definitely not a fan.
-Thats kind of all I can think of really.

Well what do you know, Edelgard defaults to Axes and Battalions instead of swords and Byleth's most marketed weapon is the whipsword!

 

[Dinoman96]

My unpopular opinion is that I don't really care for C-D characters from established Nintendo series being in Smash.

I always see people complain about the playable lineup for both Kirby and Zelda, but I've always been unfazed by it because there's no other characters in those series that feel essential outside of the main three.

I like that, for the most part, Smash just focuses on protagonists. The only exceptions thus far are clones (which don't take up much development time and add extra fanservice), or the actual importanting reoccuring characters like Peach, Bowser, K. Rool, Zelda, Ridley, Dedede, etc.

I just don't think characters like Ashley, Waluigi, Bandana Dee, any one-off Zelda character, Marx, etc are really on their level, and obviously they can't work as clones. At this point, I'd just prefer them to keep focusing on adding protagonists from currently unrepped series. Though I'd like Dixie.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Unpopular opinion? If we're going to get a JRPG character from now on, it should be from Yakuza.

...I agree.

3. Terry's inclusion was more hype for me than the Sans Mii costume and I think Terry is a completely different character to Ken.

...I agree.

 

[kirbsmash]

Unpopular opinion? I just....dislike the idea of GeNo as DLC.

 

[andree123]

Unpopular opinions:
1. The rest of the DLC fighters released after the 8th DLC fighter, may be only be the ones who were already spirits and NPCs due to the requirements on unlocking them in the WOL being different from the previous 8 DLC fighters.
2. Should the next smash bros have to cut all swordsmen except Link?
3. Will Megaman X and megaman.exe come back as DLC mii costumes in one of the upcoming rounds, return as fighters, or never get DLC at all?
4. If we get a Blizzard character in any form in smash, will it impact super smash bros modding very badly?

 

[Deleted member]

So, still no news yet. I see.

 

[NintenZ]

Unpopular opinion?

I see basically no appeal in having Geno in Smash, that's just me though.

 

[Sysreq]

Yeah, I agree on both of these things..also, I feel like our avatars should be staring at each other lol

"Just tired of this ****."

 

[Door Key Pig]

So is Travis Touchdown out because of what Suda51 said about him making it next game?

6. DLC should only include third party characters while first party characters should be saved for the next game.

...Why tho? Why should Corrin/Piranha Plant be our sole exceptions in that regard?

All of that then needs to be properly tested and balanced. Some ideas might sound cool but aren't that feasible in reality - see Diddy Kong & Dixie Kong as a duo, an idea that had to be scrapped. But they don't have a lot of time for trial and error. Because of that, most of the work is done before anything is even coded. Everything that comes afterwards has to be somewhat smooth sailing as they can't afford to lose time there. That means thinking ahead to avoid degenerative movesets while still having strong points yet being balanced.

That's how it specifically went down with Diddy/Dixie? It wasn't a matter of in-game coding that scrapped them? Does this mean Chorus Kids could have had a moveset planned for Smash 4 before being cut?

Speaking of, I want to bring this up. I heard from PushDustin that the separation of base/DLC development was why we didn't get believed scrapped content then made DLC in Smash 4. If Piranha Plant truly was a character that couldn't make the base game, why wasn't he also scrapped if that process was true? Different stages of development?

Wish there was an argument to be made for Joanna Dark.

There really isn't an argument. I'll take the Perfect Dark bomb sneaking into Melee for the rest of eternity.

I mean, she could be a copyright-friendly fill in for James Bond.

For what it's worth, as much as Kirby gets pushed by Nintendo and the reasonable demand so far in this era of Smash, I would expect Bandanna Dee to be one of the few first party characters that could make it into future DLC even if Nintendo remains third party focused.

Who else do you expect?

Yikes, I just thought about Sin and Punishment. Series like that makes me wish Nintendo messed around with their lesser known stuff more. Star Destroyer was so fun; there was a time I thought Saki was a shoo-in. He's not even an assist anymore. I think the same thing can be said about Andy and Sami.

Profound sadness. D:

I mean he at least got a Mii costume when Rhythm Heaven strangely didn't.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

What takes the most time is coming up with the moveset. It needs to fit a plethora of criteria. First and foremost, it needs to be fun. Then it needs to be in line with the character or their game. At the same time, it needs to fit in Smash. It should also be unique, bringing something fresh and new. In addition, characters usually don't just represent themselves and you get references to other stuff - usually, most if not all moves have a history somewhere or easter eggs, like B&K's rapid jab having the same rhythm as their theme. Finally, this needs approval by both Nintendo and the company represented.

All of that then needs to be properly tested and balanced. Some ideas might sound cool but aren't that feasible in reality - see Diddy Kong & Dixie Kong as a duo, an idea that had to be scrapped. But they don't have a lot of time for trial and error. Because of that, most of the work is done before anything is even coded. Everything that comes afterwards has to be somewhat smooth sailing as they can't afford to lose time there. That means thinking ahead to avoid degenerative movesets while still having strong points yet being balanced.

An echo fighter bypasses almost all of that design work. They have enough cash to hire 3D artists, etc. Not much of an issue, that time can be compressed by hiring more people. What they can't compress is the time spent designing the movesets.

It just seems odd to me that after creating Inkling, Ridley, Simon, King K Rool, Incineroar and Piranha Plant (of all things) that they'd struggle for time to create one more unique character over 7 Echo fighters. 6 characters is no where near the amount of time to work on the 15 different smash 4 newcomers (Mii fighters included).

Pretty sure that was false...Actually, I don't believe Dedede was even planned. Iirc, Sakurai has said that if were to add one more fully unique character to Melee, it would've be been Wario. The reason he wasn't added? Limited time and resources.

He said this in Source gaming's clones article.

Fair enough but regardless that was in Melee and it had a notoriously tight schedule so it's easy to believe that he wouldn't have that much time. Ultimate on the other hand from what Sakurai said wasn't as demanding so there is a difference.

...Why tho? Why should Corrin/Piranha Plant be our sole exceptions in that regard?

There really aren't many major Nintendo newcomers that I can think of that aren't already assist trophies or spirit. Corrin and Piranha Plant just got lucky.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Unpopular opinion: If you're concerned about Banjo getting in over Steve or any remaining Nintendo character not being an A-lister, be concerned that we got Terry instead of Heihachi or Scorpion. It's not a Smash bubble thing to not recognize him, it's a normie thing, as seen with Sans attracting more interest.

Remember, I wanted Terry way more than anything indie, so this isn't a "this isn't Geno I hate this" thing. I can want a character without exaggerating how popular they are, you know.

 

[Opossum]

It just seems odd to me that after creating Inkling, Ridley, Simon, King K Rool, Incineroar and Piranha Plant (of all things) that they'd struggle for time to create one more unique character over 7 Echo fighters. 6 characters is no where near the amount of time to work on the 15 different smash 4 newcomers (Mii fighters included).




Fair enough but regardless that was in Melee and it had a notoriously tight schedule so it's easy to believe that he wouldn't have that much time. Ultimate on the other hand from what Sakurai said wasn't as demanding so there is a difference.



There really aren't many major Nintendo newcomers that I can think of that aren't already assist trophies or spirit. Corrin and Piranha Plant just got lucky.

Echo fighters are easier to create because they only need to be balanced against their base character. Fully unique fighters need to be balanced against every single character in the game.

The process of moveset creation and balancing is where the bulk of the development time goes for a new character. Echoes, meanwhile, are substantially less time-intensive.

 

[KatKit]

I mean he at least got a Mii costume when Rhythm Heaven strangely didn't.

That's another series that's been shafted (there are quite a few), but a part of me feels like we'll be able to tap dance our way to victory one day.

In the Smash 4 speculation days, there I was time that I was hyped about Last Story. D:

 

[CroonerMike]

Unpopular opinion: Sora is a terrible choice for smash

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Echo fighters are easier to create because they only need to be balanced against their base character. Fully unique fighters need to be balanced against every single character in the game.

The process of moveset creation and balancing is where the bulk of the development time goes for a new character. Echoes, meanwhile, are substantially less time-intensive.

Are you sure about that? What about Chrom where his sword does not have a sweet spot unlike Roy? His version of the flare blade? His version of the aether? Surely those things needs to be tested out on other characters to make sure there are no bugs exclusive to him against that character. What about Dark Samus' electrical effect on her moves? Richter's holy water that has an aura effect? There was also a thing with Daisy where her vegetables had slightly different knockback and damage from Peach that wasn't intended.

 

[1FC0]

There was also a thing with Daisy where her vegetables had slightly different knockback and damage from Peach that wasn't intended.

And which they would have known about even if they only tested properly against Peach.

 

[Garteam]

Unpopular opinion: Smash is still a Nintendo game at the end of the day. Most of the 3rd Party characters added are characters from massive franchises who have touched Nintendo consoles multiple due to their size (, , , , ), are from a series that's largely associated with Nintendo (, , ), or are honorary Nintendo characters due to the big N being involved in the development of their franchise in some way (, ).

The only possible exceptions to this trend are and Terry, but even then you could argue Joker fits into the first or second catagory due to being part of the larger Shin Megami Tensei series. Terry may even fit into the second category, seeing how SNK is arguably the 3rd party who has given the Switch the most love overall (especially at the beginning of its life cycle).

Overall, I don't think we're in crazy "Anything goes!" territory regarding 3rd parties. The perceived rules regarding who can and can't get into Smash have definitely gotten more lenient than what we believed during Brawl and Smash for, but there does seem to be logic to Sakurai's choices.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

And which they would have known about even if they only tested properly against Peach.

Well you'd need to test out with Daisy as well to know there is a difference.

 

[Ovaltine]

Wait, why is not wanting Geno in Smash an unpopular opinion, though? Even as a Geno fan, I'm aware of and respect the fact that he's a rather polarizing figure in the community and has a sizable amount of people who want him... as well as a sizable amount of people who don't want him, dislike him, or even flat-out can't stand him. Trust me, that's not an unpopular opinion at all, and it's a very valid one. A lot of people don't get Geno's appeal, and I was in that position for a long time, too. It's totally understandable.

 

[Ninjaed]

Are you sure about that? What about Chrom where his sword does not have a sweet spot unlike Roy? His version of the flare blade? His version of the aether? Surely those things needs to be tested out on other characters to make sure there are no bugs exclusive to him against that character. What about Dark Samus' electrical effect on her moves? Richter's holy water that has an aura effect? There was also a thing with Daisy where her vegetables had slightly different knockback and damage from Peach that wasn't intended.

Testing isn't the same as designing. Sakurai doesn't need to be there for that. He'll do some QA obviously, but not all of the intense testing, debugging, etc. There are people hired to do that.

 

[Opossum]

Are you sure about that? What about Chrom where his sword does not have a sweet spot unlike Roy? His version of the flare blade? His version of the aether? Surely those things needs to be tested out on other characters to make sure there are no bugs exclusive to him against that character. What about Dark Samus' electrical effect on her moves? Richter's holy water that has an aura effect? There was also a thing with Daisy where her vegetables had slightly different knockback and damage from Peach that wasn't intended.

I'm absolutely sure. Sakurai literally said so himself when talking about Doc, Dark Pit, and Lucina back in Smash 4.

It should be noted that despite Doc not being an echo, he took the same balance approach, even in Ultimate. If you look in the game data, Doc's stats are literally coded to be just Mario's stats with the Smash 4 "heavier, stronger, and slower" equipment attached. This was even carried over to Ultimate despite equipment no longer being a thing.

It once again confirms that echoes only need to be balanced against their base, which dramatically reduces the workload.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Fair enough but regardless that was in Melee and it had a notoriously tight schedule so it's easy to believe that he wouldn't have that much time. Ultimate on the other hand from what Sakurai said wasn't as demanding so there is a difference.

Okay, but echos are also considerably less different and significantly more "same-y" than the Melee clones were.

 

[Pinguino21v]

I'm coming back on an already old topic.

Just didn't know if Smash had a following in France or if there were any characters that had ever had such as strong of a tie to the country.

I don't know if the following is strong, I'm only a mere amateur that plays with his friends, but on the characters question, here's a poll that went during the speculation time, before the launch, on the biggest French video game forum.

Rayman is particularly strong, that's not a surprise, but if far from the most supported.

Isaac is always a strong contender in Europe, particularly in France. That's always annoying to see Americans saying "Isaac who?" knowing that. On the opposite side, you can also see the lackluster Geno support, and one of the reason he's made bigger than he really is: SMRPG were not released in Europe.

Tbf France was big enough to get Square to cave to fan demand for the DQ8 3DS remake and is consistently a bigger Nintendo region than most in terms of gaming

France is a big Japan stuff fan. It's the first manga country after Japan itself. I only know that the best seller games here are Fifa and CoD (erk, it hurts) but JRPG fans are still in number.

 

[Will]

Unpopular opinion?

I see basically no appeal in having Geno in Smash, that's just me though.

its fun to see men in their 30 somethings do the funny face

Geno isn't really a legend or anything "iconic", he's a forgotten relic of a character people just wanna see back. Kinda like K. Rool. And that's fine, I guess. It hasn't stopped Sakurai before.

I mean, Smash basically got Kid Icarus revived.

 

[Us3inMN]

Unpopular opinion: Waluigi shouldn't make it as a fighter.

1. The memes were funny at first, then they were just annoying (and we would keep getting more annoying memes if he were to be announced)
2. Sakurai himself is against it
3. He doesn't sound fun at all because it would basically be his Assist Trophy with a Final Smash (although he is a cool character, I just don't think playing as him would be fun)
4. He doesn't even have his own game/game where he plays a crucial role
5. He wasn't really a popular request until the memes
6. If he was DLC, what music/stage could they even add?

(In the end I would still buy him simply because I'm going full 100% mode on this game, so I sound like a real f***in hypocrite)

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Unpopular Opinion:

I don't really got anything right now. I'm sure I'll say something soon enough though that most people will disagree with.

 

[Will]

Unpopular opinion: Waluigi shouldn't make it as a fighter.

friendship: cancelled

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Testing isn't the same as designing. Sakurai doesn't need to be there for that. He'll do some QA obviously, but not all of the intense testing, debugging, etc. There are people hired to do that.

I don't see how this counters what I've said or I'm probably just forgetful, it happens a lot with me.

I'm absolutely sure. Sakurai literally said so himself when talking about Doc, Dark Pit, and Lucina back in Smash 4.

It should be noted that despite Doc not being an echo, he took the same balance approach, even in Ultimate. If you look in the game data, Doc's stats are literally coded to be just Mario's stats with the Smash 4 "heavier, stronger, and slower" equipment attached. This was even carried over to Ultimate despite equipment no longer being a thing.

It once again confirms that echoes only need to be balanced against their base, which dramatically reduces the workload.

Kind of sloppy on the balancing teams part which is probably why Dr. Mario does so poorly against other characters and why Lucina is so much better than Marth but regardless the question was whether Echo fighters needed to tested on other characters and what you've given me has settled that argument.

Okay, but echos are also considerably less different and significantly more "same-y" than the Melee clones were.

There were also way less characters to have to play test with in Melee

 

[ChaosAngelZone]

If we’re talking about unpopular opinions, here are mine. I don’t post here too often, so I’m not sure how controversial these will be.

*I think Dark Pit was a great addition to Smash. I loved his character in Uprising and legitimately enjoy playing as him in Smash Ultimate, more than Pit himself, despite just being a clone.

*I’m all for more fighting game characters being added to the roster. There are a lot of characters from a lot of different fighting game series that can bring some good variety. Scorpion/Sub-Zero from Mortal Kombat, Fulgore from Killer Instinct, Ragna from BlazBlue, the list goes on.

*Of all the Assist Trophies, I’d want Knuckles to be upgraded to a playable fighter. I see people talk about which Assist Trophies they’d like to see playable, but I rarely see Knuckles mentioned. He’s one of my favorite video game characters, and he’s different enough from Sonic to make it seem justified to me. There are other characters like Skull Kid and Ashley that I also would love to see as playable fighters, but Knuckles ranks much higher than the rest to me personally.

 

[Will]

*I think Dark Pit was a great addition to Smash. I loved his character in Uprising and legitimately enjoy playing as him in Smash Ultimate, more than Pit himself, despite just being a clone.

Plus there's additional weapon subtypes in Uprising. Wasted potential tbh, he could've had the other weapons unsused like Clubs or Claws, maybe even the boss variants since he himself was a boss twice or thrice over.

 

[Ninjaed]

I don't see how this counters what I've said or I'm probably just forgetful, it happens a lot with me.



Kind of sloppy on the balancing teams part which is probably why Dr. Mario does so poorly against other characters and why Lucina is so much better than Marth but regardless the question was whether Echo fighters needed to tested on other characters and what you've given me has settled that argument.



There were also way less characters to have to play test with in Melee

I meant that it echoes take very little time on Sakurai, so removing them wouldn't magically give him more time to make a new unique character instead. Hope that's clearer.

 

[Deleted member]

Unpopular Opinion: I don't care who gets added as long as they're fun to play.

 

[TheAJJohnson]

Unpopular opinion from me: I really dislike the trifecta of Doomguy, Dark Souls, and Dovahkiin. I just have a hard time imagining them in Smash Bros.

Other opinion (though it's more an observation): people will go to extreme lengths to try and convince themselves that their character of choice has a shot at making it in. Browsing character threads is sometimes sad

Wait...you mean Toad, Gengar, and Master Chief don't stand a chance? /s

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I meant that it echoes take very little time on Sakurai, so removing them wouldn't magically give him more time to make a new unique character instead. Hope that's clearer.

I suppose you're right about that considering that Sakurai said that Echo fighters are only tested on their base counterparts.

 

[Ninjaed]

Unpopular Opinion: I don't care who gets added as long as they're fun to play.

You monster!

 

[Calamitas]

Wait, why is not wanting Geno in Smash an unpopular opinion, though? Even as a Geno fan, I'm aware of and respect the fact that he's a rather polarizing figure in the community and has a sizable amount of people who want him... as well as a sizable amount of people who don't want him, dislike him, or even flat-out can't stand him. Trust me, that's not an unpopular opinion at all, and it's a very valid one. A lot of people don't get Geno's appeal, and I was in that position for a long time, too. It's totally understandable.

Probably because Geno has consistently been one of the most talked about characters within speculation cycles. Just look at this very board - the Geno thread is by far the largest thread here, with nearly 1500 pages, and pretty much constantly being on the first page. With him getting (what feels like) this near constant attention, it's honestly quite easy to feel like this is an unpopular opinion. I myself am at a point where I'm largely indifferent to the guy, though before the announcement of post Fighter Pass DLC, I was actively against him.

 

[krokotopia101]

Another unpopular opinion. I despise. People portraying characters with blades as....' just another typical anime swordsman' as well as the REALLY unneeded hate for Fire Emblem characters. People have absolutely no problem with Link yet every other sword character is hated to oblivion, and Mario is SUPPOSED to be privileged to have every single ****king character in the Mario series to be a fighter because it's the face of Nintendo. I get it. But saying FE has too many characters bloating the roster when they have 7 fighters and Mario got just about almost every main character in the series........it infuriates me. Mario doesn't deserve hate, far from it, but neither does Fire Emblem...like my god. Funny thing is, should a Three Houses rep make into Smash at some point in the future, people'll just complain and complain and complain because it's 'just another Fire Emblem character' like WHY is it such a big deal? Even the more unique characters THIS guy, for example, gets more hate than ANYONE on the franchise, so people'll just complain and complain no matter what character it is

I went on a tangent, it's a topic like this that just...infuriates me to no end. But what can you do?

 

[KatKit]

Although I'm not a fan of the Witcher games (they never clicked), the lore seems interesting enough and Geralt (who my sister calls white-haired Marth lol) had neat cameos in SoulCal (which introduced me to a great song called Hunt or Be Hunted) and Monster Hunter. Witcher 3 is critically acclaimed as heck. I already explained why him and/or Ciri could easily be exceptions to the video game origin rule a couple of days ago, so I'm going to ignore that. With this in mind, I'm surprised more people aren't hyping them up. Anyone here a fan of the series? As aforementioned, I'm not, but I definitely wouldn't mind one or both of them being in. I might look for the support thread for more insight. What kind of moveset what Geralt or Ciri have? Stages,? Songs? That sort of thing.

I can see a character like Geralt kicking off post-season 1 DLC and the internet exploding as a result.

 

[Sour Supreme]

My unpopular opinion, (as far as I know) is that Mii Fighters are useless additions to the roster and are more of an eyesore than anything else. I do have a history of disliking Mii appearances in other media though. Mother****ers should have stayed in the plaza.