Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[perfectchaos83]

Anything can happen when it comes to Smash, but replacing an AT with another character so that said AT can become a playable fighter is not 1 of those things. The only scenario I could see happening if an AT does becomes playable is where they get to be both a playable character and an AT because removing/replacing/disabling an AT is subtracting content from Ultimate, which I don't think Sakurai intends on doing.

The game already disables ATs based on specific criteria. Making one of those criteria be "AT X will not spawn when Playable character X" isn't removing content from Ultimate.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Anything can happen when it comes to Smash, but replacing an AT with another character so that said AT can become a playable fighter is not 1 of those things. The only scenario I could see happening if an AT does becomes playable is where they get to be both a playable character and an AT because removing/replacing/disabling an AT is subtracting content from Ultimate, which I don't think Sakurai intends on doing.

You get a ton of **** to be smacked around by when items are on anyway. One less wouldn't hurt. Playable Waluigi doesn't prevent you from having a chance at being buried, and playable Isaac doesn't prevent the Gust Bellows from pushing you away.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I'm having a hard time visualizing Rayman as a Western powerhouse.

Poor Rayman got power crept hard once the third party possibilities expanded to new limits with Joker. He may have seemed like a big fish in a pond when the third party possibilities were tied to only "must be related to Nintendo", but after the canal was dug to the ocean of endless third parties he just seems small in comparison.

 

[-crump-]

The game already disables ATs based on specific criteria. Making one of those criteria be "AT X will not spawn when Playable character X" isn't removing content from Ultimate.

This is 100% true, here’s a list of all of those ATs:

Spoiler

No reason they couldn’t block certain ATs from spawning alongside their playable variant, if they deemed it necessary. I think popular Assist Trophies are still on the table for promotion in future DLC.

 

[Polan]

no f'ing way are we getting assist trophy upgrades. there's a reason why they are assist trophies (dead franchises, passed over for another character etc.). and even if we get upgraded assists, there's only one character that i could see get the nod and its...waluigi. all those cool characters stuck in AT hell but we get waluigi because meme bull****.

 

[perfectchaos83]

This is 100% true, here’s a list of all of those ATs:

Spoiler

View attachment 239160

No reason they couldn’t block certain ATs from spawning alongside their playable variant, if they deemed it necessary. I think popular Assist Trophies are still on the table for promotion in future DLC.

Some ATs will also not spawn while others are on the field (summoned or not). Shadow will not spawn while Yuri is out on the field for example. The opposite is also true.

 

[OrpheusTelos]

Poor Rayman got power crept hard once the third party possibilities expanded to new limits with Joker. He may have seemed like a big fish in a pond when the third party possibilities were tied to only "must be related to Nintendo", but after the canal was dug to the ocean of endless third parties he just seems small in comparison.

It also doesn't help that Ubisoft doesn't do much with the franchise nowadays aside from the occasional port of Legends. I feel like a lot of the Rayman hype from the Smash 4 era came from the positive reception of Origins and Legends, so it makes sense that the hype would die down when Ubisoft just sort of forgot about the series. I feel like Rayman would still be a big name in speculation if Ubisoft continued to capitalize on the series' renaissance, but they let it fall back into obscurity so people stopped caring as a result. Hell, I saw more people discussing the possibility of Rabbids during Ultimate's hype cycle than I did Rayman, which should tell you how much the series' dormancy hurt the character's hype.

 

[Deleted member]

Given the possibilities for third parties and new characters/franchises from Nintendo being created (Pokemon SwSh, FE TH, Astral Chain), I really don't see a reason for AT upgrades.

 

[Deleted member]

The game already disables ATs based on specific criteria. Making one of those criteria be "AT X will not spawn when Playable character X" isn't removing content from Ultimate.

This is 100% true, here’s a list of all of those ATs:

Spoiler

View attachment 239160

No reason they couldn’t block certain ATs from spawning alongside their playable variant, if they deemed it necessary. I think popular Assist Trophies are still on the table for promotion in future DLC.

Huh. I've never actually heard about this before. So Knuckles, Kapp'n, and Moon aren't summonable on the stages they appear in while every other character either conflicts with certain stages or just not functional for it (like Devil not being summonable on multiple stages and Alucard not being in Wii Fit Studio because there's no point in developing him without a reflection on that stage). That's certainly interesting, but to say ATs are still possible for DLC is something I won't believe in since the only way to prove that is to reveal an AT actually becoming playable.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So in conclusion, Assist Trophy characters are feasible to implement, but are still disconfirmed unless one is revealed.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Given the possibilities for third parties and new characters/franchises from Nintendo being created (Pokemon SwSh, FE TH, Astral Chain), I really don't see a reason for AT upgrades.

With that logic, they shouldn't have spent time making Mewtwo the first DLC for Smash.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I think AT upgrades would be neat. It's one way for Nintendo to please the core Nintendo fanbase by making a fan favorite request be a playable fighter.

 

[Llort A. Ton]

ATs are possible, like if Waluigi was DLC they could just take his AT out of rotation when hes in battle. We already have the Moon AT that leaves rotation on Great Bay and Alucard who leaves rotation on levels with mirrors(Wii Fit), so it really wouldnt be that big of a task to just remove an AT when a certain character is being played as. That said, dont hold your breath for AT characters.

 

[SKX31]

It also doesn't help that Ubisoft doesn't do much with the franchise nowadays aside from the occasional port of Legends. I feel like a lot of the Rayman hype from the Smash 4 era came from the positive reception of Origins and Legends, so it makes sense that the hype would die down when Ubisoft just sort of forgot about the series. I feel like Rayman would still be a big name in speculation if Ubisoft continued to capitalize on the series' renaissance, but they let it fall back into obscurity so people stopped caring as a result. Hell, I saw more people discussing the possibility of Rabbids during Ultimate's hype cycle than I did Rayman, which should tell you how much the series' dormancy hurt the character's hype.

I feel as if one of the reasons why is simply one question:

"Where do we go after Legends?"

One of the main reasons why AC's been (almost) yearly is not just greed, but also the very wide variety of possible settings (and times) to choose from. I mean, III and Black Flag are not far from each other time wise - whether by release or by setting - but both games introduced new stuff or expanded on things considerably. Ditto Origins and Odyssey. I mean, they've gone 8 main games and never touched Japan as a setting.

Rayman on the other hand is not really as clear. It feels like they did everything they could do with Origins and Legends - not just in terms of "how much stuff can we get into the games?" but also in terms of effort. It's not every time you get to have a musical autoscrolling platformer with Black Betty as the background song. But where does one go with the 2-D New Super Mario Bros-esque games?

Going back to 3-D might be semi-tempting, but I'd argue that Ubisoft got a wee bit scared after Sonic had a very wonky stretch, the first Yooka-Laylee didn't do as well as expected (not commenting on the game's quality, just expectations) and Rayman 3 being the last 3-D title, mixed bag as it was. They'd also need a new dev team able and willing to tackle a 3-D platformer. Not impossible, but I get the feeling Ubi would've been more confident about a 3D Rayman had Sonic Forces or Yooka-Laylee been successful.

 

[Door Key Pig]

This is 100% true, here’s a list of all of those ATs:

Spoiler

View attachment 239160

No reason they couldn’t block certain ATs from spawning alongside their playable variant, if they deemed it necessary. I think popular Assist Trophies are still on the table for promotion in future DLC.

"Alucard can't be summoned in Wii Fit Studio due to the presence of mirrors"
Yet he appears with a reflection in Fountain of Dreams just fine...

Spoiler

He's not a vampire, HE'S A WITCH!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

"Alucard can't be summoned in Wii Fit Studio due to the presence of mirrors"
Yet he appears with a reflection in Fountain of Dreams just fine...

Spoiler

He's not a vampire, HE'S A WITCH!

The reasoning for his allowance on Fountain of Dreams has something to do with mirrors using silver rather than vampires just straight up not having reflections. It's probably one of those obscure vampire facts that most media franchises drop for whatever reason (like their inability to cross moving water for some reason).

I feel as if one of the reasons why is simply one question:

"Where do we go after Legends?"

One of the main reasons why AC's been (almost) yearly is not just greed, but also the very wide variety of possible settings (and times) to choose from. I mean, III and Black Flag are not far from each other time wise - whether by release or by setting - but both games introduced new stuff or expanded on things considerably. Ditto Origins and Odyssey. I mean, they've gone 8 main games and never touched Japan as a setting.

Rayman on the other hand is not really as clear. It feels like they did everything they could do with Origins and Legends - not just in terms of "how much stuff can we get into the games?" but also in terms of effort. It's not every time you get to have a musical autoscrolling platformer with Black Betty as the background song. But where does one go with the 2-D New Super Mario Bros-esque games?

Going back to 3-D might be semi-tempting, but I'd argue that Ubisoft got a wee bit scared after Sonic had a very wonky stretch, the first Yooka-Laylee didn't do as well as expected (not commenting on the game's quality, just expectations) and Rayman 3 being the last 3-D title, mixed bag as it was. They'd also need a new dev team able and willing to tackle a 3-D platformer. Not impossible, but I get the feeling Ubi would've been more confident about a 3D Rayman had Sonic Forces or Yooka-Laylee been successful.

The classic Mega Man series has gone on for 11 games without feeling rehashed in any way. It'd take some imagination but I don't think the Rayman series is completely unable to have a new and unique game in the series. Also, the concept art for Rayman 4 has some really cool depictions of areas. I'd love to see these fully realized some day.

 

[SKX31]

The classic Mega Man series has gone on for 11 games without feeling rehashed in any way. It'd take some imagination but I don't think the Rayman series is completely unable to have a new and unique game in the series. Also, the concept art for Rayman 4 has some really cool depictions of areas. I'd love to see these fully realized some day.

True, but I'd argue that it's because Capcom was much more willing to do so. It worked for them until the mid 2000s when they spammed too many Megaman releases (X7 and Zero 3 didn't need to be released on the same day. It especially hurt Zero 3 since it's a great game.). Ubisoft never struck me as being that similar to Capcom. Sure they spam AC games, but I'd argue that Ubisoft's way of spamming is different from Capcom's since Ubi attempts to make a clearer distinction between games and make them seem more "unique". Despite what the reality of the matter is.

I'm not saying that the Rayman series can't have a future, it definetely can - what I'm saying is, Ubisoft's the kind of company who gets cold feet real easily. If something isn't working like they wanted to (exactly) - or they stop and wonder what to do next - quick, back to the drawing board! No matter if there's stuff that's legitimately enjoyable (again, Rayman 3 had a lot of good stuff in it) and can be built upon.

Also, oh gosh, you're right. The Rayman 4 areas look great.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Too bad we'd probably get one of those annoying Rabbids (Minions of video games at this point) before we'd get Rayman.

 

[Deleted member]

With that logic, they shouldn't have spent time making Mewtwo the first DLC for Smash.

Assist throphies are not the same as regular throphies, plus Mewtwo was a veteran. In the same game we haven't gotten an upgrade yet.

I would think that the moment Nintendo starts making upgrades is the time where they literally can't add anything else. I think Waluigi is a fun character for example but at the same time Nintendo keeps creating a lot of fun characters they can add and with the third parties more on board than ever, they can afford not making any upgrades.

 

[Roberk]

Assist upgrades are more of a base game thing rather than DLC, just like clones. Notice how Dark Samus was an AT but turned into Echo, Isabelle was an AT but turned into a semiclone, and Chrom was a Final Smash (and still is) and turned into an Echo. These characters got in because they a) were able to reuse assets from Smash 4 and b) were mostly made into Echoes with only Isabelle being somewhat unique. DLC is meant to be worked on from the ground up to be as unique as possible and also "new" to Smash.

 

[perfectchaos83]

Assist upgrades are more of a base game thing rather than DLC, just like clones. Notice how Dark Samus was an AT but turned into Echo, Isabelle was an AT but turned into a semiclone, and Chrom was a Final Smash (and still is) and turned into an Echo. These characters got in because they a) were able to reuse assets from Smash 4 and b) were mostly made into Echoes with only Isabelle being somewhat unique. DLC is meant to be worked on from the ground up to be as unique as possible and also "new" to Smash.

Little Mac kinda goes against this.

 

[-crump-]

If fan popularity is something being considered with later DLC additions (we don’t know one way or another) I could see Sakurai taking a second look at Waluigi and other Assist Trophies that got outcry during the pre-release period.
Not saying it’s something I’d bet money on, but it is a possibility I don’t think should be completely shoved aside.

But also I’m biased because Waluigi is the only character I’m genuinely hoping for

 

[Deleted member]

I would really prefer not having AT upgrades, let new franchises have a shot. Besides they're already in the game.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The only scenario I could see happening if an AT does becomes playable is where they get to be both a playable character and an AT because removing/replacing/disabling an AT is subtracting content from Ultimate

If you're subtracting an AT, but adding a playable character, that's still a net positive in terms of content.

 

[perfectchaos83]

I would really prefer not having AT upgrades, let new franchises have a shot. Besides they're already in the game.

No reason not to have both.

 

[lady_sky skipper]

Honestly, even though I haven't played Undertale I think Papyrus might be better as a fighter than an AT and you can still have Waluigi be promoted to playable and just replace him with a different character as an Assist trophy. (I have heard of it and know that Undertale is extremely iconic these day and will go down in video game history as an important game.)

 

[AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea]

Given the possibilities for third parties and new characters/franchises from Nintendo being created (Pokemon SwSh, FE TH, Astral Chain), I really don't see a reason for AT upgrades.

While I agree that more new third parties would be more on Nintendo's priority list, Sakurai did mention he wanted to please more fans, and I feel upgrading maybe 1 or 2 assist trophies would achieve that.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

While I agree that more new third parties would be more on Nintendo's priority list, Sakurai did mention he wanted to please more fans, and I feel upgrading maybe 1 or 2 assist trophies would achieve that.

Dr. Wright & Color Game 15 join the battle!

 

[lady_sky skipper]

I honestly want to see Chef Kawasaki, Sheriff, and Starfy get promoted to playable one day if not as DLC, then hopefully Smash 6. Although your idea of Dr Wright being a promoted fighter is awesome SMAASH! Puppy .

 

[Garteam]

Sakurai did say he was somewhat dissappointed in the amount of negative reception the final Smash Direct got in November and a big stickling point for a lot during that were the deconfirmations in the Assist Trophy section. There's no way Sakurai isn't aware of the passion a lot fans hold towards Assist Trophies.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

It also doesn't help that Ubisoft doesn't do much with the franchise nowadays aside from the occasional port of Legends. I feel like a lot of the Rayman hype from the Smash 4 era came from the positive reception of Origins and Legends, so it makes sense that the hype would die down when Ubisoft just sort of forgot about the series. I feel like Rayman would still be a big name in speculation if Ubisoft continued to capitalize on the series' renaissance, but they let it fall back into obscurity so people stopped caring as a result. Hell, I saw more people discussing the possibility of Rabbids during Ultimate's hype cycle than I did Rayman, which should tell you how much the series' dormancy hurt the character's hype.

Rayman being on a hiatus I think its more to do with its creator Michel Ancel, who was the director of Origins and Legends working on two different games right now being Wild and Beyond Good & Evil 2. Plus the series is far from Ubisoft's best selling series so its not really a high priority for the publisher to begin with.

 

[AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea]

Dr. Wright & Color Game 15 join the battle!

Theres no way they would include Color Game 15. The edgeguarding would be too real.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I predict this: If Waluigi is promoted to playable during DLC, the Smash fandom will switch to 'no AT can be promoted in the same game it was introduced' as the next flimsy fan-rule. Spring Man, Nikki, Yuri et al will still be said to be disconfirmed, while some will even debate that Isaac, having been revamped and reintroduced in Ultimate, also counts as disconfirmed.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I predict this: If Waluigi is promoted to playable during DLC, the Smash fandom will switch to 'no AT can be promoted in the same game it was introduced' as the next flimsy fan-rule. Spring Man, Nikki, Yuri et al will still be said to be disconfirmed, while some will even debate that Isaac, having been revamped and reintroduced in Ultimate, also counts as disconfirmed.

The fandom must always have a fan-rule!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Theres no way they would include Color Game 15. The edgeguarding would be too real.

Plot twist: You only have the ability to stop the characters from reaching the blast zone.

I predict this: If Waluigi is promoted to playable during DLC, the Smash fandom will switch to 'no AT can be promoted in the same game it was introduced' as the next flimsy fan-rule. Spring Man, Nikki, Yuri et al will still be said to be disconfirmed, while some will even debate that Isaac, having been revamped and reintroduced in Ultimate, also counts as disconfirmed.

My prediction will be the opposite. If Waluigi gets his promotion the Smash fandom will assume all of the highly requested Assist Trophies will also be in.

 

[lady_sky skipper]

I forgot, I also would love to see Spring Man and Sukapon promoted to playable. (Heck, I'd love to see Max Brass or Helix in Smash too.)

 

[Slime Scholar]

Sakurai did say he was somewhat dissappointed in the amount of negative reception the final Smash Direct got in November and a big stickling point for a lot during that were the deconfirmations in the Assist Trophy section. There's no way Sakurai isn't aware of the passion a lot fans hold towards Assist Trophies.

When and where did he say this? Because this is news to me and I can’t seem to find a source on it.

 

[7NATOR]

Sakurai did say he was somewhat dissappointed in the amount of negative reception the final Smash Direct got in November and a big stickling point for a lot during that were the deconfirmations in the Assist Trophy section. There's no way Sakurai isn't aware of the passion a lot fans hold towards Assist Trophies.

Source?

 

[GoodGrief741]

My prediction will be the opposite. If Waluigi gets his promotion the Smash fandom will assume all of the highly requested Assist Trophies will also be in.

There's one constant with the Smash fandom and that's that they'll always look for reasons why characters can't be in.

 

[Dee Dude]

So question about the additional DLC, who would you want to select the characters this time?

Sakurai & the dev team or Nintendo’s higher-ups again?