Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

Your Direct Reaction


  • Total voters
    310
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
1,673
Anything can happen when it comes to Smash, but replacing an AT with another character so that said AT can become a playable fighter is not 1 of those things. The only scenario I could see happening if an AT does becomes playable is where they get to be both a playable character and an AT because removing/replacing/disabling an AT is subtracting content from Ultimate, which I don't think Sakurai intends on doing.
The game already disables ATs based on specific criteria. Making one of those criteria be "AT X will not spawn when Playable character X" isn't removing content from Ultimate.
 

Guynamednelson

Smash Champion
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
2,062
3DS FC
2105-8742-2099
NNID
Nelson340
Switch FC
SW 4265 6024 9719
Anything can happen when it comes to Smash, but replacing an AT with another character so that said AT can become a playable fighter is not 1 of those things. The only scenario I could see happening if an AT does becomes playable is where they get to be both a playable character and an AT because removing/replacing/disabling an AT is subtracting content from Ultimate, which I don't think Sakurai intends on doing.
You get a ton of **** to be smacked around by when items are on anyway. One less wouldn't hurt. Playable Waluigi doesn't prevent you from having a chance at being buried, and playable Isaac doesn't prevent the Gust Bellows from pushing you away.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
1,330
I'm having a hard time visualizing Rayman as a Western powerhouse.
Poor Rayman got power crept hard once the third party possibilities expanded to new limits with Joker. He may have seemed like a big fish in a pond when the third party possibilities were tied to only "must be related to Nintendo", but after the canal was dug to the ocean of endless third parties he just seems small in comparison.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
1,888
Location
Pepperoni Secret
3DS FC
1590-4951-5915
Switch FC
SW-4366-1207-0908
The game already disables ATs based on specific criteria. Making one of those criteria be "AT X will not spawn when Playable character X" isn't removing content from Ultimate.
This is 100% true, here’s a list of all of those ATs:
2A555BBA-47AE-48E5-AB10-FD94D2A9F1AE.jpeg

No reason they couldn’t block certain ATs from spawning alongside their playable variant, if they deemed it necessary. I think popular Assist Trophies are still on the table for promotion in future DLC.
 
Joined
Jun 23, 2015
Messages
776
Location
Hellworld
no f'ing way are we getting assist trophy upgrades. there's a reason why they are assist trophies (dead franchises, passed over for another character etc.). and even if we get upgraded assists, there's only one character that i could see get the nod and its...waluigi. all those cool characters stuck in AT hell but we get waluigi because meme bull****.
 
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
1,673
This is 100% true, here’s a list of all of those ATs:

No reason they couldn’t block certain ATs from spawning alongside their playable variant, if they deemed it necessary. I think popular Assist Trophies are still on the table for promotion in future DLC.
Some ATs will also not spawn while others are on the field (summoned or not). Shadow will not spawn while Yuri is out on the field for example. The opposite is also true.
 

OrpheusTelos

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 9, 2018
Messages
226
Poor Rayman got power crept hard once the third party possibilities expanded to new limits with Joker. He may have seemed like a big fish in a pond when the third party possibilities were tied to only "must be related to Nintendo", but after the canal was dug to the ocean of endless third parties he just seems small in comparison.
It also doesn't help that Ubisoft doesn't do much with the franchise nowadays aside from the occasional port of Legends. I feel like a lot of the Rayman hype from the Smash 4 era came from the positive reception of Origins and Legends, so it makes sense that the hype would die down when Ubisoft just sort of forgot about the series. I feel like Rayman would still be a big name in speculation if Ubisoft continued to capitalize on the series' renaissance, but they let it fall back into obscurity so people stopped caring as a result. Hell, I saw more people discussing the possibility of Rabbids during Ultimate's hype cycle than I did Rayman, which should tell you how much the series' dormancy hurt the character's hype.
 

Velveeta Dream

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 7, 2019
Messages
322
Location
Parts Unknown
The game already disables ATs based on specific criteria. Making one of those criteria be "AT X will not spawn when Playable character X" isn't removing content from Ultimate.
This is 100% true, here’s a list of all of those ATs:

No reason they couldn’t block certain ATs from spawning alongside their playable variant, if they deemed it necessary. I think popular Assist Trophies are still on the table for promotion in future DLC.
Huh. I've never actually heard about this before. So Knuckles, Kapp'n, and Moon aren't summonable on the stages they appear in while every other character either conflicts with certain stages or just not functional for it (like Devil not being summonable on multiple stages and Alucard not being in Wii Fit Studio because there's no point in developing him without a reflection on that stage). That's certainly interesting, but to say ATs are still possible for DLC is something I won't believe in since the only way to prove that is to reveal an AT actually becoming playable.
 

Guynamednelson

Smash Champion
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
2,062
3DS FC
2105-8742-2099
NNID
Nelson340
Switch FC
SW 4265 6024 9719
Given the possibilities for third parties and new characters/franchises from Nintendo being created (Pokemon SwSh, FE TH, Astral Chain), I really don't see a reason for AT upgrades.
With that logic, they shouldn't have spent time making Mewtwo the first DLC for Smash.
 
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
1,077
Location
The Other Side Of The Computer Screen
3DS FC
0731-5017-6481
NNID
GamerGuy758
Switch FC
SW 1185 9411 4529
ATs are possible, like if Waluigi was DLC they could just take his AT out of rotation when hes in battle. We already have the Moon AT that leaves rotation on Great Bay and Alucard who leaves rotation on levels with mirrors(Wii Fit), so it really wouldnt be that big of a task to just remove an AT when a certain character is being played as. That said, dont hold your breath for AT characters.
 

SKX31

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
324
It also doesn't help that Ubisoft doesn't do much with the franchise nowadays aside from the occasional port of Legends. I feel like a lot of the Rayman hype from the Smash 4 era came from the positive reception of Origins and Legends, so it makes sense that the hype would die down when Ubisoft just sort of forgot about the series. I feel like Rayman would still be a big name in speculation if Ubisoft continued to capitalize on the series' renaissance, but they let it fall back into obscurity so people stopped caring as a result. Hell, I saw more people discussing the possibility of Rabbids during Ultimate's hype cycle than I did Rayman, which should tell you how much the series' dormancy hurt the character's hype.
I feel as if one of the reasons why is simply one question:

"Where do we go after Legends?"

One of the main reasons why AC's been (almost) yearly is not just greed, but also the very wide variety of possible settings (and times) to choose from. I mean, III and Black Flag are not far from each other time wise - whether by release or by setting - but both games introduced new stuff or expanded on things considerably. Ditto Origins and Odyssey. I mean, they've gone 8 main games and never touched Japan as a setting.

Rayman on the other hand is not really as clear. It feels like they did everything they could do with Origins and Legends - not just in terms of "how much stuff can we get into the games?" but also in terms of effort. It's not every time you get to have a musical autoscrolling platformer with Black Betty as the background song. But where does one go with the 2-D New Super Mario Bros-esque games?

Going back to 3-D might be semi-tempting, but I'd argue that Ubisoft got a wee bit scared after Sonic had a very wonky stretch, the first Yooka-Laylee didn't do as well as expected (not commenting on the game's quality, just expectations) and Rayman 3 being the last 3-D title, mixed bag as it was. They'd also need a new dev team able and willing to tackle a 3-D platformer. Not impossible, but I get the feeling Ubi would've been more confident about a 3D Rayman had Sonic Forces or Yooka-Laylee been successful.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
1,039
This is 100% true, here’s a list of all of those ATs:

No reason they couldn’t block certain ATs from spawning alongside their playable variant, if they deemed it necessary. I think popular Assist Trophies are still on the table for promotion in future DLC.
"Alucard can't be summoned in Wii Fit Studio due to the presence of mirrors"
Yet he appears with a reflection in Fountain of Dreams just fine...
He's not a vampire, HE'S A WITCH!
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
2,369
Location
Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
"Alucard can't be summoned in Wii Fit Studio due to the presence of mirrors"
Yet he appears with a reflection in Fountain of Dreams just fine...
He's not a vampire, HE'S A WITCH!
The reasoning for his allowance on Fountain of Dreams has something to do with mirrors using silver rather than vampires just straight up not having reflections. It's probably one of those obscure vampire facts that most media franchises drop for whatever reason (like their inability to cross moving water for some reason).
I feel as if one of the reasons why is simply one question:

"Where do we go after Legends?"

One of the main reasons why AC's been (almost) yearly is not just greed, but also the very wide variety of possible settings (and times) to choose from. I mean, III and Black Flag are not far from each other time wise - whether by release or by setting - but both games introduced new stuff or expanded on things considerably. Ditto Origins and Odyssey. I mean, they've gone 8 main games and never touched Japan as a setting.

Rayman on the other hand is not really as clear. It feels like they did everything they could do with Origins and Legends - not just in terms of "how much stuff can we get into the games?" but also in terms of effort. It's not every time you get to have a musical autoscrolling platformer with Black Betty as the background song. But where does one go with the 2-D New Super Mario Bros-esque games?

Going back to 3-D might be semi-tempting, but I'd argue that Ubisoft got a wee bit scared after Sonic had a very wonky stretch, the first Yooka-Laylee didn't do as well as expected (not commenting on the game's quality, just expectations) and Rayman 3 being the last 3-D title, mixed bag as it was. They'd also need a new dev team able and willing to tackle a 3-D platformer. Not impossible, but I get the feeling Ubi would've been more confident about a 3D Rayman had Sonic Forces or Yooka-Laylee been successful.
The classic Mega Man series has gone on for 11 games without feeling rehashed in any way. It'd take some imagination but I don't think the Rayman series is completely unable to have a new and unique game in the series. Also, the concept art for Rayman 4 has some really cool depictions of areas. I'd love to see these fully realized some day.
 
Last edited:

SKX31

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
324
The classic Mega Man series has gone on for 11 games without feeling rehashed in any way. It'd take some imagination but I don't think the Rayman series is completely unable to have a new and unique game in the series. Also, the concept art for Rayman 4 has some really cool depictions of areas. I'd love to see these fully realized some day.
True, but I'd argue that it's because Capcom was much more willing to do so. It worked for them until the mid 2000s when they spammed too many Megaman releases (X7 and Zero 3 didn't need to be released on the same day. It especially hurt Zero 3 since it's a great game.). Ubisoft never struck me as being that similar to Capcom. Sure they spam AC games, but I'd argue that Ubisoft's way of spamming is different from Capcom's since Ubi attempts to make a clearer distinction between games and make them seem more "unique". Despite what the reality of the matter is.

I'm not saying that the Rayman series can't have a future, it definetely can - what I'm saying is, Ubisoft's the kind of company who gets cold feet real easily. If something isn't working like they wanted to (exactly) - or they stop and wonder what to do next - quick, back to the drawing board! No matter if there's stuff that's legitimately enjoyable (again, Rayman 3 had a lot of good stuff in it) and can be built upon.

Also, oh gosh, you're right. The Rayman 4 areas look great.
 

ryumo the Zekenator

Cause baby there ain't no mountain high enough
Premium
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
3,765
With that logic, they shouldn't have spent time making Mewtwo the first DLC for Smash.
Assist throphies are not the same as regular throphies, plus Mewtwo was a veteran. In the same game we haven't gotten an upgrade yet.

I would think that the moment Nintendo starts making upgrades is the time where they literally can't add anything else. I think Waluigi is a fun character for example but at the same time Nintendo keeps creating a lot of fun characters they can add and with the third parties more on board than ever, they can afford not making any upgrades.
 

Roberk

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2018
Messages
2,508
Assist upgrades are more of a base game thing rather than DLC, just like clones. Notice how Dark Samus was an AT but turned into Echo, Isabelle was an AT but turned into a semiclone, and Chrom was a Final Smash (and still is) and turned into an Echo. These characters got in because they a) were able to reuse assets from Smash 4 and b) were mostly made into Echoes with only Isabelle being somewhat unique. DLC is meant to be worked on from the ground up to be as unique as possible and also "new" to Smash.
 
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
1,673
Assist upgrades are more of a base game thing rather than DLC, just like clones. Notice how Dark Samus was an AT but turned into Echo, Isabelle was an AT but turned into a semiclone, and Chrom was a Final Smash (and still is) and turned into an Echo. These characters got in because they a) were able to reuse assets from Smash 4 and b) were mostly made into Echoes with only Isabelle being somewhat unique. DLC is meant to be worked on from the ground up to be as unique as possible and also "new" to Smash.
Little Mac kinda goes against this.
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
1,888
Location
Pepperoni Secret
3DS FC
1590-4951-5915
Switch FC
SW-4366-1207-0908
If fan popularity is something being considered with later DLC additions (we don’t know one way or another) I could see Sakurai taking a second look at Waluigi and other Assist Trophies that got outcry during the pre-release period.
Not saying it’s something I’d bet money on, but it is a possibility I don’t think should be completely shoved aside.

But also I’m biased because Waluigi is the only character I’m genuinely hoping for
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
1,949
The only scenario I could see happening if an AT does becomes playable is where they get to be both a playable character and an AT because removing/replacing/disabling an AT is subtracting content from Ultimate
If you're subtracting an AT, but adding a playable character, that's still a net positive in terms of content.
 
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Messages
571
Location
Hawaii
Honestly, even though I haven't played Undertale I think Papyrus might be better as a fighter than an AT and you can still have Waluigi be promoted to playable and just replace him with a different character as an Assist trophy. (I have heard of it and know that Undertale is extremely iconic these day and will go down in video game history as an important game.)
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2018
Messages
168
Given the possibilities for third parties and new characters/franchises from Nintendo being created (Pokemon SwSh, FE TH, Astral Chain), I really don't see a reason for AT upgrades.
While I agree that more new third parties would be more on Nintendo's priority list, Sakurai did mention he wanted to please more fans, and I feel upgrading maybe 1 or 2 assist trophies would achieve that.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
2,369
Location
Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
While I agree that more new third parties would be more on Nintendo's priority list, Sakurai did mention he wanted to please more fans, and I feel upgrading maybe 1 or 2 assist trophies would achieve that.
Dr. Wright & Color Game 15 join the battle!
 

Garteam

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
1,102
Location
Canada, eh?
NNID
Garteam
Sakurai did say he was somewhat dissappointed in the amount of negative reception the final Smash Direct got in November and a big stickling point for a lot during that were the deconfirmations in the Assist Trophy section. There's no way Sakurai isn't aware of the passion a lot fans hold towards Assist Trophies.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Messages
63
Location
Medford, Oregon
It also doesn't help that Ubisoft doesn't do much with the franchise nowadays aside from the occasional port of Legends. I feel like a lot of the Rayman hype from the Smash 4 era came from the positive reception of Origins and Legends, so it makes sense that the hype would die down when Ubisoft just sort of forgot about the series. I feel like Rayman would still be a big name in speculation if Ubisoft continued to capitalize on the series' renaissance, but they let it fall back into obscurity so people stopped caring as a result. Hell, I saw more people discussing the possibility of Rabbids during Ultimate's hype cycle than I did Rayman, which should tell you how much the series' dormancy hurt the character's hype.
Rayman being on a hiatus I think its more to do with its creator Michel Ancel, who was the director of Origins and Legends working on two different games right now being Wild and Beyond Good & Evil 2. Plus the series is far from Ubisoft's best selling series so its not really a high priority for the publisher to begin with.
 
Top