DaybreakHorizon
Beauty in the Chaos
Not like that's all that great of data...
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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion
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Cutie Gwen
Lovely warrior
I mean, last I checked that outright isn't the case but go on
See, there's one problem with using this as evidence. If someone looked up a video game because they don't know about it, did some research by looking at the series' history and maybe even gameplay and then think "I don't like this", it'd still get counted towards the results here
TheYungLink
Smash Lord
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You know how a lot of people, after E3 2019, claimed that Japan reacted to Banjo & Kazooie the same way a lot of Westerners reacted to The Hero, in that they were supposedly received in a very lukewarm way? That was proven false as plenty of Japanese Nintendo fans remembered the Banjo-Kazooie games like Westerners did, but I think that, if Doomguy was ever confirmed, then it really WOULD be like that for them.
A Google search makes something unknown become known. Like or not a series have the same result to advance the series in the popular culture.
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Nquoid
Smash Ace
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The intriguing thing about Doom is that it is pretty much the birth of an entire genre (obviously Wolfenstein 3D came first, as well so first person perspective games), and it's legacy is something that Sakurai has acknowledged.
I think from a fighters pass perspective, it's a long shot (although one that hovers around my top 5 for that last slot), because of the way they talked about conversations with Rare/Microsoft being harder than anything else they had done, and the lack of appeal in Japan. It just makes Western reps that bit more shake-y.
Plus, that poll of Japan's favourite first person games includes Overwatch, which is a game that would get Nintendo into some markets they're not really in a lot easier than Doom would, and aesthetically it's probably a better fit overall than Doom Just in terms of how a character like Tracer is presented and given a personality. (not that Doom Slayer doesn't have a personality).
So in summary; Doom, great game, great legacy that Sakurai is well aware of, but I doubt it for the first pass.
I think from a fighters pass perspective, it's a long shot (although one that hovers around my top 5 for that last slot), because of the way they talked about conversations with Rare/Microsoft being harder than anything else they had done, and the lack of appeal in Japan. It just makes Western reps that bit more shake-y.
Plus, that poll of Japan's favourite first person games includes Overwatch, which is a game that would get Nintendo into some markets they're not really in a lot easier than Doom would, and aesthetically it's probably a better fit overall than Doom Just in terms of how a character like Tracer is presented and given a personality. (not that Doom Slayer doesn't have a personality).
So in summary; Doom, great game, great legacy that Sakurai is well aware of, but I doubt it for the first pass.
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Cutie Gwen
Lovely warrior
Yes but the discussion was whether or not Japan liked Doom, not if they knew it
DevaAshera
Smash Champion
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Dude, we've already mentioned Dante.> Xenoblade 2 choices that aren’t Rex
> no mention of THE ZEKENATOR, CHAOTIC BRINGER OF CHAOS (TM)
Come on guyssss
Honestly..I'd much rather people be okay with sexual content than hyper violence..just saying..
But no, that's not how it works..Hentai is still Adult Only..
Thats not quite the point though.
Any DLC released has to at least have the potential to sell in all territories and as Nintendo and Sakurai are both located in Japan, conscious or not, there will be a focus on pleasing Japanese fans. Even if something isn't entirely targeted at them, they'll still be considered when making decisions. Were Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo-Kazooie primarily for the West? Yes, but they are still well enough known and popular enough requests in Japan.
StormC
Smash Hero
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The violence thing is weird though. I think "realistic" violence, like, CG-simulated violence in video games, is a big no no. But Resident Evil is popular in Japan, despite being censored quite a bit. And obviously there are tons of classic anime and manga that are very violent (although nowadays most children/family anime is pretty tame compared to like... stuff made in the 70s-90s).
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Pinguino21v
Smash Ace
People already answered about why Rex is a front-runner in the list of first party. I am, however, more fond of Elma for both being a rarer stereotype (woman, dark skin) and having a strong potential moveset, switching between dual blades and dual guns, and having Skells (big mecha). Elma may also put XCX in light again, it didn't got the success it deserve.
It should be a "possible" character, with ties with Nintendo, without much hatred and with, on the contrary, an overall "I'm fine with that" feeling by the Smash fans, meanwhile not being outstanding. That's why Ryu Hayabusa feels believable. However, it's only based on debunked leaks, rumors, and his recent appearance as DLC in another Ultimate game seems to explains the false leaks to me.
In my opinion, it's probably a Capcom rep, either be it a Resident Evil character or, what I believe the most, Phoenix Wright. The latter is not a pass selling, but he have strong ties with Nintendo and would overall be easily accepted.
I'm believing that too. Doom may be the original FPS, the lack of Japanese recognition is a killer in my opinion. It's even worse for Master Chief in that regard. If we ever have a FPS character, it's Overwatch, but it will have to fight against the biggest MMO of all time, World of Warcraft, for the spot. Hard to say who would win. But IMO, both are definitely not coming.
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I know I'm a bit late on this, but man, if Rex would somehow still make it into the game? That'd be a surefire way for me to not buy all of the Fighter DLC for this game. I can see myself getting the Fighter's Pass as it is eventually, but there's no way in hell that I'm ever shilling out any money for that ******, even if it's part of some pack. The only character from (main game) 2 that I'd really accept would be Malos as a Shulk Echo/semi-clone. Zeke and Mòrag wouldn't be bad, but not good enough to convince me, either.
osby
Smash Obsessed
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I mean, it's the exact opposite in US, so I think it's just people being people.
Y'know, us treating the Japanese Audience as some kind of alien race who only likes VERY specific stuff when, in actuality, they're human and each individual human has different tastes, is very odd.
Like, don't get me wrong Western taste and Japanese taste DEFINITELY differs but that doesn't mean that Japan immediately sees something and says "Oh that's an FPS? Oh that's a Western made Game? Welp, it looks cool but too bad I'm not going to play it for those reasons." For instance, Grand Theft Auto V was SURPRISINGLY popular over there at the time. I have no hard evidence to back it up but a highschool classmate of mine went over there for the summer that GTAV came out and said that's all anyone was talking about around the month he was there.
It's not necessarily that Western games don't sale, or don't appeal, over in Japan. It's more so that... Japan is REALLY small. REALLY small. And they REALLY don't have time for games according to studies. It's about the size of California so anything selling really REALLY good just means it broke a million units over there. And those things usually only happen with Dragon Quest. If a western game breaks 100,000 over there it's a miracle and it's not necessarily that way because they're Xenophobic or the games don't appeal to them it's just that, from what I can gather, Japan doesn't really play that much games and especially not CONSOLE games.
Like, don't get me wrong Western taste and Japanese taste DEFINITELY differs but that doesn't mean that Japan immediately sees something and says "Oh that's an FPS? Oh that's a Western made Game? Welp, it looks cool but too bad I'm not going to play it for those reasons." For instance, Grand Theft Auto V was SURPRISINGLY popular over there at the time. I have no hard evidence to back it up but a highschool classmate of mine went over there for the summer that GTAV came out and said that's all anyone was talking about around the month he was there.
It's not necessarily that Western games don't sale, or don't appeal, over in Japan. It's more so that... Japan is REALLY small. REALLY small. And they REALLY don't have time for games according to studies. It's about the size of California so anything selling really REALLY good just means it broke a million units over there. And those things usually only happen with Dragon Quest. If a western game breaks 100,000 over there it's a miracle and it's not necessarily that way because they're Xenophobic or the games don't appeal to them it's just that, from what I can gather, Japan doesn't really play that much games and especially not CONSOLE games.
You can ask anyone around here at the time Little Mac or Ridley was revealed and I can GUARANTEE you that Japan had no idea who either of those characters were. K. Rool and Banjo? Sure, they're somewhat relevant but Ridley and Mac? Imagine how the West reacted to Terry and Hero and apply it to Japan's point of view, except Japan was probably more polite.
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DarthEnderX
Smash Hero
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Yeah, and what changed is MS stopped being #1 and became desperate to seem cool again.
DevaAshera
Smash Champion
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Yeah, though there is a pretty big difference here.
Ridley & Little Mac were part of the initial rosters of their games and are completely Nintendo characters, 1st Party even.
However, while you might be right about Little Mac's obscurity to Japan, Ridley is still a well known character. While Metroid as a series sells better in the West than in Japan, its no slouch in Japan and Ridley is the biggest villains (and he also appeared prominently in both Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Smash Bros. for Wii U). He's not obscure to the point of no one knowing who he is.
My point is that DLC still has to sell in Japan and Nintendo is more likely to pick a character from a series well known enough worldwide rather than just in Japan.
Also, I am honestly shocked by the amount of people that don't know Terry Bogard to be perfectly honest.
DrifloonEmpire
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I guess there aren't as many fans of traditional fighting games in the Smash community, and SNK's big popularity comes from mainly the arcade scene, which has greatly dwindled in the west. Everyone knows Street Fighter, it's basically the poster child of traditional fighters for those outside of that sphere (with other more well-known traditional fighters being on consoles such as Tekken and Soul Calibur), so SNK definitely wouldn't be on their radar. Hell, I didn't even know who Terry was until I came here. I guess it just depends on the community you're in. Still, it's nice to see SNK get some well-deserved attention!
If I may offer my two cents on DOOM first: honestly, wouldn't be surprised if it was just overshadowed. One thing I should point out though is that video games were simply marketed as - and then took on a toy-like connotation for the entire family. If you watch old (80s-early 90s) Japanese game ads one notices that. In the U.S though... if you look up old game ads you will see ads targeted towards stereotypical (teenage) boy interests as early as 1988, if not earlier.
Of course, I'm not saying he has an equal say as Sakurai when it comes to Ultimate's DLC. What I'm saying is, what Furukawa looks for could be a factor. For example Furukawa suggesting something to Sakurai since it introduces the Japanese to said IP.
While there will be an inevitable Japanese focus I do wonder if Furukawa's (I really feel people are underestimating Nintendo's President) push to globalize Nintendo will affect Ultimate's DLC. Of course, Furukawa has stated that's a medium-to-long-term project, but he wants Nintendo to reach millions of people in non-primary regions at one point. Such as the Middle East, Southeast Asia and China.
Of course, I'm not saying he has an equal say as Sakurai when it comes to Ultimate's DLC. What I'm saying is, what Furukawa looks for could be a factor. For example Furukawa suggesting something to Sakurai since it introduces the Japanese to said IP.
StormC
Smash Hero
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I don't think it's just about size (your California comparison is off; California's population is ~40 million and Japan's population is 126 million).
GTAV was definitely popular in Japan. A surprise breakout hit. It happens. But overall Japanese gamers heavily favor Japanese games. It isn't even close.
https://sites.google.com/site/gamedatalibrary/list-of-million-sellers
Scroll through here and see how long it takes you to get to a western game. Even longer if you don't count DKC (Nintendo published). Japan is, generally speaking, fairly insular with regards to how it engages with its own media vs. foreign media. Their entertainment industry is a massive juggernaut rivaled only by the United States and China, Japanese people grow up surrounded by their own movies, shows, games, etc. That isn't to say certain western media can't catch on (and many western media becomes influential for Japanese creators), many western movies and shows are popular in Japan for various reasons, but because the console gaming industry was carried largely on the back of Japanese companies in the third generation, that is their familiarity point for gaming.
As someone who's been to Japan, it's really hard to understand unless you're there, but Japanese characters are EVERYWHERE. Stores, advertisements, public service things (when I got off the train in Hiroshima there was a poster of Evangelion characters telling me where to go)... I think on some level there is a sense of pride among Japanese people regarding their characters and media. They like things that are distinctly "theirs." That isn't to say they don't enjoy western media or they are xenophobic. There is simply a strong cultural idea in Japan of being prideful of Japanese things, I feel.
Certain western games and series catch on in Japan, definitely. DKC, Crash, Skyrim, Minecraft, GTAV, even some COD games. It's far from the norm though. Because of the history of console manufacturing in Japan and PC gaming not quite catching on over there like it did in the west, I think they are just more predisposed to their own games. The console market shrinking big time certainly doesn't help though, along with the proliferation of mobile and portable gaming (where Japanese developers have gotten very, very good at capturing markets).
DevaAshera
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Yeah, thats honestly part of my point, Nintendo would likely pick more globally popular picks over ones just popular in one or the other..at least for DLC since, well, it needs to sell in all territories and there are other 3rd Party (and 1st/2nd Party) pics that they could pick that are not only more popular but fit that criteria better.
Koopaul
Smash Champion
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One thing to note is that Sakurai is aware that his audience is not just Japan. He realizes that this game is a worldwide phenomenon. It makes sense that he would reveal Hero and Banjo at the same E3 and save Banjo for last.
So really there's no telling what might happen. He might throw in another Western favorite that is not popular in Japan. However, even if that is true, Doom Slayer has a TON of competition.
So really there's no telling what might happen. He might throw in another Western favorite that is not popular in Japan. However, even if that is true, Doom Slayer has a TON of competition.
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It's not necessarily / just the commercial aspect. To turn that around: it could also be a question of keeping committed fans happy, spreading the Nintendo love to other regions or trying to do both. Somewhere within that scale.
True, but that can be a bit wonky. Nintendo has a small but growing presence in Iran. Thing is Iran's gaming sphere is heavily hard-core. We're talking "I won't play Smash unless I get to play as Snake or Bayonetta!" hardcore.
EDIT: TIL Crash is actually a fan pick in Iran. So him getting into Smash would raise Smash's profile there.
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Guybrush20X6
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All we know about Nintendo's shortlist is that it was quite a wide selection and it was Sakurai who made the final decision from what was in that list. It was wide enough that Joker, who's only Nintendo contribution is a Dungeon Crawler spin-off, was able to be picked.
ze9
Smash Ace
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Actually, we don't even know if there was a shortlist in the first place.
Cutie Gwen
Lovely warrior
Considering we only have 1 bad pick so far this should be more interesting
MasterOfKnees
Space Pirate
Ridley's lack of popularity in Japan is pretty overstated, he wasn't nearly as requested as in the west, but he still had a few fans, for example he appeared on polls both for pre-Smash 4 and for DLC, as well as being near the top of the official Brawl pre-release poll. It would fluctuate a bit just how often he'd appear on polls like these, but he clearly wasn't a nobody, and iirc Japanese speculators were also well aware of his overseas popularity.
Not to mention Ridley literally appeared in all previous Smash games, and the first three Metroid games also sold really well in Japan, iirc the original even sold better in Japan than anywhere else, the series' sales only started declining in Japan with Prime. Ridley was never a literal who in Japan, he just didn't appeal to Japanese fans as much as western ones, it wasn't about whether they knew about him or not, because they did.
ze9
Smash Ace
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Yeah Joker was pretty bad but at least he was the first.
Nquoid
Smash Ace
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fixed
Flyboy
Smash Hero
Hey, if more "Nintendo picks" means a pass like this one, I'm all for it.
Also, regarding markets, it's not the only thing to consider but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered at all. Characters like Tracer or Steve may have popularity and marketability, but they also have fanbases. It's not locking ourselves into a box - if anything this new news is giving us more to consider, stuff we'd never even think of in the Smash 4 days. I mean, a PC game rep? That's ridiculous to even think about! And yet here we are with Joker and four Dragon Quest heroes and Banjo-Kazooie and Terry Bogard in one game.
Also, regarding markets, it's not the only thing to consider but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered at all. Characters like Tracer or Steve may have popularity and marketability, but they also have fanbases. It's not locking ourselves into a box - if anything this new news is giving us more to consider, stuff we'd never even think of in the Smash 4 days. I mean, a PC game rep? That's ridiculous to even think about! And yet here we are with Joker and four Dragon Quest heroes and Banjo-Kazooie and Terry Bogard in one game.
Cutie Gwen
Lovely warrior
I'm just hoping it means some more left field picks like idk, Miriam Bloodstained
Guybrush20X6
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If there's no more passes, then they can switch between Nintendo newcomers and new 3rd parties as they don't need to share the same price point. Not to mention that they can also sell stages as seperate DLC like the N64 stages in Smash 4.
If that's what it takes to get Pac-Maze and Rainbow Road 7 back...
If that's what it takes to get Pac-Maze and Rainbow Road 7 back...
The_Naraotor
Smash Ace
I wanted to rebounce on those two comments, I think we need to put into perspective all of that to Japan history, mainly the part where America forced Japan to go out of their isolationism. And I think that spirit "the isolationist attitude" still stem in Japan DNA it's not like they are racist it's more like they are self centered kind of like a egoistic view of themselves and that only Japan only matters. I feel and StromC said it well that japan view first themselves then the rest of the world. That feel that view is more due to how their education works and it's something that go back way before the Meiji Era where Japanese people were alone with themselves. It's hard to erase centuries of behavior like that even though that's also 2 centuries that Japan is now in the world game.
Also I surmise that their defeat in world wide 2 pushed japan people to bring them into isolation again, but it's just an assumption from my part.
In addition I'd like to point out that most of western release movies come late in Japan for example promotion for John Wick Parabellum just started in japan for its release I saw that on Oricon.
Does that mean that we will have the full list of character that will be release after the fighters pass ?
Pinguino21v
Smash Ace
Here's lie my hopes for Isaac promotion.
MasterOfKnees
Space Pirate
Doomguy is in this very weird spot where, yeah, he's relatively obscure in Japan, but he's got historical value, and that's something that tends to carry a lot of weight for Sakurai. In that regard I think he's definitely got an edge over other western characters that are unpopular in Japan, like Master Chief or Spyro, but whether it's enough for him to make it in is another question.
I think the primary issue with western-owned IPs is the language barrier, it obviously doesn't stop western characters from getting in, but I do think it limits how many we'll get. If we get someone like Crash for example, I doubt we'll see another western character (that is with the expectation we're getting around 4-5 additional characters), just because it's a lot more complicated to add them from the Smash team's point of view. Like, Sakurai was concerned things might get lost in translation when it came to just a single music track, I imagine the implementation of a whole character then is quite the hassle, especially if the company is strict on how the character is supposed to be represented (which probably wasn't the case with Banjo).
I think the primary issue with western-owned IPs is the language barrier, it obviously doesn't stop western characters from getting in, but I do think it limits how many we'll get. If we get someone like Crash for example, I doubt we'll see another western character (that is with the expectation we're getting around 4-5 additional characters), just because it's a lot more complicated to add them from the Smash team's point of view. Like, Sakurai was concerned things might get lost in translation when it came to just a single music track, I imagine the implementation of a whole character then is quite the hassle, especially if the company is strict on how the character is supposed to be represented (which probably wasn't the case with Banjo).
Michael the Spikester
Smash Obsessed
>Violent debate again
Please don't...
Already debunks that rule and Sakurai breaks fan rules all the time.
Also they manage to make Scorpion, Sub-Zero and Raiden work in Injustice toning them down, you know one of the most violent video games of all time and among the reasons the ESRB exists. If they can manage to pull that off then Doom Slayer in Smash is no exception.
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ceterisparibus
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With all due respect that does not make any sense at all. How is a Japanese audience suddenly going to receive a game/genre that has bombed consistently warmly? Banjo did perform way better than any of the DOOM games so that's not a good comparison either.
So if certain genres are not well received in Japan (the homebase of Nintendo/Sakurai), isn't it fair to say that these games would be less favored because it may end up resulting in lost sales?
Injustice isn't smash, and even if the violence isn't a problem (it's fine), there's no indication that DOOM will be more favored because its not well received in Japan...you know the place where sakurai mentioned about raising the profile of Japanese games?>Violent debate again
Please don't...
Already debunks that rule and Sakurai breaks fan rules all the time.
Also they manage to make Scorpion, Sub-Zero and Raiden work in Injustice toning them down, you know one of the most violent video games of all time and among the reasons the ESRB exists. If they can manage to pull that off then Doom Slayer in Smash is no exception.
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