Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Momotsuki]

So, wait, I know I had a little joke about it, but are there actually people seriously discussing Nightmare, like, Nightmare of Kirby fame, being one of our remaining DLC fighters? I cannot for the life of me see that happening, however... It does sound like a really awesome idea. He's got a cool design, could make for cool gameplay and would also really blindside speculation in regards to Kirby representation. I think I'd like that a lot!

 

[ZelDan]

So, wait, I know I had a little joke about it, but are there actually people seriously discussing Nightmare, like, Nightmare of Kirby fame, being one of our remaining DLC fighters? I cannot for the life of me see that happening, however... It does sound like a really awesome idea. He's got a cool design, could make for cool gameplay and would also really blindside speculation in regards to Kirby representation. I think I'd like that a lot!

I don't think so?

If any Nightmare is having any serious Smash speculation/discussion, it's probably the one from Soul Calibur.

 

[Shroob]

So, wait, I know I had a little joke about it, but are there actually people seriously discussing Nightmare, like, Nightmare of Kirby fame, being one of our remaining DLC fighters? I cannot for the life of me see that happening, however... It does sound like a really awesome idea. He's got a cool design, could make for cool gameplay and would also really blindside speculation in regards to Kirby representation. I think I'd like that a lot!

Nightmare of Soul Calibur.

 

[Momotsuki]

I don't think so?

If any Nightmare is having any serious Smash speculation/discussion, it's probably the one from Soul Calibur.

Nightmare of Soul Calibur.

I mean, yeah I figured it had to be some other Nightmare people were talking about (surely a relatively common character name!) but I had to make sure. Thank you for clarifying. My point that Nightmare of Kirby would be cool as hell still stands though. Just putting it out there, I'd be down.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So, wait, I know I had a little joke about it, but are there actually people seriously discussing Nightmare, like, Nightmare of Kirby fame, being one of our remaining DLC fighters? I cannot for the life of me see that happening, however... It does sound like a really awesome idea. He's got a cool design, could make for cool gameplay and would also really blindside speculation in regards to Kirby representation. I think I'd like that!

I'm not entirely sure that I'd hate it, but it'd be a really odd choice. Even if we were to skip Bandana Waddle Dee and go for a villain, Magolor is much more prominent, and Dark Matter is more important to the series as a whole to the point where nearly every final boss after him takes visual cues from him. I think I'd prefer one of the other Dream Friends if we were to go beyond Bandana Waddle Dee for the next pick.

EDIT: Or Dark Matter. I just realized he isn't a Dream Friend.

 

[Momotsuki]

I'm not entirely sure that I'd hate it, but it'd be a really odd choice. Even if we were to skip Bandana Waddle Dee and go for a villain, Magolor is much more prominent, and Dark Matter is more important to the series as a whole to the point where nearly every final boss after him takes visual cues from him. I think I'd prefer one of the other Dream Friends if we were to go beyond Bandana Waddle Dee for the next pick.

I genuinely don't know if this makes me sound contrarian, but one of the biggest sources of Nightmare's appeal for me would be precisely because he's likely the most absolutely bizarre choice for a Kirby rep in general, let alone a Kirby villain.

As a side note, if our only assist trophy upgrade went to this guy of all people... that'd just be hilarious.

 

[SNEKeater]

I [REDACTED]ing love Hades, was always my most wanted KI rep if we were to get another one. I take it back, Black Shadow can go elsewhere, this is what we need. His taunts, HIS TAUNTS.

He's one of my most wanteds when it comes to first party characters, but he's not gonna make it for DLC like at all. And for Smash 6 base game probably not as well, unless there's a new KI game coming in the next years or something.

One of the best villains Nintendo has, if not the best one. Medusa is cool as well and I guess she could work as an echo for Palutena (though I never understood why she would be an echo, I mean, I don't remember her being similar to Palutena at all)

Also, Hades reveal trailer would be so EASY to make. Like:

• Nintendo Direct ends
• Usual Nintendo logo that pop ups at the end of each Direct
• This happens:

 

[Momotsuki]

He's one of my most wanteds when it comes to first party characters, but he's not gonna make it for DLC like at all. And for Smash 6 base game probably not as well, unless there's a new KI game coming in the next years or something.

One of the best villains Nintendo has, if not the best one. Medusa is cool as well and I guess she could work as an echo for Palutena (though I never understood why she would be an echo, I mean, I don't remember her being similar to Palutena at all)

Also, Hades reveal trailer would be so EASY to make. Like:

• Nintendo Direct ends
• Usual Nintendo logo that pop ups at the end of each Direct
• This happens:

Nintendo Di- Nintendo Direct? What are you talking about, what is that?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So you're telling me that if Ganondorf was not added as a clone of Captain Falcon, there is a possibility that the The Legend of Zelda series would not have any form of its main villain right now? We can agree to disagree on everything else, but I'm gonna have to call B.S. here.

Yes. I don't think he was ever a guarantee without a special situation. Brawl? No. Maybe by 4 or Ultimate, on the other hand.

Ganondorf nor Ganon were ever playable in a Zelda game(outside of fan ones) till Hyrule Warriors, so 4 is the earliest he'd have gained inspiration. Otherwise, the clone situation made tons of sense. He wasn't in a good situation to actually be playable beyond that. That's why we don't see his original form anywhere, just whatever his current form tied to the specific version of Ganondorf as a Final Smash. It feels honestly lucky OOT Ganon is a boss(and a cool one at that. Much better than TP's version, as he actually flows well. He's a mean boss due to a super specific hitbox, but arguably easier than Marx, who is fast enough to make him more tedious to hit than outright hard).

He doesn't even add villains as playable that often. So it's a fairly special occasion when it happens. You can also notice that a lot of the times that villain happens to be playable within the series too. Might be a coincidence, but being playable can also make them feel right for a moveset. When they're purely an NPC, you don't have that same option of "this feels like the guy you control" anymore. I think Sephiroth was playable in Dissidia, so that makes King K. Rool the only literal situation where he was never playable, though I think he was in a Mario spin-off? But that doesn't count considering what I said. To be frank, Ganondorf having fan demand wasn't even enough on its own. He got in specifically cause he had the right model at the right time that was from a demo. Nor do I really have any good reason he'd have been unique in Brawl either unless it was Toon Ganondorf. TP Ganondorf would've been too easy to work with more focused on using someone else as a base. And he didn't even have a logical sword to make a moveset out of(as the Sword of Sages is designed for a fast-paced character, which Ganondorf is not in TP. He's actually still fairly slow, though more like Smash Melee slow even then).

To be fair, that mechanic was universally removed due to how incredibly unbalanced it was. Steve did make it work though, so maybe they could give it back to him in the future.

Overall it's been a notable part for him to have gliding. So his entire playstyle was changed. Many characters who glided had a similar issue too going into 4. That said, I'd give that to Dark Pit instead to focus on making him feel more different. I'd also honestly remove Daisy's floating so she would play more differently. Aesthetic changes aside(though they could just remove her Toad-relates moves and figure out an alternate Neutral B. What, I'm not sure. Maybe something from Super Mario Land or an item from the Mario Party/Kart/etc. series?).

On another note, I wouldn't mind if gliding was more selective anyway. There's many characters who actually have gliding skills in their home series(whether it's the games or various adaptions). For instance, you have Toon Link and BOTW Link who both have that as part of their item lists. It doesn't even have to be an Up B either. Though maybe only BOTW Link, since isn't his recovery still fairly bad?

Side note, he did use to wield The Three Sacred Treasures in his Final Smash, so they weren't removed completely...until they gave him the Lightning Chariot for some reason. I will never defend that change.

Yeah, it seems like he's being changed for some unknown reason. I get the change into 4, removing Final Smashes that does a ton of summons. Maybe Lightning Chariot was faster overall? Since the cutscenes in Ultimate were streamlined to be intentionally "faster" to make them feel cutscene-like(not that all are, but some are). Giga Bowser is actually one of the worst ones, since he's really bad, and he had enough issues in Brawl/4 due too. The only time he's honestly been cool is as a boss(and playing as him through hacking I can definitely say he'd be way better separated off anyway. He'd make a great echo, as I mentioned before).

 

[Kokiden]

Not to be pessimistic, but it would suck if the miis for Sephiroth pack aren't even FF7 characters because for some reason, it was difficult to negotiate for them + Sephiroth.

All this talk of Cloud and Sephiroth being difficult to acquire, or expensive to be more accurate, makes me wonder.

That said, I'd like to say Tifa, Barrett and Aerith are likely for miis, but this is the same company that only allowed Cloud to have 2 songs in smash after all.

Sephiroth + lots of music + miis of multiple FF7 characters? Sounds like a lot.

Still, I am hopeful.

 

[Momotsuki]

If Sakurai thought he could get away with it, our actual Bowser would just be Giga Bowser scaled down a bit, and you all know it. Not that I'd mind!

On the subject... at least in Ultimate, playing as Giga Bowser via mods, he's easily the single worst character in the game. As a boss, he doesn't flinch or get launched. As a fighter, he's got Bowser's tough guy but after that he's just gonna get sent flying. Being the better part of the screen isn't doing him any favors. While his moves are covering a lot of area, his up-smash being his token very-good move, he's gotta do his taxes before he can actually respond to your input. For my personal mod setup, I have his weight cranked up to a downright ridiculous number to try and compensate for this a little bit.

 

[N3ON]

Ganondorf was clearly only a matter of time. If he hadn't been included in Melee I can't imagine Brawl would've come and gone without him, considering both how heavily it took from Twilight Princess and that since Ganondorf was added to Melee due to popularity... can you imagine how popular he'd have been on the Brawl poll, and in general?

And also just that it's... Zelda's main villain. Had they held off til Brawl I have every confidence he would've been unique too.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

You know, one pipedream I was lowkey hoping tonsee at TGA was for Vanilla ware to announced 13 Sentinels was coming to switch lol

 

[Momotsuki]

You know, one pipedream I was lowkey hoping tonsee at TGA was for Vanilla ware to announced 13 Sentinels was coming to switch lol

They started talking about Among Us and I left. It was only ten at night, I couldn't have myself getting too sleepy. Once the site updated and I knew there wasn't a double reveal, I knew I didn't need to keep tabs on all that poppycock so I never checked back in.

Tangent, yeah I know. But still. Smart thing to do? Save Smash for near the end, I would've sufferred through the balderdash.
Anyway, good night.

 

[cothero]

With Sephiroth's inclusion (a second third party character who's not an echo from a same franchise), i just realized that Mega Man X is quite a possibility. Although physically similar, they're completely different characters with very different moveset potential. Plus, MMX is the second most famous title in the entire franchise. Okay, that's just me fanboying, but let's face it: X games are way cooler than the classic MM ones. Imagine X summoning Zero for his final smash... Oh, and let's not forget all the awesong music:

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yes. I don't think he was ever a guarantee without a special situation. Brawl? No. Maybe by 4 or Ultimate, on the other hand.

Ganondorf nor Ganon were ever playable in a Zelda game(outside of fan ones) till Hyrule Warriors, so 4 is the earliest he'd have gained inspiration. Otherwise, the clone situation made tons of sense. He wasn't in a good situation to actually be playable beyond that. That's why we don't see his original form anywhere, just whatever his current form tied to the specific version of Ganondorf as a Final Smash. It feels honestly lucky OOT Ganon is a boss(and a cool one at that. Much better than TP's version, as he actually flows well. He's a mean boss due to a super specific hitbox, but arguably easier than Marx, who is fast enough to make him more tedious to hit than outright hard).

He doesn't even add villains as playable that often. So it's a fairly special occasion when it happens. You can also notice that a lot of the times that villain happens to be playable within the series too. Might be a coincidence, but being playable can also make them feel right for a moveset. When they're purely an NPC, you don't have that same option of "this feels like the guy you control" anymore.

NPCs get in all the time though. Heck, Zelda and Sheik are NPCs that did basically nothing before their inclusion. Ganon and Ganondorf have had (sometimes multiple) duels with you, which would have been perfect for inspiration. And while villains seem to be few and far between in this series, that's more because they tend to either be one-offs, or have a plethora of heroes above them in the hierarchy of importance for that series. Ganon and Ganondorf don't have either problem as seen by the fact that there are technically only two other characters that were added alongside him. Also, he's one of the most iconic Nintendo villains, second only to Bowser. It may have come at the cost of another character like Pit or R.O.B. or something, but the idea that he wouldn't have been added in Brawl seems highly unlikely, and the idea that he wouldn't have been added at all is unfathomable to me (though that idea may have been a result of a miscommunication).

I'd also honestly remove Daisy's floating so she would play more differently.

Me too. I think it would be cool if she got a third jump since her special movement ability in Super Mario Run (her only playable platformer appearance) is double jumping.

Yeah, it seems like he's being changed for some unknown reason. I get the change into 4, removing Final Smashes that does a ton of summons. Maybe Lightning Chariot was faster overall? Since the cutscenes in Ultimate were streamlined to be intentionally "faster" to make them feel cutscene-like(not that all are, but some are).

That's probably the reason, but it still feels really random. I think making the initial barrage from the Three Sacred Treasures more focused would have been much better.

 

[Idon]

Honestly, changing Ganondorf to have at least a few of his moves wouldn't even be difficult, at least for Ocarina of Time.

Change the jab from a right palm thrust to him backhanding you with a a left backfist with the cape
Change the aerial wizard's foot from a dark elemental divekick to an electric elemental divepunch
Change the aerial version of warlock punch into the electro ball.

This is less changes than the Sword Smashes and it's more accurate to canon.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

NPCs get in all the time though. Heck, Zelda and Sheik are NPCs that did basically nothing before their inclusion. Ganon and Ganondorf have had (sometimes multiple) duels with you, which would have been perfect for inspiration. And while villains seem to be few and far between in this series, that's more because they tend to either be one-offs, or have a plethora of heroes above them in the hierarchy of importance for that series. Ganon and Ganondorf don't have either problem as seen by the fact that there are technically only two other characters that were added alongside him. Also, he's one of the most iconic Nintendo villains, second only to Bowser. It may have come at the cost of another character like Pit or R.O.B. or something, but the idea that he wouldn't have been added in Brawl seems highly unlikely, and the idea that he wouldn't have been added at all is unfathomable to me (though that idea may have been a result of a miscommunication).

And Ganondorf's skills in Smash are based upon OOT anyway. But that wasn't enough to get him in.

Also, Zelda/Sheik are a special situation. It was both or nothing. Their entire gimmick was "transformation". Sheik also was fortunate to have a chance at the time, as Sakurai can easily figure out ninja-based gameplay. Look at how well she flows even without Zelda as part of it. Zelda barely had any actual abilities to draw from, and actually doesn't really use her own(less than Gnaondorf, no less, as his animations in Melee are based upon OOT, as I noted before). Zelda had games she was playable in too(albeit, non-canon) and fought also in the comics/TV show. Ganon obviously did too. Ganon isn't in Smash either way, which shows it's not as simple as you're making it.

Site note; Young Link and Toon Link, like Zelda, Sheik, and Ganondorf, were also special situations. Both were clones and wouldn't have gotten in otherwise. Toon Link wasn't just a need for a child version, but he directly used Young Link as a base to create via Melee's assets. The chances of him appearing otherwise are extremely small too. So if we remove all these special situations, we'd just have Link and maybe Ganondorf(by 4 most likely). Incidentally this is why I think the stigma against clones misunderstands why we even have such a good roster to begin with. We'd have lost a major villain without it. Also, Young Link and Ganondorf's core reasons for getting in were "we have enough time for some clones." This is also related to Luigi, Ness, Falcon(maybe on this one only), and Jigglypuff. They had extra time to make more, using someone else as a base in Smash 64. Brawl did something similar, though it had more plans for clones(Toon Zelda, Toon Sheik, the return of Roy and Dr. Mario) too. 4 also had its "last-minute clones". Ultimate seems to be the only game where clones were planned from the start as is. Since the roster was finalized fairly early on, in 2015. Making it so the only character planned later on before the Fighter's Pass was the first DLC, PP(a fun bonus one).

Being iconic clearly wasn't always going to matter enough. There's more situations than that. The most iconic character in any particular game isn't always the most likely(otherwise we'd have Slime and Spring Man(and/or Ribbon Girl), second or first character either. He clearly focuses on the player character as much as he can, and Nintendo has shown to agree. As they chose Hero. We don't know who Sakurai directly would've chosen, but honestly? I'd have seen him going for Hero too, since he's not just easier to make for a moveset(since he has multiple easy animations to borrow from), but the protagonist can often be easier for someone to work with for a first character. The only time that matters less is a fighting game, due to having a different cast layout, and we've started with the mascot character in almost every case(Min Min is the sole exception, and Nintendo chose her anyway).

Ganondorf either was going to still be a clone via his TP design in Brawl(if lucky) or would've come in at 4, IMO, when there was good inspiration for a flowing moveset. His moveset abilities don't actually flow in canon. Ganon is not playable, so there's no point in acting like him existing as iconic matters. They're different versions of the characters in the end. Hell, Giga Bowser is more playable than Ganon ever was in Smash, and that guy's a Smash OC anyway(a very odd Smash OC, but still actually was created for Smash first. Odd thing is Giga still hasn't made a cameo in a Super Mario game anyway. Though I think he would've made one at best in Super Mario Maker if he was a properly playable, and thus, got an amiibo).

Me too. I think it would be cool if she got a third jump since her special movement ability in Super Mario Run (her only playable platformer appearance) is double jumping.

She's in Super Mario Maker too, but it's just a cameo. Worth noting is that it's a "main" game, so it counts. Now why on earth they didn't bother adding Waluigi to Super Mario Run is a good question.

I didn't see her neat jump in SMR, though. Got an animation?

That's probably the reason, but it still feels really random. I think making the initial barrage from the Three Sacred Treasures more focused would have been much better.

My other guess is he's allowed to change Pit massively because he reimagined him, whereas he has to keep many characters nearly the same otherwise. Some isn't even about choices either, but nobody got a severe overhaul either way. Some got quite a few changes, but it's still the same core moveset(which is what he means by alienating players).

I'll just note that it's obviously we'll never agree on the whole Ganondorf thing, but it was worth pointing out how all the Zelda characters except Link are very special situations. Him being iconic was not the core reason he got in. That just helped.

 

[N3ON]

You can very easily come up with a Melee-era moveset for Ganondorf just from the OoT boss fight, let alone for someone who also created movesets for Zelda, Sheik, ICs, and Marth at that time, and further elaborated on almost completely fabricated ones like Fox and Captain Falcon.

Like half the special moves from that era were completely made up.

 

[Cosmic77]

TBH I can't imagine a Zelda character getting in this pass and NOT being related to BotW2.

If that's the case, we basically have nothing to go off of except BotW Zelda and BotW Ganondorf. Even then, we have absolutely no idea what either of them can do because all we got was a short teaser.

 

[Shroob]

TBH I can't imagine a Zelda character getting in this pass and NOT being related to BotW2.

If that's the case, we basically have nothing to go off of except BotW Zelda and BotW Ganondorf. Even then, we have absolutely no idea what either of them can do because all we got was a short teaser.

I know one thing BotW Ganondorf can do


Twitter made me very aware of it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

TBH I can't imagine a Zelda character getting in this pass and NOT being related to BotW2.

If that's the case, we basically have nothing to go off of except BotW Zelda and BotW Ganondorf. Even then, we have absolutely no idea what either of them can do because all we got was a short teaser.

Isn't Impa also in the game but younger? Since I remember her being in regular BOTW. Though I could be off. I don't remember.

I don't see why they'd go with her HW design, as it's a spin-off, but if she's plausible from BOTW2 proper, maybe.

Though honestly I could just as easily see them skip the game too. BOTW Ganondorf would be a really nice choice, though. Poor villain needs more love. Marketing-wise, there's no reason to choose Pig Ganon. Calamaity Ganon clearly doesn't work at all, though the Blights aren't nearly as bad(and would be cool mini-bosses/stage hazards, though?).

If they're trying to go outside the Triforce Trio, there's bound to be another NPC. We already have the Old Man redone alone(and it's not like spoiler characters matter in Smash. Otherwise Sheik wouldn't be there. And obviously Sheik was only there because of Zelda, and vice versa anyway). Another issue is that the Champions(bar Zelda) were all equal overall, so it was pretty difficult to randomly choose one at the time. Nowadays one might be massively more popular enough to stand-out for DLC, though. Like, they're all cool, no doubt. It didn't help that they weren't even treated like the Pokemon Starters either, who actually began to have "blatant stand-outs" due to being a multimedia franchise. Charizard blatantly stood out over the rest of the starters in general. Bulbsaur and Squirtle always stood out more than Charmander too. A lot of it is anime reasons, but even then, certain ones were significantly more popular. That and you only get 1 Starter by default, so it's easier to justify "one" for Smash. Greninja and Incineroar were also unique situations cause Sakurai found something that made them flow very well. It wasn't clearly the case for Villager at first, for instance, so it's been made clear "he can make a moveset work" is not a strong argument. He doesn't always get that luxury and doesn't have ideas immediately. That's ignoring Pokemon having a slot set aside, something no other series has, too.

I'd love another Zelda character, but it's not easy seeing who is the best to choose. There's tons of factors at this point to consider, and we don't know exactly what he's looking for. In addition, what is Nintendo looking for too? They could very easily suggest one of the Champions for DLC, or Impa, or Zelda, or Ganondorf, etc. They chose Sephiroth, they chose Min Min, Joker, and so on.

 

[7NATOR]

Oh by the Way, apparently there was just maintenance in the Game just now. Perhaps it might be preparation for something this week, and Could Imply Sephiroth is Releasing after the Presentation

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

TBH I can't imagine a Zelda character getting in this pass and NOT being related to BotW2.

If that's the case, we basically have nothing to go off of except BotW Zelda and BotW Ganondorf. Even then, we have absolutely no idea what either of them can do because all we got was a short teaser.

If the wall paintings in the trailer are anything to go by, Ganondorf could very well have a trident in BotW2. But yeah, we don't have a lot to go off.

Zelda riding a pack animal for Smash!

 

[Kokiden]

Nowadays, people will redeem the most irredeemable of fictional characters, as long as they're hot.

Hellz yeah. You play DMC5?

Spoiler

Vergil gets off Scott free after besieging Red Grace City for months with his Qliphot tree, causing millions of deaths and wrecking the entire city.

He's hot, cool, and stylish. Fanbase loves him. Myself included.

Crimes? What crimes? Lol

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Also, Zelda/Sheik are a special situation. It was both or nothing. Their entire gimmick was "transformation". Sheik also was fortunate to have a chance at the time, as Sakurai can easily figure out ninja-based gameplay. Look at how well she flows even without Zelda as part of it.

They were a special situation sure, but it was because of Sheik, not Zelda. If Sheik didn't exist, Zelda still would have been added, perhaps even alongside a not clone Ganondorf, since Sheik's slot would have been open for that.

Ganon isn't in Smash either way, which shows it's not as simple as you're making it.

Ganon isn't in Super Smash Bros. because Ganondorf is, and they're technically the same character, so he's not entirely necessary. If neither were squeezed into Super Smash Bros. Melee, there's no way they wouldn't have been one of the first characters on the table for Super Smash Bros. Brawl. It really is that simple for them.

Toon Link wasn't just a need for a child version, but he directly used Young Link as a base to create via Melee's assets.

No they didn't. Toon Link has Young Link's shtick on a conceptual level, but Toon Link would not have been able to have been made using Young Link's assets because they don't have the same proportions. It's like how Isabelle was built from the ground up even though her moveset takes heavy cues from Villager's.

Ganondorf either was going to still be a clone via his TP design in Brawl(if lucky) or would've come in at 4, IMO, when there was good inspiration for a flowing moveset. His moveset abilities don't actually flow in canon. Ganon is not playable, so there's no point in acting like him existing as iconic matters. They're different versions of the characters in the end.

Ganondorf and Ganon are, as you've said, different versions of the same character. So long as one of them is in, they both get representation. That's why it makes sense that Ganon isn't in the game, and why the two existing as iconic matters. To say that they wouldn't get in on their own merits is like saying Peach wouldn't get in on her merits. Or Samus. Or Mewtwo. Or King Dedede. It just doesn't make sense.

Also, if we were to go by your logic, Ganondorf still wouldn't have been added because Nintendo doesn't own Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf, and thus wouldn't use him.

 

[7NATOR]

Hellz yeah. You play DMC5?

Spoiler

Vergil gets off Scott free after besieging Red Grace City for months with his Qliphot tree, causing millions of deaths and wrecking the entire city.

He's hot, cool, and stylish. Fanbase loves him. Myself included.

Crimes? What crimes? Lol

Spoiler: DMC5 Spoilers

To be Fair, that was only One Half of Vergil that caused all that Destruction.

Also Vergil was Dying when he Split himself in Two. He was just trying to Survive. However He did benefit from all the Strength that Urizen got, along with coming to terms for his Humanity. He also manipulated the Situation and did not immedaitly cut Down the Qliphoth Tree because he needed Dante to see him as a Villain still and fight him like it was to the Death.

Now All the Deaths in DMC3 are definitely attributed to him

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Isn't Impa also in the game but younger? Since I remember her being in regular BOTW. Though I could be off. I don't remember.

I don't see why they'd go with her HW design, as it's a spin-off, but if she's plausible from BOTW2 proper, maybe.

Impa's a 120+ year old woman in BotW. BotW2 is a sequel, so she should still be old there. Her Age of Calamity design is basically her granddaughter with shiekah monk accessories and different hair.

 

[Kokiden]

Sephiroth is iconic, but I think a lot of people are starting to believe he's the most iconic third-party villain simply because he was added first.

Not denying that he's huge, but if we're arguing that he was added because he's, "iconic and the best possible choice for a third-party villain", I think there are others who would be recognized by even more people. I know that's only an opinion, but it's something that I feel like most people should be able to agree on regardless.

People have been thinking that about Sephiroth even before he was added into the smash roster.

Who would the other more iconic or recognisable characters be, in your opinion?

I know you mentioned Eggman earlier, but if I had a choice between the two, I'd still go Sephiroth, because he looks more cool to play as.

I mean, it's freaking Sephiroth, which is exactly why he was chosen I reckon.

 

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

Isn't Impa also in the game but younger? Since I remember her being in regular BOTW. Though I could be off. I don't remember.

I don't see why they'd go with her HW design, as it's a spin-off, but if she's plausible from BOTW2 proper, maybe.

Though honestly I could just as easily see them skip the game too. BOTW Ganondorf would be a really nice choice, though. Poor villain needs more love. Marketing-wise, there's no reason to choose Pig Ganon. Calamaity Ganon clearly doesn't work at all, though the Blights aren't nearly as bad(and would be cool mini-bosses/stage hazards, though?).

If they're trying to go outside the Triforce Trio, there's bound to be another NPC. We already have the Old Man redone alone(and it's not like spoiler characters matter in Smash. Otherwise Sheik wouldn't be there. And obviously Sheik was only there because of Zelda, and vice versa anyway). Another issue is that the Champions(bar Zelda) were all equal overall, so it was pretty difficult to randomly choose one at the time. Nowadays one might be massively more popular enough to stand-out for DLC, though. Like, they're all cool, no doubt. It didn't help that they weren't even treated like the Pokemon Starters either, who actually began to have "blatant stand-outs" due to being a multimedia franchise. Charizard blatantly stood out over the rest of the starters in general. Bulbsaur and Squirtle always stood out more than Charmander too. A lot of it is anime reasons, but even then, certain ones were significantly more popular. That and you only get 1 Starter by default, so it's easier to justify "one" for Smash. Greninja and Incineroar were also unique situations cause Sakurai found something that made them flow very well. It wasn't clearly the case for Villager at first, for instance, so it's been made clear "he can make a moveset work" is not a strong argument. He doesn't always get that luxury and doesn't have ideas immediately. That's ignoring Pokemon having a slot set aside, something no other series has, too.

I'd love another Zelda character, but it's not easy seeing who is the best to choose. There's tons of factors at this point to consider, and we don't know exactly what he's looking for. In addition, what is Nintendo looking for too? They could very easily suggest one of the Champions for DLC, or Impa, or Zelda, or Ganondorf, etc. They chose Sephiroth, they chose Min Min, Joker, and so on.

I gotta say The Old Man would be a wild pick.

 

[SpectreJordan]

More like because they blow their load after two mega-hype reveals every time with Ultimate.

I’m pretty sure you’re counting Hero/Banjo as one reveal together. But I still think that’s wrong. Nintendo always bring some big guns to E3 & they clearly planned this pass with two E3s in mind (Before the world went to crap & E3 got canned). I think it’s very likely that FP10 is another Mega-hype character.

9 & 11? Debatable. I can definitely see those being more down to earth picks like Min-Min. Maybe one could be a long time Smash fanbase request that wouldn’t light the casual world on fire like Isaac, Bandana Dee or something.

But at the same time, maybe Nintendo/Sakurai are going full mad man with this pass & the other three are on the same level as Steve/Seph. Who knows anymore, this game is nuts.

He would be a disappointment to anyone who's never owned or played an Xbox, which is most of Japan.

It seems like the Japanese are similar to us where they often talk about what’s popular on the other side of the pond. So I think they’d be understanding of Master Chief. I’d say Chief’s in a similar position to Hero/Dragon Quest.

Chief would definitely get hate from Nintendo loyalists who’d think he stole the spot of a requested Nintendo character or third party associated with Nintendo.

I don’t necessarily mean these HUGE characters. More so, I’m looking for these generational crossings that have come out of both Steve and Sephiroth. Two completely different types of gamers blown away by each reveal for one game is an incredibly rare thing that only Smash can do. And I love that.

People who grew up with ‘00s games:

Potentially we Could get a Character that Appeals to All Sides

-Old Generation
-New Generation
-Casual Smash Fans
-Hardcore Smash Fans
-Nintendo Audience
-Non-Nintendo Audience

Maybe not though

I don’t think anyone like that exists besides

Sephiroth is iconic, but I think a lot of people are starting to believe he's the most iconic third-party villain simply because he was added first.

Not denying that he's huge, but if we're arguing that he was added because he's, "iconic and the best possible choice for a third-party villain", I think there are others who would be recognized by even more people. I know that's only an opinion, but it's something that I feel like most people should be able to agree on regardless.

The only one who could maaaybe be bigger than Sephiroth is Eggman. Those two are very close. But I’d give the edge to Sephiroth since he’s more popular in his series’s fanbase. People like Eggman but he’s definitely below Shadow, Knuckles & Tails overall. This coming from someone who loves that Teddy Roosevelt looking goofball.

Bowser, Ganondorf, Sephiroth & Eggman are the Mount Rushmore of video game villains. No one comes close to those four.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They were a special situation sure, but it was because of Sheik, not Zelda. If Sheik didn't exist, Zelda still would have been added, perhaps even alongside a not clone Ganondorf, since Sheik's slot would have been open for that.

Yeah, don't see it. Ganondorf was clone or nothing in that situation. Zelda literally had no core moveset to work with, and had to borrow straight from Link's repertoire(which to note she has done in every playable appearance in general. She never fought in any form using truly unique stuff till after Smash). Zelda and Sheik frankly got in because of their gimmick. We'll have to agree to disagree here too, but I never saw it as more than "all or nothing" either. Zelda's a special situation and was made directly to compliment Sheik. Sheik was also specifically introduced first, which implies she was a core part too.

Ganon isn't in Super Smash Bros. because Ganondorf is, and they're technically the same character, so he's not entirely necessary. If neither were squeezed into Super Smash Bros. Melee, there's no way they wouldn't have been one of the first characters on the table for Super Smash Bros. Brawl. It really is that simple for them.

Doesn't really change that Ganon(the pig) is not playable in Smash. I wouldn't dare to call him properly represented when only his later form is there. Regardless of which one, or how perfect the moveset is.

No they didn't. Toon Link has Young Link's shtick on a conceptual level, but Toon Link would not have been able to have been made using Young Link's assets because they don't have the same proportions. It's like how Isabelle was built from the ground up even though her moveset takes heavy cues from Villager's.

The data says otherwise. It's not about proportions, it's about skeletons. Young Link's data was found among Toon Link's data. Isabelle is a different situation either way, but actually very comparable, if not the same situation for a semi-clone. Villager just wasn't canned(the right move).

Ganondorf and Ganon are, as you've said, different versions of the same character. So long as one of them is in, they both get representation. That's why it makes sense that Ganon isn't in the game, and why the two existing as iconic matters. To say that they wouldn't get in on their own merits is like saying Peach wouldn't get in on her merits. Or Samus. Or Mewtwo. Or Charizard. It just doesn't make sense.

Because we have zero evidence their popularity alone would've been enough. Ganondorf didn't get in on his own merits. He got in because he was an easy clone, being hard called a "lucky addition". The reality is, his own merits weren't enough. Others were, but he was not a case of that. Nor was Toon Link or Young Link. Zelda/Sheik are the only other ones beyond Link who could really apply for that, and their "transformation mechanic" is their own merits.

They don't both get representation. Ganondorf is represented, and the 3D odd versions of Ganon are weakly represented as decent Final Smashes. OOT Ganon is represented decently as a boss, but that's it. The most iconic Pig Ganon has zero representation, not even a spirit. So no, Pig Ganon is barely there, and it's sad too. He's the actual original villain. Keep in mind that the actual reason Ganondorf got in was cause he had a demo model to use. Being popular/iconic/etc. did not actually get him in. That's still reality.

Also, if we were to go by your logic, Ganondorf still wouldn't have been added because Nintendo doesn't own Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf, and thus wouldn't use him.

No, going by my logic he had no clearly flowing moveset outside of the clone stuff till HW(for the OOT/TP style designs), which actually gives Sakurai something to look at in order to make a flowing moveset. The thing about Ganondorf is he flows only because he's a clone. That's why Toon Ganondorf is the only other one to stick out with having a proper combat sequence, which would've made him feasible during Brawl, if any. He's the only one that would've stood a chance to get into Brawl, and that assumes that Sakurai had any time to make him unique. Which considering we knew the game was delayed for Sonic, and couldn't even fit in other planned clones and unique characters? That's a no. So it was pretty much at best a semi-clone option at that point. TP Ganondorf maybe would've gotten in, using Falcon as a base(as they are still pretty much similar bodyshapes). But that's as far as he really stood a chance. That also doesn't make much sense since it's only OOT Ganondorf that shared clear abilities that were easy to interpret that worked well with Falcon's moveset. So in the end, unique was severely unlikely due to no real time, and a clone was not in the table outside of reusing OOT Ganondorf like they did in Melee(not exactly the most logical, since there was no OOT remake/re-release of note at the time). He was not in a good position whatsoever during Brawl.

However, I'm not going to reply after this since I've said my piece. I'm not convinced anyone beyond Link got in strictly on their own. Everybody else was a clear special situation for the Zelda franchise. This is already evident by the severe lack of newcomers. Having their own merits hasn't really shown to matter much at all(Zelda/Sheik's transformation is the closest outside of Link being the playable character, and it's debatable if that's a straight merit or a special situation. I'm not going to continue that debate, keep in mind, but you get what I mean since I explained it well enough).

One site note is "by that logic" is very close to trying to put words into my mouth. Please don't use that kind of argument. Just stick with what I actually said. I also feel this clearly has gone on too long and nobody agrees. I won't change my opinion, which makes debating further clearly fruitless on everybody's end.

 

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

I'm throwing my two cents in, this may never happen but what is a wildly popular game that is thriving and doing great, and is growing at a rapid pace, and is popular among streamers, and has a ton of potential for characters, even though it will never ever be on a Nintendo System. I'm just saying this game is big enough.

If this actually came to pass tho, I would lose my mind, that would be crazy. Still, they'd make fun Mii Costumes.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Impa's a 120+ year old woman in BotW. BotW2 is a sequel, so she should still be old there. Her Age of Calamity design is basically her granddaughter with shiekah monk accessories and different hair.

...I thought BOTW2 took place before BOTW1 story-wise??

I gotta say The Old Man would be a wild pick.

Zelda has yet to get an actual joke pick, so. Tingle wouldn't even count, as he's the star of his own games and one of the more notable secondary characters. Though to be fair, he can be a joke character, but we've had like two in Smash history(Jigglypuff and Pichu).

 

[Shroob]

...I thought BOTW2 took place before BOTW1 story-wise??


Zelda has yet to get an actual joke pick, so. Tingle wouldn't even count, as he's the star of his own games and one of the more notable secondary characters. Though to be fair, he can be a joke character, but we've had like two in Smash history(Jigglypuff and Pichu).

BotW2 is a direct sequel to BotW

You're thinking of BotW: Age of Calamity, the Hyrule-Warriors like game that just came out.

 

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

I don’t think anyone like that exists besides.

Yeah someone does. His name was Minecraft Steve. I've seen so many people regardless of age and background play and love Minecraft. So yeah, there's 6 and all of them are here.

 

[Kokiden]

Spoiler: DMC5 Spoilers

To be Fair, that was only One Half of Vergil that caused all that Destruction.

Also Vergil was Dying when he Split himself in Two. He was just trying to Survive. However He did benefit from all the Strength that Urizen got, along with coming to terms for his Humanity. He also manipulated the Situation and did not immedaitly cut Down the Qliphoth Tree because he needed Dante to see him as a Villain still and fight him like it was to the Death.

Now All the Deaths in DMC3 are definitely attributed to him

Oh for sure.

The man has a thing for giant structures that lay waste to cities. I guess it's his schtick lol.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

BotW2 is a direct sequel to BotW

You're thinking of BotW: Age of Calamity, the Hyrule-Warriors like game that just came out.

I was never thinking of Age of Calamity at any point. That's what I remember strictly about BOTW2. Guess I remembered wrong, then.

 

[Shroob]

I was never thinking of Age of Calamity at any point. That's what I remember strictly about BOTW2. Guess I remembered wrong, then.

Well, we have seen like, 30 seconds of BotW2 footage, and all we've really seen is short haired Zelda and Ganondorf as a dried husk, oh, and Link, but that's it lol.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I just realized something about Sephiroth's trailer. At no point do they include DHD as a joke about Donald and Goofy. Wonder how KH fans feel about that