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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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pupNapoleon

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I don't want to ruin your post but... you know there were people who wanted Byleth, right? I mean... he/she had a support thread (Edelgard and Dimitri as well afaik) here.
It's litotes (understatement) used as a literary statement of reverse exaggeration to prove a point.
Meaning- sure, a few people wanted Byleth...but literally millions are likely to want Steve (or at least, millions will definitely respond positively, given the game has 20x the sales of Smash, and other supporters who never bought Minecraft, like me).
 

SNEKeater

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people dunking on sora is whats making me really depressed now
I mean I want Dante and I don't think the post is making fun of him (or Sora and Chief for that matter). It's just a funny meme about the whole situation, featuring some of the most popular names mentioned in the community for months.
 

7NATOR

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You know people say Steve is the biggest announcement since Cloud, you're wrong...

It's the biggest announcement since Pac-Man (And tbh it feels like a base game roster pick in the same style as Pac-Man). Like I think that's the best comparison in terms of how iconic we're looking at here, and because of that I think this is a good pick even if I've never played Minecraft and it does nothing for me.
I think the reason more thoughts go to Cloud was because due to Namco working on Smahs 4, alot of people were expecting to See Pac-Man. Cloud on the other hand was still seen as a long-shot before he got in, same deal with Steve (even if people were more apt to him, I still think people thought he wouldn't be in FP2

Though in Iconic status, Steve is closer to Pac-Man than Cloud
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Some thoughts from me about today's news, and what we may see on Saturday.

1) I am somebody who didn't think they'd add Steve. When I first saw how he looked, I cringed. He was jarring to look at in terms of movement, and the Enderman looked especially creepy with the tiny legs. However, Minecraft is a huge series and fits right in with series like Zelda, Mario, Sonic, and Final Fantasy. I will be joining a Minecraft server with friends to try it out...I've never played it before.

2) With Minecraft now included, this ends the "can they go bigger?" argument. In Brawl, it was Sonic. For Wii U, it was Cloud. For Ultimate, it was the return of Snake and now, Steven Minecraft. This is truly the biggest addition in terms of how much money/cultural impact a series has had, and that's nothing to scoff at. In terms of Smash there's simply no way to be literally "bigger" than Steve.

In terms of fan reaction overall, I think there are still some picks that would especially make folks pop off. Crash Bandicoot is one of them, bringing back the epic rivalry of Mario v Crash v Sonic, console mascots of the 90's. We have Cloud and Link matched up, another epic gaming crossover. Depending on how Nintendo/Sakurai views it, we could also have Dante crossing over to fight Bayonetta, which is something that Kamiya himself has said he wanted to happen, so there's always that too. I'm not saying this because Dante is my most wanted right now, I'm saying it because, frankly, I think the Smash fanbase underestimates just how popular and well known Dante is.

3) Sakurai mentioned today that he was essentially told he was going to add Steve. This tells us that not all characters are an open ended affair; some he is basically told to add, others he may get some flexibility. This seemingly fits...Joker/Persona 5 bring in one of his favorite art styles/UI, Terry Bogard/Fatal Fury bring in a console/series that means a lot to him. Byleth, on the other hand, seems more like a "you're adding from this" sort of pick.

Basically, not to say that we can all argue "You're adding this" for any and all characters. That, I doubt. However, it should at least change how we think about things- 3rd parties can be corporate picks too.

4) The narrative of "1st picks carries the pass" or "tells us the rest of the pass" is dead and gone. There is no "focus" on 1st or 3rd parties. But I will tell you what the storyline is. I've said this before and I'll say it again- new and unique gameplay, as well as, evidently, series/games that bring something inherently new to Smash as a game.

With Minecraft, we've now gotten a specific new game, with a new location for a stage, and a new selection of music, every time. Even if we look at Byleth, it's still from a new game that can provide a thematic character, stage, and set of music. For reference, in terms of this DLC, this is Seven in a row that this has held true. Some characters fit this, some don't.
-
Some may agree with me, some may not. I think we've got great things in store for this pass, and I'm especially interested to see what happens on Saturday. I expect a returning Mii Costume (at least 1, anyway. I don't know who it will be), and a premium costume. But I don't know who the premium will be. Master Chief would honestly be the most insane costume ever, but I don't know that I see it happening.

Either way, while I wasn't real big on Steve, I think it's fitting to be in Smash now and I can't really argue it was a "bad" decision. I just hope I can get used to the visuals.
 
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PLANTMAN

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I find it strange Steve would have been worked for so long because that would imply they got confirmation for a second pass pretty early in the first's development.

Or Steve got pushed back and he was meant for the first.
Prob the later since we have :ultminmin
If it was the former
We prob wouldn’t have her or maybe an arms rep at all
 

7NATOR

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Xbox France still says Master Chief is still waiting for his invitation. As if he couldn't be Soft Deconfirmed even harder, he might not even get a Mii Costume considering That I would expect Xbox/Microsoft to know if there is something halo related coming to Smash (Like Costume, Spirits, etc). at the least, It might be tounge in cheek, but it might also be confirm of no Halo content at all

Though there could be more to this, I don't know
 

SNEKeater

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It's litotes (understatement) used as a literary statement of reverse exaggeration to prove a point.
Meaning- sure, a few people wanted Byleth...but literally millions are likely to want Steve (or at least, millions will definitely respond positively, given the game has 20x the sales of Smash, and other supporters who never bought Minecraft, like me).
I mean, if we follow that example, Steve is pretty much guaranteed to be the most wanted character for Smash by a significant margin, because Minecraft is incredibly huge and a lot way more people has played Minecraft than series such as Halo, Kingdom Hearts or whatever.
I think that we can agree that isn't the case. While Steve was for sure a popular request and had significant following, he wasn't the most wanted character for Smash.

Also. Saying "a few" wanted Byleth is just wrong. Yeah I know a lot of Smash fans didn't wanted a FE character, but the way you're phrasing the sentence looks like literally 10 folks or so wanted Byleth, and that's clearly not the case.
 

7NATOR

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I'm not a fan of the whole "Oh, Steve was only half our E3 presentation!" theory I've seen since that feels like moving a goalpost hard.


These Mii costumes are going to be very interesting.
Half, as in He was 1 of 2 Smash reveals, with FP8 being the other half? you mean Min-Min and Steve beng the E3 reveals (which I could buy)? what do you mean?
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Basically, not to say that we can all argue "You're adding this" for any and all characters. That, I doubt. However, it should at least change how we think about things- 3rd parties can be corporate picks too.
From what Sakurai says, they're all corporate picks. My guess is that he sometimes get a category rather than a specific character. For Example, Hero was a request for a Dragon Quest character, and Byleth was a request for a game that's going to be in people's faces really soon.
 
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I.D.

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I'm not a fan of the whole "Oh, Steve was only half our E3 presentation!" theory I've seen since that feels like moving a goalpost hard.


These Mii costumes are going to be very interesting.
Just say it. You have a problem with people trying to square Steve as the Hero (big deal) of this pass, meaning the next character should be the Banjo (fan favorite).
Am I right?
 

Shroob

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Half, as in He was 1 of 2 Smash reveals, with FP8 being the other half? you mean Min-Min and Steve beng the E3 reveals (which I could buy)? what do you mean?
Been seeing a lot of people in the thread that shall not be named saying that we were originally going to get CP8 shown off at E3 alongside Steve, with CP8 being the 'big' reveal.... like... Steve isn't a BIG reveal?
 

Professor Pumpkaboo

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I mean I want Dante and I don't think the post is making fun of him (or Sora and Chief for that matter). It's just a funny meme about the whole situation, featuring some of the most popular names mentioned in the community for months.
oh, not that on, I laughed at that one. Im talking about one I saw thaty said Steve was dancing on sora fans graves
 

Momotsuki

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People talking about Steve looking "jarring" and such. I don't know how that makes any sense. Smash has never had much in the way of internal consistency. It's a massive crossover party/fighting/watchamacallit game. Steve isn't the first fighter to be designed in such a faithfully stylized manner either. Take Mr. Game & Watch for example.
 

Shroob

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Just say it. You have a problem with people trying to square Steve as the Hero (big deal) of this pass, meaning the next character should be the Banjo (fan favorite).
Am I right?
It's more

"Oh, no Geno today? Well, he's coming next then! E3 always gives us 2 characters and MinMin obviously wouldn't be the other!"
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Been seeing a lot of people in the thread that shall not be named saying that we were originally going to get CP8 shown off at E3 alongside Steve, with CP8 being the 'big' reveal.... like... Steve isn't a BIG reveal?
I'd say it's more likely that Min Min and Steve were going to be revealed together if they were going to have a double reveal at all.
 

Trevenant

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Xbox France still says Master Chief is still waiting for his invitation. As if he couldn't be Soft Deconfirmed even harder, he might not even get a Mii Costume considering That I would expect Xbox/Microsoft to know if there is something halo related coming to Smash (Like Costume, Spirits, etc). at the least, It might be tounge in cheek, but it might also be confirm of no Halo content at all

Though there could be more to this, I don't know
I guess maybe there is a chance that it was more self contained since Chief would be one of the biggest deals in Ultimate thus far in terms of the general enormity so maybe they kept it secret meaning that the France division at least wouldn't know? I dunno Chief isn't gonna be playable for the pass, that much is pretty apparent so I think a Mii outfit is probably the next best thing. Idk part of this may be me wanting to see Halo represented considering it's just something they should and could do but idk.
 

Schnee117

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Been seeing a lot of people in the thread that shall not be named saying that we were originally going to get CP8 shown off at E3 alongside Steve, with CP8 being the 'big' reveal.... like... Steve isn't a BIG reveal?
Steve is literally the biggest reveal they could get outside of going for a fourth party like Spider-Man.
People really be on some clown **** today
 
D

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Jesus there's a lot to get into since this thread jumped another 20 pages and more, and I have a whole lot of pizza slices to buy at 7/11.


I can finally think of certain topics for discussions, but for now, all I'll say currently is how the first thing I thought when Steve was revealed was how rough it must've been for Genomaniacs out there when Mario got sent off stage and into someplace that isn't from SMRPG.
 

zeldasmash

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Xbox France still says Master Chief is still waiting for his invitation. As if he couldn't be Soft Deconfirmed even harder, he might not even get a Mii Costume considering That I would expect Xbox/Microsoft to know if there is something halo related coming to Smash (Like Costume, Spirits, etc). at the least, It might be tounge in cheek, but it might also be confirm of no Halo content at all

Though there could be more to this, I don't know
....As if Chief’s chances couldn’t be crushed further...
 

---

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Finally on lunch at work, not sure what has/hasn't been already said.

1. Banjo/Steve wars might be the biggest piece of irony thus far this time around, at least a moderator. lol

2. Hard to say if Verg was ultimately right about Minecraft content given how long ago they made the claims. Will acknowledge but not credit.

3. Considering the blowback against Terry from younger gamers exactly a year ago, it's a little ironic to see older gamers be complaining now. FE fan schadenfreude from Byleth seems to be eternal though.

4. Steve is probably the biggest 3rd Party Smash has gotten to be frank. Can't think of anything else that compares; granted it's a singular game vs. franchises. Kind of hard to believe a decade has already passed since the Alpha/Beta builds I'd played with friends in High School servers.

5. I'm sure Sakurai will go into greater detail, but looking at Steve at face value it doesn't surprise me that it took this long to announce them, COVID 19 aside.

6. I might be more excited for the stage than the character to be honest. Definitely won't be legal, but it looks cool. I really hope Creepers are stage hazards. The character looks hilarious though. Like Piranha Plant, I'm laughing too hard to be upset at anything.

7. I have no idea what they could do with the Mii costumes to relate to Minecraft aside from hats.
 

Phoenixio

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A key difference between Steve and Byleth is that at least some people wanted Steve.
To add a little to what others have said: there were tons of people expecting Byleth as well, especially with how well Fire Emblem Three Houses did.

Byleth isn't terrible, just kinda mid, in my opinion. Felt like a bit of a bummer and it doesn't help that now I tend to regularly forget that they are in the game at all.
The salt on Fire Emblem doesn't change the fact that Byleth is a unique fighter, not a clone of Marth. So to me, even if people are getting sick of the franchise, I don't undertand the hate Byleth and Corrin get, with how unique they are as fighters. You should definitely give them a try, they're quite fun to play overall, and that Up-B really allows nice shenanigans, much more so than Joker's.
 

7NATOR

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Been seeing a lot of people in the thread that shall not be named saying that we were originally going to get CP8 shown off at E3 alongside Steve, with CP8 being the 'big' reveal.... like... Steve isn't a BIG reveal?
That. Yeah I can't buy that. I guess the only way you could rationlize that is if you believe Min-Min was supposed to release in April (apprantly something with Amiibo might have pointed towards it, but those were just Amiibo Re-releases), but Honestly, It makes sense if it was Min-Min and Steve as the 2 E3 Characters

Min-Min and ARMS get some Spotlight, and Steve is the character that everyone loves (well not some of the hardcore part of the fanbase, or people not into Minecraft like that).

Min-Min releases after the Presentation and Steve releases in Fall like with Banjo.

So i was kinda confused when i saw that talking point in the thread.
 

I.D.

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It's more

"Oh, no Geno today? Well, he's coming next then! E3 always gives us 2 characters and MinMin obviously wouldn't be the other!"
Haha, I imagined it was something like that.
Honestly I feel it's pretty clear Min Min was originally the opener of E3 and Steve the ender. Everything else just sounds like mental gymnastics at this point.
 

N3ON

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2) With Minecraft now included, this ends the "can they go bigger?" argument. In Brawl, it was Sonic. For Wii U, it was Cloud. For Ultimate, it was the return of Snake and now, Steven Minecraft. This is truly the biggest addition in terms of how much money/cultural impact a series has had, and that's nothing to scoff at. In terms of Smash there's simply no way to be literally "bigger" than Steve.

In terms of fan reaction overall, I think there are still some picks that would especially make folks pop off. Crash Bandicoot is one of them, bringing back the epic rivalry of Mario v Crash v Sonic, console mascots of the 90's. We have Cloud and Link matched up, another epic gaming crossover. Depending on how Nintendo/Sakurai views it, we could also have Dante crossing over to fight Bayonetta, which is something that Kamiya himself has said he wanted to happen, so there's always that too.
I think Steve is very big, but I also think Master Chief would be just as big, but for slightly different reasons.

Like in your Smash 4 example. Between characters, who is bigger? Pac-Man or Cloud? I'd say Pac-Man is the bigger character, he's certainly more well-known. And Pac-Man is more successful than just Cloud's portion of Final Fantasy. But, I'd agree that Cloud was the bigger inclusion, because of what it meant. Because of Cloud's history, his seemingly near-impossibility before, and FF7's legacy with Nintendo and Sony.

I'd say of the two, one's a bigger character, but the other is a bigger megaton. And I would draw similar comparisons between Steve and Master Chief. Minecraft is bigger than Halo. And Steve is, no doubt, a big character. But I think that Master Chief would be a bigger megaton for Smash, given, like Cloud and like Sonic, all the other historical factors involved. Master Chief is the mascot of a direct competitor and synonymous with Xbox in a way Steve isn't. Steve was seen as unlikely by many, especially in the outset of his popularity, but not to the extent Master Chief was, where he was an impossible suggestion and a "crackhead" choice for ages. Much like Cloud. Of course, this does exclude Japan.

I think Steve means a lot, but I think he lacks meaning in ways that Sonic and Cloud had, which Master Chief also has. And Crash does to, to an extent, but it's been a very long time since he was really a purely Playstation thing, and his pedigree has faltered over the years, so I'd put him lower than the others in that regard. I do think the legacy of competition and "impossibility" adds to the eventual scale of the reaction. I believe Steve is closer to Pac-Man, all things considered. And maybe that's downplaying the casual sphere... but I would say the same in putting Cloud above Pac-Man.

Sonic, uniquely, I think takes from both camps. And I mean, he always will be the most requested character for a reason.

But if nothing else, I think Master Chief's inclusion would also break twitter.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Why are people suddenly thinking Sora lost his shot? I dont understand. Why is Sora at all relevant?
Folks with Disney connections from Resetera are saying that Nintendo approached Disney for Sora, but the price to acquire the licensing dwarfed the costs to even get Cloud.
 

pupNapoleon

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I mean, if we follow that example, Steve is pretty much guaranteed to be the most wanted character for Smash by a significant margin, because Minecraft is incredibly huge and a lot way more people has played Minecraft than series such as Halo, Kingdom Hearts or whatever.
I think that we can agree that isn't the case. While Steve was for sure a popular request and had significant following, he wasn't the most wanted character for Smash.

Also. Saying "a few" wanted Byleth is just wrong. Yeah I know a lot of Smash fans didn't wanted a FE character, but the way you're phrasing the sentence looks like literally 10 folks or so wanted Byleth, and that's clearly not the case.
I really feel like youre actively working to make it seem like Byleth was a good choice. I understand I'm bias, because I care about Smash as a whole (meaning, Steve is objectively a good pick, being from the top selling game of all time), but I cannot think of a worse character for the fifth character pass than Byleth. Literally. A Fire Emblem character was the worst case scenario to end the hype upon, or even include at all. Even those hoping for him understood this. While it exists for Steve, it's just... not comparable.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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I think Steve is very big, but I also think Master Chief would be just as big, but for slightly different reasons.

Like in your Smash 4 example. Between characters, who is bigger? Pac-Man or Cloud? I'd say Pac-Man is the bigger character, he's certainly more well-known. And Pac-Man is more successful than just Cloud's portion of Final Fantasy. But, I'd agree that Cloud was the bigger inclusion, because of what it meant. Because of Cloud's history, his seemingly near-impossibility before, and FF7's legacy with Nintendo and Sony.

I'd say of the two, one's a bigger character, but the other is a bigger megaton. And I would draw similar comparisons between Steve and Master Chief. Minecraft is bigger than Halo. And Steve is, no doubt, a big character. But I think that Master Chief would be a bigger megaton for Smash, given, like Cloud and like Sonic, all the other historical factors involved. Master Chief is the mascot of a direct competitor and synonymous with Xbox in a way Steve isn't. Steve was seen as unlikely by many, especially in the outset of his popularity, but not to the extent Master Chief was, where he was an impossible suggestion and a "crackhead" choice for ages. Much like Cloud. Of course, this does exclude Japan.

I think Steve means a lot, but I think he lacks meaning in ways that Sonic and Cloud had, which Master Chief also has. And Crash does to, to an extent, but it's been a very long time since he was really a purely Playstation thing, and his pedigree has faltered over the years, so I'd put him lower than the others in that regard. I do think the legacy of competition and "impossibility" adds to the eventual scale of the reaction. I believe Steve is closer to Pac-Man, all things considered. And maybe that's downplaying the casual sphere... but I would say the same in putting Cloud above Pac-Man.

Sonic, uniquely, I think takes from both camps. And I mean, he always will be the most requested character for a reason.

But if nothing else, I think Master Chief's inclusion would also break twitter.
I completely agree with you. I just find that Chief may not be looking so hot as a potential 3rd Microsoft pick in the same pass as another Microsoft pick. I'd absolutely LOVE him though.
 

pupNapoleon

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From what Sakurai says, they're all corporate picks. My guess is that he sometimes get a category rather than a specific character. For Example, Hero was a request for a Dragon Quest character, and Byleth was a request for a game that's going to be in people's faces really soon.
No... FE:3H was already out for more than half a year by the time they made it in. (July 2019 in the US)
If they were going for a popular character that was released around that time, there is no question a Pokemon Sw/Sh was the better option (Nov 2019 in the US)... because it was closer to the character release, and is the highest selling media franchise of any kind, of all time.
 

N3ON

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I completely agree with you. I just find that Chief may not be looking so hot as a potential 3rd Microsoft pick in the same pass as another Microsoft pick. I'd absolutely LOVE him though.
Fair enough, I agree with that. So I guess, in the answer to "can they go bigger?" I believe they can. But in the answer to "will they go bigger?"... that, perhaps not.
 

MooMew64

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My thoughts on Steve's aesthetics is that, truth be told, I love the way he and the Minecraft gang looks, lol. I personally don't think there would have been any better way to actually rep Minecraft in Smash without staying completely faithful. As someone who's dabbled with Minecraft content creation, the way the game renders its models are done in such a specific way that they've become quite iconic to me. The choppy movements and pixelated designs are a key part of Minecraft's identity, cleaning it up to be more polished or modern looking would actually look worse to me personally because that's just not how Minecraft looks.

Basically, it's a to each their own thing. Steve and co.'s simplistic animations and pixelated designs are paying homage to the game they come from in an extremely faithful way because taking that element away from them would be taking a key part of what makes Minecraft's aesthetics unique away from it, and I personally wouldn't be a fan. Other franchises who have been upgraded to be more modern fit IMHO because the old animations weren't a key part of their aesthetics and identity. For Minecraft, the simple, low detail animations are part of the charm and are what make Minecraft, well, Minecraft.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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The salt on Fire Emblem doesn't change the fact that Byleth is a unique fighter, not a clone of Marth. So to me, even if people are getting sick of the franchise, I don't undertand the hate Byleth and Corrin get, with how unique they are as fighters. You should definitely give them a try, they're quite fun to play overall, and that Up-B really allows nice shenanigans, much more so than Joker's.
The criticisms I see are:
  1. They still look samey amongst the other Fire Emblem characters.
  2. They aren't exactly pioneering a new way to play the archetype. They're still fairly basic sword characters.
  3. They're still more Fire Emblem characters they don't care about.
  4. Corrin is about as interesting as cardboard.
  5. "But I wanted Edelgard."
 

7NATOR

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So actually, how are you guys feeling about Another Pokemon now? Also about another Mario Character?
 
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