Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[NonSpecificGuy]

LOOK IM SORRY OK I just didn’t spell it good enough

I was joking with you, my friend. No harm.

 

[Garteam]

I think Itsuno's "Dante should be on a Nintendo console before he's eligible for Smash" comment is more of a necessary condition than a sufficient condition. It doesn't automatically get him a spot, but it does put him in the running. It's kinda like saying "Little Timmy passed his grade 10 science class, so he's going to be a doctor". Yes, doctors do need to pass grade 10 science, but just accomplishing that does not guarantee a successful career in medicine.

I think Dante's biggest issue is just that he doesn't have much to set him apart from his contemporaries. Devil May Cry sits a solid 20 million units in terms of lifetime sales, but Dante is still pretty far from being a massive icon like Sonic, Snake, or Cloud. Similarly, DMC has a decent relationship with Nintendo that's improving everyday, but he's not going to be added because of his Nintendo connection like Mega Man, Simon, or Bayonetta. While rumours of him being FP5 greatly increased his popularity for Smash, that was after the final characters were selected. Before that, Dante was decently requested for Smash, but not enough to get him in as a favourite of the core fanbase like Ridley, K. Rool, or Banjo. Dante can't even say he's the definitive option for his company, because he has to compete with Monster Hunter, Phoenix Wright, and Amaterasu.

The only thing that Dante really has in a noteworthy degree is moveset potential, which is great, but not an end-all be-all. He's got a shot to be in Smash, but he too few major strengths to be considered the leading candidate that many currently see him as, IMO.

 

[N3ON]

Ehhhh. For a good while Hero in Smash and Dragon Quest XI S were always paired together in every event they appeared in. Nintendo and Square really, really liked to remind us that this cross promotion was happening. Hero coming exclusively with mii costumes from his own series only is also a privilege only granted to him so far.

I think they capitalized on the game releasing, even to the extent of how the character was implemented, but I think Hero still would've been included had there been no DQ game on the horizon, just because if you consider every DQ protagonist as "Hero", as Smash did, it's clearly a character that could go toe-to-toe with any other illustrious candidate. And that's in line with the third-parties they normally pick. If not above several.

So, even if it was promotional, that's the kind of promotional character I can get behind. The kind that warrants inclusion regardless of circumstance and precedent.

 

[Spongeboob]

He would've made a goude Echo for Min Min, at the very least.

I disagree. Hypothetically speaking, I think he would've made a better Echo for Springman, seeing they're both the same size and that both Springman and Ninjara have the same types of weapons.

 

[Cosmic77]

If Bowser Jr. and Olimar aren't given the debut date of their alts, neither should Hero.

If Luminary is the base character, then they should go by the date he debuted, not the other three.

 

[SpectreJordan]

I'm not too sure on the whole "lower your expectations" thing either since Imran himself predicted we'd either see Sora or Master Chief within this pass, who aren't exactly "low expectations" characters. Quite the opposite.

Perhaps he meant overall, with just one or two exceptions. Or perhaps it was all a red herring so he could simply tease Min Min.

I think he could‘ve been talking about the people who were expecting an entirely third party pass. If he’s right then I think that could mean a 50:50 split with one of the third parties being in Chief/Sora’s scale (if not one of those two actually being in).

So maybe something like:

Mipha
Rex & Pyra
Master Chief or Sora
Dante or Monster Hunter
Yuri

I don’t have much to say, but I’ll say this much.

The fact that I’m somewhat of a Dante stan aside- using Monster Hunter sales as a reason for why it would get in over Devil May Cry is interesting considering Resident Evil (known as Biohazard in Japan) got spirited.

Would still just point out that when Itsuno was interviewed about Dante, there was a specific conversation about Dante in Smash, to which he said, “He should probably be on a Nintendo platform first before he’s in Smash”, which was then followed by DMC1-3 on Switch, with a special exclusive version of DMC3 with big fan requested changes.

Doesn’t mean he’s in by any means, but it absolutely does not hurt him.

There’s also the fact that Mega Man got in before Ryu or any other Capcom series. Mega Man is iconic but his games have never sold really well. I think Mega Man 2, Mega Man 11 & Mega Man X are the only games in the series to sell over a million copies.

When it comes to Dante vs Monster Hunter, I think they both have their pros & cons. The biggest pro for both is that they’re both series that Capcom is trying to push.

Monster Hunter: World exploded the series into the western gaming scene & it’s now the biggest Capcom game ever; they’re definitely looking for ways to further make the brand bigger.

Similarly, Devil May Cry V has become the biggest game in that series. After its success, Capcom actually said they’re looking to push the series as much as Monster Hunter, Street Fighter & Resident Evil.

I think Monster Hunter’s strong history with Nintendo & it being so big in Japan definitely gives it an advantage. But like I’ve said before, I think the MonHun content in the game already might be it for that series. I imagine Capcom & Nintendo had discussions about adding a playable character but decided against it for some reason.

I just want a pass that feels like Nintendo picked these characters for a reason not some flavor of the week characters I keep seeing everywhere on twitter

None of those characters are really flavors of the week.

Geno’s been actively requested since the Brawl days. Crash is one of the most iconic video game characters of all-time. Master Chief is also one of the most iconic video game characters of all-time & comes from the highest selling non-Nintendo exclusive series. Dante’s not as iconic as Crash or Chief but he’s still a beloved character that’s been going strong for almost 20 years now.

The latter three are characters that have become much more popular amongst Smash speculation in the past year, but that’s because they were seen as “impossible” before the likes of got in & expanded what we could see as possible. Master Chief, Crash & Dante are beloved characters from important series; they’ll be brought up in the speculation scene until they either get in or Sakurai says they’ll never happen.

 

[Perkilator]

I disagree. Hypothetically speaking, I think he would've made a better Echo for Springman, seeing they're both the same size and that both Springman and Ninjara have the same types of weapons.

Oooor, if Spring Man was an early purchase bonus, and Min Min came later; if Ninjara was the latter's Echo, I was thinking he could borrow moves from both her and Spring Man.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Guys

let’s maybe give him a break. It DOES kinda feel like ganging up. There’s disagreeing in a civil manner, and this... doesn’t really feel civil anymore

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Predictions for the pass are fool's errand at this point, but I just can't honestly see the rest of the fighters as being too dominated by either Western or Japanese sensibilities. I'm inclined to pause at Doom or Halo getting a fighter as much as I am Touhou or Sakura Wars because they feel so geographically lopsided for one particular group of players.

There's definitely a particular set of characters that will always get speculation (Sora, Dante, Steve, Monster Hunter, Crash, Pokemon rep, etc) and I think one of the reasons for that is that they're recognized as popular and well known globally. And given Smash often goes for broad appeal, it feels to some degree that the DLC will follow the same way.

Again predictions almost feel silly, but that's just the sense I have at this point.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think Itsuno's "Dante should be on a Nintendo console before he's eligible for Smash" comment is more of a necessary condition than a sufficient condition. It doesn't automatically get him a spot, but it does put him in the running. It's kinda like saying "Little Timmy passed his grade 10 science class, so he's going to be a doctor". Yes, doctors do need to pass grade 10 science, but just accomplishing that does not guarantee a successful career in medicine.

I think Dante's biggest issue is just that he doesn't have much to set him apart from his contemporaries. Devil May Cry sits a solid 20 million units in terms of lifetime sales, but Dante is still pretty far from being a massive icon like Sonic, Snake, or Cloud. Similarly, DMC has a decent relationship with Nintendo that's improving everyday, but he's not going to be added because of his Nintendo connection like Mega Man, Simon, or Bayonetta. While rumours of him being FP5 greatly increased his popularity for Smash, that was after the final characters were selected. Before that, Dante was decently requested for Smash, but not enough to get him in as a favourite of the core fanbase like Ridley, K. Rool, or Banjo. Dante can't even say he's the definitive option for his company, because he has to compete with Monster Hunter, Phoenix Wright, and Amaterasu.

The only thing that Dante really has in a noteworthy degree is moveset potential, which is great, but not an end-all be-all. He's got a shot to be in Smash, but he too few major strengths to be considered the leading candidate that many currently see him as, IMO.

Considering we’ve gotten Joker and Terry, two outliers who don’t fit those , I don’t really agree with the assessment here.

I wouldn’t wager on any particular character getting in right now, but I feel as though you’re underselling him in terms of popularity. He hasn’t really taken off until recently among Smash fans, but he’s been in the mix for a decent amount of time, one could say, prior to the buildup for Volume 1 and Byleth.

Basically, you could compare any currently speculated character to Sonic and that would count against them. We could argue “Nintendo connection” but that’s not even a major point for addition when we get picks like Joker with essentially no reference to Shin Megami Tensei. We have picks that are “lesser known” than others like Terry Bogard.

As for being the “definitive option” how is that even a point against him? Isn’t that also a point against Monster Hunter? Phoenix Wright? It would be a point toward nearly every highly speculated character right now except for basically Crash Bandicoot.

I’m not really sure why any of that is a negative toward Dante specifically when I would say many more folks know who Dante is, Devil May Cry has actually now appeared on a Nintendo console unlike Persona 5, and really comparing anybody to Sonic-tier characters at this point is kinda unfair given the fact that it’s Sonic the Hedgehog.

Basically, a lot of this applies to many a character, not just the wacky wahoo pizza eating demon slayer, and therefore isn’t really something that I would say impacts Dante specifically.

---

Also, I believe I saw someone mention Devil May Cry as the “PlayStation” Capcom IP where Nintendo gets the “scraps” and Monster Hunter is the title where it’s catered to Nintendo.

I just have to point out, like, y’all are aware we got Cloud (the “PlayStation” Final Fantasy character), Joker (GOTY PlayStation exclusive game), and Snake (only got ports except for the original, but has mainly been non-Nintendo and was in MGS4, PS3 exclusive at the time of original addition) instead of characters that would have been considered “Nintendo” like Cooking Mama, Phoenix Wright, and others. It’s almost as if it’s not as big of a deal as people are making it out to be.

Not to mention, where is Monster Hunter World Switch?

It seems like dudes try so hard to pretend that certain picks are inherently better because “Nintendo” and that’s just silly. Dante isn’t a worse pick than Phoenix Wright because he was only on Nintendo console recently, and it can’t even be used as a point against a character when that’s been broken 3 times already. Jeez, how lame.

 

[Shroob]

Also, I believe I saw someone mention Devil May Cry as the “PlayStation” Capcom IP where Nintendo gets the “scraps” and Monster Hunter is the title where it’s catered to Nintendo.

I just have to point out, like, y’all are aware we got Cloud (the “PlayStation” Final Fantasy character), Joker (GOTY PlayStation exclusive game), and Snake (only got ports except for the original, but has mainly been non-Nintendo and was in MGS4, PS3 exclusive at the time of original addition) instead of characters that would have been considered “Nintendo” like Cooking Mama, Phoenix Wright, and others. It’s almost as if it’s not as big of a deal as people are making it out to be.

Not to mention, where is Monster Hunter World Switch?

It seems like dudes try so hard to pretend that certain picks are inherently better because “Nintendo” and that’s just silly. Dante isn’t a worse pick than Phoenix Wright because he was only on Nintendo console recently, and it can’t even be used as a point against a character when that’s been broken 3 times already. Jeez, how lame.

Coming soon if we can believe Shinobi.

 

[Schnee117]

People would probably do well to remember where Monster Hunter actually got it's beginnings before coming to Nintendo

Coming soon if we can believe Shinobi.

Has he said it's World or is it still a "Monster Hunter Switch" thing?

 

[Shroob]

People would probably do well to remember where Monster Hunter actually got it's beginnings before coming to Nintendo



Has he said it's World or is it still a "Monster Hunter Switch" thing?

He never specified, just that Monster Hunter is coming before TGS.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Coming soon if we can believe Shinobi.

I assume it’ll be a new Monster Hunter, probably a more traditional one as opposed to the “breaking into the mainstream” and really great game, of MHW.

I haven’t played the more traditional ones and feel bad for that. I’m excited to see what we end up getting anyway.

 

[MooMew64]

Dante has a ton going for him IMO, and this is from someone who doesn't even want him.

Dante has:

• Popularity for Smash that got acknowledged by Capcom themselves.
• Said popularity stayed, and was especially high when FP2 would've been being planned.
• Recent release was super well received and has brought the series back into one of Capcom's forefront franchises.
• Has received multiple ports of his games on the Switch, making him a viable promotional pick.

There's probably even more than this: This is just what I could think of from the top of my head. Honestly, it's a to each their own situation: Nothing outright locks a character in until Nintendo themselves make the announcement, but compared to other Capcom contenders, it is my opinion that Dante has a ton of strengths and could very well be our Capcom rep if they get one in FP2.

Also, I don't know why people keep pushing Nintendo presence as if it's something that matters or is a requirement: Joker, Snake, and Cloud had little presence on Nintendo consoles during the time of their Smash inclusions. Heck, Snake still has very little on their systems. Seems like gatekeeping to me.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think having a Nintendo presence is a nice nudge for deciding certain characters (hence why I think various other Square character are slightly more likely than 2B), but once you've got a game on the system (and Dante certainly has his now), I'd say you're fairly safe in that regard.

 

[cosmicB]

Devil May Cry sits a solid 20 million units in terms of lifetime sales, but Dante is still pretty far from being a massive icon like Sonic, Snake, or Cloud.

Eh, he's pretty damn important. DMC basically decided the direction modern character action games would go in, leading to massive hits like God of War. We already have one of the results of its existence in the game in the form of Bayonetta.

Sales may be less than half of stuff like Metal Gear, but that doesn't suddenly make Dante not an icon, just a smaller one.

 

[Droodle]

Dante has a ton going for him IMO, and this is from someone who doesn't even want him.

Dante has:

• Popularity for Smash that got acknowledged by Capcom themselves.
• Said popularity stayed, and was especially high when FP2 would've been being planned.
• Recent release was super well received and has brought the series back into one of Capcom's forefront franchises.
• Has received multiple ports of his games on the Switch, making him a viable promotional pick.

There's probably even more than this: This is just what I could think of from the top of my head. Honestly, it's a to each their own situation: Nothing outright locks a character in until Nintendo themselves make the announcement, but compared to other Capcom contenders, it is my opinion that Dante has a ton of strengths and could very well be our Capcom rep if they get one in FP2.

Also, I don't know why people keep pushing Nintendo presence as if it's something that matters or is a requirement: Joker, Snake, and Cloud had little presence on Nintendo consoles during the time of their Smash inclusions. Heck, Snake still has very little on their systems. Seems like gatekeeping to me.

Yeah that's pretty much where I am.

Like me saying there are a lot of things that line up for Monster Hunter, doesn't imply that I don't think Dante has a good shot as well. Because like you said, ultimately Dante does have a lot of points in his favor. This isn't a zero sum game where only a single character from a certain company can be deemed as having a good shot as getting in as a character.

Is getting both Dante and Monster Hunter in Smash, unlikely? Perhaps. I think we'll probably just end up with one or the other.
Do each of their chances look really good in a vacuum? I'd say yes.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Eh, he's pretty damn important. DMC basically decided the direction modern character action games would go in, leading to massive hits like God of War. We already have one of the results of its existence in the game in the form of Bayonetta.

Sales may be less than half of stuff like Metal Gear, but that doesn't suddenly make Dante not an icon, just a smaller one.

Devil May Cry, Monster Hunter, and Resident Evil all feel like they embody Capcom's modern comeback story. After a bit of a somewhat lesser period for the company in the late aughts and early teens, those were the three big series that really got them back in critical and financial acclaim. Don't get me wrong, Mega Man 11 was a nice return to form and Street Fighter's always had a presence, but the combination of DMC5, MHW, and RE7/RE2 Remake all feel like they managed to win back their fanbase and score big with the general audience at the same time. Years after Keiji Inafune lamented the state of the Japanese game industry, 2017 and on has been the period which has really proved that Capcom is back and in a big way.

Had we not gotten that Resident Evil spirit event no doubt they'd be competing with Dante and the Monster Hunter in speculation right now.

 

[PSIGuy]

I think sales aren't as important as people make them out to be. Or rather they are, but not in the way people think. Most DLC selection is less "who sells enough copies to be worth adding" and more "what's the best bang we can get for our buck" - characters like Joker, Bayonetta, Banjo and Terry all reinforce this. Atlus rides hard on whatever their latest hit is, Nintendo payrolled Bayonetta, SNK won't turn down a paycheck (two bankruptcies does that to a company) and Microsoft created demand for Banjo-Kazooie that they were quick to deliver on (and I guess some good will). Diverse and beloved characters, but not exactly titans of the industry.

In comparison Capcom brands are well-known and dominant but they're actively building those brands whenever - and however - possible; they've licensed out Resident Evil, Devil May Cry AND Dragon's Dogma for tv shows, for instance. Square Enix are the exception that proves the rule - their additions were easily the biggest of each DLC season and even with their cooperation there are some caveats; no remixes, no FF spirits. The marketing push might've been a compromise where Square Enix fronted some of the licensing bills and asked for advertisement in return. They're really riding the line between "worth it or not". An even bigger character would end up not being worth it without Kojima "Please put my character in Smash so my son will finally play as Solid Snake" levels of cooperation. I can't see companies like Epic Games, who start lawsuits over Apple taking their 30% cut of App Store purchases, settling for less than what they think they're owed when it comes to Fortnite guy in Smash.

There's a Goldilocks Zone - "just right". Someone like Dante is in a good spot - popular and owned by frivolous tie-in lovers. SMTV guy is practically in Nintendo's pocket. Rex literally is in Nintendo's pocket. But there's give-and-take, a bit of bartering. People might buy the entire pass because there's one character they want which still means every other company involved gets paid. Knowing this, I don't think Microsoft would let Nintendo use their $2.5 billion net worth brand just because they're pals.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

My gut tells me Dante isn't happening.

No real reason. Just a feeling.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

You guys are doing that thing again where literally everyone is ganging up on one person. If you disagree that hard, just refresh the page and notice how several other people are already disagreeing super hard and leave it at that.

Guys

let’s maybe give him a break. It DOES kinda feel like ganging up. There’s disagreeing in a civil manner, and this... doesn’t really feel civil anymore

Haven't been here for much of the Dante/Crash arguments that have been ongoing, but I will say I have to agree with this.

I've seen this happen in this thread more times than I can count, and for the most part it's legitimately completely unnecessary. Not naming any names, but most of the time I see it happen, the "offender"'s behavior and arguments do not warrant the sheer number of passive-aggressiveness and potshot-riddled counter-arguments that they get bombarded with when a number of people disagree with them, regardless of whoever is making the more "valid" points in the debate. Heck, I'd be lying if I said I haven't been guilty of doing this myself before, and I think it's something we as a community should improve on. I've seen worse things happen in these sorts of threads, but this still kinda excessive at the very least.

Just my two cents.

 

[Schnee117]

Devil May Cry, Monster Hunter, and Resident Evil all feel like they embody Capcom's modern comeback story. After a bit of a somewhat dreary period for the company in the late aughts and early teens, those were the three big series that really got them back in critical and financial acclaim. Don't get me wrong, Mega Man 11 was a nice return to form and Street Fighter's always had a presence, but the combination of DMC5, MHW, and RE7/RE2 Remake all feel like they managed to win back their fanbase and score big with the general audience at the same time.

Had we not gotten that Resident Evil spirit event no doubt they'd be competing with Dante and the Monster Hunter in speculation right now.

Capcom still got work to do with fighting games (though SFV has done brilliant now its had its footing for a while and Ono leaving has me interested in the direction they'll take now) and maybe bringing back a few older franchises but yeah they've had an excellent few years now.

It astounds me that, with the Jurassic World series doing well, we haven't gotten anything Dino Crisis though.

 

[Gribbo]

and Snake (only got ports except for the original

I get what you're saying but I'm not gonna let you just disrespect Ghost Babel like that.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

Looks like Crash might got his one way ticket to Smash

 

[N3ON]

Devil May Cry (known as Devil May Cry in Japan) is a tier above much of what we got for DLC so far stature-wise, but you wouldn't be wrong to still put it below Sonic, Final Fantasy and Metal Gear.

From what I can tell, it rests somewhere in the middle.

But what you can do is disregard the term icon, again, because, again, it means different things to different people.

 

[Perkilator]

Looks like Crash might got his one way ticket to Smash

...What does this commercial have to do with that?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I get what you're saying but I'm not gonna let you just disrespect Ghost Babel like that.

Funny note,: in teams of titles with the character in a central role prior to getting into Smash, Snake had the exact amount of games with Nintendo (Metal Gear, Snake's Revenge, Twin Snakes, Ghost Babel) that Banjo did (Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo-Tooie, Grunty's Revenge, Banjo-Pilot), with the latter only beating in total games thanks to being in Diddy Kong Racing.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

The main reason Dante has even been on my mind concerning Smash is the sheer number of fake leaks that kept talking about him.

 

[PSIGuy]

Looks like Crash might got his one way ticket to Smash

I'm glad big dumb mascot outfit ads are still thing. Plus it bodes well for his reveal trailer just that one ad extended.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

...What does this commercial have to do with that?

It'll all make sense when Crash's character trailer involves him beating up the Nintendo costumed people from the Smash 64 commercial.

 

[Shroob]

It'll all make sense when Crash's character trailer involves him beating up the Nintendo costumed people from the Smash 64 commercial.

That would be the pinnacle of fanservice jesus christ.

 

[Droodle]

If Crash gets into Smash, the best thing would be if he got his fake costume as a full blown alt. Just make it look extremely shoddy.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Devil May Cry (known as Devil May Cry in Japan)

Muahaha.

Most excellent indeed. One of us.

 

[kylexv]

Looks like Crash might got his one way ticket to Smash

Fun Fact: The Crash Dance that he's been doing since Crash 2 actually originated in the marketing of the original game in Japan.

 

[Cosmic77]

I do think people have a tendency to exaggerate Dante's odds just because of his history.

I mean, yeah, it helps to have a history with Nintendo consoles, but we have just as many examples of characters with a long history on other consoles still making it in Smash.

 

[MonkeyDLenny]

...What does this commercial have to do with that?

I think it's supposed to show that Crash has a presence in Japan, which is something peeps like to bring up when trying to argue against Crash

Which really isn't true because Crash was HUGE in Japan; the fact that he was beloved both in Japan and in the West is why he was considered the third rival to Mario and Sonic

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If Crash gets into Smash, the best thing would be if he got his fake costume as a full blown alt. Just make it look extremely shoddy.

You mean Donte or is there a Dante impersonator in the games?

 

[Spongeboob]

You mean Donte or is there a Dante impersonator in the games?

There's Doppleganger in DMC3, but that's about it.

Looks like Crash might got his one way ticket to Smash

Gave me a chuckle.

 

[N3ON]

Looks like Crash might got his one way ticket to Smash

This is like when the drugs get on top of you.