Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Also Squid Sisters’s costumes had the OG Splatoon on the title card. They seem to be holding off on 2 content, so in theory Off The Hook costumes could happen with Octolings for example

Why would the Squid Sisters costumes use the Splatoon 2 logo at all? The designs those costumes are based on are from the first game, and it doesn’t make sense to use the sequel logo at all instead of just using “Splatoon”, the name of the series. The Team Rocket costume didn’t specify Pokémon Red and Blue.

 

[Cosmic77]

I mean, I don't think the Squid Sisters helped the Octolings.

Even if the Octolings were a character and we were getting something like Pearl and Marina Mii costumes, that still doesn't explain why they didn't go ahead and release the Squid Sisters together with the rest of the Splatoon content. Don't know why they'd treat it differently than Persona, DQ, SNK, and to a lesser extent ARMS where all the relevant costumes were released together regardless of whether or not they came from the same game.

 

[MooMew64]

Coming from the thread's resident Octoling guy, they're not really that likely at all, unfortunately. Min Min may have made things look a little better for them given the promotion of Spirits are now potentially on the table, but even then, it's an insignificant boost IMO. I'd rate them at like, maybe a 20% chance, and that's probably being a bit generous: There really isn't any way around them being a semiclone, and Sakurai seems to be focused on bringing characters that have entirely unique gameplay elements to them, so I really doubt we're gonna see semi-clones in Ultimate's DLC. I'm still supporting them no matter what, and if they end up defying the odds and make it in? Hoooo boy, y'all wouldn't be ready for how hyped I'd be. I'd heckin' lose it, lol.

For what it's worth, though, I feel they're pretty much an inevitability for next Smash, especially since Splatoon ain't going anywhere and Nintendo will probably have a Splatoon 3 to promote by then.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Gilgamesh in Smash should definitely have copies of the Buster Sword, Master Sword, Falchion, and Galaxia. And then tell everyone that their proper versions are inferior to his.

Add in a fake Keyblade and a Geno doll and we're money.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Add in a fake Keyblade and a Geno doll and we're money.

So that's how Geno gets deconfirmed? It's the Namco Roulette all over again!

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

So that's how Geno gets deconfirmed? It's the Namco Roulette all over again!

Given Gilgamesh's whole thing is finding knockoffs of iconic items, you could handwave it as a Chinese-produced fake that's nowhere near as deadly as the real toy.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

Agreed. I think Golden Sun is a great example of a series whose entries have always been released too early or too late to be seriously considered for Smash.
The first game was released shortly before Melee, the second about five years before Brawl, which featured three newcomers inspired by GBA games but all from established series. Then the third game was released late in life of the Nintendo DS.

I think Isaac's best chance to make the roster would have been if a Golden Sun game had been a launch title for either DS or 3DS, and sold about as well as, say, Xenoblade Chronicles.

The case of Golden Sun is quite interesting, if there was any time for the series to logically get into Smash, it would have been during the development of Brawl. While there is was a 6 year gap between the release of Lost Age and Brawl, the franchise was still somewhat active as there were least plans for Dark Dawn to be made during that time. Then in between Brawl and Smash 4, Dark Dawn came out and flopped so hard that the franchise got put on ice and that was right the time that Xenoblade 1 came out and just before Fire Emblem exploded in popularity with Awakening. Now those two series are right behind Pokemon for Nintendo's biggest JRPG franchises at the moment. Hell with the Switch generation, Nintendo is now taking JRPG's more seriously then they ever did, both first and third party JRPG to the point that for each year of the life of the system so far there has been at least one big JRPG (usually from either Nintendo themselves or Square Enix) that is an exclusive to the system. Nintendo actually taking the JRPG way more seriously then they did in the past, tells me this is now or never Golden Sun to return.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Then in between Brawl and Smash 4, Dark Dawn came out and flopped so hard that the franchise got put on ice and that was right the time that Xenoblade 1 came out and just before Fire Emblem exploded in popularity with Awakening. Now those two series are right behind Pokemon for Nintendo's biggest JRPG franchises at the moment. Hell with the Switch generation, Nintendo is now taking JRPG's more seriously then they ever did, both first and third party JRPG to the point that for each year of the life of the system

And yet people still complain about the ****ing National Dex being gone in Sword and Shield.

 

[N3ON]

I don't think DD performed as terribly as people make it out to have. The sales probably were disappointing, but I just think, when compared to a safe, presumably not-too-costly Mario sports title, gambling on an RPG doesn't make much sense fiscally.

I mean the first two GS games each sold over 1 mil, and we still had to wait eight years for the third one.

I came up with this a while back

But since it sold under 1 million, there's no real way to know just how many units Dark Dawn moved (outside Japan), Nintendo doesn't share that kind of info. The closest guess we can make, and keep in mind it's only a guess, is to use the percent of total sales the Japanese units account for in the first games to extrapolate for Dark Dawn's total performance, as we only have the Japanese figures, which are ~80k. In the past the Japanese sales accounted for about 20% of the total sales, so assuming that stayed about the same for Dark Dawn, which is only an assumption, the title moved, maybe, ~400k.

If that's at all close, it's not terrible for a niche title like GS, but it's nowhere near the performance of the first two, and it has to be less than a return on a Mario Sports game... hence the series' current status.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

The ordeal with Isaac is just all around unfortunate. Golden Sun has never been an abysmal failure or anything and, especially the first two, are quite well received critically.

Curiously, Nintendo seemed to make quite the ordeal out of the Golden Sun games releasing on Wii U if I remember correctly and there’s always been a steady and dedicated fan base behind the games so it is just quite baffling that a new game hasn’t been made. I mean, yeah Dark Dawn didn’t do great but it was on DS in 2010, the 3DS was on its way in and DS was on its way out, it wasn’t heavily promoted, it was a niche JRPG, and it still pulled in a decent amount.

I’m sure the swap from SD to HD probably put Camelot in a bit of a bind with Ultra Smash and then Aces right after but I think it’s time for Golden Sun to get another shot. And, who knows, maybe that game will mean Isaac will finally stop narrowly missing that Smash Window.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

And yet people still complain about the ****ing National Dex being gone in Sword and Shield.

I mean, it's a valid criticism. It's not something that would have been necessary if they had been given enough resources and instead of telling people more Pokémon will be compatible with the games later on, they decided to lie about having to redo their models from scratch (which would still reflect really poorly on them since the models were supposed future proofed) and making better animations (and while there are some great animations, there are just as many that just look lazy, and the majority of Pokémon still look kinda lifeless). Combine that with the lack of graphical polish, the worst story pacing yet, and DLC that has a lot of features that feel like they should have been in the base game and yeah, there's a lot of unhappy people.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

And yet people still complain about the ****ing National Dex being gone in Sword and Shield.

I’m not defending the people that spam Nat Dex or anything but playing through Isle of Armor made me realize that they could’ve done a lot more with the base game if they were given resources and time. Isle of Armor stand-alone is better than 80% off base SwSh.

Plus, y’know, there wasn’t very much transparency as to why the Dex was getting shafted. Especially when they mentioned Future Proofing Pokémon models and yet, 2/3rds of the Pokémon were gone.

As someone who started with Pokémon Silver/Yellow, I can tell you that the main reason I loved the games so much was because of the tag line. “Gotta Catch ‘em All”. Now it’s just “Gotta Catch What Fraction We Have in the Game”. Nat Dex is a valid complaint. The people doing it violently are the problem. Not the criticism.

 

[N3ON]

Just from a game perspective, Pokemon desperately needs some years off to craft something that actually feels polished and contemporary. However, from a profit perspective, nothing really needs to change... and thus nothing likely will.

It is a bit frustrating that Pokemon being Pokemon has given them license to avoid evolving the series (heh) more, since underperforming is not really a likely scenario. Their complacency doesn't really catch up with them. That said, Wild Area was a step in the right direction, but it still needs a lot of work.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Just from a game perspective, Pokemon desperately needs some years off to craft something that actually feels polished and contemporary. However, from a profit perspective, nothing really needs to change... and thus nothing likely will.

It is a bit frustrating that Pokemon being Pokemon has given them license to avoid evolving the series (heh) more, since underperforming is not really a likely scenario. Their complacency doesn't really catch up with them. That said, Wild Area was a step in the right direction, but it still needs a lot of work.

I was playing through DQ 11 recently and it just feels like what Pokémon should be. I'm not asking for "the breath of the wild of Pokémon" or "Monster hunter world with Pokémon". I'm just asking for a fun classic JRPG with a great world to explore, great music, great characters (and voice acting) and good animations that make me love the monsters. DQ 11 does that perfectly, it's not pretending to change the JRPG as we know it, but it does everything right and I just want a Pokémon game with that much effort and quality.

 

[Schnee117]

(and voice acting)

Remember how there's a whole cutscene where Piers is singing but there's no voice coming from him. He's just flapping his lips.

**** was ****ing hilarious and embarrassing.

 

[MooMew64]

As someone who's favorite Pokemon is SwSh, not having every Pokemon in the game is silly and unnecessary. SwSh takes a lotta steps forward, but also quite a few steps back too, and causes it to be in the same situation franchises like Sonic are in where there's clear potential and even previous examples of something incredible, but it's being hampered by poor decisions and management.

Pokemon makes stupid money. They could do amazing things with it...but they don't, 'cause they don't need to. It's another franchise that is unfortunately hampered by who owns it.

 

[ZelDan]

Honestly, my biggest gripe with Sword/Shield is also my biggest gripe with the Pokemon franchise in general. The fact that there isn't a hard mode or or that they don't make the game challenging in some way, like maybe making it so you can't justy use dozens of potions and whatnot in the middle of a Pokemon battle, or had something like this for gym battles atleast.

 

[Will]

Honestly, my biggest gripe with Sword/Shield is also my biggest gripe with the Pokemon franchise in general. The fact that there isn't a hard mode or or that they don't make the game challenging in some way, like maybe making it so you can't justy use dozens of potions and whatnot in the middle of a Pokemon battle, or had something like this for gym battles atleast.

honestly the pokemon company would profit off of some nuzlocke mode if they tried to make it some DLC

 

[Aetheri]

Pokemon as a franchise is one that I am personally just getting burnt out with. With XY I've given them the benefit of the doubt considering it was the first core series title going into 3D, especially considering having to make brand new 3D models for every pokemon. SuMo was an improvement from XY, but the was a very obvious problem with how they handled the progression with it's handholding, it's replayablility is atrocious. Pokemon as a concept is a game that has AMAZING replayability given how different your experience is simply based on which Pokemon you play as or how you approach playing the game but the way the games are designed goes directly against this concept. After my first playthrough I never felt the need to NOT want to play a Pokemon as much as Sun Moon since the game just forces you into tutorials and unskippable cutscenes that on the first playthrough are great but once you've played the game 5 or 6 times I just want to move ahead and play the damn game. Story isn't as important in Pokemon as it is in other cutscene heavy games (which still allow you to skip most of the time)

Once again with the Switch coming out and Nintendo dropping dedicated handhelds there was a lot of potential for Pokemon to truly make a leap into a territory they haven't been to before. Being the first of the core series (first new gen games not counting the Let's Go games) on a much more powerful home console, you can definitely tell the expectations were through the roof given what could've been done with the games. The first red flag was the lack of the national dex, while there were a fair number of fans that didn't mind (myself personally it's sucks but not really THAT big of a deal) but for some it was unacceptable. Then other issues started to arrise. And once again the game proved to be pretty much the same old Pokemon experience. While it's objectively not a bad game by any means it's one that just falls flat given the circumstances surrounding it. Even compared to other Pokemon games it doesn't really stand out that much apart from being on a home console. The wild area is an exception but it pretty much exemplifies the issue with Pokemon games. It's AMAZING during your first experience, but then it's just tedious on consecutive playthroughs as you just basically want to just get to the next area asap. Also doesn't help that a lot of the issues really start to stand out as you play through it more.

While I'm still going to be keeping an eye on Pokemon going forward, it just feels like it's getting stale and while a lot of the creative aspects of the games are great the business aspects are really holding it back from truly being something amazing. This is the number 1 media franchise in the world, above Star Wars, Marvel, Lego, above all of these other huge money pits, so it's starting to get tiring seeing the potential just being wasted.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Honestly, my biggest gripe with Sword/Shield is also my biggest gripe with the Pokemon franchise in general. The fact that there isn't a hard mode or or that they don't make the game challenging in some way, like maybe making it so you can't justy use dozens of potions and whatnot in the middle of a Pokemon battle, or had something like this for gym battles atleast.

Ah but you see if we made the games FUN people would abandon us for candy crush!

(This is actual game freak logic)

 

[Animegamingnerd]

I think my biggest problem with the Pokemon franchise at the moment, is that its clear is the way their turn base battle system to me at least feels incredibly dated compare what other turn base jrpg's are doing right now. They've been using the same UI for two decades at this point and in my opinion it would be better if they changed to something that resembles the UI of say P5, Cold Steel 3, or Yakuza 7 where each of the face buttons as a different function like which attack to use or just to access your inventory. Also the animations in battles are too slow, they really need a turbo/rush/press start to skip the animation or at least speed up the animations. I also think making double battles the standard for trainer battles would not only shake things up but allow us to better utilize certain strategies and moves we couldn't with just a standard 1 on 1 battle.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think my biggest problem with the Pokemon franchise at the moment, is that its clear is the way their turn base battle system to me at least feels incredibly dated compare what other turn base jrpg's are doing right now. They've been using the same UI for two decades at this point and in my opinion it would be better if they changed to something that resembles the UI of say P5, Cold Steel 3, or Yakuza 7 where each of the face buttons as a different function like which attack to use or just to access your inventory. Also the animations in battles are too slow, they really need a turbo/rush/press start to skip the animation or at least speed up the animations. I also think making double battles the standard for trainer battles would not only shake things up but allow us to better utilize certain strategies and moves we couldn't with just a standard 1 on 1 battle.

Pokemon's battle system is fine, it's easy to pick up and understand while being incredibly deep when getting into items and abilities. The issue is that the main game refuses to take advantage of it's own depth out of fear that kids will drop it for being too hard and despite Battle Frontiers typically taking advantage of it's depth, they got rid of it because "Well, not everyone cared about, the children didn't!" completely ignoring it's had fans who've enjoyed the series since the beginning.

Also Pokemon is the biggest franchise on the planet yet the games feel so cheap when compared to literally every other major release

 

[SargeAbernathy]

Having bought Sword after not having bought a mainline Pokemon game since ... Gold ... oh GOD I'm old. I was less than impressed with the game. I get the appeal of it, and I poured a lot of hours into the game. However, my time playing it was spent on collection quests and shiny hunting. And only because I was bored.

There's nothing intriguing about the game. The story is lame and the difficulty is stupid. I'm amazed at how some players talk about battle strategy during the plot. My strategy was to just go in an hit them with attack moves over and over. That's it. Probably the most strategy I gave was: "Oh, Grass Type gym? Well good thing I have my fire pokemon."

I think it's just a symptom of Nintendo trying to draw in as many average/new gamers at the expense of the veteran/core gamers.

There's a lot I could say about Sword/Shield ... but enough has been said in the months after its release.

 

[JCKirbs]

All of this talk about Pokemon SW/SH being so lukewarm and disappointing, yet there's still a possibility that Nintendo would want to shill for a franchise that already sells itself.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think it's just a symptom of Nintendo trying to draw in as many average/new gamers at the expense of the veteran/core gamers.

It's odd, because Let's Go was supposed to be the game for newcomers while Sword/Shield was meant the be the core Pokemon fan experience.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Having bought Sword after not having bought a mainline Pokemon game since ... Gold ... oh GOD I'm old. I was less than impressed with the game. I get the appeal of it, and I poured a lot of hours into the game. However, my time playing it was spent on collection quests and shiny hunting. And only because I was bored.

There's nothing intriguing about the game. The story is lame and the difficulty is stupid. I'm amazed at how some players talk about battle strategy during the plot. My strategy was to just go in an hit them with attack moves over and over. That's it. Probably the most strategy I gave was: "Oh, Grass Type gym? Well good thing I have my fire pokemon."

I think it's just a symptom of Nintendo trying to draw in as many average/new gamers at the expense of the veteran/core gamers.

There's a lot I could say about Sword/Shield ... but enough has been said in the months after its release.

You completely missed the golden age of the franchise my dude. Gens 3,4 and 5 were the best of the best.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

All of this talk about Pokemon SW/SH being so lukewarm and disappointing, yet there's still a possibility that Nintendo would want to shill for a franchise that already sells itself.

That's because Pokemon is literally too big to fall. SwoShi looks worse than ps2 games, has a dishonest cut, the story's somehow worse than ever and the big selling point is a gimmick that's literally just a rehash of the last two gimmicks. Despite this it's the best selling entry, which basically says "lol why should we ever put in more budget, time and effort when you'll buy it anyway". Pokemon is so successful that 8 million sales is considered a flop for a mainline game

 

[Hadokeyblade]

That's because Pokemon is literally too big to fall. SwoShi looks worse than ps2 games, has a dishonest cut, the story's somehow worse than ever and the big selling point is a gimmick that's literally just a rehash of the last two gimmicks. Despite this it's the best selling entry, which basically says "lol why should we ever put in more budget, time and effort when you'll buy it anyway". Pokemon is so successful that 8 million sales is considered a flop for a mainline game

I stand by the idea that it only did as well as it did due to false advertising.

People assumed that it was the first mainline console Pokemon games on console even though they arent. That title goes to Pokemon Colloseum.

Colloseum was one of the best Pokemon games ever and nobody ever talks about it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I stand by the idea that it only did as well as it did due to false advertising.

People assumed that it was the first mainline console Pokemon games on console even though they arent. That title goes to Pokemon Colloseum.

That's not false advertising, Colloseum and XD were always labeled as spinoffs and had heavy restrictions like the inability to catch whatever you found, the whole Shadow Pokemon gimmick and only ever having double battles. XD let you catch wild pokemon but they were only at specific spots and last I checked, laughably low level while being limited in which Wild mons were available. SwoShi's a mediocre ass game in a franchise where just 3 years ago, a mediocre mainline installment was cheaper but it didn't lie about that

 

[Hadokeyblade]

That's not false advertising, Colloseum and XD were always labeled as spinoffs and had heavy restrictions like the inability to catch whatever you found, the whole Shadow Pokemon gimmick and only ever having double battles. XD let you catch wild pokemon but they were only at specific spots and last I checked, laughably low level while being limited in which Wild mons were available. SwoShi's a mediocre ass game in a franchise where just 3 years ago, a mediocre mainline installment was cheaper but it didn't lie about that

Colloseum and XD are in fact mainline.

If they play like a mainline title, feel like a mainline title and you can trade with mainline titles then they are mainline games

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Colloseum and XD are in fact mainline.

If they play like a mainline title, feel like a mainline title and you can trade with mainline titles then they are mainline games

Eeeexcept they don't follow the formula, have drastically different ways of handling typical stuff, don't even let you pick a starter and everything you fight is predetermined, they're spinoffs

 

[SargeAbernathy]

You completely missed the golden age of the franchise my dude. Gens 3,4 and 5 were the best of the best.

I've gathered. I did try to start up Gen 3 at one point, but got sidetracked. They look great though.

 

[N3ON]

All of this talk about Pokemon SW/SH being so lukewarm and disappointing, yet there's still a possibility that Nintendo would want to shill for a franchise that already sells itself.

The series which receive promotional characters have never really been ones that needed it.

The franchises that could most benefit from Smash publicity don't even make it onto the roster.

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

The series which receive promotional characters have never really been ones that needed it.

The franchises that could most benefit from Smash publicity don't even make it onto the roster.

I feel like, barring Roy and Greninja (who are known to have been chosen before their games came out), people drastically overestimate how often Smash pulls "promotional" character choices. Corrin was from a game that was already out and popular in Japan at the time. Min Min is promotional for a game that came out three years prior. Hero is 1/4 promotional, 3/4 from games that are over a decade old minimum.

Also, let's not pretend that Smash hasn't already improved multiple series' prospects that had previously been "in need of promotion". Kid Icarus and Xenoblade come to mind.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Also the animations in battles are too slow, they really need a turbo/rush/press start to skip the animation or at least speed up the animations.

There's an option to not have battle animations. Or at least, there should be. It was in previous games but I suppose that doesn't guarantee that they didn't drop it like other quality of life stuff.

I really don't think the animations are the problem though, it's the need to stop and point out everything:

"Your Pokémon used a move!"
animation
"It's not very effective!"
burn animation
"The opposing Pokémon got burned!"
"The opposing Pokémon used a move!"
animation
"It's super effective!"
burn animation
"The opposing Pokémon got hurt by the burn!"

It can take even longer if there's a weather effect like hail, an ability that procks all the time, and/or if someone is using a move that hits 1-5 times because they play the animation for every hit for some reason. Really, these callouts need to happen as the animations are playing (and multihit moves need to have a changing animation instead of replaying the same one multiple times). If you're that afraid of players losing track of what's happening then add a battle log that explicitly states what just happened. You would lose nothing from doing so and battles wouldn't feel so sluggish.

I also think making double battles the standard for trainer battles would not only shake things up but allow us to better utilize certain strategies and moves we couldn't with just a standard 1 on 1 battle.

Hard disagree, though double battles should show up way more often than like, 5 times in the entire game. Bring back triple and rotation battles too. Basically anything that can switch up strategies would only add to the experience.

 

[SnowClaws]

Since the current discussion is about Pokemon, let go back to our favorite topic about a possible Pokemon rep being a Smash newcomer.

I was going to mention this character on International Waddle Day/Slowpoke Day (August 10), but Smashboard went down, so I miss the opportunity to bring this character up for that special occasion.

Here, is the mysterious character in question, and the one character who is going to be the Pokemon rep for this Fighter's Pass 2.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Here, is the mysterious character in question, and the one character who is going to be the Pokemon rep for this Fighter's Pass 2.

Galarian Slowking: Not the hero we asked for, but the hero we needed.

To be honest, I'd be perfectly fine with this result, as it would mean no Cinderace, Urshifu, Rillaboom, or Intelleon.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I really don't think the animations are the problem though, it's the need to stop and point out everything:

"Your Pokémon used a move!"
animation
"It's not very effective!"
burn animation
"The opposing Pokémon got burned!"
"The opposing Pokémon used a move!"
animation
"It's super effective!"
burn animation
"The opposing Pokémon got hurt by the burn!"

It can take even longer if there's a weather effect like hail, an ability that procks all the time, and/or if someone is using a move that hits 1-5 times because they play the animation for every hit for some reason. Really, these callouts need to happen as the animations are playing (and multihit moves need to have a changing animation instead of replaying the same one multiple times). If you're that afraid of players losing track of what's happening then add a battle log that explicitly states what just happened. You would lose nothing from doing so and battles wouldn't feel so sluggish.

It's funny you mention this because a Poketuber I watch invented Free For Alls as a format and because they lowered the battle timer from an hour to 20 minutes, FFAs tend to be shorter because stally teams just run out the timer far too quickly, especially with Leftovers, status animations and weather bufetting

 

[N3ON]

I feel like, barring Roy and Greninja (who are known to have been chosen before their games came out), people drastically overestimate how often Smash pulls "promotional" character choices. Corrin was from a game that was already out and popular in Japan at the time. Min Min is promotional for a game that came out three years prior. Hero is 1/4 promotional, 3/4 from games that are over a decade old minimum.

Also, let's not pretend that Smash hasn't already improved multiple series' prospects that had previously been "in need of promotion". Kid Icarus and Xenoblade come to mind.

Well, as far as the disputed characters go, the distinction is whether the addition is owing to a recent release, or to service a game at the behest of some authority. The difference, really, is simple. The trickier part is judging which character fits into which category, as we're not privy to that information and can only guess.

Some are obvious. Some are debatable.

And yes, Smash bolsters the standing of most series within, but in the case of, as per your example, Shulk, I believe that bonus incidental over deliberate. My point was just that the series in which the boost was deliberate aren't exactly those most needing.

 

[Powerman293]

The series which receive promotional characters have never really been ones that needed it.

The franchises that could most benefit from Smash publicity don't even make it onto the roster.

Hard agree. Same with Fire Emblem. It doesn't need anymore help than it already has.