Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Rie Sonomura]

>HAL Lab

maybe a Link’s Awakening style full 3D remake of Mother 3? With the questionable elements that prevented localization the first time edited or removed?

Spoiler

Fassad’s animal abuse toward Salsa the monkey will be toned down heavily, the Magypsies could use they/them pronouns/referred to as non-binary, and they’re DEFINITELY gonna sanitize that questionable hot spring scene

 

[Swamp Sensei]

For the record.

Literally every Nintendo IP with a character in Smash except Pokemon are first party IPs. It's all dependent on who owns the IP. Even if a third party studio works with an IP, the IP is still first party. Second Party IPs are co-owned, so Nintendo has some rights, but not full rights.

To make things crystal clear cause I don't want to repeat myself.

First Party IPs
Super Mario
Donkey Kong
The Legend of Zelda
Metroid
Yoshi
Kirby
Star Fox
Earthbound
F-Zero
Ice Climber
Fire Emblem
Game & Watch
Kid Icarus
Wario
Pikmin
R.O.B.
Animal Crossing
Wii Fit
Punch Out!!
Mii
Xenoblade Chronicles
Duck Hunt
Splatoon
ARMS

Second Party:
Pokemon

Third Party:
Metal Gear
Sonic
Mega Man
Pac-Man
Street Fighter
Final Fantasy
Bayonetta
Castlevania
Persona
Dragon Quest
Banjo Kazooie
Fatal Fury


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's a definitive list.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Huh, the 10th. Guess we have another date to look forward to, but considering how last Direct got carried hard by SMT, I'm gonna keep my expectations low when it comes to the number/quality of most announcements.

Yo****aka Murayama.

Why is that censored lmao.

 

[Opossum]

That's to be expected since Chrom's sword doesn't share the same knockback or damage as Roy. I don't like him from a design perspective, Sakurai made Lucina to be an easier Marth and considering Chrom shares the balanced sword trait as her, It's fair to assume that he was also made that way. That's why I don't like Chrom in Smash Bros.

I only suggested Storm thrust (or Storm Blade as it would be referred to) because it would have been changed from Marth to fit Chrom. Besides his flare blade doesn't make sense, there isn't even any fire from his blade and it looks more like wind which is why suggested that custom special.



But that was my point. Chrom is just easier Roy. That's what I don't like about him and why I'd like to see some changes.

Flare Blade makes perfect sense because Flare doesn't only refer to fire. It also refers to light, which is why Falchion is bathed in a shining light that travels up the blade when the move is held. It's building up energy.


But you're MISSING Idon's point. His point, and mine, comes down to a specific word you seem intent on using, and that word is "just." When you say Chrom is "just" an easier Roy, it implies he has nothing else to him, like with Lucina just being easier Marth. This is, objectively, incorrect. You gotta drop the "just."

 

[I.D.]

Second party is a made-up colloquial term with no strict definition so who knows what this guy is talking about. Intelligent Systems for example is not owned by Nintendo, they just do contracted work exclusively for them. However they don't co-own stuff, are they still second party? What about subsidiaries?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Huh, the 10th. Guess we have another date to look forward to, but considering how last Direct got carried hard by SMT, I'm gonna keep my expectations low when it comes to the number/quality of most announcements.



Why is that censored lmao.

Same reason you can’t write out the name of a certain Minamoto general from SMT

 

[Arcanir]

Wasted potential, if you ask me, even if what we have is mostly fine.

- should've gotten some of 's Custom Moves from Sm4sh so they could at least stand out enough. Here are some they could've used:


: Screw Rush


: Sleepy Toad
: Flower Bomber

(especially so)
: Dashing Assault
: Heavy Blade
: Dolphin Jump
: Iai Counter


: Amplifying Orbitars

- had three moves as an Assist Trophy that could've been transferred onto her (a flurry, a down Smash and a neutral Special, potentially), but NAAAAH. Let's make her literally floaty instead!
-'s Holy Water should've worked how it did in the games he was featured in, where it leaves a trail of blue fire.
- and Shadow were literally robbed, nobody cand deny that.

Really, I feel like are the only two Echoes who really fulfill the potential to strike a balance between different and same. Which kinda sucks, because the potential was clearly there.

Dark Samus' AT moves were probably too different to add reasonably with the amount of resources they had. The whole point of an Echo is not just that they're easy to add in, it's also that they're easy to balance against the rest of the roster since they don't have too big of changes to force you to test them out against the entire roster and see which ones struggle too much/don't struggle at all. Dark Samus' AT moves would probably require more work to balance against the roster since they are very different in property then just reusing Samus' moves with tweaks. Take the 'three orbs are shot out and follow you' move, that move is wildly different from anything Samus currently does in the game right now and was strong due to being tied to a summon assist then a character you have to fight, so you have to tweak the move so that it's not as dominant while also balancing it against the other characters.

Custom moves may've fell into a similar trap. They're variations of pre-existing moves, but tweaked in a way that may require further testing then they had the time and resources for. It also maybe didn't help that Custom moves weren't that well balanced in the first place, so that may require more work in getting them up to standard.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Second party is a made-up colloquial term with no strict definition so who knows what this guy is talking about. Intelligent Systems for example is not owned by Nintendo, they just do contracted work exclusively for them. However they don't co-own stuff, are they still second party? What about subsidiaries?

Intelligent Studios is just that. A studio.

But they work on Nintendo owned first party IPs like Paper Mario and Fire Emblem. IP and who own them are key here. Not who makes them.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It is worth noting the same person said this in response to a question about its second party status:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Why is that censored lmao.

Smashboards' filters are silly.
It's improving at least. I remember when you couldn't discuss Xenoblade's Dickson in any capacity.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

That insider may be legit, he got Eiyuden Chronicle right, whatever that is:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

*gets one thing right*
"You're legit"

oh please..

 

[I.D.]

and who own them are key here. Not who makes them.

How do you know he's talking about ownership though? This is the problem with terms like "second party" you don't know for sure what the other person is talking about.
For the record when I see people talk about second party they usually mean Nintendo games that aren't developed in-house. It's rare that I see your strict definition of second party being a matter of co-ownership.

Bonus: people on wikipedia also arguing about this crap a decade ago

 

[Cosmic77]

Regardless, unless the game is related to Pokemon, Golden Sun, or some other third franchise I'm not considering, "second-party" is probably not the term he should've used.

That term is rarely used, and most people go ahead and count Pokemon and Golden Sun as first-party franchises anyway. The way he uses it is very vague.

 

[WaddleMatt]

I assumed Fire Emblem and such was second party since IS is credited for characters in Smash. Same with APE, HAL, and Monolith.

Either way "second party" is a bull**** term.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Studios partially owned by Nintendo are a strange area. Especially when leakers can use the vagueness to weasel out of saying character 5 is a Nintendo character because Intelligent Systems is legally a seperate entity.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

But you're MISSING Idon's point. His point, and mine, comes down to a specific word you seem intent on using, and that word is "just." When you say Chrom is "just" an easier Roy, it implies he has nothing else to him, like with Lucina just being easier Marth. This is, objectively, incorrect. You gotta drop the "just."

Nah I can't drop it. Sure he has different combo set ups compared to Roy and can KO consistently but that comes from him having the balanced sword which in turn makes him Roy but easier. The only difference he has over him apart from the Balanced Sword is his Ike Up special so if you really want to get specific, he's an easier Roy but with an Ike up special.

I'm sorry but I don't see how that's objectively incorrect.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Damn we got leakers talking about second-party games, then they get asked a simple question and turns out they aren't even sure what exactly that entails.

 

[MooMew64]

I feel like we just cycle through leakers as the new flavor of the week at this point TBH.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I don’t think any leaker will have 100% legit information rn due to the beta/source code leaks from Nintendo. They’re trying to contain the issue so

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The only reliable leak we've gotten in the last 9 months has been the various beta/prototypes taken from the iQue servers.

So unless Nintendo had their Smash Ultimate DLC plans in the code of Mario Kart 64 some 25 years ago, I'll say we're probably going in blind for virtually all Directs here on out.

 

[Deleted member]

How about we make a pact to not post any leaks unless its coming from someone with a proven track record? Like at least 3 times having 'leaked' correctly? The rest of these are a waste of time and attention seekers until proven correct.

 

[Opossum]

Nah I can't drop it. Sure he has different combo set ups compared to Roy and can KO consistently but that comes from him having the balanced sword which in turn makes him Roy but easier. The only difference he has over him apart from the Balanced Sword is his Ike Up special so if you really want to get specific, he's an easier Roy but with an Ike up special.

I'm sorry but I don't see how that's objectively incorrect.

It's objectively incorrect because you're implying it's a complete one to one. Literally the only non-Balanced Blade difference Lucina has from Marth is her Shield Breaker stance that doesn't even effect hit boxes, besides the usual taunts and whatnot. That would be "just" an easier Marth.

Chrom has a lot more differences from Roy. Instead of one animation being altered, basically all of Roy's were to accommodate Chrom not using a reverse grip, with some of these even affecting the hit boxes. Chrom also has no fire effects, which is a gameplay difference and not a cosmetic one due to how explosives interact with Chrom's moves. Soaring Slash, as stated, is very different from Blazer, but it's also not a 1-to-1 for Ike's Aether. And then Chrom also has a totally unique Final Smash from Roy while Lucina copies Marth's Critical Hit. Even some animations that were kept for Lucina from Marth, like the idle animation, were changed from Roy for Chrom to better fit his character.

By saying Chrom is "just" easier Roy, it's ignoring all of the other work that went into making him comparatively much more different. It's an oversimplification that doesn't do the character justice.

 

[MooMew64]

The only reliable leak we've gotten in the last 9 months has been the various beta/prototypes taken from the iQue servers.

So unless Nintendo had their Smash Ultimate DLC plans in the code of Mario Kart 64 some 25 years ago, I'll say we're probably going in blind for virtually all Directs here on out.

This is how 64 Luigi wins.

Y'all ain't ready for 64 Luigi.

Spoiler

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

You say Chrom is easier to play then roy but I was so confused on how to play him when I tried. Yall should of seen me, I was a mess

 

[Opossum]

Honestly how I see the answer to the whole Party conundrum is to just look at the amiibo copyright.

Mario's has ©Nintendo. He's fully owned by Nintendo. Mario is first party.

Marth's has ©Nintendo/Intelligent Systems. This is a first party property created by an outside developer, but while Nintendo owns the IP, making it first party, they are crediting the studio who made it.

Sonic has ©SEGA. Nintendo has no mention here. As such, Sonic is clearly third party.

Pikachu is...interesting. The copyright on the amiibo is this:

©Pokémon
©Nintendo·GF·CR

There are two separate copyright holders listed, albeit abbreviated, with two distinct copyright notices. The first is just Pokémon for The Pokémon Company. The second is a joint one for Nintendo/GameFreak/Creatures Inc.

This is what I'd personally refer to as second party, where neither party has the full rights to the property, but both hold copyright.

 

[Cosmic77]

I get that Marth is by far the easiest FE character to clone, but I really do wish Sakurai could've found a way to make a clone of one of the other three (now four) fully unique FE characters. It's amazing how half of the eight FE characters were derived from the same moveset.

And before anyone writes my opinion off as invalid because they assume it's a personal attack on FE, I have the same problem with Zelda and the three Links. Star Fox isn't nearly as bad as FE and Zelda, but I wish Sakurai would've done more with its three characters too. I'd prefer to see characters without clones get something new for themselves instead of Sakurai revisiting those who already have one.

 

[MooMew64]

I get that Marth is by far the easiest FE character to clone, but I really do wish Sakurai could've found a way to make a clone of one of the other three (now four) fully unique FE characters. It's amazing how half of the eight FE characters were derived from the same moveset.

And before anyone writes my opinion off as invalid because they assume it's a personal attack on FE, I have the same problem with Zelda and the three Links. Star Fox isn't nearly as bad as FE and Zelda, but I wish Sakurai would've done more with its three characters too. I'd prefer to see characters without clones get something new for themselves instead of Sakurai revisiting those who already have one.

Like, I LOVE Ganondorf in all the Smash games, but the whole Falcondorf thing really is a dang shame. So much missed potential...Also Dark Samus. So, so much missed potential with Dark Samus...

 

[osby]

I think I missed something. Is there a rumor about second party characters or something?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I think I missed something. Is there a rumor about second party characters or something?

some guy on twitter claiming there's a mini on August 10th and a full direct (with presumably Smash info) in September. the mini would have info on a "noteworthy second party game" but nothing on smash

 

[XorahnGaia]

RE: The Setanta guy. It seems that his tweet about the Suikoden spiritual successor was posted a day after the news about the creator working on a new project came out:

Suikoden creator Yoshitaka Murayama: "I'm getting a little hunch that I'll finally be able to make an announcement regarding a new challenge soon." https://t.co/2jVKCX7zYp

— Gematsu (@gematsu) July 22, 2020

 

[Dark Bagel]

I feel like we just cycle through leakers as the new flavor of the week at this point TBH.

Flavors, you say? What's your favorite? Sabi Strawberry Sorbet? MandyCan-Crunch? A lot of people also go for what's available at VergeBen & Jerry's.

 

[Deleted member]

Flavors, you say? What's your favorite? Sabi Strawberry Sorbet? MandyCan-Crunch? A lot of people also go for what's available at VergeBen & Jerry's.

My favorite Flavor is Subway sponsored by NateDrake

 

[cosmicB]

People have been speculating about Murayama pulling an Igarashi and going the crowd-funded spiritual successor route for years now. Predicting that means literally nothing. Unless the guy literally posted the name before it was announced, there's no reason to believe he knows anything.

 

[N3ON]

For the record.

Literally every Nintendo IP with a character in Smash except Pokemon are first party IPs. It's all dependent on who owns the IP. Even if a third party studio works with an IP, the IP is still first party. Second Party IPs are co-owned, so Nintendo has some rights, but not full rights.

To make things crystal clear cause I don't want to repeat myself.

First Party IPs
Super Mario
Donkey Kong
The Legend of Zelda
Metroid
Yoshi
Kirby
Star Fox
Earthbound
F-Zero
Ice Climber
Fire Emblem
Game & Watch
Kid Icarus
Wario
Pikmin
R.O.B.
Animal Crossing
Wii Fit
Punch Out!!
Mii
Xenoblade Chronicles
Duck Hunt
Splatoon
ARMS

Second Party:
Pokemon

Third Party:
Metal Gear
Sonic
Mega Man
Pac-Man
Street Fighter
Final Fantasy
Bayonetta
Castlevania
Persona
Dragon Quest
Banjo Kazooie
Fatal Fury


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's a definitive list.

I mean technically, since Nintendo doesn't actually own Intelligent Systems, HAL, or Creatures (or Shigesato Itoi), and they co-own the respective IPs, by these restrictions, FE, Kirby and Mother would also fit. Xenoblade, I guess, wouldn't, because, while they co-own that IP, Nintendo does outright own Monolith.

Though this site takes special exception to the term second party. Whether or not its an actual thing, it's generally used as a shorthand to describe a property owned by the parent company, but not made by them. I suspect that is the context being used here.

But, also, who counts under it probably varies from person to person, especially since it entails some degree of research. I mean this person would even count the Metroid Prime Trilogy under it, even though Metroid is first-party, and Retro is first-party.

So who is technically second-party doesn't matter. Who this guy thinks is second-party matters. And even then it might not actually matter, because who knows if this guy is actually credible.

 

[RileyXY1]

What's going on about 2nd parties?

 

[I.D.]

Xenoblade, I guess, wouldn't, because, while they co-own that IP, Nintendo does outright own Monolith.

But even in this case there are further distinctions, because while Nintendo owns companies like Monolith and Retro, they are subsidiaries rather than integrated divisions like EPD, making them separate legal entities from Nintendo itself.

 

[Cosmic77]

I have no idea what game this guy is referring to, but if it's in another Partner Showcase, then I don't expect the title to be too affiliated with Nintendo.

A majority of the franchises brought up today probably wouldn't be discussed in a Direct mini that focuses specifically on the stuff that's not made by Nintendo.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I feel like we just cycle through leakers as the new flavor of the week at this point TBH.

It's like the first half Jojo's Bizarre Adventure Part 3. There's a new person every week and the show is overly long and drawn out.

 

[Lamperouge]

Yo, can we just get a 20+ minute direct for WWE 2K Battlegrounds pls

 

[N3ON]

But even in this case there are further distinctions, because while Nintendo owns companies like Monolith and Retro, they are subsidiaries rather than integrated divisions like EPD, making them separate legal entities from Nintendo itself.

It's a very murky distinction. That's why most people avoid it...

Yo, can we just get a 20+ minute direct for WWE 2K Battlegrounds pls

Can the last few minutes be designated for Bakugan at least?