Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Nemuresu]

Wasn't that one big leak with Ryu (the one with Ryu, Doomguy, and Steve) debunked though since we only have 2 characters left?

It was. Doesn't mean he's out of the picture though.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I actually have a lot of confidence in Doom Slayer being one of the remaining characters in the fighter pass. There are a lot of tidbits and evidence that help support the idea.

Sakurai has commented about John Carmack (lead programmer for the original Doom) referring to him as the father of FPS’s.

In an interview from September 2018, Pete Hines (Vice President of Bethesda) said Bethesda has talked to Nintendo in regards to Smash, and recently suggested there would be Doom related surprises for Nintendo fans.

Pete Hines also said that Nintendo has talked to him about the popularity of Bethesda games among Nintendo Switch owners (note that Skyrim and Doom released on the Switch back in 2017).

Mick Gordon (composer for the recent Doom games) said he's working on a video game project back in January (same time Grant Kirkhope was contacted to provide Banjo-Kazooie music for Smash)

Bethesda has also been partnering with Nintendo a lot lately (we even got Link’s BotW outfit in Skyrim), and their games are popular among Nintendo fans.

We know Nintendo chose the list of characters for the fighter pass, and it would make sense that Nintendo would want to include a character from arguably their most supportive 3rd party company (currently). Doom Slayer’s inclusion could even be used to promote the upcoming Doom Eternal, similarly to how the Hero is promoting Dragon Quest 11 Definitive Edition.

As for Sakurai, he is no doubt aware of how big of a deal the original Doom was, and seeing how Sakurai seems to like adding guest characters from from groundbreaking titles/franchises, I think he would totally be down with the inclusion.

I really think this is going to happen.

Sources

Spoiler

https://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/01/21/sakuraixnomuraparttwo/

https://nintendoeverything.com/pete...ship-with-nintendo-exclusives-and-smash-bros/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mTM-3YCOro&t=38m28s

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20..._the_studio_is_bringing_new_players_to_switch


https://web.archive.org/web/20190107212400/https://mick-gordon.com/666

 

[DarthEnderX]

So the fake leak just happened to guess Chrom and XY Pokemon when we know Chrom was considered and they put in a placeholder for a gen 6 Pokemon? Not to mention Wii Fit Trainer. One hell of a coincidence.

Yeah, two of them ended up being wrong. What an amazing coincidence...they nailed it SO hard...

Fake leak, huh?

Don't still see too many holdouts these days.

All leaks are fake.

 

[StormC]

Yeah, two of them ended up being wrong. What an amazing coincidence...they nailed it SO hard...

All leaks are fake.

Send me a gift from the nile since you're very clearly there.

 

[Door Key Pig]

Yeah, two of them ended up being wrong. What an amazing coincidence...they nailed it SO hard...

*grabs a seat and some popcorn*

...Continue, please.

 

[PeridotGX]

Yeah, two of them ended up being wrong. What an amazing coincidence...they nailed it SO hard...

All leaks are fake.

two out of ~15, one of which Sakurai has previously stated was planned to be playable.

 

[Leotsune]

Not lock lock

But I’m sure crash is one of last 2

And the other that comes to mind is the following

Leon or Jill valentine
Dante
Ryu hayabusa
Doomguy
Sans or some other rep from undertale

And if third party s not a factor

Dixie kong
Waluigi

And remind in future smash game(s) (or revolt) new first parties will rise immensely

I actually have a lot of confidence in Doom Slayer being one of the remaining characters in the fighter pass. There are a lot of tidbits and evidence that help support the idea.

Sakurai has commented about John Carmack (lead programmer for the original Doom) referring to him as the father of FPS’s.

In an interview from September 2018, Pete Hines (Vice President of Bethesda) said Bethesda has talked to Nintendo in regards to Smash, and recently suggested there would be Doom related surprises for Nintendo fans.

Pete Hines also said that Nintendo has talked to him about the popularity of Bethesda games among Nintendo Switch owners (note that Skyrim and Doom released on the Switch back in 2017).

Mick Gordon (composer for the recent Doom games) said he's working on a video game project back in January (same time Grant Kirkhope was contacted to provide Banjo-Kazooie music for Smash)

Bethesda has also been partnering with Nintendo a lot lately (we even got Link’s BotW outfit in Skyrim), and their games are popular among Nintendo fans.

We know Nintendo chose the list of characters for the fighter pass, and it would make sense that Nintendo would want to include a character from arguably their most supportive 3rd party company (currently). Doom Slayer’s inclusion could even be used to promote the upcoming Doom Eternal, similarly to how the Hero is promoting Dragon Quest 11 Definitive Edition.

As for Sakurai, he is no doubt aware of how big of a deal the original Doom was, and seeing how Sakurai seems to like adding guest characters from from groundbreaking titles/franchises, I think he would totally be down with the inclusion.

I really think this is going to happen.

Sources

Spoiler

https://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/01/21/sakuraixnomuraparttwo/

https://nintendoeverything.com/pete...ship-with-nintendo-exclusives-and-smash-bros/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mTM-3YCOro&t=38m28s

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20..._the_studio_is_bringing_new_players_to_switch


https://web.archive.org/web/20190107212400/https://mick-gordon.com/666

Well, looks like our last 2 reps are from western franchises *shrug*.
I don't mind but I do think Sakurai made some weird choices here...

 

[Polan]

All leaks are fake.

Nintendo has entered the chat

 

[DarthEnderX]

...Continue, please.

*shrug* It was a leak where two of the predicted characters didn't happen. I'm not sure why people continue to defend it.

I mean, Chrom did end up getting added eventually. In the next game. Years later.

If, like, 20 years from now, all the characters from the Grinch leak end up in Smash, do we suddenly say the Grinch leak was legit the whole time?

 

[Deleted member]

Since I dont recall well, apart from Chrom and Chorus Kids were there other characters that were in the Gematsu leak?

I remember that Rosalina, Robin, Lucina, Dark Pit and Bowser Jr didnt appear in the leaks righr? I think that if any change happened regarding any character, it was really early in development like in pretty much planning stages. Just like a lot of people had said in the past, the main issue with the leak is that it was quite outdated and the leaker made assumptions.

 

[Door Key Pig]

Since I dont recall well, apart from Chrom and Chorus Kids were there other characters that were in the Gematsu leak?

I remember that Rosalina, Robin, Lucina, Dark Pit and Bowser Jr didnt appear in the leaks righr? I think that if any change happened regarding any character, it was really early in development like in pretty much planning stages. Just like a lot of people had said in the past, the main issue with the leak is that it was quite outdated and the leaker made assumptions.

What assumptions specifically?

 

[StormC]

*shrug* It was a leak where two of the predicted characters didn't happen. I'm not sure why people continue to defend it.

I mean, Chrom did end up getting added eventually. In the next game. Years later.

If, like, 20 years from now, all the characters from the Grinch leak end up in Smash, do we suddenly say the Grinch leak was legit the whole time?

Except we know Chrom was considered and Greninja started out as a "XY Pokemon" slot. Chrom got far enough in considering that Sakurai even made a moveset for him.

Sakurai: I’ll give you an example– Chrom. When I decided who to have as a representative from “Fire Emblem: Awakening,” I had thought up a moveset from Chrom, but no matter what he just ended up as this mix between Ike and Marth, and he didn’t come together very well. But when I thought of the “sword and sorcery/magic” concept with Robin, the character’s individuality showed very well.

There is enough evidence where it seems more difficult to me to figure out how they would guess Wii Fit Trainer and guess the nature of how the very early stages of character choices were made. It's likely their intel was outdated and incomplete, but a flat out a lucky guess would be miracle.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

*shrug* It was a leak where two of the predicted characters didn't happen. I'm not sure why people continue to defend it.

I mean, Chrom did end up getting added eventually. In the next game. Years later.

If, like, 20 years from now, all the characters from the Grinch leak end up in Smash, do we suddenly say the Grinch leak was legit the whole time?

It’s pretty much accepted that the Gematsu leak was legit, but out of date. We know Chrom was seriously considered early on, and datamining Smash 3DS found leftover data relating to a Rhythm Heaven fighter; that along with the fact that the only enemies in Smash Run are from games with playable characters, with the exception of an enemy from Rhythm Heaven and Ice Climber, and we know for a fact that the Ice Climbers were scrapped characters for the game.

Most legit leaks aren’t going to have 100% of the information correct, just due to the means of how and when they obtain their information.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Something I noticed is how the emblem listing for Rhythm Paradise lacks the infamously cut Ice Climber series, so I speculate it was only after the cutting of the Ice Climbers that the CKs or whoever didn't make the cut, maybe not even for technical reasons?

If that’s the case then I’m inclined to believe the move set is the reason they aren’t a character rather than any technical limitations. If Sakurai had an idea for a fighter but couldn’t get it working due to 3DS limitations, you would think he would revisit the idea once he no longer had to develop with the 3DS, but he didn’t.

 

[Deathcarter]

Idk why but I have a hunch that Lloyd's Mii costume may be released alongside Hero. He is a JRPG character and would fit right in with whatever Square costumes we do end up getting, so I wouldn't be surprised if they end up lumping him into wave 2

The Virtua Fighter costumes not being included with the other Sega costumes makes me seriously think the Lloyd and Gilgamesh will be added with Hero. The later in particular is basically a nobody among Western audiences so it makes a lot of sense to release Gil's costume alongside Hero when more Japanese players are engaged in Smash again.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Most legit leaks aren’t going to have 100% of the information correct, just due to the means of how and when they obtain their information.

I guess I just don't consider leaks legit if they end up being wrong.

It's like, okay, Dixie had files in Brawl's code. That seems like a pretty "legitimate" source. It's two games later and that character still isn't in the game.

If the legitimacy doesn't produce any results, than what value does that legitimacy even have?

 

[StormC]

Most leaks are not coming from like, a direct employee working on a game. They are second/third/fourth hand information, at best. Games of telephone get played, outdated information doesn't get filtered out... especially if the information came from the very early development in a game that took over a year to be even presentable to the public. Doesn't mean the original source doesn't have some legitimacy.

As an example, the ESRB leak started as an ESRB employee showing his friend the pictures. The friend posted those photos in a group chat. Someone in that group chat posted it on /v/. And the rest is history.

 

[Deleted member]

What assumptions specifically?

I remember that the leak got some dates wrong but those were mostly on the leaker's part.

By the way, now that we are talking about leaks. Was Ryu leaked in 4 before the datamine showing he was coming? you know, was there anyone saying he was coming?

 

[StormC]

I remember that the leak got some dates wrong but those were mostly on the leaker's part.

By the way, now that we are talking about leaks. Was Ryu leaked in 4 before the datamine showing he was coming? you know, was there anyone saying he was coming?

None of the DLC was leaked by people online except for Tansut who teased Cloud a couple of days before his reveal. Going off of Cloud and Hero, Square is pretty leaky when it comes to Smash.

 

[PLATINUM7]

All leaks are fake.

It's times like this I wish we started using the words leaks and rumours correctly.

All leaks are true. Rumours are what may be false.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I guess I just don't consider leaks legit if they end up being wrong.

It's like, okay, Dixie had files in Brawl's code. That seems like a pretty "legitimate" source. It's two games later and that character still isn't in the game.

If the legitimacy doesn't produce any results, than what value does that legitimacy even have?

If you want to say that the info regarding Chrom and Chorus Kids doesn’t matter at the end of the day, because it didn’t come to fruition that’s fine I guess, but what sense does it make to dismiss the rest of the leak?

If we got a leak that predicted most of the characters of Brawl including out there picks like Pokémon Trainer and R.O.B., but also included characters that we know were scrapped like Dixie Kong and Toon Zelda would you say that leak as a whole was fake too because it mentioned a couple of scrapped characters?

 

[DarthEnderX]

If we got a leak that predicted most of the characters of Brawl including out there picks like Pokémon Trainer and R.O.B., but also included characters that we know were scrapped like Dixie Kong and Toon Zelda would you say that leak as a whole was fake too because it mentioned a couple of scrapped characters?

If a leaked can't be trusted to be accurate, then what value does it have to newcomer speculation?

More specifically to the point, people still predicting freaking Chorus Kids years and an entire game later because of a leak that ultimately wasn't accurate?

At least nobody is still predicting Toon Zelda or Plusle/Minun.

All leaks are true. Rumours are what may be false.

Leaks aren't true if they're fake.

Something like the Grinch leak isn't a rumor, it is a faked leak. And thus, a leak that isn't true.

 

[Door Key Pig]

If that’s the case then I’m inclined to believe the move set is the reason they aren’t a character rather than any technical limitations. If Sakurai had an idea for a fighter but couldn’t get it working due to 3DS limitations, you would think he would revisit the idea once he no longer had to develop with the 3DS, but he didn’t.

I mean, there were also a limited amount of newcomers for Ultimate, and it's easy to consider the ballot choices and much more popular Nintendo franchises (even the "unique" character of this game) would be higher priority (I mean, I don't think Chorus Kids could have filled the Plant's role of surprise character... Right?). I don't blame the lucrative Pokemon, Splatoon and Animal Crossing for getting characters, and K. Rool, Ridley and Simon Belmont seemingly dwarfed fan support of RP, which may not have been crazy high in fan ballot recounts? But both 4 and Ultimate had a Rhythm game release around its project plan, so it couldn't have an excuse of irrelevancy like Plusle & Minum (assuming they were a scrapped Brawl character) would have had. And 4 & Ultimate's development periods were much closer together than other Smash games, so it'd be prime time to bring over a scrapped idea from the former to the latter.

I guess it's a question of if Sakurai plans the whole moveset within the project plan or not? Like he said those things about Chrom, maybe he only looks further into the moves within development and simply considers what characters to do first? If so, then maybe it was a problem in relation to crafting a moveset.

 

[StormC]

More specifically to the point, people still predicting freaking Chorus Kids years and an entire game later because of a leak that ultimately wasn't accurate?

Because there is plausible enough evidence that Chorus Kids were planned and cut, and we know Sakurai has gone back to characters he has considered before. This isn't rocket science.

That said I don't see us getting a Rhythm Heaven character anytime soon unless the series makes a notable comeback.

 

[Door Key Pig]

Yeah, I and others legitimately want a Rhythm character in Smash, and others still want Dixie. IDK about Toon Zelda/Sheik and Plusle & Minum though lol

Because there is plausible enough evidence that Chorus Kids were planned and cut, and we know Sakurai has gone back to characters he has considered before. This isn't rocket science.

That said I don't see us getting a Rhythm Heaven character anytime soon unless the series makes a notable comeback.

Another reason in the strangeness in their absence for Ultimate, especially when the OTHER Gemetsu leaked no-show finally got in as an echo fighter.

Totally not bitter about that BTW, nope, Chrom took way less development then they would have,,,

Though on the second part? Rhythm had a game released near this Smash's project plan JUST LIKE it did last time when it was totally planned to get a character. Does Rhythm really need TWO often-disparate games made just to be considered for a character in THIS Smash?

 

[PLATINUM7]

Leaks aren't true if they're fake.

Something like the Grinch leak isn't a rumor, it is a faked leak. And thus, a leak that isn't true.

Calling it the Grinch leak is a misnomer. It was really a Grinch rumour or Grinch hoax.

A leak is when legitimate secret information is shared. The Grinch rumour ended up being false, so it's incorrect to a call it a leak.

And this

Something like the Grinch leak isn't a rumor, it is a faked leak.

This is literally changing the definitions of words.

 

[StormC]

Though on the second part? Rhythm had a game released near this Smash's project plan JUST LIKE it did last time when it was totally planned to get a character. Does Rhythm really need TWO often-disparate games made just to be considered for a character in THIS Smash?

Kinda? Like, we still don't know why they were cut in 4. Could be low priority, could have been hard to do a rhythm moveset, could have been unable to run on 3DS. Then you get Ultimate and the newcomers are either from long-running series with fan demand (K. Rool, Ridley, Simon Belmont) or from recent, very successful games (Isabelle, Incineroar, Inkling). I just don't think the series warranted it in Sakurai's eyes when the amount of new characters he could add was so limited. It's also pretty obscure outside of Japan (and yeah, Dragon Quest, but DQ is a top 3 series in Japan).

So... if the DLC is going to all be third party outside of Piranha Plant, the series is going to either need overwhelming fan demand or recent successful titles to get a shot at being in the next Smash. That's how I see it, anyway.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Leaks aren't true if they're fake.

Is there a Nobel Prize for philosophy? Because if so you've earned it man, such insight!

 

[N3ON]

Idk, I think there are real leaks and there are fake leaks.

Rumours are what leaks spawn prior to verification. They're the content of the leak. Like the Grinch leak was the leak, it was fake, but it spawned the rumour that Banjo, Shadow, Isaac, Geno, Ken, Chorus Kids and Mach Rider were included.

That's my take.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Idk, I think there are real leaks and there are fake leaks.

Rumours are what leaks spawn prior to verification. They're the content of the leak. Like the Grinch leak was the leak, it was fake, but it spawned the rumour that Banjo, Shadow, Isaac, Geno, Ken, Chorus Kids and Mach Rider were included.

That's my take.

Lets be honest the Ken image leak was for sure real most notably.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Calling it the Grinch leak is a misnomer. It was really a Grinch rumour or Grinch hoax.

No, it was not a rumor. A rumor is "Hey, I heard this thing." or "My sources are telling me that..." The Grinch leak was a "Hey, here's a promotional image from the game that was leaked by this other company."

Yes, the leak was a hoax, but you don't know it's a hoax until after the fact. Unless you assume all leaks are hoaxes, which I do.

The Grinch leak was a hoax, and a FAKE leak, but it was not a rumor.

Is there a Nobel Prize for philosophy? Because if so you've earned it man, such insight!

It is the correct response to the phrase "all leaks are true".

 

[PLATINUM7]

It was a leak because that's the way it was present. It wasn't a "Hey, I heard this thing." It was a "Hey, here's a promotional image from the game that was leaked by this other company."

Yes, the leak was a hoax, but you don't know it's a hoax until after the fact. Unless you assume all leaks are hoaxes, which I do.

The Grinch leak was a hoax, and a FAKE leak, but it was not a rumor.

Rumour: a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth

How was it not a rumor?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Eh, we're getting too much into semantics. If somebody wants to think something was fake, just let it be. It's not worth creating a giant argument over.

Rule of thumb; if somebody is wrong on the internet, there is no need that they "have" to be corrected. It's not honestly that important. Sometimes it's better to let it be.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Rumour: a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth

How was it not a rumor?

Because the Grinch leak was neither a story, nor a report. It was a piece of leaked promotional material.

That material was fake. Making it...a fake leak.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

to answer my 11th question, even though I haven't played the gta games I have some knowledge of the franchise so the answer to my 11th question would be CJ.

Now for the 12th Question.
Question 12
Witch M-rated Character would you prefer to see in fighters pass.
1:Doomslayer
2:Scorpion(aside from the fact that Mortal Kombat was banned from japan)

 

[UberPyro64]

Well, looks like our last 2 reps are from western franchises *shrug*.
I don't mind but I do think Sakurai made some weird choices here...

I agree wholeheartedly. My bets are on Doom and Resident Evil. Both groundbreaking franchises.

 

[Sari]

to answer my 11th question, even though I haven't played the gta games I have some knowledge of the franchise so the answer to my 11th question would be CJ.

Now for the 12th Question.
Question 12
Witch M-rated Character would you prefer to see in fighters pass.
1:Doomslayer
2:Scorpion(aside from the fact that Mortal Kombat was banned from japan)

Doomguy. I've never been a fan of Mortal Kombat.

 

[Icedragonadam]

I think there's now genuine evidence that there's going to be another patch no later than July 19th. Why? Because of the Pokemon Trainer, Pichu, and Isabelle amiibo releasing in Japan and Europe on that day.

There was a patch a few months ago(2.0.2) which was for adding support for the Ken, Young, Link, and Daisy amiibo.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_updates_(SSBU)

So no doubt the next patch will add support for this month's wave of amiibo. Of course whether it's 3.1.1 or 4.0.0(which will add Hero), is the question.

 

[Leotsune]

I think there's now genuine evidence that there's going to be another patch no later than July 19th. Why? Because of the Pokemon Trainer, Pichu, and Isabelle amiibo releasing in Japan and Europe on that day.

There was a patch a few months ago(2.0.2) which was for adding support for the Ken, Young, Link, and Daisy amiibo.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_updates_(SSBU)

So no doubt the next patch will add support for this month's wave of amiibo. Of course whether it's 3.1.1 or 4.0.0(which will add Hero), is the question.

I recall someone saying that the Smash YT channel uploaded a private video.
I don't have the source tho.

 

[StormC]

Japanese summer break starts on Monday so that seems as good of a time as any.