Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Meanwhile is just sorta...there.

Only in Melee. Young Link is the classic Link playstyle in Ultimate, so he definitely serves a purpose of the original moveset. Toon Link is vastly different from either Link as is.

However, we don't have the classic style entirely even with Young Link there. As he's a fast version of the original mvoeset. I do want him more updated with stuff like other items. Majora's Mask alone has some cool items(though a big thing is we don't really have major items from MM that stand out from OOT beyond the masks). But you could certainly give him MM aesthetics, at least.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Only in Melee. Young Link is the classic Link playstyle in Ultimate, so he definitely serves a purpose of the original moveset. Toon Link is vastly different from either Link as is.

However, we don't have the classic style entirely even with Young Link there. As he's a fast version of the original mvoeset. I do want him more updated with stuff like other items. Majora's Mask alone has some cool items(though a big thing is we don't really have major items from MM that stand out from OOT beyond the masks). But you could certainly give him MM aesthetics, at least.

Part of me wonders if the reason Young Link focuses on Ocarina of Time more is because he's... "Young" Link.

If he was inspired by Majora's Mask... Would he just be Link?

 

[Knight Dude]

Still catching up on the thread, but damn, you ****** don't like Sylux much I guess. I thought he was pretty neat. Most of that supposed first party pass would be mid for me, with Sylux being the one I could actually get into. I was huge into Prime Hunters so I ended up playing him, Spire and Weavel quite a bit. Dude could steal your health and lay down mines. So he's got moves/gimmicks to pull from, along with the other special weapons used in Prime Hunters.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I don't mind alternate selves as long there's something unique about the version whether it representing something different, different playstyle or even just showing a different part of the character.

I guess that's why I dig characters like Paper Mario, and even .

Meanwhile is just sorta...there.

is actually my preferred Link. His move set just connects with me. I guess cause he’s the most like Melee and Brawl Link in comparison to the other two. That and being fast as **** and having some bopping Fire Arrows. I guess Ocarina of Time being one of my favorite Zelda’s and Majora’s Mask being tied with MGS4 for my favorite game ever might contribute to that a little too.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

is actually my preferred Link. His move set just connects with me. I guess cause he’s the most like Melee and Brawl Link in comparison to the other two. That and being fast as **** and having some bopping Fire Arrows. I guess Ocarina of Time being one of my favorite Zelda’s and Majora’s Mask being tied with MGS4 for my favorite game ever might contribute to that a little too.

How they feel to play is a different matter entirely.

I like how all three Links feel to play.

Though Toon Link is my favorite with OG Link right behind.

 

[GoodGrief741]

"Sell well"

I mean, that's a bit debatable, sadly.

Sticker Star is the 2nd best selling game in the series at like 2.7 million or something.



It's not bad but, when you see colossal sales of Switch games in the 10 million range, it's hard to call shy of 3 mil "Well", though, maybe my standards are just unreasonably high. Color Splash sold like **** though.

It's unreasonable to expect any game to sell in the 10 million range, only the biggest series in gaming can consistently deliver those numbers. Keep in mind that RPGs, generally speaking, are more of a niche genre like fighting games and nowadays there's not too many of them that truly break past the 3mil range.

I've seen a surge in regards to Lip and I don't get why. I understand that "OOO SHE GOT A GAME ON SWITCH". It makes sense on the surface, but once you start looking back at characters previously speculated because "they had games on Switch", Things Fall Apart. I have listed them down below. I don't have a problem with Lip getting in, nor am I going to accuse anyone in particular of thinking this, but methinks to think "being on Switch" is more 'evidence' of a character getting in is hogwash, especially when only appeared as a costume in Sonic Forces, whereas had absolutely none, not even after release. (Yes, I have been found guilty of having this mindset before.)

Spoiler: "B-b-but they had a game on Switch!"

Yeah, and so did...

• Doomguy
• Arle Nadja
• Crash Bandicoot
• Dante
• Freddy Fazbear
• Tracer
• Jonesy (from Fortnite)
• Scorpion
• Chosen Undead
• Ryu Hayabusa
• (insert Resident Evil character here)
• Steve (from Minecraft)
• Shantae
• Rex (from Xenoblade Chronicles 2)
• Cuphead
• Phoenix Wright
• Spyro the Dragon

View attachment 271808

Literally all the characters you listed also have had the "they have a game on Switch so they're likelier" argument used. If it works for them it works for Lip.

But I think you're missing the point. Sure, Lip getting a game on Switch helps, but the surge probably owes its existence moreso to the fact that this is the first worldwide release of Panel de Pon in its original form. Being region-exclusive is a big barrier, so surpassing it is a big deal.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Part of me wonders if the reason Young Link focuses on Ocarina of Time more is because he's... "Young" Link.

If he was inspired by Majora's Mask... Would he just be Link?

I think it's more that The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask came out a year before Super Smash Bros. Melee; That version of him didn't exist when the character was being designed, and they couldn't (or just didn't, but more likely couldn't) change it when it did.

EDIT: That and characters almost never receive major updates. Link and Pit are the only two that even come close to doing so.

 

[Shroob]

It's unreasonable to expect any game to sell in the 10 million range, only the biggest series in gaming can consistently deliver those numbers. Keep in mind that RPGs, generally speaking, are more of a niche genre like fighting games and nowadays there's not too many of them that truly break past the 3mil range.



Literally all the characters you listed also have had the "they have a game on Switch so they're likelier" argument used. If it works for them it works for Lip.

But I think you're missing the point. Sure, Lip getting a game on Switch helps, but the surge probably owes its existence moreso to the fact that this is the first worldwide release of Panel de Pon in its original form. Being region-exclusive is a big barrier, so surpassing it is a big deal.

I mean, I'm not expecting it to sell in the 10 mil range but, the majority of the Paper Mario gallery has barely broken 3, with Super being the highest grossing.


With how large the 3DS' install base was, as well as being a Mario game, you'd assume that Sticker Star would have sold a little more.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Part of me wonders if the reason Young Link focuses on Ocarina of Time more is because he's... "Young" Link.

If he was inspired by Majora's Mask... Would he just be Link?

Yes, the core thing was that he was Young compared to regular Link. Note that the US Melee game says he's from the first game, but the JP Melee says he's from OOT and MM.

So as he was intended to be from both games anyway(but used nothing but OOT aesthetics, mainly due to it being already made and was easier to do as is. Bar the Deku Shield, which wouldn't be any different from using any other Shield. He uses the Hookshot and Bow from OOT as is).

He'd have a different name either way. I imagine it's just the fact he's clearly a younger version. He's the Young version in MM design-wise(as Fierce Deity Link is basically a retexture of adult Link too, but with more model pieces) as well. If he did use the Masks in any way, even taunts, then perhaps Mask Link?

 

[Captain Shwampy]

"Sell well"

I mean, that's a bit debatable, sadly.

Sticker Star is the 2nd best selling game in the series at like 2.7 million or something.



It's not bad but, when you see colossal sales of Switch games in the 10 million range, it's hard to call shy of 3 mil "Well", though, maybe my standards are just unreasonably high. Color Splash sold like **** though.

I'd never thought id ever see some one undersell selling over a million copies lol

 

[Shroob]

I'd never thought id ever see some one undersell selling over a million copies lol

On an install base as large as the 3DS?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Literally all the characters you listed also have had the "they have a game on Switch so they're likelier" argument used. If it works for them it works for Lip.

That was the point. It didn't work for them.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

On an install base as large as the 3DS?

Yes.

You know how many games would kill for a million seller?

 

[Shroob]

Yes.

You know how many games would kill for a million seller?

I dunno.

For a triple-A flagship series(Mario in general) with the 3DS' massive install base.

There's no way other than to say that's low. A Pokemon game could hit 2 million sales and still be considered low, hell, I'm fairly certain TPC/Gamefreak considers a lot of their under performing games to be low sales.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

On an install base as large as the 3DS?

Selling past 300k alone is already considered a success in most cases

Either way you get a new Paper Mario every new console gen so no way is it failing at anything.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Bar the Deku Shield, which wouldn't be any different from using any other Shield.

Actually, Young Link's shield was distinct from Link's in that it did not block powerful projectiles like a fully charged Charge Shot. It's a neat detail that I don't think got carried over into Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

I dunno.

For a triple-A flagship series(Mario in general) with the 3DS' massive install base.

There's no way other than to say that's low. A Pokemon game could hit 2 million sales and still be considered low, hell, I'm fairly certain TPC/Gamefreak considers a lot of their under performing games to be low sales.

This is the line of thinking that killed many a franchise prematurely.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Actually, Young Link's shield was distinct from Link's in that it did not block powerful projectiles like a fully charged Charge Shot. It's a neat detail that I don't think got carried over into Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

I meant when using assets from another character. Most of Young Link's stuff comes from reusing Link's assets. The Kokiri Sword and Deku Shield are the one exception, from what I remember. Bow, Hookshot, Bombs, all assets from Link. This is why they're the OOT and not MM version.

Though it was pointed out MM came out not that long ago, so it would've been more difficult to use MM assets. Ultimate however doesn't have that excuse and could've evolved him a bit more with the assets. Deku Shield is one thing, same with Kokiri Sword, but Bow and Hookshot couldn't be MM now?

 

[Shroob]

Actually, Young Link's shield was distinct from Link's in that it did not block powerful projectiles like a fully charged Charge Shot. It's a neat detail that I don't think got carried over into Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.


This is the line of thinking that killed many a franchise prematurely.

Is it cold? Absolutely.

But that's business. I dislike how Capcom handles their metrics of success or failure, but I can at least vaguely see where they're coming from, even though their expectations are way too high.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Is it cold? Absolutely.

But that's business. I dislike how Capcom handles their metrics of success or failure, but I can at least vaguely see where they're coming from, even though their expectations are way too high.

*Laughs in Square-Enix*

no seriously the fact that a game at Square can do over 10 million and still miss sales goal is just blasphemous.

Edit: Ok, I’m being a little unfair. Tomb Raider got to 3.9 million and didn’t meat sales expectations but it’s sold upwards to 11 million now but they haven’t said if that is considered a success or not.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

*Laughs in Square-Enix*

no seriously the fact that a game at Square can do over 10 million and still miss sales goal is just blasphemous.

Edit: Ok, I’m being a little unfair. Tomb Raider got to 3.9 million and didn’t meat sales expectations but it’s sold upwards to 11 million now but they haven’t said if that is considered a success or not.

My guess is that it has to do with certain games having a ton of license holders, so they need to meet very high numbers to pay everyone properly. It can also depend upon how big the IP is. There's multiple factors of what treats it as a success or failure, or just meets the threshold.

 

[Vintage Creep]

I personally don't think it's exactly how old it is. 10 or 20+ years per se.

I think it's more about whether or not it harkens back to Sakurai's youth.

Well that's his pick but he doesn't decide what's retro for the masses lol

 

[Cutie Gwen]

*Laughs in Square-Enix*

no seriously the fact that a game at Square can do over 10 million and still miss sales goal is just blasphemous.

Edit: Ok, I’m being a little unfair. Tomb Raider got to 3.9 million and didn’t meat sales expectations but it’s sold upwards to 11 million now but they haven’t said if that is considered a success or not.

Isn't that the one that needed to sell 5 million to 'break even'? I wanna know how the hell that's even possible

Is it cold? Absolutely.

But that's business. I dislike how Capcom handles their metrics of success or failure, but I can at least vaguely see where they're coming from, even though their expectations are way too high.

Didn't Mega Man 11 'pleasantly surprise' Capcom despite not seilling over a million?

 

[Shroob]

Isn't that the one that needed to sell 5 million to 'break even'? I wanna know how the hell that's even possible

Didn't Mega Man 11 'pleasantly surprise' Capcom despite not seilling over a million?

Which is ironic considering they considered RE7 underselling despite its pretty great sales last I heard.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Didn't Mega Man 11 'pleasantly surprise' Capcom despite not seilling over a million?

I mean. It sold over a million last year.

I imagine its a lot more now.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Though it was pointed out MM came out not that long ago, so it would've been more difficult to use MM assets. Ultimate however doesn't have that excuse and could've evolved him a bit more with the assets. Deku Shield is one thing, same with Kokiri Sword, but Bow and Hookshot couldn't be MM now?

No that's more of the fact that characters rarely get updated, and almost never get overhauled.

Well that's his pick but he doesn't decide what's retro for the masses lol

For me, it's everything from the 90's and earlier that isn't also still notable in the current era.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

No that's more of the fact that characters rarely get updated, and almost never get overhauled.

As I said, he is from MM too, so it seemed kind of silly.

But I guess it was far easier or something to use the original versions, I guess? Perhaps all they did was take the models/animations(but not the gameplay coding as that needed reprogramming) from Melee and cleaned them up or something? I dunno.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Isn't that the one that needed to sell 5 million to 'break even'? I wanna know how the hell that's even possible

Didn't Mega Man 11 'pleasantly surprise' Capcom despite not seilling over a million?

Expensive assets or voice acting might take over a games budget so sales have to reflect that.
MM11 probably isnt too taxing to make

 

[Vintage Creep]

What do you guys think is right now the most mindblowing character that nobody thinks is possible but would definitely deserve to appear in Smash Bros.?
After Cloud, Ridley and Banjo I mean, what is the new "It'll never happen"?
My pick would be CJ from GTA San Andreas, or anyway any GTA character for that matter.
I feel Sakurai would be able to make him work, just make it more comical like Snake (just imagine his entrance being him on the bike from the beginning of the game for example, or his winning animation being him stealing a car from some random dude), but I don't think he'll ever try it.
I never said once that Cloud, Ridley, Banjo, K. Rool or any other "impossible" character was never going to be in. For GTA though, I draw the line, I feel like neither of the parties involved would actually be interested.
But damn would CJ in Smash destroy everyone's sanity and actually be a fantastic character.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I mean. It sold over a million last year.

I imagine its a lot more now.

Back when Capcom said that it was at 870,000 which judging by Shroob's post would be considered a flop by Capcom

 

[Arcanir]

I dunno.

For a triple-A flagship series(Mario in general) with the 3DS' massive install base.

There's no way other than to say that's low. A Pokemon game could hit 2 million sales and still be considered low, hell, I'm fairly certain TPC/Gamefreak considers a lot of their under performing games to be low sales.

It's all about expectations really, a mainline Pokémon game selling that low would be terrible for all parties involved, but a spinoff selling that much may not be that bothersome depending on what the company was expecting. The PMD series for instance hasn't sold over 2 million since Explorers of Time and Space, yet it's the only non-mobile spinoff that has survived from the older days and has gotten two other entries and a recent remake. So TCPi may see it as a successful enough venture to let it continue while other spinoffs have faded into the void.

Paper Mario could be the same, it may not make as much as the mainline games, but that doesn't mean it's selling lowly either. For IS and Nintendo 2 million may just be the mark that they wanted to hit, and getting that much may get them to break out the good wine for the night.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

But I guess it was far easier or something to use the original versions, I guess? Perhaps all they did was take the models/animations(but not the gameplay coding as that needed reprogramming) from Melee and cleaned them up or something? I dunno.

I kinda doubt it. It's been stated that they always build the characters from scratch, and while I don't think that's true for most characters in Ultimate, I don't think they'd go as far back as Melee to pull assets from assuming this practice was due to technological reasons (I'd have to do more research to really say for sure though). I'd be willing to bet the Brawl characters that skipped the previous game were made from scratch as well.

I think it's safe to assume that Young Link used Link as a base, though since Toon Link's proportions are much different than the other two's (and the fact that a ton of his animations and even attacks are different), I think he was made from the ground up to be very similar to the other two on purpose, which is sillier than not updating Young Link if that's the case (in my opinion at least).

 

[osby]

I think it's safe to assume that Young Link used Link as a base, though since Toon Link's proportions are much different than the other two's (and the fact that a ton of his animations and even attacks are different), I think he was made from the ground up to be very similar to the other two on purpose, which is sillier than not updating Young Link if that's the case (in my opinion at least).

I don't think it's that silly. Link already got updates for his new design. And keeping a character's moveset close to another fighter is always easier than giving them brand new moves to work with, as it comes with additional designing, balancing, possibly more model work, etc.

Considering how the development team was pressed for time, not spending more time to update yet another Link isn't that bad of a decision, even if the game's direction required them to bring him back.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I kinda doubt it. It's been stated that they always build the characters from scratch, and while I don't think that's true for most characters in Ultimate, I don't think they'd go as far back as Melee to pull assets from assuming this practice was due to technological reasons (I'd have to do more research to really say for sure though). I'd be willing to bet the Brawl characters that skipped the previous game were made from scratch as well.

I think it's safe to assume that Young Link used Link as a base, though since Toon Link's proportions are much different than the other two's (and the fact that a ton of his animations and even attacks are different), I think he was made from the ground up to be very similar to the other two on purpose, which is sillier than not updating Young Link if that's the case (in my opinion at least).

Actually, Toon Link was created from Young Link, not Link. So it's more likely Toon Link was used as a base. But who knows on the assets. That's a fair point. I guess going back to the original design felt like the best move. Probably easier in the end since it's just returning a Melee/Brawl veteran. Coupled with the game not having much time, and it was probably just something they didn't think of. Being made from scratch for the most part too also matters in that regard. Using bases aside(Wolf probably used Fox as a base again, though at least a few of Wolf's moves were still customs from Smash 4, so that helps a bit), a lot of extra work is done for some. If look at it, many newcomers and even veterans clearly had bases from other characters. Simon/Richter were unique, but then you have Villager/Wolf/Pichu/Young Link/Daisy/Dark Samus/Chrom who use other bases(as I said, Toon Link makes more sense for Young Link, since they're the same size, so the difference is more in changing up the skeleton again. Though regular Link could've been used as a base, but the Hookshot surely came from Toon Link this time around) as is, among the base game anyway. King K. Rool and Ridley, as well as the Belmonts are unique, but could've used other small assets. The whips possibly were retooled somewhat from ZSS, for example.

But eh. It's kind of late and there's many examples I doubt I can think of.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's all about expectations really, a mainline Pokémon game selling that low would be terrible for all parties involved, but a spinoff selling that much may not be that bothersome depending on what the company was expecting. The PMD series for instance hasn't sold over 2 million since Explorers of Time and Space, yet it's the only non-mobile spinoff that has survived from the older days and has gotten two other entries and a recent remake. So TCPi may see it as a successful enough venture to let it continue while other spinoffs have faded into the void.

Paper Mario could be the same, it may not make as much as the mainline games, but that doesn't mean it's selling lowly either. For IS and Nintendo 2 million may just be the mark that they wanted to hit, and getting that much may get them to break out the good wine for the night.

It's also worth keeping in mind that companies do listen to feedback.

If a Paper Mario game flops, the developers aren't just going to destroy the IP. They investigate why it flopped. If the reason is deemed that consumers want a Paper Mario game but felt a new entry wasn't good. There is room to grow and a chance at more money. If the reason is because there is no interest, then developers move on.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It's also worth keeping in mind that companies do listen to feedback.

If a Paper Mario game flops, the developers aren't just going to destroy the IP. They investigate why it flopped. If the reason is deemed that consumers want a Paper Mario game but felt a new entry wasn't good. There is room to grow and a chance at more money. If the reason is because there is no interest, then developers move on.

To me it seems that oftentimes fan backlash is the fan's way of saying "nope! Try again" with a huge emphasis on the try again part. It's pretty cool that series that StarFox and Sonic the Hedgehog can exist in this weird state of flux where they flip flop all the time in the hopes that they'll one day live up to what made them special before instead of just dying.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I mean here’s a recent Nintendo example. I don’t think Samus Returns ever passed the million mark or it may have just passed it but apparently Nintendo was very satisfied with that game. To the point that rumors have been swirling for a while now that MercurySteam is developing a 2D Metroid for Switch. So yeah, there’s that.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, according to all the leaks that reported on a new Paper Mario game this year, it's supposedly going to be a return to form, so perhaps we should be cautiously optimistic.

Oh wait that's true! What else was rumoured ?

 

[Vintage Creep]

I mean here’s a recent Nintendo example. I don’t think Samus Returns ever passed the million mark or it may have just passed it but apparently Nintendo was very satisfied with that game. To the point that rumors have been swirling for a while now that MercurySteam is developing a 2D Metroid for Switch. So yeah, there’s that.

I mean the budget for Samus Returns certainly wasn't as high as other major games, that's vastly the reason. If Zelda BotW turned a profit after let's say 5 million copies sold (I don't know really, just a guess), for Samus Returns the profit was reached a lot sooner, I'd say around 300k copies, probably even less.

 

[Knight Dude]

Oh wait that's true! What else was rumoured ?

A 2D Metroid and supposedly a bunch of Mario Remasters, but I don't know if those two are connected. I know the Metroid one was.

 

[Diddy Kong]

If there's gonna be another 2D Metroid , am betting on a Super Metroid remake. It's about time.