Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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  • Kind of want to try that steak he's eating...

    Votes: 60 21.8%
  • Edge "Blocking" potential!

    Votes: 102 37.1%
  • Mine Cart Carnage

    Votes: 55 20.0%
  • Kirby²

    Votes: 131 47.6%
  • IHOB: International House of Boom

    Votes: 51 18.5%
  • Still looking forward to No More Heroes 3!

    Votes: 54 19.6%
  • RIP Player 2 Amiibo

    Votes: 63 22.9%
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    Votes: 86 31.3%
  • More Assist Trophy costumes please!

    Votes: 86 31.3%

  • Total voters
    275

3BitSaurus

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China though? A fresh gaming market, holding 1/6 of the world's population, a place where Smash actually, really isn't that popular, and where the number of people with a disposable income = the entire population of the US? That alone is reason enough to include a character like her. Her popularity in these parts of the world opens Smash to new people who might not have played it otherwise, with the added benefit that once again, Mai is a popular pick in her native country as well.
Again, why do you keep replying to me as if I'm saying Mai isn't popular? That's not at all what I'm saying.

That's because you're asking a small section of people who play KoF or play Smash. Once again, the character's popularty extends well beyond both those boundaries given her appearances in other media, and her overall popularity as a gaming icon purely on merch and cosplay alone. It's the same situation as when Smash fans would talk over which Final Fantasy character they wanted to see in Smash before Cloud got in. No one ever considered him, and it was even laughable to mention him. Everyone said Terra, or Black Mage, NO ONE said Cloud, but little did they realize just how popular and high in demand Cloud was in Asia. Square Enix's mascot character and most obvoious pick. Literally the same situation as Mai. Which is exactly why I'm bringing her up as a character that's flying under everyone's radars. Because just like Cloud, Ryu, and Yuusha, and so on... she's a character people are dismissing due to personal biad, despite being the most obvious objective choice for a character pick in Smash. She's more than iconic enough to deserve a spot on the roster.
Hoo, boy. That's a whole lot of assumptions you're making. How do you know I'm asking "just a small segment" and that they only play KOF or Smash, man? Mai is not obvious, nor is she an "objective best pick", because objective best picks don't exist. In general. I swear, it's like the people who complained about Hero because Sora was "objectively the best" all over again.

As for Cloud, people thought he was impossible because of the "not on Nintendo console" fanrule. I don't remember anyone denying his popularity. Everyone knew about how popular and demanded he was, but no one thought he was realisable as a character. Plus, Cloud is the protagonist of FFVII, even if by the time of his inclusion he was no longer the most recent, he was still the most popular by a wide margin. His situation is not similar to Mai's at all.

You're bringing Mai up as a character people are sleeping on. That's fair. But you're also sleeping on a lot of other characters, ironically enough.

I'm sorry m8, but your poll holds very little weight considering it's got less that 1000 votes. This kanji right here 票 the ones you see next to the numbers, means "votes" with Terry who takes the number 1 spot only having 254 total. This was clearly distributed among only a very small section of hardcore SNK fans in Japan, probably a specific magazine. Hardly representative of the demographics that like Mai Shiranui as a character. Again, her popularity extends well beyond KoF and Final Fight, she's a gaming icon in her own right, and why I keep saying she's basically recognized as SNK's mascot. Because outside of the diehard SNK fandom, she's found significantly MORE popularity from people who don't play the KoF games, or from KoF fans in other parts of the world, most notably, once again, Korea, Hong Kong, China, and Vietnam. To answer your question of why merchandise moved is "the best way" is because that's something that's actually quantifiable, especially over a small poll that gathers less than 1000 votes. Again, the fact that Mai sees the most crossovers out of any other SNK character (and any other videogame cahracter really), speaks for itself on how popular she really is.
Frankly, I don't see how discarding fan polls, no matter if they only get only a few thousand votes or not, helps speculation in any way. People were saying the same thing about other characters's merchandise, like Steve, and look where we are now. Sure, it's an important factor in speculation. I'm not saying it isn't. But it's one factor out of many. Treating it as a flat out confirmation is not a good idea.
 

Nquoid

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I'm sorry m8, but your poll holds very little weight considering it's got less that 1000 votes. This kanji right here 票 the ones you see next to the numbers, means "votes" with Terry who takes the number 1 spot only having 254 total. This was clearly distributed among only a very small section of hardcore SNK fans in Japan, probably a specific magazine. Hardly representative of the demographics that like Mai Shiranui as a character. Again, her popularity extends well beyond KoF and Final Fight, she's a gaming icon in her own right, and why I keep saying she's basically recognized as SNK's mascot. Because outside of the diehard SNK fandom, she's found significantly MORE popularity from people who don't play the KoF games, or from KoF fans in other parts of the world, most notably, once again, Korea, Hong Kong, China, and Vietnam. To answer your question of why merchandise moved is "the best way" is because that's something that's actually quantifiable, especially over a small poll that gathers less than 1000 votes. Again, the fact that Mai sees the most crossovers out of any other SNK character (and any other videogame cahracter really), speaks for itself on how popular she really is.
I literally have no dog in this fight but two points here:
1) This is an actual source to back up claims that are being made, that Mai is one of the 5 most popular characters from SNK, a lot of what you've argued is entirely baseless without proof. You've said she's the most popular cosplay character, but a quick google search says that's Junko from Danganronpa
2) the sample size of the poll is more than enough to make the claims that he is making, and can't just be thrown out because you don't think the sample size is big enough
 

tenworldsguy

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BTW, what is the deal with Dragalia Lost? It is a 1stparty IP or not at all? some people told me that it's owned by Cygames because Dragalia Lost is part of the Cygames multiverse or something like that, but i found this https://trademark.trademarkia.com/dragalia-lost-79258558.html , it says it's a trademark of nintendo, but if you do a quick search: https://trademarks.justia.com/876/55/dragalia-87655619.html here it says it's a cyames trademark so it's really confusing.

It's Dragalia Lost 1stparty or 3rdparty?
I have a friend who really wants Euden in, to the point of making an entire moveset for him (I even used his moveset in the story I write). It's a shame he's farrrr too late, because from what I understand he's like Corrin in the dragon-shifting abilities but can turn into more than one dragon as well as having an actual personality (sorry corrin mains). Getting him in would again break smash "rules" to a lesser degree bc he'd be the first mobile character.

Maybe Smash 6, should DL be relevent then?
 
D

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I literally have no dog in this fight but two points here:
1) This is an actual source to back up claims that are being made, that Mai is one of the 5 most popular characters from SNK, a lot of what you've argued is entirely baseless without proof. You've said she's the most popular cosplay character, but a quick google search says that's Junko from Danganronpa
2) the sample size of the poll is more than enough to make the claims that he is making, and can't just be thrown out because you don't think the sample size is big enough
In the posts I made on the last page I offered up numerous sources where people qualified her as a gaming icon, and SNK's mascot. Additionally, said links also have sources to her once again being qualified as the most popular character in cosplay, citing examples such as character exclusive contests in Asia. Additionally, I showed how she's the most crossed over character in gaming. I think all of those sources are way more valid sources that a small poll with a very narrow voting pool that only seemed to target a specific group of people. Not quite something you can extrapolate, especially considering that Mai, once again moves the most merchandise. A quick search on google or any other platform will show you that she has TONS of merch, far more than any other SNK character, being a popular figurine, with numerous different versions, and arguably far more than most female characters in gaming. Mai's status as a gaming icon, and popularity are undeniable. I'm not invested in this conversation enough to go around digging for numbers of EXACTLY how much merch she moves, or how many different products she's got, etc... (if those even exist), but just looking into the character, reading about her, seeing all the merch she pulls up, seeing how she's recognized and popular outside of her own franchise, and considering that she's been titled as the most popular character in cosplay, and the most crossed over in gaming by people who WOULD have sources on all this, I'd say that's more than enough to admit that yeah, she stands well above the rest of the SNK characters. It's just mountains and mountains of evidence. It's common sense my dude. People are gonna cross over the character that's most popular. If Terry was the most popular character, he'd be seeing the most crossover appearances, same way Ryu does over Chun Li, but for SNK, it's Mai that's heads and heels above the rest of the SNK cast in crossover and guest appearances. How anyone could argue against this evidence is beyond me.

Idk how that classifies as "baseless proof" when it stares at you right in the face.

Also, a google search of Mai Shiranui brings up Mai Shiranui, not some Daganrompa character, idk where you're pulling this from, but it sounds like a case of "well this isn't my experience, therefore it's not true."

Irrelevant since number of crossovers doesn't denote a mascot and as far as SNK published material they consider those three characters their mascots
Terry and Nakoruru are the characters that named SNK's foundation for educational/social purposes
Terry and Nakoruru were the characters front and center of the "goodbye" picture released when SNK went bankrupt for the first time
Terry, Kyo, Kula and G-Mantle are the characters showcased in VIGAMUS, the video game museum of Rome
Aside from SNK Heroines, every other banner on the SNK official site has Kyo, Iori, Terry and Athena with no Mai in sight
See above.

If Terry or Nako were more popular, they'd see more guest appearances that Mai, just like Ryu does over Chun Li.

Hoo, boy. That's a whole lot of assumptions you're making. How do you know I'm asking "just a small segment" and that they only play KOF or Smash, man? Mai is not obvious, nor is she an "objective best pick", because objective best picks don't exist. In general. I swear, it's like the people who complained about Hero because Sora was "objectively the best" all over again.
Unless you're asking 10s of thousands of people from all over the world and different groups, your sample counts as nothing more than anectdotal evidence my dude. Sorry. It can't be taken as nothing than just a personal experience, it holds no weight.

Mai is an objective pick given her status as a gaming icon, being regarded up there with the likes of Lara Croft, and Samus, and Chun Li, as one of the most iconic females in gaming, and the fact that she's regarded as the 2nd most iconic character in fighting games, alongside Chun Li, with various Chinese polls and other companies, regarding her as "SNK's most significant character" source for that posted in my previous posts. This holds a lot more weight than a small poll or whatever people here are arguing.


As for Cloud, people thought he was impossible because of the "not on Nintendo console" fanrule. I don't remember anyone denying his popularity. Everyone knew about how popular and demanded he was, but no one thought he was realisable as a character. Plus, Cloud is the protagonist of FFVII, even if by the time of his inclusion he was no longer the most recent, he was still the most popular by a wide margin. His situation is not similar to Mai's at all.
People make up dumb rules and sleep on characters for that reason all the time. That's the point I'm making. Cloud was disregarded due to personal bias of people preferring Terra or Black Mage due to being closer to Nintendo, despite the fact that he was the most obvious pick for a FF and even SE character, and was incredibly popular in Asia. It's the same situation with Mai. Her popularity in Asia makes her an obvious pick for an SNK character, and sets her up as a very significant gaming icon. Something people aren't willing to recognize due to:

"she's too sexy"
"I'd prefer Terry"

You're bringing Mai up as a character people are sleeping on. That's fair. But you're also sleeping on a lot of other characters, ironically enough.
Not quite, Nako and Terry have been talked about endlessly, and have been considered numerous times. Mai has basically no support or discussion, when if you take a step back and realize how significant she is, you realize that to gaming as WHOLE and when factoring her CULTURAL IMPACT, she's way more imporant than those two.


Frankly, I don't see how discarding fan polls, no matter if they only get only a few thousand votes or not, helps speculation in any way. People were saying the same thing about other characters's merchandise, like Steve, and look where we are now. Sure, it's an important factor in speculation. I'm not saying it isn't. But it's one factor out of many. Treating it as a flat out confirmation is not a good idea.
Because your sample size is too small for it to be extrapolated. Doubly so if you disregard thins like merch and cosplay and crossovers, and the titles she holds in those areas.
 

RileyXY1

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Mai would have to be heavily censored in order to get in, so I don't consider her very likely.
 

TheGuv

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Is Fatal Frame 1stparty? if yes i think she's pretty likely next game tbh, FF is pretty "well known" with gamers so i wouldn't be susprised if she's considered to be playable.
 
D

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Mai would have to be heavily censored in order to get in, so I don't consider her very likely.
People said the exact same thing about Bayonetta, who's way more sexual than Mai. Mai has also already been censored for western releases of FF2, and has slightly more tame outfits. Additionally, she has a full model in SNK Heroines that can be rotated in full view (like Smash trophies), and that's a game that was advertised on a Nintendo Direct iirc. Adding the fact that DLC for a game is not rated, and there's hardly an issue in adding her to the Fighter's Pass.
 

coolmancool

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If we get a SNK rep, I really hope its from Metal Slug. I love Metal Slug. Not very good at it, but its so much fun. Plus, they would fit well in Smash.
 

RileyXY1

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I think that we're more likely to get Terry, Kyo, or Iori when it comes to SNK reps anyways.
 
D

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If we get a SNK rep, I really hope its from Metal Slug. I love Metal Slug. Not very good at it, but its so much fun. Plus, they would fit well in Smash.
The way I see it playing out, should it happen:

Mai Shiranui as a character.

A KoF stage, something like this:


or this
1561903830550.png

SNK Mii Costumes. Metal Slug Stuff as Gunner, Kyo and Terry as Brawler, Haomaru as Swordfighter. Perhaps Nakoruru too. Some spirits, etc...
 
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3BitSaurus

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Unless you're asking 10s of thousands of people from all over the world and different groups, your sample counts as nothing more than anectdotal evidence my dude. Sorry. It can't be taken as nothing than just a personal experience, it holds no weight.

Mai is an objective pick given her status as a gaming icon, being regarded up there with the likes of Lara Croft, and Samus, and Chun Li, as one of the most iconic females in gaming, and the fact that she's regarded as the 2nd most iconic character in fighting games, alongside Chun Li, with various Chinese polls and other companies, regarding her as "SNK's most significant character" source for that posted in my previous posts. This holds a lot more weight than a small poll or whatever people here are arguing.
Sure, you can say it's anecdotal, but your original point was that people unanimously ask for her and love her more than any other SNK character. Which is simply not true. That's why I made that statement in the first place. Yes, she is popular in Asia and appears in a lot of region-exclusive games and merch, but that is by no means a lock for Mai. This is what I've been trying to say for the past 5 posts or so. Sure, they could go with her. There's nothing really stopping SNK or Nintendo in that regard. But there's nothing stopping them from picking literally any other popular SNK character either.

Also, "unless you're asking 10s of thousands of people from all over the world and different groups"? Sounds like a fanrule to dismiss fan polls if you ask me.

At this point, I'm legitimately starting to think you're just skimming through my posts and immediately dismissing them.

People make up dumb rules and sleep on characters for that reason all the time. That's the point I'm making. Cloud was disregarded due to personal bias of people preferring Terra or Black Mage due to being closer to Nintendo, despite the fact that he was the most obvious pick for a FF and even SE character, and was incredibly popular in Asia. It's the same situation with Mai. Her popularity in Asia makes her an obvious pick for an SNK character, and sets her up as a very significant gaming icon. Something people aren't willing to recognize due to:

"she's too sexy"
"I'd prefer Terry"
"She's too sexy" is a dumb fanrule. You can see where it got us with Bayo. However, "I'd prefer Terry" is not a fanrule. It's personal preference. You're disregarding the opinions of people who would rather see Kyo or Nakoruru or who see Terry as SNK's mascot because they push him forward a lot as a "dumb fanrule". Do you see why that's a hole in your arguments?

Not quite, Nako and Terry have been talked about endlessly, and have been considered numerous times. Mai has basically no support or discussion, when if you take a step back and realize how significant she is, you realize that to gaming as WHOLE and when factoring her CULTURAL IMPACT, she's way more imporant than those two.
... Yes and no. Sure, if you go to SNK-related threads, people talk about Terry and Nakoruru a lot, but in general? The Smash community really sleeps on anything SNK. Look up any predictions. Almost no one predicts Terry or Nakoruru, most people just stick with the more heavily speculated characters right now, like a Resident Evil character or Crash.

Because your sample size is too small for it to be extrapolated. Doubly so if you disregard thins like merch and cosplay and crossovers, and the titles she holds in those areas.
Sure, it's relatively small for a poll, but we have used other fanpolls just as big as a basis for speculation in the past. It's not hard evidence of anything, and I did not present it as such. My goal by presenting the poll was not to say that Terry is a lock because of that poll's results, but to say that Mai isn't a lock. Do you see the difference?

It really doesn't matter if it's from a magazine or not - it's a japanese poll with over a thousand votes where three other characters placed above Mai. That alone is proof enough she's not an obvious pick and that SNK has other iconic characters besides her. That's my point, not what you're assuming my point is.

I did not disregard her merch at any point. I severely recommend you go back and check my posts. Because you're just assuming I'm saying things without me actually saying the words at any point.
 
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DorboDIO

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I know this is most likely not gonna happen but seeing Dante from the Devil May Cry Series (one of my favorite video game characters of all time!) in Smash would be the best day ever!
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Mai is an objective pick given her status as a gaming icon, being regarded up there with the likes of Lara Croft, and Samus, and Chun Li, as one of the most iconic females in gaming, and the fact that she's regarded as the 2nd most iconic character in fighting games, alongside Chun Li, with various Chinese polls and other companies, regarding her as "SNK's most significant character" source for that posted in my previous posts. This holds a lot more weight than a small poll or whatever people here are arguing.
If she was on par with Lara Croft and Samus most people would know who she is, and considering King of Fighters is one of the smaller fighting games I don't think that's the case. (Though this notion could stem from me just not knowing the series very well.)

People said the exact same thing about Bayonetta, who's way more sexual than Mai. Mai has also already been censored for western releases of FF2, and has slightly more tame outfits. Additionally, she has a full model in SNK Heroines that can be rotated in full view (like Smash trophies), and that's a game that was advertised on a Nintendo Direct iirc. Adding the fact that DLC for a game is not rated, and there's hardly an issue in adding her to the Fighter's Pass.
From what I understand, Bayonetta just doesn't swear and takes less clothes off, while Mai's entire idle pose and outfit would have to be changed. And you know how ornery people get when characters are censored like that. EDIT: I could be thinking of someone else, but I'm pretty sure she's the one that hunches over and waves her boobs around.

Personally I don't think we'll be getting any King of Fighters character.
 
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Ornl

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Mai has already appeared in SNK Heroines on the Switch
SNK Heroines isn't Smash Bros the Nintendo Museum, the "Nintendo fresco".
In an interview with Sakurai, he stated that including Bayonetta in the game was not an easy task. He stated that he initially had trouble balancing Bayonetta's sexual nature to fit the games' rating in Japan, as even the slightest sexual exposure would have boosted the games' family rating to a more mature one.

Also there's no reason to consider Smash 4 DLC while picking characters for Ultimate.
I don't know what "realistic during evolution" means. Can you explain?
All third party characters should be different, unique, with different levels of fun, including Sm4sh DLC.
I think that, to differentiate from a sex symbol like Bayonetta, another sex symbol woman whose character has been more realistic sexual proportions between her initial creation and today has more chances. It's a reference to Lara Croft who had made this effort to be more in keeping with current society.
 

TheGuv

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I have a friend who really wants Euden in, to the point of making an entire moveset for him (I even used his moveset in the story I write). It's a shame he's farrrr too late, because from what I understand he's like Corrin in the dragon-shifting abilities but can turn into more than one dragon as well as having an actual personality (sorry corrin mains). Getting him in would again break smash "rules" to a lesser degree bc he'd be the first mobile character.

Maybe Smash 6, should DL be relevent then?
I think the issue with Dragalia Lost is that we don't know if nintendo owns it or not.

For example, we know nintendo owns Astral Chain because Platinum Games confirmed it was a Nintendo IP in an interview, or that Fatal Frame is aparently 1stparty i googled it because nintnedo bought the rights.


But we have absolutely no idea who are the IP holders of Dragalia Lost, and the fact that it has 0 spirits makes me believe it's owned by Cygames.
 

3BitSaurus

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If we get a SNK rep, I really hope its from Metal Slug. I love Metal Slug. Not very good at it, but its so much fun. Plus, they would fit well in Smash.
... I wish, really. Marco and Fio would be my go-to SNK characters. They could even pull a Hero and use four Metal Slug characters as skins, while the moveset could use all of the different character-exclusive melee attacks for some attacks (Argentine Backbreaker would be a great up throw and a great reference to another SNK game, for example).
 

DarthEnderX

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It's not so much "protags" as it is "most recognizable and iconic characters" which in most cases, IS the protag.
How do you know it's "most recognizable and iconic" and not "protags" as, so far, it's been all protags.

I would argue that the most recognizable and iconic DQ character is Slime. But instead, we got a selection of protags.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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I know this is most likely not gonna happen but seeing Dante from the Devil May Cry Series (one of my favorite video game characters of all time!) in Smash would be the best day ever!
Bayonetta with a sword (:p) could be loads of fun. I think he's dis-confirmed though. I think the other CAPCOM owned Platinum characters have also gotten a soft dis-conformation.
 

osby

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SNK Heroines isn't Smash Bros the Nintendo Museum, the "Nintendo fresco".
In an interview with Sakurai, he stated that including Bayonetta in the game was not an easy task. He stated that he initially had trouble balancing Bayonetta's sexual nature to fit the games' rating in Japan, as even the slightest sexual exposure would have boosted the games' family rating to a more mature one.

All third party characters should be different, unique, with different levels of fun, including Sm4sh DLC.
I think that, to differentiate from a sex symbol like Bayonetta, another sex symbol woman whose character has been more realistic sexual proportions between her initial creation and today has more chances. It's a reference to Lara Croft who had made this effort to be more in keeping with current society.
Saying we can't have both Bayo and Mai because they are both sexy is like saying we can't have Hero and Cloud because they are both sword wielding pretty boys originating from JRPGs. Reducing characters to their superficial qualities and then putting arbitrary quotas on them makes no sense.

Also, I don't see how a demon summoning witch fighting with guns is similar to a ninja.
 
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RileyXY1

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Saying we can't have both Bayo and Mai because they are both sexy is like saying we can't have Hero and Cloud because they are both sword wielding pretty boys originating from JRPGs. Reducing characters to their superficial qualities and then putting arbitrary quotas on them makes no sense.

Also, I don't see how a demon summoning with fighting witch guns is similar to a ninja.
It's mostly because Mai is even more sexualized than Bayonetta and as explained above Sakurai was afraid of elevating the game's rating in Japan when he added Bayo. Mai would have to have her entire outfit and idle pose changed in order to get in.
 
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Nquoid

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In the posts I made on the last page I offered up numerous sources where people qualified her as a gaming icon, and SNK's mascot. Additionally, said links also have sources to her once again being qualified as the most popular character in cosplay, citing examples such as character exclusive contests in Asia. Additionally, I showed how she's the most crossed over character in gaming. I think all of those sources are way more valid sources that a small poll with a very narrow voting pool that only seemed to target a specific group of people. Not quite something you can extrapolate, especially considering that Mai, once again moves the most merchandise. A quick search on google or any other platform will show you that she has TONS of merch, far more than any other SNK character, being a popular figurine, with numerous different versions, and arguably far more than most female characters in gaming. Mai's status as a gaming icon, and popularity are undeniable. I'm not invested in this conversation enough to go around digging for numbers of EXACTLY how much merch she moves, or how many different products she's got, etc... (if those even exist), but just looking into the character, reading about her, seeing all the merch she pulls up, seeing how she's recognized and popular outside of her own franchise, and considering that she's been titled as the most popular character in cosplay, and the most crossed over in gaming by people who WOULD have sources on all this, I'd say that's more than enough to admit that yeah, she stands well above the rest of the SNK characters. It's just mountains and mountains of evidence. It's common sense my dude. People are gonna cross over the character that's most popular. If Terry was the most popular character, he'd be seeing the most crossover appearances, same way Ryu does over Chun Li, but for SNK, it's Mai that's heads and heels above the rest of the SNK cast in crossover and guest appearances. How anyone could argue against this evidence is beyond me.

Idk how that classifies as "baseless proof" when it stares at you right in the face.

Also, a google search of Mai Shiranui brings up Mai Shiranui, not some Daganrompa character, idk where you're pulling this from, but it sounds like a case of "well this isn't my experience, therefore it's not true."
The post you're talking about was mostly a copy paste of the wikipedia page. Which didn't make some of the assertions that you've made. Like "most cross-overed character of all time". I have googled that and I can find literally nothing that backs that claim up. But also seems kind of irrelevant. In terms of crossovers for both Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. Slime and Chocobos have appeared in more titles, but they're not the playable reps for their franchises. I'm not arguing that Mai isn't popular. All you're doing is saying things without any real sources to back them up, and then going after people who have sources and saying that they're worthless.

Also a lot of the games you listed are mobile anime ***** girl games. Which, forgive me, I don't think are quite as legit as some of the other games that SNK characters have crossed over with, including Mai herself.

Also here is a picture of the Guinness Book of World Records with the claim I made about Junko. Again, I am coming here with receipts for what I'm claiming
 
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SimonferSmash

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Since we're on the topic of possible SNK reps that could make it in, I've been all for Nakoruru as of late.

She would make perfect sense too, considering she's essentially a poster girl for SNK, even more popular than the main protagonist of Samurai Shodown.

Also helps that the series had a recent revival that's been doing well from what I've heard.

Last but not least, she would offer interesting mechanics what with her summoning a hawk and wolf to aid her in fighting.
 
D

Deleted member

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We might not get an SNK character at all.
True. I never said we would.

But when I stop to think of gaming icons, like genuine gaming icons still not on the roster, I struggle to think of many, and Mai is one of the few still remaining. I mean, from there we got, what? Doomguy, Master Chief, Ryu Hyabusa... There's not many left, and Doomguy and Chief have a lot standing in their way. Chief already getting bested by Banjo, and Doomguy having heavy violence as his most defining trait. Western characters also fall lower on the rungs than Japanese ones I guess Monster Hunter, Leon, Jill, and Dante also make a case. From the Bamco side, any Tekken character is second to Mai, as she's more iconic than any of them remaining fighting game IP characters, Tales of really isn't that iconic, and no Tales character holds a candle to Mai.

She's not a shoe in by any means, but I think there's a very strong case to be made in her favor, as she's one of the few gaming icons left with a reasonable chance of being in the game.

Sure, you can say it's anecdotal, but your original point was that people unanimously ask for her and love her more than any other SNK character.
I never said that. I said that she was the most popular, and I gave more than enough evidence to back up that fact.
Yes, she is popular in Asia and appears in a lot of region-exclusive games and merch, but that is by no means a lock for Mai.
Yes, and the Asian market is more significant than the western one. Not only are the more consumers, but Japan and Japanese developers are more in tune with the trends and demands over here, than what goes on in the west.

This is what I've been trying to say for the past 5 posts or so. Sure, they could go with her. There's nothing really stopping SNK or Nintendo in that regard. But there's nothing stopping them from picking literally any other popular SNK character either.

I think you're creating a "what if" statement for the sake of having an argument, when the most logical option is that they'd go for the most popular character, doubly so given SNK's propernsity for putting her into other crossover, as well as the ridiculous amount of merch she moves and her status as a major female gaming icon. Once again, the argument I'M making is that you're letting your western bias blind you. Just cause you're not aware of how popular the character is in Asia due to region exclusive games, doesn't mean it doesn't matter, or that it doesn't factor in. Tons of trends are born in Asia, that never make it over to the west. Many of those trends affect what developers decide. Mai's popularity in Asia is a HUGE contributing factor for why she'd be chosen. I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who lives in Asia. I'm offering a new POV to people who don't have access to that side of the coin. People are dismissing that due to their own perception of things, but reality is much different on this side of the world.

Mai is VERY popular, and that popularity is not to be underestimated.

Also, "unless you're asking 10s of thousands of people from all over the world and different groups"? Sounds like a fanrule to dismiss fan polls if you ask me.
It's not a fan rule. It's called a "logical fallacy." The use of anectdotal evidence in place for existing evidence is a logical fallacy and not valid in any debate. Sorry.



"She's too sexy" is a dumb fanrule. You can see where it got us with Bayo. However, "I'd prefer Terry" is not a fanrule. It's personal preference. You're disregarding the opinions of people who would rather see Kyo or Nakoruru or who see Terry as SNK's mascot because they push him forward a lot as a "dumb fanrule". Do you see why that's a hole in your arguments?



.
.. Yes and no. Sure, if you go to SNK-related threads, people talk about Terry and Nakoruru a lot, but in general? The Smash community really sleeps on anything SNK. Look up any predictions. Almost no one predicts Terry or Nakoruru, most people just stick with the more heavily speculated characters right now, like a Resident Evil character or Crash.
Again, you're citing a very small sample. What the Smash community speculates is not indicative of the sorts of characters that make it in. No one predicted:

Cloud, Snake, Pac-Man, Ryu, Bayonetta (actually, I did predict that one, and I got called out just the same as I'm getting called out for Mai rn), Yuusha, Joker, etc... and they're all characters that in hindsignt, make a lot of sense. Mai falls under that same group. Her significance and popularity as a female gaming icon is staggering, it's not something people should overlook due to personal bias.


Sure, it's relatively small for a poll, but we have used other fanpolls just as big as a basis for speculation in the past. It's not hard evidence of anything, and I did not present it as such. My goal by presenting the poll was not to say that Terry is a lock because of that poll's results, but to say that Mai isn't a lock. Do you see the difference?
Have you ever taken a statistics class? Your sample cannot be extrapolated as the data is varied enough to represent all the possible groups. It's meaningless, and offers no meaningful evidence outside of "in this one very small poll, Terry got the most votes." Also, I never said she was a lock in. She is however, the character of choice for either fighting game IP, or a female character. I struggle to think of anyone on either side that are as iconic as Mai. Maybe on the female side, characters like Jill, Lara Croft, or even an off the wall pick like Hatsune Miku, or Reimu from Touhou could take a spot, but these are all characters with ridiculous amount of popularity. That's where Mai stands. Chun Li can't get in cause Ryu and Ken, Samus is already in. Who else is left who holds as much weight? Kasumi is a Mai clone.



It really doesn't matter if it's from a magazine or not - it's a japanese poll with over a thousand votes where three other characters placed above Mai. That alone is proof enough she's not an obvious pick and that SNK has other iconic characters besides her. That's my point, not what you're assuming my point is.
See my statement above. Have you taken a statistics class? This data sample isn't varied enough to be extrapolated. It's meaningless.

I did not disregard her merch at any point. I severely recommend you go back and check my posts. Because you're just assuming I'm saying things without me actually saying the words at any point.
You're giving more weight to things that hold no value over things that hold actual value to confirm your own bias that Terry or Nako are more significant than Mai, when there is significantly more evidence to support the opposite.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
If she was on par with Lara Croft and Samus most people would know who she is, and considering King of Fighters is one of the smaller fighting games I don't think that's the case. (Though this notion could stem from me just not knowing the series very well.)
Just cause you don't know who she is, doesn't mean other people don't. ESPECIALLY IN ASIA, which is the crux of the whole argument. What ASIA WANTS/LIKES/PREFERS/THINKS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What the west thinks, 9x out of 10.

The post you're talking about was mostly a copy paste of the wikipedia page. Which didn't make some of the assertions that you've made. Like "most cross-overed character of all time". I have googled that and I can find literally nothing that backs that claim up. But also seems kind of irrelevant. In terms of crossovers for both Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. Slime and Chocobos have appeared in more titles, but they're not the playable reps for their franchises. I'm not arguing that Mai isn't popular. All you're doing is saying things without any real sources to back them up, and then going after people who have sources and saying that they're worthless.

Also a lot of the games you listed are mobile anime ***** girl games. Which, forgive me, I don't think are quite as legit as some of the other games that SNK characters have crossed over with, including Mai herself.

Also here is a picture of the Guinness Book of World Records with the claim I made about Junko. Again, I am coming here with receipts for what I'm claiming

Oh, I see what you mean now.

Well this is from her official Wiki, sources all accounted for:

Mai Shiranui (and other KOF characters) became especially popular among the young people in Hong Kong during the late 1990s, when their character design impacted on local youth culture, including the so-called 'MK look' that "has penetrated Hong Kong street fashion, action figures and martial arts comics."[270][271] The character of Mai has become highly popular in the cosplay community around the world,[272][273][274][275][276] including an early work of Francesca Dani.[277] 1UP.com decribed Mai as "everyone's favorite cosplay choice,"[278] GamePro noted her as being "notable for being the favoured costume choice for cosplay attention-floozies,"[279] and eldiario.es called her and Chun-Li "true icons of cosplay."[280] Her popularity among Chinese cosplayers increased after Mai's addition to Kings of Glory.[281] Mai was a subject of cosplay by Yuuri Mori****a, a Japanese booth companion turned a gravure idol,[282][11] and many mainland Chinese and Taiwanese models, actresses and singers.[NOTE 5] The host of Chinese version of the TV show Cybernet between 2011-2012 was too dressed as Mai Shiranui.[310][311] Kotaku's Brian Ashcraft noted in 2012, "In Asia—especially China and Taiwan—models keep popping [up] in non-gaming related events," arguing that rather than showing a following for the King of Fighters games, the character became popular because "the outfit is skimpy and revealing and has become a uniform of sorts."[312] Singaporean pop-culture site Lollipop commented: "[The] Mai Shiranui outfit demands a special kind of physique, which is probably why it seems to be the go-to cosplay of models."[313] In the West, British entertainer Cheryl Cole appeared in a Mai-inspired costume on her 2009 television special Cheryl Cole's Night In.[314][315] Mai has additionally been depicted in dōjinshi fan comics (often erotic)[316] and other fan productions, as well as in unofficial Japanese adult films.[317][318][NOTE 6]

I would argue she took that title from Mai, who's existed far longer, and considering that record is from 2016.
 

Ornl

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Saying we can't have both Bayo and Mai because they are both sexy is like saying we can't have Hero and Cloud because they are both sword wielding pretty boys originating from JRPGs. Reducing characters to their superficial qualities and then putting arbitrary quotas on them makes no sense.
No, it's different, because there are 8 different men to propose diversity, while there is only one woman currently. If 2/2 of the third party women are sexualized, I think it could affect the image of Nintendo.
 

3BitSaurus

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True. I never said we would.

But when I stop to think of gaming icons, like genuine gaming icons still not on the roster, I struggle to think of many, and Mai is one of the few still remaining. I mean, from there we got, what? Doomguy, Master Chief, Ryu Hyabusa... There's not many left, and Doomguy and Chief have a lot standing in their way. Chief already getting bested by Banjo, and Doomguy having heavy violence as his most defining trait. Western characters also fall lower on the rungs than Japanese ones I guess Monster Hunter, Leon, Jill, and Dante also make a case. From the Bamco side, any Tekken character is second to Mai, as she's more iconic than any of them remaining fighting game IP characters, Tales of really isn't that iconic, and no Tales character holds a candle to Mai.

She's not a shoe in by any means, but I think there's a very strong case to be made in her favor, as she's one of the few gaming icons left with a reasonable chance of being in the game.

I never said that. I said that she was the most popular, and I gave more than enough evidence to back up that fact.

Yes, and the Asian market is more significant than the western one. Not only are the more consumers, but Japan and Japanese developers are more in tune with the trends and demands over here, than what goes on in the west.

I think you're creating a "what if" statement for the sake of having an argument, when the most logical option is that they'd go for the most popular character, doubly so given SNK's propernsity for putting her into other crossover, as well as the ridiculous amount of merch she moves and her status as a major female gaming icon. Once again, the argument I'M making is that you're letting your western bias blind you. Just cause you're not aware of how popular the character is in Asia due to region exclusive games, doesn't mean it doesn't matter, or that it doesn't factor in. Tons of trends are born in Asia, that never make it over to the west. Many of those trends affect what developers decide. Mai's popularity in Asia is a HUGE contributing factor for why she'd be chosen. I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who lives in Asia. I'm offering a new POV to people who don't have access to that side of the coin. People are dismissing that due to their own perception of things, but reality is much different on this side of the world.

Mai is VERY popular, and that popularity is not to be underestimated.

It's not a fan rule. It's called a "logical fallacy." The use of anectdotal evidence in place for existing evidence is a logical fallacy and not valid in any debate. Sorry.

Again, you're citing a very small sample. What the Smash community speculates is not indicative of the sorts of characters that make it in. No one predicted:

Cloud, Snake, Pac-Man, Ryu, Bayonetta (actually, I did predict that one, and I got called out just the same as I'm getting called out for Mai rn), Yuusha, Joker, etc... and they're all characters that in hindsignt, make a lot of sense. Mai falls under that same group. Her significance and popularity as a female gaming icon is staggering, it's not something people should overlook due to personal bias.

Have you ever taken a statistics class? Your sample cannot be extrapolated as the data is varied enough to represent all the possible groups. It's meaningless, and offers no meaningful evidence outside of "in this one very small poll, Terry got the most votes." Also, I never said she was a lock in. She is however, the character of choice for either fighting game IP, or a female character. I struggle to think of anyone on either side that are as iconic as Mai. Maybe on the female side, characters like Jill, Lara Croft, or even an off the wall pick like Hatsune Miku, or Reimu from Touhou could take a spot, but these are all characters with ridiculous amount of popularity. That's where Mai stands. Chun Li can't get in cause Ryu and Ken, Samus is already in. Who else is left who holds as much weight? Kasumi is a Mai clone.

See my statement above. Have you taken a statistics class? This data sample isn't varied enough to be extrapolated. It's meaningless.

You're giving more weight to things that hold no value over things that hold actual value to confirm your own bias that Terry or Nako are more significant than Mai, when there is significantly more evidence to support the opposite.
... Except you're arbitrarily deciding what has value and what has not. Which shows your own bias in and of itself. And again, you keep saying I'm denying Mai's popularity in Asia, which I never did. At all.

Your sources for her being "the most popular character from SNK" could also be dismissed in a similar manner, as it was just copypasted from Wikipedia. Arguably even less reliable than anecdotal evidence, because the poll at least has some data to back it up.

... Aaah, you know what? I'm done with this discussion. This is clearly not going anywhere nor helping speculation in any manner. You're clearly misrepresenting my points and calling me biased... while using your own bias as proof. Neither of us will budge, so it's best we move topics.

So, how do you guys feel about other western characters? I'm cautiously hopeful for Crash, but years and years of waiting for Banjo taught me to not expect anything.
 

RileyXY1

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Joined
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Messages
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... Except you're arbitrarily deciding what has value and what has not. Which shows your own bias in and of itself. And again, you keep saying I'm denying Mai's popularity in Asia, which I never did. At all.

Your sources for her being "the most popular character from SNK" could also be dismissed in a similar manner, as it was just copypasted from Wikipedia. Arguably even less reliable than anecdotal evidence, because the poll at least has some data to back it up.

... Aaah, you know what? I'm done with this discussion. This is clearly not going anywhere nor helping speculation in any manner. You're clearly misrepresenting my points and calling me biased... while using your own bias as proof. Neither of us will budge, so it's best we move topics.

So, how do you guys feel about other western characters? I'm cautiously hopeful for Crash, but years and years of waiting for Banjo taught me to not expect anything.
We could see more western characters, especially considering companies such as Ubisoft and Bethesda have heavily associated themselves with Nintendo lately.
 
D

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No, it's different, because there are 8 different men to propose diversity, while there is only one woman currently. If 2/2 of the third party women are sexualized, I think it could affect the image of Nintendo.
Japan's sensibilities toward that sort of nonsense are significantly different than the West. They don't see sexuality as "toxic" or something to shy away from, with half naked girls showing up in kids manga all the time.

... Except you're arbitrarily deciding what has value and what has not. Which shows your own bias in and of itself. And again, you keep saying I'm denying Mai's popularity in Asia, which I never did. At all.

Your sources for her being "the most popular character from SNK" could also be dismissed in a similar manner, as it was just copypasted from Wikipedia. Arguably even less reliable than anecdotal evidence, because the poll at least has some data to back it up.

... Aaah, you know what? I'm done with this discussion. This is clearly not going anywhere nor helping speculation in any manner. You're clearly misrepresenting my points and calling me biased... while using your own bias as proof. Neither of us will budge, so it's best we move topics.

So, how do you guys feel about other western characters? I'm cautiously hopeful for Crash, but years and years of waiting for Banjo taught me to not expect anything.
All the sources on the Wiki article are cited, feel free to click on them to follow them up.
 

RileyXY1

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Japan's sensibilities toward that sort of nonsense are significantly different than the West. They don't see sexuality as "toxic" or something to shy away from, with half naked girls showing up in kids manga all the time.
They shouldn't think that the whole world's sensibilities are like Japan's, because that would get them into a lot of controversy in the west.
 
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Nquoid

Smash Ace
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
584
Have you ever taken a statistics class? Your sample cannot be extrapolated as the data is varied enough to represent all the possible groups. It's meaningless, and offers no meaningful evidence outside of "in this one very small poll, Terry got the most votes." Also, I never said she was a lock in. She is however, the character of choice for either fighting game IP, or a female character. I struggle to think of anyone on either side that are as iconic as Mai. Maybe on the female side, characters like Jill, Lara Croft, or even an off the wall pick like Hatsune Miku, or Reimu from Touhou could take a spot, but these are all characters with ridiculous amount of popularity. That's where Mai stands. Chun Li can't get in cause Ryu and Ken, Samus is already in. Who else is left who holds as much weight? Kasumi is a Mai clone.

See my statement above. Have you taken a statistics class? This data sample isn't varied enough to be extrapolated. It's meaningless.
If you did a poll of all owners of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate for which was the most popular character, you'd only have to poll 385 of them for 5% level margin of error result. Obviously a fan poll in a SNK magazine will be inherently biased, but if anything, you're polling the exact right group of people to find out who the most popular SNK character is.

Oh, I see what you mean now.

Well this is from her official Wiki, sources all accounted for:

Mai Shiranui (and other KOF characters) became especially popular among the young people in Hong Kong during the late 1990s, when their character design impacted on local youth culture, including the so-called 'MK look' that "has penetrated Hong Kong street fashion, action figures and martial arts comics."[270][271] The character of Mai has become highly popular in the cosplay community around the world,[272][273][274][275][276] including an early work of Francesca Dani.[277] 1UP.com decribed Mai as "everyone's favorite cosplay choice,"[278] GamePro noted her as being "notable for being the favoured costume choice for cosplay attention-floozies,"[279] and eldiario.es called her and Chun-Li "true icons of cosplay."[280] Her popularity among Chinese cosplayers increased after Mai's addition to Kings of Glory.[281] Mai was a subject of cosplay by Yuuri Mori****a, a Japanese booth companion turned a gravure idol,[282][11] and many mainland Chinese and Taiwanese models, actresses and singers.[NOTE 5] The host of Chinese version of the TV show Cybernet between 2011-2012 was too dressed as Mai Shiranui.[310][311] Kotaku's Brian Ashcraft noted in 2012, "In Asia—especially China and Taiwan—models keep popping [up] in non-gaming related events," arguing that rather than showing a following for the King of Fighters games, the character became popular because "the outfit is skimpy and revealing and has become a uniform of sorts."[312] Singaporean pop-culture site Lollipop commented: "[The] Mai Shiranui outfit demands a special kind of physique, which is probably why it seems to be the go-to cosplay of models."[313] In the West, British entertainer Cheryl Cole appeared in a Mai-inspired costume on her 2009 television special Cheryl Cole's Night In.[314][315] Mai has additionally been depicted in dōjinshi fan comics (often erotic)[316] and other fan productions, as well as in unofficial Japanese adult films.[317][318][NOTE 6]

I would argue she took that title from Mai, who's existed far longer, and considering that record is from 2016.
I think the argument you're making is that in a lot of places she has actually transcended the games she originated from. Which can probably be agreed upon. She actually seems to have some kind of mainstream fashion appeal in a lot of places. But then I'd query if people who are copying her style are actually aware of her. Like if someone were to ask Cheryl Cole if she thought of Mai Shiranui as a style icon, I don't she be able to regale with a glowing tale of how she found the character. She's a style icon in Asia and that has been aped by the west. (Also whilst I'm glad that women cosplaying her of their volition actually makes the sexuality more palatable for Smash, the fact that so much fan work is dojinshi and JAV is a big ol' yikes from me).

Basically what it seems like we've discovered is t that she's massively popular in the wider world but maybe not most popular character of people who play those games. Whether or not you think Smash should cater to fans of a franchise or whether or not it should angle for broad appeal and bring in as a wide array of new players as possible is up for debate.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Just cause you don't know who she is, doesn't mean other people don't. ESPECIALLY IN ASIA, which is the crux of the whole argument. What ASIA WANTS/LIKES/PREFERS/THINKS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What the west thinks, 9x out of 10.
What I meant was that my statement was more assumption based and could be inaccurate, not that it was 100% pure bias. From what I understand, the King of Fighters series isn't really all that relevant at this point in time, but it could also be a Banjo & Kazooie/Spyro the Dragon/Crash Bandicoot thing where the series is really important but didn't stay alive that long.
Japan's sensibilities toward that sort of nonsense are significantly different than the West. They don't see sexuality as "toxic" or something to shy away from, with half naked girls showing up in kids manga all the time.
True but each character still has to adhere to each country's age rating policies (If Super Smash Bros. Ultimate want's to keep its E10+ rating). That includes the west where the idea of having erotic material on store shelves that children could easily access them to be horrific.
 
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D

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They shouldn't think that the whole world's sensibilities are like Japan's, because that would get them into a lot of controversy in the west.
Maybe it's the west who's backwards and should learn to adapt to Japan, rather than the other way around. As far as I see it, Japan is a model society considering the quality of the standard of living here.

I don't see why Japan should have to adopt ideologies that have ultimately proved destructive and divisive in the West.
 

osby

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No, it's different, because there are 8 different men to propose diversity, while there is only one woman currently. If 2/2 of the third party women are sexualized, I think it could affect the image of Nintendo.
Currently, 1/1 of the female third party fighters are sexualized. That's the same with 2/2.

If Nintendo was so afraid of getting associated with scantily-clad women, they wouldn't add Bayo or fund her games in the first place.
 

RileyXY1

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Currently, 1/1 of the female third party fighters are sexualized. That's the same with 2/2.

If Nintendo was so afraid of getting associated with scantily-clad women, they wouldn't add Bayo or fund her games in the first place.
However, Bayo is easier to censor than Mai is, hence how she got in. Let's just kill this argument because it's going nowhere.
 
D

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If you did a poll of all owners of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate for which was the most popular character, you'd only have to poll 385 of them for 5% level margin of error result. Obviously a fan poll in a SNK magazine will be inherently biased, but if anything, you're polling the exact right group of people to find out who the most popular SNK character is.



I think the argument you're making is that in a lot of places she has actually transcended the games she originated from. Which can probably be agreed upon. She actually seems to have some kind of mainstream fashion appeal in a lot of places. But then I'd query if people who copying her style are actually aware of her. Like if some were to ask Cheryl Cole if she though of Mai Shiranui as a style icon, I don't she be able to regale with a glowing tale of how she found the character. She's a style icon in Asia and that has been aped by the west. (Also whilst I'm glad that women cosplaying her of their volition actually makes the sexuality more palatable for Smash, the fact that so much fan work is dojinshi and JAV is a big ol' yikes from me).

Basically what it seems like we've discovered is t that she's massively popular in the wider world but maybe not most popular character of people who play those games. Whether or not you think Smash should cater to fans of a franchise or whether or not it should angle for broad appeal and bring in as a wide array of new players as possible is up for debate.
The point is that she's a gaming icon, and is regarded a SNK's most significant character by numerous people, especially in Asia, which is the point I'm making considering people wanna argue that Terry or Nako have extended beyond gaming to anywhere near the level Mai has.

What I meant was that my statement was more assumption based and could be inaccurate, not that it was 100% pure bias. From what I understand, the King of Fighters series isn't really all that relevant at this point in time, but it could also be a Banjo & Kazooie/Spyro the Dragon/Crash Bandicoot thing where the series is really important but didn't stay alive that long.
This goes beyond KOF as a francise. Like Banjo for Rare, this is a case of Mai for SNK, which IS a signigicant company in Japanese gaming. Additionally, the is about Mai herself as a character, who still stands as a gaming icon despite the decline of KoF as a franchise.

True but each character still has to adhere to each country's age rating policies (If Super Smash Bros. Ultimate want's to keep its E10+ rating). That includes the west where the idea of having erotic material on store shelves that children could easily access them to be horrific.
It's a DLC character, which is a separate purchase that requires a credit card. Additionally, nothing saying the western version of the character can't be tamed a bit more. ADDITIONALLY, the same kids who would play Smash saw SNK Heroines advertised on a Nintendo direct that had Smash in it. A game which btw, despite its sexual content being far beyond Mai's normal outfit, still only earned a T rating in the West. You're acting as if Mai is so lewd she'd be regarded as mature content only, when that's hardly the case.
 

osby

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Maybe it's the west who's backwards and should learn to adapt to Japan, rather than the other way around. As far as I see it, Japan is a model society considering the quality of the standard of living here.

I don't see why Japan should have to adopt ideologies that have ultimately proved destructive and divisive in the West.
This really reads like you're ignoring Japan's deep cultural issues, especially considering how much of a problem sexism is in there.

However, Bayo is easier to censor than Mai is, hence how she got in. Let's just kill this argument because it's going nowhere.
I don't think Mai has any chance. I just think "we already have a hot gal" is a stupid argument against new female characters.
 
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