Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[ze9]

As soon as I heard that Ridley was finally playable in Smash Bros, I was so happy I couldn't ask for anyone else as he was my most wanted character. Afterwards we got Simon, Dark Samus (which also made me happy), King K Rool, Joker, and #@%*ING BANJO & KAZOOIE!!! Sakurai is spoiling us with so many fan requests that it would feel wrong to ask for more.

I would agree with you if I didn't feel my heart breaking everytime that I open the CSS and I'm reminded that Dixie is not there

 

[Nquoid]

Days of Ruin was anything but. If that were the case, IS would at least have the confidence to release the game in Japan which they didn't.

And speaking of which, DoR was actually the rebound point for Advance Wars. Coming off the commercial failure of Dual Strike, Days of Ruin really picked the series back up at gave it a new lease on life. Even if it didn't do nearly as well as Awakening. But like many Nintendo games around that time, crap marketing really took it's toll on the game.

I remember Days of Ruin got leaked by a European release schedule at E3 2007. I don't think it was even mentioned during that years press conference. It got practically no marketing but still sold better than Dual Strike. What I meant was that they tried to really revamp the art style and make it more appealing to Western audiences. But none of the Advance Wars sold enough really to become super viable. Despite all four of those games being some of the best reasons to own a GBA/DS

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I’ve said it before, and I’ll continue to say it; the roster feels incomplete to me without Dixie Kong. Don’t get me wrong, I love this roster and the characters they’ve added to Ultimate, but a lot of the fighters are more so nice bonuses for me rather than characters I feel should be in. The only other characters that I think are on par with her are Toad, Bandana Dee, and Waluigi.

With Toad he at least is involved in Peach’s moveset which is more than pretty much every other non playable character can say, Bandana Dee not being playable is more understandable because he only cemented himself as a really important Kirby character in more recent years, and Waluigi is... Waluigi lol.

Dixie was he secondary main protagonist and THE main protagonist of two of the best selling SNES games of all time; that’s kind of a big deal imo. She was significant enough to make playable appearances in several Mario spinoff titles, and was also made relevant with the release of the beloved Tropical Freeze. Seems like she’s always missed the mark due to unfortunate circumstances.

 

[Ura]

I remember Days of Ruin got leaked by a European release schedule at E3 2007. I don't think it was even mentioned during that years press conference. It got practically no marketing but still sold better than Dual Strike. What I meant was that they tried to really revamp the art style and make it more appealing to Western audiences. But none of the Advance Wars sold enough really to become super viable. Despite all four of those games being some of the best reasons to own a GBA/DS

Well not really. The GBA games were successful enough for IS to make AW their first project on the DS and even after Dual Strike, they had faith in doing DoR which picked back the series up.

It wasn't doing well back then but at the same time FE was also doing crap numbers as well. As a matter of fact, Advance Wars did better numbers than Fire Emblem in places outside Japan. FE hit it big with Awakening and since then, AW has never had another chance despite having a positive sales trajectory.

And now we know that the demand for games in the style of AW is still strong as evident with Wargroove. IS would be dumb to not give the series another go especially considering how AW and FE are different enough to not be competing against each other (unlike F-Zero/Mario Kart).

 

[YsDisciple]

I’ve said it before, and I’ll continue to say it; the roster feels incomplete to me without Dixie Kong. Don’t get me wrong, I love this roster and the characters they’ve added to Ultimate, but a lot of the fighters are more so nice bonuses for me rather than characters I feel should be in. The only other characters that I think are on par with her are Toad, Bandana Dee, and Waluigi.

With Toad he at least is involved in Peach’s moveset which is more than pretty much every other non playable character can say, Bandana Dee not being playable is more understandable because he only cemented himself as a really important Kirby character in more recent years, and Waluigi is... Waluigi lol.

Dixie was he secondary main protagonist and THE main protagonist of two of the best selling SNES games of all time; that’s kind of a big deal imo. She was significant enough to make playable appearances in several Mario spinoff titles, and was also made relevant with the release of the beloved Tropical Freeze. Seems like she’s always missed the mark due to unfortunate circumstances.

True. Dixie could have been introduced as a base character (Diddy hybrid echo) free.

In regards to Advance Wars (AW); the first game I ever played of the series was Days of Ruin and I gotta say, that game was dope. The soundtrack was great, the plot, the characters, everything! Oh, and the Trial Missions, WHOO! I do hope Nintendo brings back that franchise; whether remaking the original GBA Advance Wars (which would be the likeliest step), or doing another original story. Though... I guess remake would be best.

 

[Nquoid]

I’ve said it before, and I’ll continue to say it; the roster feels incomplete to me without Dixie Kong. Don’t get me wrong, I love this roster and the characters they’ve added to Ultimate, but a lot of the fighters are more so nice bonuses for me rather than characters I feel should be in. The only other characters that I think are on par with her are Toad, Bandana Dee, and Waluigi.

With Toad he at least is involved in Peach’s moveset which is more than pretty much every other non playable character can say, Bandana Dee not being playable is more understandable because he only cemented himself as a really important Kirby character in more recent years, and Waluigi is... Waluigi lol.

Dixie was he secondary main protagonist and THE main protagonist of two of the best selling SNES games of all time; that’s kind of a big deal imo. She was significant enough to make playable appearances in several Mario spinoff titles, and was also made relevant with the release of the beloved Tropical Freeze. Seems like she’s always missed the mark due to unfortunate circumstances.

I've seen a lot of sentiment that some Dixie fans would be upset if she got put in as an echo. But if she got put in as a wholly unique fighter, then Donkey Kong would be the fourth best represented franchise in the entire game. Obviously I definitely want her in the game, but four characters with unique move sets would put DK on a level with Fire Emblem, Mario and Pokemon.

I'm sure people would prefer her as a unique fighter but would people be satisfied with an echo (or at the most a clone like Isabelle is of Villager)

 

[KingBroly]

Home Run Contest is probably the last mode we get. I could see them making that Classic Mode thing (the run away level) an endless mode, though.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

True. Dixie could have been introduced as a base character (Diddy hybrid echo) free.

I've seen a lot of sentiment that some Dixie fans would be upset if she got put in as an echo. But if she got put in as a wholly unique fighter, then Donkey Kong would be the fourth best represented franchise in the entire game. Obviously I definitely want her in the game, but four characters with unique move sets would put DK on a level with Fire Emblem, Mario and Pokemon.

I'm sure people would prefer her as a unique fighter but would people be satisfied with an echo (or at the most a clone like Isabelle is of Villager)

Yeah, I personally believe Dixie wouldn’t work well as Diddy’s echo fighter. I also feel like if Sakurai believed Dixie would have worked as an echo fighter he would have done it. I do think they could make her a “semi clone” of Diddy though.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Besides which may be the two remaining DLC fighters in the Fighters Pass, I'm also curious on what could the possible additional modes (if any) will come along with the upcoming fighters (especially the already confirmed Hero and Banjo-Kazooie). Following the initial pitch of SSBU in its first formal reveal, ("Everyone is here!"), what if the same idea will hold true with game modes (or most of them at least)? With Hero, I could see something like an HD (or more fleshed out) Smash Run mode added within in a potential Ver. 4.0. A Subspace 2 emissary could be pushing it too far and, WoL already is the game's single player campaign. As for Banjo-Kazooie in a Ver. 5.0 could come along with either a "Break the Targets" mode (similar to the N64 one), or the triumphant return of "Board the Platforms"; honoring the platform genre of games. Other potential modes they could add with any of the remaining two characters could be a new FPS mode/mini-game (VR Mode could have been implemented to test out the first person perspective on the game), which would then be appropriate if the fighter packed into that version comes from a FPS type game. And maybe a puzzle type mini game could be the final mode (something like Tetris or Puyo-Puyo). What do ya'll think?

Also... I still can't believe it. in one same game.

Smash Run would be dope. Not expecting it though.

I've seen a lot of sentiment that some Dixie fans would be upset if she got put in as an echo. But if she got put in as a wholly unique fighter, then Donkey Kong would be the fourth best represented franchise in the entire game. Obviously I definitely want her in the game, but four characters with unique move sets would put DK on a level with Fire Emblem, Mario and Pokemon.

I'm sure people would prefer her as a unique fighter but would people be satisfied with an echo (or at the most a clone like Isabelle is of Villager)

To be fair, Donkey Kong's Nintendo's fourth best-selling series after Mario, Pokemon and Zelda. I'd say it warrants that kind of respect.

Personally though, I don't see it as a per-series basis but as a per-character basis, and I think Sakurai sees it that way too.

(I'd be alright with Dixie being labeled as an Echo if they did her justice like Ken, Echo Fighters are quite the catch-all term really)

 

[SKX31]

Yeah, this is kind of where I’m at too. I don’t even think a second Fighters Pass would necessarily have characters I’d like to see; even if it’s all first party, how do I know it’d have Dixie, Bandana Dee, etc. and not more directly promotional picks instead? And as others have said, I’m not crazy about dropping another 25 bucks to get the whole roster.

It just feels like eating too much chocolate cake in a row at a certain point. I’d like a break eventually.

On the other hand, Nintendo and Sakurai have lots of flexibility - and both of them likely know it. Also, Smash 4's and Ultimate's situations are a bit different I feel. Especially given Corrin's mixed-to-negative reception - I don't think that escaped their notice. Since Sakurai himself was wary about Corrin, I wouldn't be surprised if the reception gave him leverage to say "Okay guys, I was right! Now then, we should work on Ridley and K. Rool."

If Sakurai started planning Ultimate already in late 2015 it's not unreasonable to guess that Sakurai heard rumblings coming out of Nintendo. He would've likely known the Wii U's data - compare that to the Switch even before Ultimate released and DLC began. Since the Switch will stick around for a long time (it will release in China this year), it gives Nintendo and Sakurai the freedom to decide how much DLC. And if multiple passes, how long the breaks will be between passes etc.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a promo pick - but it's more likely to be either a pick pushing movesets further than did (a la , as he's the first Wrestler) or a third party coming to the Switch (Dante would count, as would Master Chief or weirder picks like a LoL rep). Also, I strongly doubt there'd be that many promotional - you could argue that 2 out of 7 Smash 4 DLC characters (Corrin, Bayo) were promotional in some form, but Bayo's case is stretching it a bit. I find it likelier that if Sakurai starts mixing in Nintendo characters he'll lean towards fan demand / what he wants to experiment with more than pure promotional.

 

[StormC]

Smash Run would be amazing just because I could beat up Kremlings as the King himself.

I've seen a lot of sentiment that some Dixie fans would be upset if she got put in as an echo. But if she got put in as a wholly unique fighter, then Donkey Kong would be the fourth best represented franchise in the entire game. Obviously I definitely want her in the game, but four characters with unique move sets would put DK on a level with Fire Emblem, Mario and Pokemon.

I'm sure people would prefer her as a unique fighter but would people be satisfied with an echo (or at the most a clone like Isabelle is of Villager)

DK games sell better than Fire Emblem across the board so I can't say I would have a problem with this.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

DK games sell better than Fire Emblem across the board so I can't say I would have a problem with this.

It’s funny to think that Dixie Kong’s Double Trouble on the SNES alone has sold more than any single Fire Emblem game, and yet...

 

[UberPyro64]

Do you know what I think is complete bs? The term "company reps". People keep saying "oh we have to have these many characters because this company already has this many" but that's total nonsense. We have the third party characters we have because they or their franchise are iconic and/or influential, or because they were highly requested or a combination of the above. Nintendo and Sakurai aren't thinking about the companies themselves outside of where they have to go to get the rights from.

 

[RileyXY1]

Do you know what I think is complete bs? The term "company reps". People keep saying "oh we have to have these many characters because this company already has this many" but that's total nonsense. We have the third party characters we have because they or their franchise are iconic and/or influential, or because they were highly requested or both. Nintendo and Sakurai aren't thinking about the companies themselves outside of where they have to go to get the rights from.

I hate this too. People are just way too obsessed with keeping things balanced.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I hate this too. People are just way too obsessed with keeping things balanced.

I think other than the precedent of companies only getting one fighter per game (discounting CAPCOM since Mega Man was base game while Ryu was DLC) there isn't really much merit to the idea of company reps.


And even then it's a rule easily broken.

 

[KillerCage]

Do you know what I think is complete bs? The term "company reps". People keep saying "oh we have to have these many characters because this company already has this many" but that's total nonsense. We have the third party characters we have because they or their franchise are iconic and/or influential, or because they were highly requested or both. Nintendo and Sakurai aren't thinking about the companies themselves outside of where they have to go to get the rights from.

I would rather have more companies involved in Smash Bros than more characters from the same companies that are already in. That is a reason why I am not a fan of Mii Costume Theory; it feels too safe and it is always possible that not all the costumes released alongside Hero and Banjo & Kazooie will be from Square Enix and Microsoft respectively. I think too many people are sleeping on Google Theory and it is funny that instead of killing it, Hero is keeping this theory afloat. If you tossed out Artorias (whose name is part of Dark Souls DLC) and have Hero take his place, then the two remaining characters on the Fighters' Pass could be Doom Slayer and Ryu Hayabusa. Both of them are owned by companies that don't have fighters and both fit in Color Theory and Trailer just fine. Doom Slayer's color could be orange to represent Hell and Ryu Hayabusa's color could be blue to represent his ninja attire from the NES trilogy which was blue and to quote Gaijin Goomba "real ninja wear blue." As for Trailer Theory, Doom Slayer's trailer could be a sequel to Ridley's trailer while Ryu Hayabusa's could be a sequel to either Simon's or Incineroar's trailers. So for the long post.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think other than the precedent of companies only getting one fighter per game (discounting CAPCOM since Mega Man was base game while Ryu was DLC) there isn't really much merit to the idea of company reps.


And even then it's a rule easily broken.

Funny thing is that it wasn't exactly the case in 4 either. They had to negotiate with Capcom USA for all Street Fighter stuff, whereas they need Capcom Co LTD for all MegaMan content.

They're part of the same overall subset, but different branches. This is probably why they had only 2 songs for DLC, since negotiating with a Western company is not that easy. In fact, Ryu is the first character we have from a Western company specifically. Ken and Banjo are the only other two. Of course, it doesn't mean Street Fighter didn't start in Japan, but who holds the IP is the only relevant thing for negotiations.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I would rather have more companies involved in Smash Bros than more characters from the same companies that are already in. That is a reason why I am not a fan of Mii Costume Theory; it feels too safe and it is always possible that not all the costumes released alongside Hero and Banjo & Kazooie will be from Square Enix and Microsoft respectively. I think too many people are sleeping on Google Theory and it is funny that instead of killing it, Hero is keeping this theory afloat. If you tossed out Artorias (whose name is part of Dark Souls DLC) and have Hero take his place, then the two remaining characters on the Fighters' Pass could be Doom Slayer and Ryu Hayabusa. Both of them are owned by companies that don't have fighters and both fit in Color Theory and Trailer just fine. Doom Slayer's color could be orange to represent Hell and Ryu Hayabusa's color could be blue to represent his ninja attire from the NES trilogy which was blue and to quote Gaijin Goomba "real ninja wear blue." As for Trailer Theory, Doom Slayer's trailer could be a sequel to Ridley's trailer while Ryu Hayabusa's could be a sequel to either Simon's or Incineroar's trailers. So for the long post.

I'm going to side with this.
If I recall correctly, yes, anyone can make an add, BUT, it's helluva expensive, and there are certain permissions that Youtube has to grant you. Meaning if you're not a company relevant to the ad, then you most likely get denied. This last bit I could have misinterpreted, so don't hold me to my word here.

But yeah, Google theory is an interesting case. It came, it was discussed to death, and it left. But I don't think it was ever entirely disproved. It could have been a huge blunder, and the people responsible are probably happy we forgot about it.

 

[Deleted member]

I would rather have more companies involved in Smash Bros than more characters from the same companies that are already in. That is a reason why I am not a fan of Mii Costume Theory; it feels too safe and it is always possible that not all the costumes released alongside Hero and Banjo & Kazooie will be from Square Enix and Microsoft respectively. I think too many people are sleeping on Google Theory and it is funny that instead of killing it, Hero is keeping this theory afloat. If you tossed out Artorias (whose name is part of Dark Souls DLC) and have Hero take his place, then the two remaining characters on the Fighters' Pass could be Doom Slayer and Ryu Hayabusa. Both of them are owned by companies that don't have fighters and both fit in Color Theory and Trailer just fine. Doom Slayer's color could be orange to represent Hell and Ryu Hayabusa's color could be blue to represent his ninja attire from the NES trilogy which was blue and to quote Gaijin Goomba "real ninja wear blue." As for Trailer Theory, Doom Slayer's trailer could be a sequel to Ridley's trailer while Ryu Hayabusa's could be a sequel to either Simon's or Incineroar's trailers. So for the long post.

I really don't put any stock on the google theory for the simple reason that if the Dark Souls DLC was what liked it, why no other characters or words appeared on the results? Its not a bad lineup but I frankly doubt it due to other reasons such as being pretty much the 5ch leak with Hero and Steve being replaced with Artorias and BK.

Plus in the case of any newcomer I would prefer the characters to get their own thing rather than continue from other trailers.

 

[StormC]

I would rather have more companies involved in Smash Bros than more characters from the same companies that are already in. That is a reason why I am not a fan of Mii Costume Theory; it feels too safe and it is always possible that not all the costumes released alongside Hero and Banjo & Kazooie will be from Square Enix and Microsoft respectively. I think too many people are sleeping on Google Theory and it is funny that instead of killing it, Hero is keeping this theory afloat. If you tossed out Artorias (whose name is part of Dark Souls DLC) and have Hero take his place, then the two remaining characters on the Fighters' Pass could be Doom Slayer and Ryu Hayabusa. Both of them are owned by companies that don't have fighters and both fit in Color Theory and Trailer just fine. Doom Slayer's color could be orange to represent Hell and Ryu Hayabusa's color could be blue to represent his ninja attire from the NES trilogy which was blue and to quote Gaijin Goomba "real ninja wear blue." As for Trailer Theory, Doom Slayer's trailer could be a sequel to Ridley's trailer while Ryu Hayabusa's could be a sequel to either Simon's or Incineroar's trailers. So for the long post.

Banjo was a highly speculated character ever since DLC was confirmed. A fake leak guessing Banjo is not notable in any way, especially when said leak didn't have Hero on it.

"If you toss out Artorias and put in Hero it makes perfect sense" is a weird pretzel twist to make the theory work if I ever saw it.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Hero does nothing for Google Theory; he pretty much killed it. Artorias may be DLC for Dark Souls, but he’s still one of the few characters that had the fake ad showing up.

If Google Theory could somehow still be alive, then Hero certainly doesn’t help it; no one had DQ protagonists getting the ad to show up, including Erdrick. The ad was most-likely a troll. There are trolls that do these sorts of things, such as Mariotehplumber.

 

[Koopaul]

I'll admit, there are a lot of things I'd still love to see. A lot of things from Nintendo's diverse history that didn't get much attention that I think should. But I also understand that I shouldn't expect everything. The developers can only do so much and I'm happy with what they gave us. Do I want more? Of course! Who doesn't? But I will happily accept what we got knowing just how much of a miracle this game is already.

Either way. I'm highly leaning on another Namco character. With Namco on the team I will be really surprised if all we get is Pac-Man.

 

[Door Key Pig]

I'll admit, there are a lot of things I'd still love to see. A lot of things from Nintendo's diverse history that didn't get much attention that I think should. But I also understand that I shouldn't expect everything. The developers can only do so much and I'm happy with what they gave us. Do I want more? Of course! Who doesn't? But I will happily accept what we got knowing just how much of a miracle this game is already.

Either way. I'm highly leaning on another Namco character. With Namco on the team I will be really surprised if all we get is Pac-Man.

Seems to be the case for the previous Smash game, its DLC and the base of this Smash game...

I’ve said it before, and I’ll continue to say it; the roster feels incomplete to me without Dixie Kong. Don’t get me wrong, I love this roster and the characters they’ve added to Ultimate, but a lot of the fighters are more so nice bonuses for me rather than characters I feel should be in. The only other characters that I think are on par with her are Toad, Bandana Dee, and Waluigi.

Would it be weird to maybe express similar statement over a Rhythm Paradise character like I've seen at least one other person around here say? We don't know whatever perhaps-viable reason they weren't included in this or the last Smash game (a rhythm mechanic that would have been difficult to implement into a moveset in a way that was balanced for new players and/or a slave to the latency of online play?), but it's kind of weird that a new franchise seemingly considered for a playable character last time, as shown with the Smash Run enemy, emblem data and Gemetsu leak, didn't even get a darn Mii costume in Ultimate when trademark-not-renewed Custom Robo got one...

Speaking of Smash Run, it'd be fabulous to see that return and even more fleshed out in Ultimate, maybe by taking advantage in fighting non-timed KO-able assist trophies (and maybe Darhkon and Galeem puppet fighters) for the enemies. If they couldn't do enemies with unique attack patterns for an adventure mode, something that maybe could have taken a while with the 3DS game development (?), that'd be an easier way to deal with implementing the mode, and that's assuming they totally couldn't just port over existing 3DS enemies with a little more graphical polish to the mode. It'd just be pretty cool to imagine where Smash Run could go assuming it's viable and the Switch is powerful enough.

Beyond that, it'd be a waste to not have a Boss Rush mode to play on its own. They could incorporate the Classic mode mural again, and even do WoL's

Spoiler

Master Hand controlling segment as the penultimate mini-game of the mode! That could work, right?

Like, some kind of alternate Classic mode like thing would be much appreciated, seeing as All-Star's its Mob Smash thing now...

They could also put the scrapped minigame maps to use, even as just alternate rotation in Classic mode, and of course then there's Home-Run Contest (as much as I'm not personally pining for its return...) and Break the Targets/Board the Platforms, which could totally be a Stage Builder thing where people can make their own and share them online, getting around the "making unique ones for everyone of the 80 fighters" thing in a fun way.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I'd say that we've got a good 90% of everything Nintendo in the appropriate form in Ultimate.

The things that we're missing/are in the wrong form I'd say are (examples in brackets)

1. Assist Trophies that aught to be characters (Waluigi, Ashley, Krystal, Lyn)
2. Content from the late WiiU/Early Switch era (No Tropical Freeze Stage or playable Rex /Pyra)
3. A lot of Nintendo's American made content (StarTropics, Kid Icarus: Myths and Monsters and Geist)
4. The unported classic stages (All except Icicle Mountain, it can die in global warming)
5. Various extra modes from past smash games (Break the Targets, Home Run Contest ect.)
6. Advance Wars in it's entirety. It got Raving Rabbids by the new Fire Emblem
7. Spirits lacking any sort of blurb (Even just add it to the Fighter Spirits so it's on par with 64)

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I'd say that we've got a good 90% of everything Nintendo in the appropriate form in Ultimate.

The things that we're missing/are in the wrong form I'd say are (examples in brackets)

1. Assist Trophies that aught to be characters (Waluigi, Ashley, Krystal, Lyn)
2. Content from the late WiiU/Early Switch era (No Tropical Freeze Stage or playable Rex /Pyra)
3. A lot of Nintendo's American made content (StarTropics, Kid Icarus: Myths and Monsters and Geist)
4. The unported classic stages (All except Icicle Mountain, it can die in global warming)
5. Various extra modes from past smash games (Break the Targets, Home Run Contest ect.)
6. Advance Wars in it's entirety. It got Raving Rabbids by the new Fire Emblem
7. Spirits lacking any sort of blurb (Even just add it to the Fighter Spirits so it's on par with 64)

Isn’t Eternal Darkness American made? There’s an Alexandra Roivas Spirit

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Isn’t Eternal Darkness American made? There’s an Alexandra Roivas Spirit

That's true, hence why I said "a lot of" rather than all of it.
The absense of Startropics is the most confusing given how NOA still pushes it as an NES classic.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's true, hence why I said "a lot of" rather than all of it.
The absense of Startropics is the most confusing given how NOA still pushes it as an NES classic.

Sakurai's team mainly came up with the Spirits. He only went over them once the compilation was finished. It's quite possible they just didn't think of the game series, as it's not really that known in Japan.

 

[Arcadenik]

I...I can't lie, if Bond really did get in, I'd lose it. The GoldenEye N64 theme hitting would make me so happy. I know "no fourth parties" but I can't help it. It'd be so completely nuts and so so fun.

I’d hype too... especially if it’s the James Bond from GoldenEye 007 N64 game (Pierce Brosnan). And it would finally take away the “no fourth parties” ammunition detractors love to use against Team Rocket Meowth and Captain N.

 

[Opossum]

I’d hype too... especially if it’s the James Bond from GoldenEye 007 N64 game (Pierce Brosnan). And it would finally take away the “no fourth parties” ammunition detractors love to use against Team Rocket Meowth and Captain N.

I mean in fairness it never meant anything for Team Rocket Meowth. He's fully owned by Nintendo.

Captain N is a bit more dubious though.

 

[Arcadenik]

I mean in fairness it never meant anything for Team Rocket Meowth. He's fully owned by Nintendo.

Team Rocket Meowth, unlike a generic Meowth, is a package deal. Team Rocket Meowth comes with Jessie and James and their Poison-type Pokemon.

Detractors say “no fourth parties” to Team Rocket Meowth because of Jessie and James. Jessie and James have been in video games like Pokémon Yellow, Pokémon Puzzle League, and Pokémon Let’s Go Pikachu/Eevee.

 

[Opossum]

Team Rocket Meowth, unlike a generic Meowth, is a package deal. Team Rocket Meowth comes with Jessie and James and their Poison-type Pokemon.

Detractors say “no fourth parties” to Team Rocket Meowth because of Jessie and James. Jessie and James have been in video games like Pokémon Yellow, Pokémon Puzzle League, and Pokémon Let’s Go Pikachu/Eevee.

Yeah but I mean, once again, Jessie and James are absolutely fair game since they're fully owned by Nintendo just as much as every other Pokémon character is. If the anime made a difference we wouldn't have all the references to Ash that we do, we wouldn't have Misty's Melee trophy, and the non-Pikachu Pokémon wouldn't say their names.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean in fairness it never meant anything for Team Rocket Meowth. He's fully owned by Nintendo.

Captain N is a bit more dubious though.

Not really dubious. Captain N was created by Nintendo Power's own team member(who is also a regular Nintendo employee), and Nintendo America literally took control of the character. The only rights DiC has is distribution of the show. There's been absolutely nothing to point out anything that contradicts that Nintendo still owns it. I mean, he's called Captain Nintendo. No way they wouldn't hold onto the rights. The only way they aren't going to is if they never use the character again, but since the show is still being distributed via DVD's, they need to keep the copyright up because of its connections.

"The character Captain N first appeared in Nintendo Power magazine, created by a Nintendo staff member and magazine editor named Randy Studdard (who presented Nintendo with a formal proposal that included the character as a company spokes-character, the origin and premise, and the Saturday morning cartoon as part of the entire marketing campaign). The original concept involved Captain N (originally known as "Captain Nintendo") as a Nintendo employee and the Mother Brain as piece of programming from a Nintendo game pak (that was infused in an explosion with experimental "organic" ROMs) that went rogue. Captain N had the power to temporarily give life to characters and items from Nintendo games. The story left a door open for a sequel (Mother Brain is temporarily defeated but her return was said to be inevitable, and Captain N vows to stop her when the time comes). Nintendo of America, Inc. later decided to follow Studdard's ideas and create a cartoon series, opting neither to credit nor to compensate its creator. DIC Entertainment was shopped as the animation studio, and changed various aspects of the original idea while keeping the main premise of the Captain opposing Mother Brain as he interacted with a number of video game characters.[1]"

The only other Captain N thing was a comics published by Valiant Comics, but is part of the Nintendo Comics set.

There's also; The closing credits on the series itself say "Copyright 19XX By Nintendo of America, Inc." DiC is not mentioned. This is the last part I'm having trouble confirming at this time.

 

[Opossum]

Not really dubious. Captain N was created by Nintendo Power's own team member(who is also a regular Nintendo employee), and Nintendo America literally took control of the character. The only rights DiC has is distribution of the show. There's been absolutely nothing to point out anything that contradicts that Nintendo still owns it. I mean, he's called Captain Nintendo. No way they wouldn't hold onto the rights. The only way they aren't going to is if they never use the character again, but since the show is still being distributed via DVD's, they need to keep the copyright up because of its connections.

"The character Captain N first appeared in Nintendo Power magazine, created by a Nintendo staff member and magazine editor named Randy Studdard (who presented Nintendo with a formal proposal that included the character as a company spokes-character, the origin and premise, and the Saturday morning cartoon as part of the entire marketing campaign). The original concept involved Captain N (originally known as "Captain Nintendo") as a Nintendo employee and the Mother Brain as piece of programming from a Nintendo game pak (that was infused in an explosion with experimental "organic" ROMs) that went rogue. Captain N had the power to temporarily give life to characters and items from Nintendo games. The story left a door open for a sequel (Mother Brain is temporarily defeated but her return was said to be inevitable, and Captain N vows to stop her when the time comes). Nintendo of America, Inc. later decided to follow Studdard's ideas and create a cartoon series, opting neither to credit nor to compensate its creator. DIC Entertainment was shopped as the animation studio, and changed various aspects of the original idea while keeping the main premise of the Captain opposing Mother Brain as he interacted with a number of video game characters.[1]"

The only other Captain N thing was a comics published by Valiant Comics, but is part of the Nintendo Comics set.

There's also; The closing credits on the series itself say "Copyright 19XX By Nintendo of America, Inc." DiC is not mentioned. This is the last part I'm having trouble confirming at this time.

I've brought up before why this is absolutely ambiguous.

Captain N and Captain Nintendo are legally distinct characters. Different names, different secret identities, different abilities, different back stories. They are as unrelated as two characters can be.

Captain N's copyright is also entirely ambiguous. The end credits of the show only said "Featuring characters that are ©Nintendo," all while not crediting Konami and Capcom at all. As such, the ending copyright is notoriously unreliable.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I've brought up before why this is absolutely ambiguous.

Captain N and Captain Nintendo are legally distinct characters. Different names, different secret identities, different abilities, different back stories. They are as unrelated as two characters can be.

Captain N's copyright is also entirely ambiguous. The end credits of the show only said "Featuring characters that are ©Nintendo," all while not crediting Konami and Capcom at all. As such, the ending copyright is notoriously unreliable.

They aren't legally distinct. Captain N is literally a reimagining of Captain Nintendo after being bought out by Nintendo. It's fully cited they bought him out.

There is absolutely zero evidence that DiC owns the character. The only thing we at best can tell is they own the distributing rights. Nintendo's draconian practices to not cite those who create the character or other ownership is a different problem. Evidence still shows Captain N(the character) is fully owned by Nintendo. Obviously any aspects that Nintendo wouldn't own are different. He's never been anything but Nintendo owned at that point. No new copyright file claims ever have been provingly existent. There's zero dubious factors here that contradict Nintendo taking claim of the full character. DiC didn't magically own the character either. Producing the actual show does not grant them copyright claims to its ownership. It does not work that way. Publishing doesn't give people magical rights either other than sometimes saying who can actually release the work specifically, and that's actually a lot weirder than it should be. Generally the IP holder holds the actual rights of when something is allowed distribution. But that's due to the law being weird at the time. The fact they wouldn't cite the creator(which explains entirely why they refuse to cite Konami and Capcom at the time) intentionally is Nintendo being outright foolish.

 

[Arcadenik]

Yeah but I mean, once again, Jessie and James are absolutely fair game since they're fully owned by Nintendo just as much as every other Pokémon character is. If the anime made a difference we wouldn't have all the references to Ash that we do, we wouldn't have Misty's Melee trophy, and the non-Pikachu Pokémon wouldn't say their names.

It shouldn’t be an issue but we still have detractors saying no to Jessie and James and Team Rocket Meowth because of the “no fourth parties” rule when in context Sakurai was talking about non-Nintendo anime/manga characters like Naruto and Goku.

I mean... R.O.B. didn’t originate in a video game. It was a real-life NES peripheral. Nintendo owns the rights to R.O.B. so it was fair game. If Nintendo owns the rights to Jessie and James and Team Rocket Meowth then they should be fair game as well. If Nintendo owns the rights to Captain N despite his origins as a Saturday morning cartoon character then he should be fair game too.

 

[Opossum]

They aren't legally distinct. Captain N is literally a reimagining of Captain Nintendo after being bought out by Nintendo. It's fully cited they bought him out.

There is absolutely zero evidence that DiC owns the character. The only thing we at best can tell is they own the distributing rights. Nintendo's draconian practices to not cite those who create the character or other ownership is a different problem. Evidence still shows Captain N(the character) is fully owned by Nintendo. Obviously any aspects that Nintendo wouldn't own are different. He's never been anything but Nintendo owned at that point. No new copyright file claims ever have been provingly existent. There's zero dubious factors here that contradict Nintendo taking claim of the full character. DiC didn't magically own the character either. Producing the actual show does not grant them copyright claims to its ownership. It does not work that way. Publishing doesn't give people magical rights either other than sometimes saying who can actually release the work specifically, and that's actually a lot weirder than it should be. Generally the IP holder holds the actual rights of when something is allowed distribution. But that's due to the law being weird at the time. The fact they wouldn't cite the creator(which explains entirely why they refuse to cite Konami and Capcom at the time) intentionally is Nintendo being outright foolish.

They are absolutely legally distinct. Captain N is loosely based on Captain Nintendo, but is NOT the same character. Likewise, Palutena is loosely based on Pallas Athena, as her name is literally a corrupted version of it, but Nintendo fully owns Palutena because she's legally distinct from Pallas Athena, who is obviously public domain considering she's a Greek goddess.

This is the exact same case as Captain N. By all means, Captain N is a legally distinct character from Captain Nintendo.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They are absolutely legally distinct. Captain N is loosely based on Captain Nintendo, but is NOT the same character. Likewise, Palutena is loosely based on Pallas Athena, as her name is literally a corrupted version of it, but Nintendo fully owns Palutena because she's legally distinct from Pallas Athena, who is obviously public domain considering she's a Greek goddess.

This is the exact same case as Captain N. By all means, Captain N is a legally distinct character from Captain Nintendo.

And Nintendo still owns them nonetheless. There is zero evidence DiC ever got any ownership rights at all. What happened is they were tasked with creating a show based upon the content by Nintendo owned specifically. This still makes Nintendo the actual owners. Creating has nothing to do with who owns the copyright whatsoever. It's who claims a copyright. Though generally creators of a character/etc. by default own them, but if somebody else copyrights it, they're **** out of luck. It's something that if I remember right, the courts and law has changed to fight against that kind of problematic behavior.

They're not legally distinct in this situation, as they still had someone else rework on the character at their discretion. Not sure where you got the idea that Nintendo asking DiC to remake the character would change who owns the character. That makes little sense at all. Nintendo took a public domain character, and copyrighted them as well in Palutena's case. Incidentally, Lana is apparently loosely based upon Palutena according to what people talking to the creators(but not owners) could find out.

For the record, the Moderation has not seen any legitimate evidence DiC actually owns any characters within the series(just distributing rights), and the only reason Captain N isn't allowed a thread is because of a lack of game appearances. Also, according to the Tapatalk thread that explains everything, those who e-mailled Nintendo and DiC got the same answers, that Nintendo owns it. I'm taking that with a grain of salt, but it's actually some kind of evidence in comparison to a completely poor belief DiC suddenly gained the rights when everything leads back to Nintendo holding all copyright notices for the series. There's more information to be had at some point, maybe with more e-mails, but right now all evidence properly points to Nintendo holding the character rights and always did.

 

[Opossum]

And Nintendo still owns them nonetheless. There is zero evidence DiC ever got any ownership rights at all. What happened is they were tasked with creating a show based upon the content by Nintendo owned specifically. This still makes Nintendo the actual owners. Creating has nothing to do with who owns the copyright whatsoever. It's who claims a copyright. Though generally creators of a character/etc. by default own them, but if somebody else copyrights it, they're **** out of luck. It's something that if I remember right, the courts and law has changed to fight against that kind of problematic behavior.

They're not legally distinct in this situation, as they still had someone else rework on the character at their discretion. Not sure where you got the idea that Nintendo asking DiC to remake the character would change who owns the character. That makes little sense at all. Nintendo took a public domain character, and copyrighted them as well in Palutena's case. Incidentally, Lana is apparently loosely based upon Palutena according to what people talking to the creators(but not owners) could find out.

For the record, the Moderation has not seen any legitimate evidence DiC actually owns any characters within the series(just distributing rights), and the only reason Captain N isn't allowed a thread is because of a lack of game appearances. Also, according to the Tapatalk thread that explains everything, those who e-mailled Nintendo and DiC got the same answers, that Nintendo owns it. I'm taking that with a grain of salt, but it's actually some kind of evidence in comparison to a completely poor belief DiC suddenly gained the rights when everything leads back to Nintendo holding all copyright notices for the series. There's more information to be had at some point, maybe with more e-mails, but right now all evidence properly points to Nintendo holding the characters right and always did.

The Tapatalk thread in question doesn't have a source, so it should be thrown out entirely honestly.

The thing is, they didn't rework the character, they completely changed it because they legally had to due to broadcast laws. Literally nothing was kept the same aside from the title of Captain. And because of the unreliable credit copyright there's no reliable evidence that NINTENDO owns the character, either.

 

[Arcadenik]

In my (albeit biased) opinion, Captain N and Team Rocket Meowth deserve spots on the roster. Smash is not just a celebration of video game history, it is a celebration of Nintendo history (that was what Smash was founded on in the first place). Captain N and Team Rocket Meowth have made their marks in Nintendo history despite their non-video game origins. I’d say the same is true for Nester from the Nintendo Power magazine and he had at least two video games (Pilotwings 64 and Nester’s Funky Bowling).

 

[OrpheusTelos]

I never really got the logic behind Artorias in the Google leak. He's not even a major character in the series, he's a boss in the first game's DLC that later came with the Remastered version. He doesn't even fall into the Elma or Sans category where you could argue he's more recognizable than the protagonist. It makes no sense why they'd choose him over the Chosen Undead or even Solaire, both of who are more recognizable and play a bigger role in the main story.

On the subject of Dark Souls, if a future update decides to add a Boss Rush mode and adds a few extra bosses into the mix, I'd be down for a Dark Souls boss making it in that way. The bosses are one of the most integral part of any Soulsborne game and it'd be the best way to represent the series short of adding a playable fighter. I'm almost convinced that some new bosses are gonna be added to a hypothetical Boss Rush mode and the real reason Porky's spirit is missing is because they plan on bringing his boss fight back from Brawl.