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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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NintenZ

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@Delzethin put out a video on his speculation for potential first party characters in the second Fighters Pass; his videos have been pretty informative, and I figure it's worth a watch, either to find out more about characters that you might not be familiar with or to see other ways that your choice(s) might be supported. (if they're on the list)
This was a well put together video but I felt his choices seemed a bit too... Safe?

Especially since the whole thing with remakes and ports not affecting choices is entirely untrue since that's why Pokemon Trainer and Hero got in at all to begin with.
 

Hadokeyblade

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They definitely would but even so Shinguji would have to be an alt because she's too iconic NOT to be and their body structures and mannerisms fit perfectly with one another so there's really no issue.

v.
I can kinda see it, 2 Sakura's with their regular clothes having 2 colors and their combat suits having 2 colors.

And a final smash where both generations of the imperial assault force get in their mecha and start blasting.
 

NintenZ

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I can kinda see it, 2 Sakura's with their regular clothes having 2 colors and their combat suits having 2 colors.

And a final smash where both generations of the imperial assault force get in their mecha and start blasting.
This is exactly what I had in mind.

Alternatively you could have a Final Smash with Erica and Gemini assisting them since they're both protagonists.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I doubt that they' go that far, and at this point of time, I don't even see them having another p5 character since Royal is already out.
Seems easy to me, honestly. She can also be represented better with moveset changes aesthetically. So I can see it happening pretty easily.

Also, it's an Echo Pass. It doesn't need to be about advertising whatsoever.

Octoling seems like an obvious pick to me, between how similar they are to Inkling in terms of gameplay, their popularity being enough to get them a DLC campaign in Splatoon 2, and Splatoon's weapons giving them a wide variety of functionally similar but visually/statistically different attack options.
I don't know enough about Splatoon and my best of knowledge is that they look extremely similar, but then Dark Pit exists, so.

...Admittedly it's easy for me to forget about them, yeah. Make that 2 characters who are easy echoes, my bad.

I also doubt an Echo Pass to begin with, but I could see Dixie being on here if I didn't think she's far more likely to come with a partner as is.
 

Icedragonadam

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Why would Shinguji be the alt? She's the mascot of the series.

Anyways, the Imperial theater as the stage would interesting design wise. Mainly seeing the cast of Sakura Wars putting on a play while you have random people not even from their world duking it out. Of course it would make it seem like part of the show.
 
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kirbsmash

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I'm sorry, but I just don't see her as Joker Echo, really. In the end, she'd be likely be in his final smash.
 

Wunderwaft

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@Delzethin put out a video on his speculation for potential first party characters in the second Fighters Pass; his videos have been pretty informative, and I figure it's worth a watch, either to find out more about characters that you might not be familiar with or to see other ways that your choice(s) might be supported. (if they're on the list)
This is a really well done video and I agree with some of the points he makes. The two picks I disagree with however are Akira and Ring Fit Trainee, their spirits were released after the announcement of season 2 which probably means the team has no plans on making them a playable fighter, timing isn't in their favor. Gen 8 might also fall in this line but the fact that it was released as promotional spirits for the release of the game makes it a unique situation compared to Astral Chain and Ring Fit adventure, whose spirits released months after their games released.
 

Hadokeyblade

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Why would Shinguji be the alt? She's the mascot of the series.

Anyways, the Imperial theater as the stage would interesting design wise. Mainly seeing the cast of Sakura Wars putting on a play while you have random people not even from their world duking it out. Of course it would make it seem like part of the show.
Probably a Hero situation.

Put the one that people worldwide would probably recognize as the main one since that one reached the west.

Put the niche one who's popularity is mostly centered in Japan as an alt because she hasn't had a proper western appearance since the anime movie dub.

Like Luminary and Erdrick.
 

NintenZ

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Why would Shinguji be the alt? She's the mascot of the series. The Imperial theater as the stage would interesting design wise. Mainly seeing the cast of Sakura Wars putting on a play while you have random people not even from their world duking it out. Of course it would make it seem like part of the show.
Most likely to promote the new game, I'd personally prefer her as the main alt though

I could imagine the Imperial Theater as a stage where you fight as other characters from the series enact various plays, they could even be real life plays like Hamlet or Nastasya.
 

Hadokeyblade

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Most likely to promote the new game, I'd personally prefer her as the main alt though

I could imagine the Imperial Theater as a stage where you fight as other characters from the series enact various plays, they could even be real life plays like Hamlet or Nastasya.
Have the American team play Mario bros 3 because they are both from New york.
 

Cosmic77

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This was a well put together video but I felt his choices seemed a bit too... Safe?

Especially since the whole thing with remakes and ports not affecting choices is entirely untrue since that's why Pokemon Trainer and Hero got in at all to begin with.
To be fair, "safe" is another way of saying "easy to see". If we're discussing characters who we think have the best chance of being added, we probably wouldn't start with characters who aren't considered "safe".

As for ports influencing the roster, neither PT or Hero exist solely because of a port. The Gen 1 remakes influenced Sakurai's decision to make Red the trainer over Brendan, but Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard were always planned to be the three Pokemon some type of trainer character would use. The decision to include Red just made more sense. A DQ character was getting in one way or another. After deciding it would be based off of one of the protagonists, SE requested that the hero be Luminary instead of an older one.

The only time I remember a port influencing Smash in a significant way is when Gerudo Valley got in Smash 3DS.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I'm sorry, but I just don't see her as Joker Echo, really. In the end, she'd be likely be in his final smash.
She was literally coded as a Costume in the first place. That was her plan in the game, to play identically to him.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the fact she was a costume in the released patches meaning they already has approved of her being a costume? Yes, it's not technically the final build, but why would they have the data there then? I'm pretty sure they can't use the data in any kind of actual release(Patches or not) without approval. It stopped counting as proof of concept here.

What probably happened is her debuting in Smash Bros. was not ideal, so they had her removed later on. Renegotiating contracts is pretty easy. This doesn't mean she'd become an Echo, despite the outright loss of model data in the end.

...Also, are we sure Kasumi is literally supposed to be Jane? I'm not sure if that's confirmed besides a hypothesis.
 

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This was a well put together video but I felt his choices seemed a bit too... Safe?

Especially since the whole thing with remakes and ports not affecting choices is entirely untrue since that's why Pokemon Trainer and Hero got in at all to begin with.
I skipped through it, and I don't get why post-release spirits would be on the table but ATs get ignored.
 
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NintenZ

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She was literally coded as a Costume in the first place. That was her plan in the game, to play identically to him.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the fact she was a costume in the released patches meaning they already has approved of her being a costume? Yes, it's not technically the final build, but why would they have the data there then? I'm pretty sure they can't use the data in any kind of actual release(Patches or not) without approval. It stopped counting as proof of concept here.

What probably happened is her debuting in Smash Bros. was not ideal, so they had her removed later on. Renegotiating contracts is pretty easy. This doesn't mean she'd become an Echo, despite the outright loss of model data in the end.

...Also, are we sure Kasumi is literally supposed to be Jane? I'm not sure if that's confirmed besides a hypothesis.
Who else could it be honestly, I struggle to think of who it could be that's THAT similar to Joker.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Who else could it be honestly, I struggle to think of who it could be that's THAT similar to Joker.
No, I'm sure it was her, don't get me wrong.

But that doesn't confirm it. I'm not arguing she isn't it, just that if we can't confirm it, we can't undoubtly say she was obviously going to play exactly like Joker. It's possible they were different characters. A very slim possibility, anyway.

It was brought up to me as I had finished my costume point up above. Meaning it's not the best argument to make right now. So that's my bad.
 
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Cosmic77

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...Also, are we sure Kasumi is literally supposed to be Jane? I'm not sure if that's confirmed besides a hypothesis.
It was never confirmed. I do remember something about data for hair being found in the files, but that was likely for Ann during Joker's final Smash.

I doubt we'll ever get an answer. For all we know, it could just be some unused assets for another Joker alt costume or leftover data for a different Phantom Thief.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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It was never confirmed. I do remember something about data for hair being found in the files, but that was likely for Ann during Joker's final Smash.

I doubt we'll ever get an answer. For all we know, it could just be some unused assets for another Joker alt costume or leftover data for a different Phantom Thief.
Actually, Vaanrose pointed it out it strictly in the costume data for Joker's alts. So it was costume or nothing.

Doesn't mean it was definitely Kasumi. Thankfully I'm talking to another user pointing out some good points. Joker even has a female-like costume in his own series, via crossdressing. It could've been that.

That said, with that in mind, I'm far less sure. So my bad for that. It had more holes than I thought, heh.
 

Icedragonadam

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So I'm guessing if Nintendo is part of the Summer Fest's later phases, they will only show their 1st party titles with the future 3rd party games coming to Switch being announced in the other streams, which would line up with the Insider's words.
 

Cosmic77

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The data suggested a costume with hair. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was nothing about an Echo. Fans just made that up themselves.

Actually, the only reason why I think people jumped from a costume to an Echo is because they knew there was no way Kasumi or any of the Phantom Thieves matched Joker so well that Sakurai would be able to pass them off as an alt costume. The closest weapon to Joker's knife is a sword, and scaling that down to match is enough to make even Lucina laugh.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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The data suggested a costume with hair. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was nothing about an Echo. Fans just made that up themselves.
That's missing the entire point. If(key term being if) Jane was Kasumi, that means she's entirely believable as an Echo. That's literally all it means. Not that an Echo is coming for sure. That'd be one way to reuse the costume data, yes. You could also use it for a Kasumi Hat as a Mii costume too.

Actually, the only reason why I think people jumped from a costume to an Echo is because they knew there was no way Kasumi or any of the Phantom Thieves matched Joker so well that Sakurai would be able to pass them off as an alt costume. The closest weapon to Joker's knife is a sword, and scaling that down to match is enough to make even Lucina laugh.
Weird. I actually thought it was because they didn't want Kasumi to debut outside of their own series so renegotiated instead, and then put it as an Echo or Mii Costume so they can reuse the costume data that they already approved of. Or even a later semi-clone/clone.

I doubt the data was fully removed to never be used again, but that's possible too.

Either way, we probably won't know at any point, so eh.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Especially since the whole thing with remakes and ports not affecting choices is entirely untrue since that's why Pokemon Trainer and Hero got in at all to begin with.
You mean why Red and Eleven specifically were chosen? Pokémon Trainer and Hero are the protagonist of literally every main entry in the series, so I don't think the most recent games would effect them as character choices.*

*I'm only referring to the Pokémon Trainer as a concept here since if they went with a trainer from a different generation the Pokémon chosen would reflect that.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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You mean why Red and Eleven specifically were chosen? Pokémon Trainer and Hero are the protagonist of literally every main entry in the series, so I don't think the most recent games would effect them as character choices.*

*I'm only referring to the Pokémon Trainer as a concept here since if they went with a trainer from a different generation the Pokémon chosen would reflect that.
Well, no. You could have costumes of any trainer as long as Red's costume was the base and it'd work fine. It's just important that the first one is a Gen 1-type costume to get the idea down. Besides, you can get Gen 1 Pokemon in every game up to PT's original debut, so you could have proper ones of Gold, Silver, Crystal, Leaf, etc. It's more that it required a lot more model work to do that, so purely textures is easier. All PT got was a Leaf model change but nothing else beyond texture changes again. Little changed besides technically costume cuts.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Well, no. You could have costumes of any trainer as long as Red's costume was the base and it'd work fine. It's just important that the first one is a Gen 1-type costume to get the idea down. Besides, you can get Gen 1 Pokemon in every game up to PT's original debut, so you could have proper ones of Gold, Silver, Crystal, Leaf, etc. It's more that it required a lot more model work to do that, so purely textures is easier. All PT got was a Leaf model change but nothing else beyond texture changes again. Little changed besides technically costume cuts.
My disclaimer statement was assuming that Red (or Leaf) wasn't the trainer chosen in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I believe we'd still have a Pokémon Trainer in that scenario. Same thing with Hero even if Dragon Quest XI wasn't a thing yet.

To be honest, Red is far and beyond the most popular player character in the games, so I'd find it hard to believe that they wouldn't choose him even if Pokémon Fire Red and Pokémon Leaf Green weren't recent or were nonexistant titles at the point Pokémon Trainer was added.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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My disclaimer statement was assuming that Red (or Leaf) wasn't the trainer chosen in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I believe we'd still have a Pokémon Trainer in that scenario. Same thing with Hero even if Dragon Quest XI wasn't a thing yet.

To be honest, Red is far and beyond the most popular player character in the games, so I'd find it hard to believe that they wouldn't choose him even if Pokémon Fire Red and Pokémon Leaf Green weren't recent or were nonexistant titles at the point Pokémon Trainer was added.
Oh, sorry, I missed that part. Yeah, Red's design was a given if they used Gen 1 Pokemon. No contest. If they used, say, Gen 3 Pokemon, then Ruby and Sapphire would be the defaults, or just Ruby(I think that's the Male?). I think we'd have seen other models, maybe, like in Ultimate, but who knows. Though at the time, Red was the only canon Gen 1 protagonist as well. Leaf was retcon'd in, but worth noting that it's possible they didn't decide FR/LG was a new canon yet. Maybe TPC just didn't think it was a good idea at the time.

I know Brawl was delayed, but you can still see not everything worked out. They literally put Wolf and some others in last minute, so despite the delay, the game was technically rushed in some areas. An extra model for Pokemon Trainer was probably not on the table due to that alone. Though being it's a change you'd think of early on, I lean more towards TPC. It could also be something they wanted to do back then, but considered it a "if we have time" change, like the Forbidden 7. ...I would've loved them, if only for a full-out playable Original Character in Toon Sheik. Master Hand kind of counts. XD
 
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Plank08

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Violet being a Joker Echo felt forced a year ago and it still feels forced today. She doesn't have a grappling hook, her persona is completely different from Arsene, and maybe it's just me, but a knife and a sword seem to have different proportions.

Is it possible? I'm sure it is. Would they have to take a lot of liberties to make it happen? Yep.
If anything crow would work much better as an echo fighter (although he would need a ton of changes like Ken.)
 

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Gen III's protagonists aren't named after the games. Its protagonists' names are Brendon (male) and May (female).
Actually, they are in some Mangas. The colored names also exist from what I remember as an official thing. So that's not entirely true.

But it's more what design they'd use. I'm guessing May since she was pushed for the anime.
 

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Actually, they are in some Mangas. The colored names also exist from what I remember as an official thing. So that's not entirely true.

But it's more what design they'd use. I'm guessing May since she was pushed for the anime.
The manga seem to play fast and loose with the protagonist names, such as with Lucas being called Diamond and Hereta in two different series. I don't think these names are cannon in regards to the games.
 
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Scoliosis Jones

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Considering the results of that video, it seems to me that the focus of 1st parties really is drawn by the same handful of picks. There doesn't seem to be much deviation there.

I just think it's interesting. There's no shade to be thrown or anything, I just think it's interesting that it seems consistent anywhere you go with the 1st party options being quite similar from fan to fan.

I must admit that I skipped through it because I'm an old man watching Dateline, but I think an interesting concept would be boiling down each character not only to a moveset potential, but also looking at "what factors make X more plausible than y?"Just seems to me like we can clearly acknowledge that not all characters are in equal standing, but among 1st parties I wonder where the fanbase would say they all stand.
 

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The manga seem to play fast and loose with the protagonist names, such as with Lucas being called Diamond and Hereta in two different series. I don't think these names are cannon in regards to the games.
Pokemon generally went with some colored names at first. It makes some sense for Mangas to work with that.
 

Hadokeyblade

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The manga seem to play fast and loose with the protagonist names, such as with Lucas being called Diamond and Hereta in two different series. I don't think these names are cannon in regards to the games.
I like the explanation for this in the BW2 manga, where the game name was just a codename for the male protagonist.
 

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Pokemon generally went with some colored names at first. It makes some sense for Mangas to work with that.
Yeah, the Pokémon Adventures manga is a serialized thing, so it would make sense that they would go into production before the characters' official names are picked.

The early protagonists' names are weird. This might have changed in Pokémon Masters, but at least before that, Leaf was not the character's official name, it was Green, but only in the U.S. In Japan, it's Blue (and Blue's name is Green). Leaf was a name found in the code, and fans decided to use it to avoid confusion. Also, Ethan and Kris didn't actually have official names until Pokémon Heart Gold/Soul Silver and Pokémon Masters respectively.
 

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Yeah, the Pokémon Adventures manga is a serialized thing, so it would make sense that they would go into production before the characters' official names are picked.

The early protagonists' names are weird. This might have changed in Pokémon Masters, but at least before that, Leaf was not the character's official name, it was Green, but only in the U.S. In Japan, it's Blue (and Blue's name is Green). Leaf was a name found in the code, and fans decided to use it to avoid confusion. Also, Ethan and Kris didn't actually have official names until Pokémon Heart Gold/Soul Silver and Pokémon Masters respectively.
Yep. It's insane.

Kris at least is clearly an obvious basis on Crystal. And then you have the anime adaption of some of these.

Also, Blue/Green(the girl) somewhat resembles Dawn too.
 

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I saw someone mentioned Gunvolt. I played both his games and they were pretty cool. I don't think he will be Playable though, but I'm very Confident he's gonna be a Mii Costume

Considering the results of that video, it seems to me that the focus of 1st parties really is drawn by the same handful of picks. There doesn't seem to be much deviation there.

I just think it's interesting. There's no shade to be thrown or anything, I just think it's interesting that it seems consistent anywhere you go with the 1st party options being quite similar from fan to fan.

I must admit that I skipped through it because I'm an old man watching Dateline, but I think an interesting concept would be boiling down each character not only to a moveset potential, but also looking at "what factors make X more plausible than y?"Just seems to me like we can clearly acknowledge that not all characters are in equal standing, but among 1st parties I wonder where the fanbase would say they all stand.
To Answer your Question, I think in terms of what characters have more factors going in their favor, I would say

Rex & Pyra and Isaac are the Top Tier characters. Rex has Sakurai Grace and love for him, and Nintendo has Shown lots of Xenoblade love recently with remake, even if Rex might not be in that. Isaac has rumors of something happening with his series (due to the trademarks and all that), and also had Backlash towards AT Inclusion that I believe Nintendo heard, which could be something to consider

If it were not for the Spirit Event so close to FP2's Finalization (And it also coming back in February) I would add a Gen 8 Pokemon to Top Tier as well, due to it being Pokemon.

Waluigi is also up there, though i don't know if he's the type of character that will get a Fighter Pass all to himself. if Bonus characters are a thing, then He would be top tier, due to the Huge Backlash from his AT reveal, and also just him being a Mario character, meaning he be recongized.

Paper Mario, Dixie, Bandanna Dee, and Euden fit somewhere below Waluigi. Paper Mario has all the rumors, and if he wasn't another Mario I think there would be huge merit to his inclusion. Dixie and Bandanna Dee are popular and if there are bonus Fighters They become more likely, but eh. I understand why Euden does get looked at, with his series being a Big Nintendo step into Mobile market, but otherwise that's all the appeal i can really see backing him up
 

EricTheGamerman

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This was a well put together video but I felt his choices seemed a bit too... Safe?

Especially since the whole thing with remakes and ports not affecting choices is entirely untrue since that's why Pokemon Trainer and Hero got in at all to begin with.
While such port/remakes are available in the general time frame, I feel like Charizard/Squirtle being added and Dragon Quest being added to Smash didn't exactly require those entries to exist. I don't think the character began with the existence of those ports, and hell, Dragon Quest was the idea generally speaking and not Eleven himself, they just settled on Eleven as the first alt with the stage.
 

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Octoling seems like an obvious pick to me, between how similar they are to Inkling in terms of gameplay, their popularity being enough to get them a DLC campaign in Splatoon 2, and Splatoon's weapons giving them a wide variety of functionally similar but visually/statistically different attack options.
I'm just gonna shill Protoman for a potential Echo. Cause he's pretty cool, and has a handful of gimmicks from MM9 and MM10 to reference in establishing differences between him and Mega Man.
 

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Wow this is the first time we discussed Jane in forever and once again people are saying hair bones for a background character was put in Joker's data despite datamining showing that Ann's hair uses a different manner of animation than Jane would have
 
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