Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Shroob]

That's the definition of tone deaf. No one was asking for "every previous Smash character" to come back, just Snake, Wolf and Ice Climbers. Nobody was asking for characters to return who are now redundant, like Pichu and Young Link, and I think bringing everybody back only served to hurt the game, because it feels overly bloated and stale. I've gone into detail as to why before, but basically it feels like no significant evolution in gameplay has happened and we've basically been playing Melee for the past 20 years.

And I don't know what you're talking about with "long-standing fan demands" - K. Rool and ridley were the only characters meeting this criteria, every other newcomer was apparently picked either by Nintendo's marketing team or by throwing darts at a wall full of post-it notes.

No one was asking

But it was a very nice and appreciated gesture. When I'm seeing grown ass men crying that characters like Pichu or Young Link came back when for all intents and purposes they could have been left out and very few people would care, yeah that fills me with a fuzzy feeling.



And yeah, I'm gonna just have to agree to disagree. The fact that Ultimate could hit 90 characters is literally what I've always wanted in a Smash game. I don't care about balance, I care about fun, and is this game fun? Absolutely. This is by far the most fun I've ever had in a Smash game, period.

 

[Zeox]

To be fair, Byleth was chosen to be part of the fighters pass like a year before his game came out. There was no way to know that the game was going to be a success and loved by fans. Byleth was chosen for promotional purposes and not because his game was good.

Didn't something similar happen with Corrin?

 

[Will]

Hoes still mad?

Hoes still mad.

 

[kirbsmash]

Guys, come on, 6 more fighters...

 

[GuiltyGyarados]

Ridley and K.Rool

Nobody's ever going to agree with me on this, but I dislike that both of these characters made the cut.

Sakurai warned us about Ridley. To make him playable, they'd have to shrink him down to a point where it'd barely feel like Ridley anymore, and that's exactly what ended up happening. I can't enjoy playing as Ridley, because I don't feel big and powerful enough. He feels butchered. Yes, he was rather small in Metroid 1, but that's the only time he's ever been depicted that way, and in the very first game, on a system with heavy technological limitations. Yes, it's cool that he still retains his sadistic personality, but that's not really enough for me. I still feel like I'm playing a miniature version, and that's just kinda lame.

K. Rool is just kind of doofy and poorly-designed, in my opinion. He's redundant with Bowser just from a visual standpoint, and on top of that, he's also extremely annoying to fight (especially online) because of all his ridiculous tools.

My point here is that it's okay if you're disappointed with Ultimate's roster, even when it's so expansive. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to feel that it's unnecessarily bloated, and DLC only exacerbates that.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Rank the DLC

Piranha Plant: 1/10
Joker: 6/10
Hero: 5/10
Banjo and Kazooie: 9/10
Terry: 6/10
Byleth: 8/10

 

[DanganZilla5]

It's Time to Split!

View attachment 258308

Did somebody say split?

Scrum Debate music starts

Anywho, another revelation I've realized was that the fan rule, "No company repeats for the pass" came true. Even if you believe the theory that Nintendo swapped Fighters 5 and 6, if iamshifty was right about Ryu Hayabusa or CacoMallow is real and a Bethesda rep happens close to near the future, we can confirm that Nintendo did only go to each company for one character. And that's probably the case for the second fighters pass.

I also wanted to say that I completely understood Papagenos. Yes he got himself hyped up because he talked about characters like Arle constantly up until the presentation. But I thought his reaction was completely understandable. Fire Emblem already has enough reps. It's time for other franchises to get more representation or any representation at all. It was a completely justifiable reaction.

 

[Will]

Guys, come on, 6 more fighters...

But it's the EVIL Fire Emblem! They're all the same, generic, bland and uninspi- what do you mean half of them are unique

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

Biases aside, I'm not the only one who feels the Byleth trailer is uninspired and kinda shoddy, right? I know I'm an outsider to FE looking in but it just felt unatural and forced. The conflict at hand that happened in the CGI didn't seem like it had anything to do with Smash Bros and the invite was basically only forced upon Fighter 5 by Sudith (that's her name right?) which feels to sudden and has no proper segway. Honestly, the way she said "jOin sMAsh BroS aLReadY LmAo" kinda made me wince, along with Palpatine looking dude spouting "JOINING SMASH CONSUMES EVEN THE DARKNESS ITSELF!". Way too cheesy and not in a good way imo. Basically, it had all the same issues Corrin's trailer had. Atleast Robin's trailer had Falcon and didn't immediately make it obvious who the newcomer was.

Yes, I'm aware of the nod to "Too many swordsmen". Didn't laugh. Being self-aware doesn't make you in the right, not that I'm in that camp mind you.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Didn't something similar happen with Corrin?

Yeah, Corrin was chosen because he was from a new Nintendo game and they wanted to promote that game. At this point it's hard to deny that Fire Emblem has received favoritism when it comes to Smash.

 

[PsychoJosh]

They will never be able to get every single third party character and satisfy everyone, and to say that they don't care about this game after a couple disappointing DLC characters is insulting tbh.

I didn't say they "don't care about this game", I said they don't care about justifiable criticisms from fans. They hung a lampshade on this by making a crack about the common "too many swordsmen" complaint in the Byleth reveal trailer, which is basically a straight up admission that they are listening to fan complaints and simply don't care about them. While I'm not personally offended since it's a common complaint, there's no way that doesn't count as something that's truly insulting. But they're the ones raking in the money, so if they're insulted by any reasonable complaints said by some random poster on an internet forum, then they can just hold that handkerchief to their face.

But it was a very nice and appreciated gesture. When I'm seeing grown ass men crying that characters like Pichu or Young Link came back when for all intents and purposes they could have been left out and very few people would care, yeah that fills me with a fuzzy feeling.

Clearly not. I really don't care about your issues of schadenfreude at seeing other people upset, which has dark psychological implications. I'm just saying it doesn't really make for a better game to revive characters that are utterly redundant and obsolete. They could've at least done something more with them.

And yeah, I'm gonna just have to agree to disagree. The fact that Ultimate could hit 90 characters is literally what I've always wanted in a Smash game. I don't care about balance, I care about fun, and is this game fun? Absolutely. This is by far the most fun I've ever had in a Smash game, period.

Good for you. I'm not even talking about balance, I'm just talking about how stagnant and boring the game has become because of their focus on making numbers go up more than anything that would actually future-proof the game like having new mechanics and modes or doing something actually interesting with the interactions of all the IP involved in Smash. Or at the very least making the netcode not suck. If you're having fun, then have fun, but that doesn't absolve this game of criticism for all its flaws.

 

[Will]

At this point it's hard to deny that Fire Emblem has received favoritism when it comes to Smash.

Oh it's definitely received favoritism. This is especially favoritism.

But this is an ad for a game that's actually good.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That's the definition of tone deaf. No one was asking for "every previous Smash character" to come back, just Snake, Wolf and Ice Climbers. Characters who are now redundant, like Pichu and Young Link, were not being asked for by anybody. And I think bringing everybody back only served to hurt the game, because it feels overly bloated and stale, and doesn't do anything interesting or unexpected because it's focused on having higher numbers instead of higher quality. I've gone into detail as to why it feels stale before, but basically it feels like no significant evolution in gameplay has happened and we've basically been playing the same game for the past 20 years.

And I don't know what you're talking about with "long-standing fan demands" - K. Rool, the Belmonts and Ridley were the only characters who meet this criteria, every other newcomer was apparently picked either by Nintendo's marketing team or by throwing darts at a wall full of post-it notes.

Clearly you never saw my rants during the Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3Ds/Wii U DLC speculation era.

Good. They were terrible and cringy.

 

[Shroob]

I didn't say they "don't care about this game", I said they don't care about justifiable criticisms from fans. They hung a lampshade on this by making a crack about the common "too many swordsmen" complaint in the Byleth reveal trailer, which is basically a straight up admission that they are listening to fan complaints and simply don't care about them. That is insulting. They're the ones raking in the money so you think I care (or even they care) if I hurt their feelings?



Clearly not. I really don't care about your issues of schadenfreude at seeing other people upset, which has dark psychological implications. I'm just saying it doesn't really make for a better game to make characters utterly redundant. They could've at least done something more with them.



Good for you. I'm not even talking about balance, I'm just talking about how stagnant and boring the game has become because of their focus on making numbers go up more than anything that would actually future-proof the game like having new mechanics and modes or doing something actually interesting with the interactions of all the IP involved in Smash. Or at the very least making the netcode not suck. If you're having fun, then have fun, but that doesn't absolve this game of criticism for all its flaws.

"Grown ass men crying about Pichu and Young Link" meaning, tears of joy. Not anger..... How in the world did you imply pain and suffering from that?

Yes, there were people who were over the moon to see Pichu and Young Link back. You can watch most "EVERYONE IS HERE" reactions and see people cry out in literal joy.


But I really want to see your statistics for all these people who are unhappy because.... ya know... best selling game in the franchise and the Fighter's Pass being a huge financial success and all that.

 

[osby]

At this point it's hard to deny that Fire Emblem has received favoritism when it comes to Smash.

Let's just hope Sakurai keeps the trend of favoring good games in the next pass, too.

 

[GuiltyGyarados]

But I really want to see your statistics for all these people who are unhappy

You can throw me into that figure.

Piranha Plant: 1/10

Oh, I forgot to count Plant when I did mine.

Plant is a 5/5 for me. Really funny joke character that's creative and fun to play. You can't honestly be too mad about it when he was just a free bonus (unless you weren't able to download him in time, I guess. I do think he should've stayed free forever), especially if you're going to give Byleth an 8/10.

 

[zeldasmash]

There is that. But cool or not, there is so many more enjoyable and cool possibilities, even without looking at the third parties, that I think he would have been badly received at anytime, because Fire Emblem.

I don't think Byleth would be nearly as badly received as he is now had he been revealed for the 2nd pass.

 

[Will]

The floodgates are free for literally everyone now. Byleth getting in harmed no one's chances. In fact, we all agreed that post-pass a Fire Emblem or a Pokemon character seemed inevitable. If anything, you're only irrationally upset over having to wait longer for whoever you want.

 

[MrJudd]

Biases aside, I'm not the only one who feels the Byleth trailer is uninspired and kinda shoddy, right? I know I'm an outsider to FE looking in but it just felt unatural and forced. The conflict at hand that happened in the CGI didn't seem like it had anything to do with Smash Bros and the invite was basically only forced upon Fighter 5 by Sudith (that's her name right?) which feels to sudden and has no proper segway. Honestly, the way she said "jOin sMAsh BroS aLReadY LmAo" kinda made me wince, along with Palpatine looking dude spouting "JOINING SMASH CONSUMES EVEN THE DARKNESS ITSELF!". Way too cheesy and not in a good way imo. Basically, it had all the same issues Corrin's trailer had. Atleast Robin's trailer had Falcon and didn't immediately make it obvious who the newcomer was.

Yes, I'm aware of the nod to "Too many swordsman". Didn't laugh. Being self-aware doesn't make you in the right, not that I'm in that camp mind you.

I agree, this trailer was the worst newcomer trailer for ultimate so far. I don't know why, but I still have a gut feeling that this trailer was supposed to be shown at TGA and was dropped out in the end because of all the crazy backlash it would happen (even more than how it actually pan out).

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

So, i've rewatched the Byleth presentation a few times. I just wanted to share some early thoughts about their moveset/character archetype in case anynone is interested:

I have a feeling that Byleth will play a bit like a Belmont. Not totally like a Belmont obviously but a lot of their normal and aerial attacks seem to have similar purposes. Like, strong attacks with a very good horizontal reach (the spear moves) mixed with some good ''get off me'' tools (to help keep opponents at a safe distance, mostly the whip sword moves along with neutral-air). The forward-Smash even has the tipper and the possibility to angle it like the Belmonts,

Based on what i've seen, it seems that Byleth also doesn't have a lot of tools to successfully 'rush down' an opponent (they're relatively slow in general, both in movement and attack speed). Again, I'm not saying that Byleth is literally a Belmont, i just think that they share some significant similarities.

Free edgeguard. lol. Wanna try to recover high against Byleth?

Aside from that, they potentially got some very good tools for a more 'conventional' edgeguard like forward-air has good range, the aerial version of the side special with its huge hitbox, down-air with its spike or the bow.

The down-b is basically a counter.

For real, It kinda reminds me of Charizard's Rock Smash in Smash 4. I bet people will use it to land back on stage safely, just tanking aerial attacks or stuff on the way down with the super armor. I'm going to guess that the attack can obliterate a whole shield in one hit, idk, just a gut feeling.

Of course, it's still early, i could be totally wrong about anything or everything, we'll see. I just can't resist speculating about the new moveset. Honestly, it's my favorite part of every reveal regardless of the character.

 

[Will]

The down-b is basically a counter.

Oh **** no.

Down B is discount Hatchet Man.

 

[osby]

I agree, this trailer was the worst newcomer trailer for ultimate so far. I don't know why, but I still have a gut feeling that this trailer was supposed to be shown at TGA and was dropped out in the end because of all the crazy backlash it would happen (even more than how it actually pan out).

Eh, people said "Nintendo did this because they were afraid of backlash" for more than half of Ultimate newcomers. It's hard to see them as something more than forum circlejerks at this point.

If Nintendo was afraid of backlash that much, they wouldn't add Byleth in the first place.

 

[GuiltyGyarados]

I don't think Byleth would be nearly as badly received as he is now had he been revealed for the 2nd pass.

I for one would certainly have accepted him a lot more, begrudgingly. It really was the poor timing.

It's the one pattern that Sakurai hasn't broken yet: The last character revealed in a season is always going to disappoint and divide half the fanbase.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Does this trailer mark the first time Nintendo has pronounced 'Byleth'?

 

[Will]

I for one would certainly have accepted him a lot more, begrudgingly. It really was the poor timing.

People said the same thing about Piranha Plant, IIRC.

I remember everyone's Direct threads being disappointed over the reality that their Grinch fantasy was nothing but, and then they saw Mario and at least half the people were immediately going "GENO GENO GENO". Seeing people's reactions to that was also hilarious.

Hero might've been called out for the same **** if Banjo didn't pop up until like a month later.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Oh it's definitely received favoritism. This is especially favoritism.

But this is an ad for a game that's actually good.

Let's just hope Sakurai keeps the trend of favoring good games in the next pass, too.

Here's the thing, there was no way to know Three Houses was going to be a good game a year prior to it's release. This was a risky choice and if Three Houses turned out to be a bad game then this would've backfired immensely on Sakurai and Nintendo.

 

[PsychoJosh]

"Grown ass men crying about Pichu and Young Link" meaning, tears of joy. Not anger..... How in the world did you imply pain and suffering from that?

It's your fault for not clarifying, tears are more commonly associated with negative feelings than positive ones.

Yes, there were people who were over the moon to see Pichu and Young Link back. You can watch most "EVERYONE IS HERE" reactions and see people cry out in literal joy.

That's just an initial reaction of surprise, it's not the same thing as an opinion that can change over time. I was surprised too.

But I really want to see your statistics for all these people who are unhappy because.... ya know... best selling game in the franchise and the Fighter's Pass being a huge financial success and all that.

I know it's the best-selling game, hell, I'm one of the people who bought it and contributed to that. Just because a lot of people bought the game doesn't necessarily mean they're all happy with it, I mean my posts are proof of that, and I'm hardly an outlier. There are many people who share my bad impressions and complaints on Smash, just look at threads on 4chan and 8kun about the game. Tons of people also buy into games like Destiny 2 and write hundreds of complaints about them on a daily basis, same with Street Fighter V, same with Overwatch, same with a million other games that are popular. Sales don't correlate to customer satisfaction, because satisfaction is a much harder and more nebulous thing to measure that wanes and peaks over time.

 

[ZeldaPlayer87]

I’ve made peace with the fact that Byleth is in. Banjo was the character that would “complete” the roster for me, and now we have Fighter’s Pass 2 to look forward too. Anyone after Banjo is just a bonus to me and I couldn’t be mad no matter who gets in. Plus, I love how crowded the banner is going to get now, if it wasn’t so crowded already. I’m glad Byleth isn’t grouped with Joker, Terry, and Hero. The DLC Fighters should be more spread out.

 

[Shroob]

It's your fault for not clarifying, tears are more commonly associated with negative feelings than positive ones.



That's just an initial reaction of surprise, it's not the same thing as an opinion that can change over time. I was surprised too.



I know it's the best-selling game, hell, I'm one of the people who bought it and contributed to that. Just because a lot of people bought the game doesn't necessarily mean they're all happy with it, I mean my posts are proof of that, and I'm hardly an outlier. There are many people who share my bad impressions and complaints on Smash, just look at threads on 4chan and 8kun about the game. Tons of people also buy into games like Destiny 2 and write hundreds of complaints about them on a daily basis, same with Street Fighter V, same with Overwatch, same with a million other games. Sales don't correlate to satisfaction because satisfaction is a much harder and more nebulous thing to measure that wanes and peaks over time.

The people that actually post about Smash online are a fraction of the playerbase.

Smash barely made it into Twitter's top 10 most #'d video games of 2019.


For every 1 person online talking about Smash, there's probably 2-3 that just....don't. You can't view the entire playerbase through "The people who talk about it online", because most just don't.


That'd be like me going to the r/Pokemon and surmising that "These are the only people who play Pokemon, there aren't anymore."


We think we're bigger than we are, when we're a speck.

 

[Will]

It's your fault for not clarifying

yeah that fills me with a fuzzy feeling.

No, he made it pretty clear.

 

[osby]

I for one would certainly have accepted him a lot more, begrudgingly. It really was the poor timing.

It's the one pattern that Sakurai hasn't broken yet: The last character revealed in a season is always going to disappoint and divide half the fanbase.

Yet people refuse to lower their expectations for final reveals.

Also, there are very few characters who wouldn't disappoint and divide half the fanbase. Fans just treat final reveals like it has to be something super special.

Anyway, there are at least 6 more character. Nobody has to like Byleth but it's pretty pointless to act like they are the end of the world.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I don't think Byleth would be nearly as badly received as he is now had he been revealed for the 2nd pass.

Byleth shouldn't really have received this much hate anyway considering we still have another pass to go. Besides Sakurai did warn us going into the presentation that we shouldn't take it personally if it's not the character anyone wanted.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Does this trailer mark the first time Nintendo has pronounced 'Byleth'?

I can't say for sure, but I feel like one of the Fire Emblem: Three Houses trailers said his name. Though without looking back they could have also said "you" the whole time.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Anyway, there are at least 6 more character. Nobody has to like Byleth but it's pretty pointless to act like they are the end of the world.

End of the world? Neku confirmed!

 

[GuiltyGyarados]

Also, there are very few characters who wouldn't disappoint and divide half the fanbase. Fans just treat final reveals like it has to be something super special.

Should it NOT be, though?

Would it not be better for business to end with a bang?

Apparently not, because they consistently refuse to do it, but still. It's baffling.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Should it NOT be, though?

Would it not be better for business to end with a bang?

Apparently not, because they refuse to do it, but still. It's baffling.

Most people who are going to buy the pass have already bought it by the time the last pack is revealed. It's not baffling.

 

[PsychoJosh]

The people that actually post about Smash online are a fraction of the playerbase.

This just sounds like an assumption more than anything, do you have any facts to back this up?

Smash barely made it into Twitter's top 10 most #'d video games of 2019.

Twitter is not the be-all-end-all of online discourse, and it's only one website, of which there are literally trillions.

For every 1 person online talking about Smash, there's probably 2-3 that just....don't. You can't view the entire playerbase through "The people who talk about it online", because most just don't.

That'd be like me going to the r/Pokemon and surmising that "These are the only people who play Pokemon, there aren't anymore."

We think we're bigger than we are, when we're a speck.

More to the point, what does this have to do with anything? Let's say you're correct with the assumption that 1 out of every 3 players posts online about Smash. Okay, and...? What does that have to do with my point? Are you saying that everyone who isn't complaining about it online must necessarily have a positive opinion on Smash Ultimate? How do you know this? How do you know the majority of those silent gamers don't agree with me that it is a heavily flawed game? You don't. Just like I don't know that they don't all agree with you. There are no measurable facts to say what the general consensus is among those silent gamers. So why even bring it up?

 

[GuiltyGyarados]

Most people who are going to buy the pass have already bought it by the time the last pack is revealed. It's not baffling.

It's EXTREMELY baffling. Where are you getting "most" from? I sure as hell didn't buy the pass. Why would I? I'm not alone on that. There's tons of people who are more comfortable buying characters that they actually want individually, because it saves more money in the long run. I would think that's most people.

 

[Shroob]

This just sounds like an assumption more than anything, do you have any facts to back this up?




Twitter is not the be-all-end-all of online discourse, and it's only one website, of which there are literally trillions.



More to the point, what does this have to do with anything? Let's say you're correct with the assumption that 1 out of every 3 players posts online about Smash. Okay, and...? What does that have to do with my point? Are you saying that everyone who isn't complaining about it online must necessarily have a positive opinion on Smash Ultimate? How do you know this? How do you know the majority of those silent gamers don't agree with me that it is a heavily flawed game?

Seems to me you're jumping to a lot of foregone conclusions or at least implying things that you don't know to be true.

Do you have proof that a large majority of 20 million people talk about Smash online?


One's easier to prove than the other.

Hint, it's my point.


You're trying to tell me that a majority of 20 million people, the estimated current total of sales of Ultimate, talk about it online... and no, they don't.


If you seriously believe this, I have a bridge I'll sell you for 5 bucks down in Louisiana.

 

[PsychoJosh]

No, he made it pretty clear.

No he didn't. All he said was that he was "filled with a fuzzy feeling" over seeing people in tears. That could mean he was a degenerate who gets off to seeing people upset and it is not at all a leap to see his statement that way since there was no such clarification on whether they were tears of joy or sadness.

Do you have proof that a large majority of 20 million people talk about Smash online?


One's easier to prove than the other.

Hint, it's my point.


You're trying to tell me that a majority of 20 million people, the estimated current total of sales of Ultimate, talk about it online... and no, they don't.

No. This has nothing to do with anything I've been talking about. I haven't been "trying to tell you" that a majority of Smash players talk about it online. I said the onus was on you to provide proof because all it seems like you're doing is jumping to conclusions. And even so I even less understand what this has to do with my other points.