Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Michael the Spikester]

Watch FP5 be Hollow Knight.

Seen that coming did ya?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

So today our deconfirmations are:
Nightmare
KOS MOS
Prof Layton
Jibanyan(Thank ****)
Agumon
Heihachi
Any Dark Souls rep

So either the leakers are wrong or DLC 5 is way out there

Why you gotta do my boy Jybanyan like that ey?

 

[SNEKeater]

I'm starting to think that we might be jinxing Phoenix.

 

[PsySmasher]

I originally typed up this post as a response to another post from several pages back, but I decided to save it for another day, and I think now would be a good time to put it out...

Your Honors, submitted for your approval: The Case and Evidence for Phoenix Wright in Smash.

• For one, Phoenix Wright fits nicely into the Fighters Pass as "third party character from a series completely new to Smash", since Ace Attorney has had zero content in previous Smash games or Ultimate's base game. Not only that, he's owned by Capcom, a third party company who so far has been perfectly cooperative with allowing their stuff into Smash.
• The Ace Attorney series is much, much bigger than people realize. True, it's no Resident Evil or Monster Hunter... but it still has 11 games (6 mainline games, 4 spin-off games, and 1 crossover game with Professor Layton), crossover appearances in other games such as Marvel vs. Capcom and Project X Zone, adaptations to anime, manga, a live action film, light novels, musicals, orchestra concerts, drama CDs, stage plays... it may be similar to Dragon Quest in that it's more popular in Japan than in the west, but the popularity of Ace Attorney is still nothing to sneeze at.
• People tend to bring up Nintendo relevance and appearances on their consoles as an advantage (I certainly know that people have brought it up in regards to Resident Evil), even if Cloud and Joker show that it technically isn't necessary. Well, the Ace Attorney series has been a Nintendo exclusive for almost its entire life, making its home on Nintendo handhelds like the Game Boy Advance, DS, and 3DS. It wasn't until the Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Trilogy HD release that the series was finally on non-Nintendo consoles.
• People also tend to bring up Sakurai discussing and acknowledging a series as another advantage (such as arguing for Gordon Freeman by pointing out Sakurai praising the Half-Life games). In 2005, Sakurai wrote a Famitsu column commenting on the TGS promo videos for the Ace Attorney DS ports, noting how the presentation stood out to him, and if that isn't enough, here's a 2016 photo of Sakurai hanging out with Shu Takumi, the creator of the Ace Attorney games and director of the original trilogy. Granted, that photo could mean absolutely nothing in regards to Smash, but if there was anything to take away from it, it's that Sakurai and Takumi are likely on good terms, meaning negotiating for Phoenix Wright would be easier.

... granted, I say all this knowing of the possibility that Phoenix Wright won't be Fighter 5... but at the very least, all this shows that he's just likely in general, whether for Fighter 5 or post-Pass.

I must admit, I did underestimate a bit how big AA is in general as a series and how likely it'd be to get into Smash.

But you make some good points here.

Still not much a supporter of Phoenix myself...

But if Ultimate MvC3 is anything to go by, you can make a fighting game moveset for him.

So... if Sakurai could get creative w/ him in Smash in the same vein that Capcom did w/ him in UMvC3 (but not exactly the same), then I'd be interested to see that happen.

 

[BlackInk]

Why would they accurately disclose a character and make the leakbait just when he was set to release? Leakbait is providing a false character.

People saying Hero would be the first DLC was based on assumption since he was leaked so far in advance of any other DLC.

Hero was probably in the base game with a completely design till they were ultimately scrapped from the game. I thought the data thing was used to back Verge’s claim of Hero being fighter #1 instead of the other way around.

edit: sorry for the typo of “5” instead of “1”

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I'm starting to think that we might be jinxing Phoenix.

 

[AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea]

Sabi manages their stuff well and they’re more careful than Verge.

Vergeben waits to ensure his info is correct before opening his mouth, meanwhile Sabi throws whatever **** they hear at the wall, in the case they're right.

"I've heard heavy Dante rumors" only to shoot him down in the span of half an hour. Sure is careful management

 

[BlackInk]

No, it's denial to never complain about any of the previous deconfirming claims from Verg or Sabi, and when it contradicts the outcome you thought would happen, that's when you start calling into question the credibility of the leaker.

I actually have to when I’m looking and considering marketing. I just don’t see a Namco leaving the (formally) last dlc with next to representation from a playable rep or miis.

 

[MooMew64]

You’re thinking things the wrong way. They have a real schedule and they have fakes around to mislead people severely. They planned Hero as fighter #2 and they told others he’s fighter #1. The fakes could also get them to discover disloyal employees.

Or, maaaaaaaybeeeeee

Verge heard about the initial negotiations for Hero way back last year, was confused for if it was for base game, and looked into it. Upon investigating, his sources were able to inform him about the final roster being Ken and Incineroar, which lead to Verge reaching the conclusion that DLC #1 was this SE character, due to not having any leads on anybody else.

This, in turn, gets us to the conclusion that Erdrick being #1 was an assumption on Verge's part, and not Nintendo trying to blindside one random guy,

There is no grand conspiracy.

 

[BZL8]

This is the punishment for spamming Harada; he’s going out there and eliminating every wanted character and company left and right.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Hero was probably in the base game with a completely design till they were ultimately scrapped from the game. I thought the data thing was used to back Verge’s claim of Hero being fighter #5 instead of the other way around.

Vergeben had seven Square Enix character names told to him, which a guy who talked to him leaked sometime before December last year, and Verg got confirmation it would be “Erdrick” and I guess (idk) his source thought he’d be Fighter 1 in the pass. Another leaker on ResetEra thought Erdrick was in, too, but I forgot his name; he was the same guy leaked Cloud in some cryptic way not long before his Smash 4 reveal.

Why would they tell someone the right character but the wrong order? The whole point of leakbait is to completely hide their info, not give some of it away and then mess with them.

 

[N3ON]

Hero was probably in the base game with a completely design till they were ultimately scrapped from the game. I thought the data thing was used to back Verge’s claim of Hero being fighter #5 instead of the other way around.

People finding out about another SE character happened around the same time as they found out about a Microsoft character, it's just that Verg never caught wind of the latter, so such things were never made public. The DLC was set earlier than some people realize, so it leaking was fair game.

Some ships just leak easier than others.

 

[BlackInk]

Or, maaaaaaaybeeeeee

Verge heard about the initial negotiations for Hero way back last year, was confused for if it was for base game, and looked into it. Upon investigating, his sources were able to inform him about the final roster being Ken and Incineroar, which lead to Verge reaching the conclusion that DLC #1 was this SE character, due to not having any leads on anybody else.

This, in turn, gets us to the conclusion that Erdrick being #1 was an assumption on Verge's part, and not Nintendo trying to blindside one random guy,

There is no grand conspiracy.

The thing we know for sure is that the guy is too overconfident. I can trust him with fighters, but the spots of fighters is another story.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

This is the punishment for spamming Harada; he’s going out there and eliminating every wanted character and company left and right.

Fighter 5 is actually Harada himself, so fed up with people spamming their Smash requests that he's decided to jump into Smash Bros. himself just to beat the **** out of your main as revenge.

 

[Deleted member]

The thing we know for sure is that the guy is too overconfident.

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[N3ON]

I actually have to when I’m looking and considering marketing. I just don’t see a Namco leaving the (formally) last dlc with next to representation from a playable rep or miis.

You're also assuming the Miis haven't been shifted around to accommodate the characters chosen after those in the pass.

 

[culumon]

I'm not gonna chastise anyone for not playing Ace Attorney or anything... but it is weird to me that "people only know/like/want Phoenix because of UMvC3!!!" is a take I've seen multiple times now. Circa 2006-2011 felt like you couldn't go anywhere video game-adjacent on the internet without seeing that Objection! bubble somewhere along your travels. The series may not be a sales juggernaut, but I feel it's pretty damn well known among the game-playing populace, all things considered.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Many of the third-parties we have in Smash aren't as iconic as we think they are, just like certain Nintendo characters aren't as popular as Nintendo fans think they are.

Yes, there's far more third-parties with a lot more "fire power" than there are first-party, but that doesn't mean anyone and everyone will be a ground-breaking addition to the casuals you're referring to. Feel free to disagree, but I honestly think any of the three characters I mentioned would be more recognizable than Terry or Joker.

Recognizable? Sure. But that goes back to the idea of "comfort" that you previously mentioned.

Smash Bros. doesn't always go for the recognizable and comfortable picks. Otherwise we wouldn't have gotten Piranha Plant, Terry, Joker, etc. These characters are good additions because they push the boundaries of Smash Bros. in new and exciting ways. Piranha Plant was an off-the-wall first party pick, and while initially divisive has become well-received due to how bonkers he is as a character. No one thought Joker had a chance (you could say we didn't see him coming) and he set an exciting precedent for Ultimate DLC consisting of absolute hype-bomb characters from new and unexpected series. Terry brought with him a large part of fighting game history and brought King of Fighters' influence on Smash Bros. full circle with official acknowledgement.

Characters bring more to Smash than being recognizable, popular, influential, iconic, historic, etc, and it is a combination of these factors and more that lead to a character's inclusion. Sure, the characters you listed might be more recognizable in a certain part of the fanbase, but that doesn't make them any better of inclusions, nor does it mean that they can stack up to characters who possess these traits in larger quantities.

This argument is also ignoring the larger shift away from Nintendo properties that's occurred through the course of Sm4sh and Ultimate, which plays a prominent part in speculation today. You can dislike or disagree with this shift, but it is a decision that Sakurai and co. seem to have made and comment on often.

 

[MooMew64]

I'm not gonna chastise anyone for not playing Ace Attorney or anything... but it is weird to me that "people only know/like/want Phoenix because of UMvC3!!!" is a take I've seen multiple times now. Circa 2006-2011 felt like you couldn't go anywhere video game-adjacent on the internet without seeing that Objection! bubble somewhere along your travels. The series may not be a sales juggernaut, but I feel it's pretty damn well known among the game-playing populace, all things considered.

Especially if you're a Nintendo fan that owned a DS.

People actin' like he's a straight up nobody is really leaving me confused and kind of disappointed in the Smash community.

 

[[Maple]]

Watch FP5 be Hollow Knight.

Seen that coming did ya?

My body is ready

 

[BlackInk]

You're also assuming the Miis haven't been shifted around to accommodate the characters chosen after those in the pass.

They are also working on multiple characters at once, working on trailers, creating new miis, making deals with people in order to make new miis, and music. Rearranging miis in a middle of a pass doesn’t sound practical.

 

[SpectreJordan]

I hope the leakers just keep up at this deconfirmation game & don’t reveal who it is. This is getting really juicy & I want it to be a surprise.

 

[[Maple]]

TBH I think you guys are trying to make shortcut and only pointing a few names just because they are popular.

Almost no one predicted Terry because SNK is not very popular nowdays but the wolf got in.

 

[MooMew64]

Hey DaybreakHorizon , how are ya feeling about Sora?

I'm gonna heckin' scream if it happens. Wouldn't be able to promise I wouldn't cry a bit either, lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey DaybreakHorizon , how are ya feeling about Sora?

I'm gonna heckin' scream if it happens. Wouldn't be able to promise I wouldn't cry a bit either, lol.

I know I'll cry

for a different reason

 

[Roberk]

It's all fun and games until a LoL character or some other character that reps a big thing in the overall gaming industry that is overlooked by Smash speculation gets in.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

Especially if you're a Nintendo fan that owned a DS.

People actin' like he's a straight up nobody is really leaving me confused and kind of disappointed in the Smash community.

Imagine if the general Smash fanbase reacted to Phoenix Wright by calling him "literally who" and claiming no one was asking for him, just like they did with Hero and Terry...

... on second thought, don't imagine it.

 

[Deleted member]

I know I'll cry

for a different reason

If its Sora, it was an honor. I will press my most solemn F.

 

[KillerCage]

View attachment 249114

Spoiler: Things against this

There is nothing wrong with this

can’t wait for the lawyer

Baseless objections are contemptible in court.
Do you want in contempt of court?

 

[MooMew64]

Imagine if the general Smash fanbase reacted to Phoenix Wright by calling him "literally who" and claiming no one was asking for him...

... on second thought, don't imagine it.

I'll know how Terry fans felt.

 

[BlackInk]

Pot, meet kettle.

Yeah and you barley do anything.

I'm not gonna chastise anyone for not playing Ace Attorney or anything... but it is weird to me that "people only know/like/want Phoenix because of UMvC3!!!" is a take I've seen multiple times now. Circa 2006-2011 felt like you couldn't go anywhere video game-adjacent on the internet without seeing that Objection! bubble somewhere along your travels. The series may not be a sales juggernaut, but I feel it's pretty damn well known among the game-playing populace, all things considered.

who in the hell says that? Has anyone actually played the games? It’s tense, fun, wacky, and flashy.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Waiting for Sabi to check and see if it’s Porky and then going completely silent because HE’S IN YOU PIGS’ BUTTS.

 

[N3ON]

They are also working on multiple characters at once, working on trailers, creating new miis, making deals with people in order to make new miis, and music. Rearranging miis in a middle of a pass doesn’t sound practical.

Ok. So character, stage, mii (and sometimes mode) creation, balancing, negotiating with the third-parties, and then dealing with the composers and the company the trailers are outsourced to, but rescheduling a mii's release is the straw that breaks the camel's back, is it?

You sure you want to go with this argument?

 

[GKMLTTSB]

It's all fun and games until a LoL character or some other character that reps a big thing in the overall gaming industry that is overlooked by Smash speculation gets in.

Meepo from DotA 2.
There's your Valve rep.

 

[KillerCage]

Imagine if the general Smash fanbase reacted to Phoenix Wright by calling him "literally who" and claiming no one was asking for him, just like they did with Hero and Terry...

... on second thought, don't imagine it.

That gif is perfect.
I wouldn't be mad if Sora made it in over Phoenix.
I see that as a win-win.

 

[NintenZ]

TBH I think you guys are trying to make shortcut and only pointing a few names just because they are popular.

Almost no one predicted Terry because SNK is not very popular nowdays but the wolf got in.

Am I a joke to you people?

 

[culumon]

Especially if you're a Nintendo fan that owned a DS.

People actin' like he's a straight up nobody is really leaving me confused and kind of disappointed in the Smash community.

One of the statements I've seen come out of all of this that's really put into perspective how much the speculation game has changed as of late is "but Dante deserved to get in Smash before Phoenix!". Obviously deservedness vis-a-vis Smash is a completely nonsense concept, it comes down to whoever the hell Sakurai wants to put in, and Dante + Devil May Cry as a whole are gaming juggernauts who I'd be totally down seeing get into Smash, but... imagine seeing that statement in the pre-Cloud days. A character with 100% attendance on Nintendo systems who helped define the DS era for a lot of players, less deserving to be in a Nintendo fighting game than one of the PlayStation 2's poster boys who only just recently made his way onto Nintendo systems. We truly live in a different era.

 

[Deleted member]

Meepo from DotA 2.
There's your Valve rep.

I can barely micromanage Olimar's Pikmin I doubt I could manage 5 different characters at once

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Hey DaybreakHorizon , how are ya feeling about Sora?

I'm gonna heckin' scream if it happens. Wouldn't be able to promise I wouldn't cry a bit either, lol.

I think he's got a real solid chance right now. Like, when I say it's 50/50, I mean it's 50/50. Disney seems to be warming up to gaming as a whole, and is looking for opportunities to promote their IPs, Kingdom Hearts included. Alongside Sora's popularity both in and outside of the Smash fanbase (I'd wager he was at least Top 25, if not Top 10 in the Ballot) I think we've got ourselves a solid contender for Smash DLC. There's a miniscule chance he's Fighter #5, but I give him a good chance of headlining or being a mid-hype booster for Pass 2.

I'm with you on the crying bit too. I took this from a Discord server I'm on:

Not only will the series I've grown up with and loved since I was a child be in, but I'll also kill @Bolderousness in the process.

 

[N3ON]

Meepo from DotA 2.
There's your Valve rep.

Get your own sarcastic examples