Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Daedulus]

Right I'm not claiming that the Links are echos, I'm saying that their movesets are so similar that if given the option I would rather get a new character with a unique moveset. At the end of the day there are 3 versions of Link on the roster, its silly even before they all play almost exactly the same.

I really don't think they play the same, young is all about speed and great at rushing in, pluss that LON LON MILK boi, Toon link really is more important than you think, He represents the 2d games, like 4 four swords, minish cap, Phantom hourglass, Spirit tracks, Triforce heroes and really link between worlds. I grew up with handheld zeldas as much as I did console zeldas, just because their similar, doesn't mean their bad characters and it's not like they took away Ravio or impas chance to join the roster.

 

[IsmaR]

Sakurai kept them similar but slightly updated to appease to fans of how they characters played in the previous games. There's nuance stuff that people who don't main the characters wouldn't think matters much (Wolf has a similar N-air to Fox compared to his old one, for example), but each small thing means a lot to those that love the character (see the large playerbase that would be upset if they completely decloned/reworked Ganondorf more than they did now).

Again, what doesn't seem significant to you because "you'd rather something else in its place" doesn't mean everyone feels that way. Having the title "Link" in the name does not make Link/YL/TL any less important than say Fox/Falco/Wolf or Mario/Luigi/Doctor Mario (I'd even argue Pikachu/Pichu, Ness/Lucas, Captain Falcon/Ganondorf, Marth/Roy, Villager/Isabelle and Ryu/Ken).

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

We talking about Zelda characters again?
Here's some of the characters I would like to see playable.

 

[KloupLoup]

We talking about Zelda characters again?
Here's some of the characters I would like to see playable.
View attachment 182634

what would mr.tingle do for a moveset though? same with pig ganon. skullkid could be cool if done in a creative way

 

[shocktarts17]

I really don't think they play the same, young is all about speed and great at rushing in, pluss that LON LON MILK boi, Toon link really is more important than you think, He represents the 2d games, like 4 four swords, minish cap, Phantom hourglass, Spirit tracks, Triforce heroes and really link between worlds. I grew up with handheld zeldas as much as I did console zeldas, just because their similar, doesn't mean their bad characters and it's not like they took away Ravio or impas chance to join the roster.

Sakurai kept them similar but slightly updated to appease to fans of how they characters played in the previous games. There's nuance stuff that people who don't main the characters wouldn't think matters much (Wolf has a similar N-air to Fox compared to his old one, for example), but each small thing means a lot to those that love the character (see the large playerbase that would be upset if they completely decloned/reworked Ganondorf more than they did now).

Again, what doesn't seem significant to you because "you'd rather something else in its place" doesn't mean everyone feels that way. Having the title "Link" in the name does not make Link/YL/TL any less important than say Fox/Falco/Wolf or Mario/Luigi/Doctor Mario.

You guys keep focusing on the differences trying to convince me they are different but they aren't, they are semi-clones at the most generous. There is nothing wrong with semi-clones but there are two semi-clones for the same moveset, who also happen to be the SAME PERSON. And you point out Fox/Falco/Wolf and Mario/Luigi/Dr Mario but I don't think any of them need two semi-clones either, but at least they aren't all the exact same person.

I'm not even saying we can't have one semi-clone of Link, though if we're doing that I'd still prefer it to be a different character, but when you have two semi-clones its too much. And no amount of minor differences make up for the fact that I would rather see a completely new moveset over the same thing rehashed three times.

If you want representation for different Zelda games get different characters, there are tons of them. I say this as a huge Zelda fan that the Zelda series needs help just as much, if not more than the Fire Emblem series.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

what would mr.tingle do for a moveset though? same with pig ganon. skullkid could be cool if done in a creative way

Some ideas for Tingle.

And some Ganon ideas.

 

[shocktarts17]

We talking about Zelda characters again?
Here's some of the characters I would like to see playable.
View attachment 182634

Do Ganon fans want him instead of Ganondorf or as well? I don't think I would want to give up Ganondorf for Ganon considering how often Ganon is depicted as huge I worry he would suffer the same way Ridley does.

 

[Daedulus]

Do Ganon fans want him instead of Ganondorf or as well? I don't think I would want to give up Ganondorf for Ganon considering how often Ganon is depicted as huge I worry he would suffer the same way Ridley does.

We really don't need ganon, I want somebody different, of course not getting rid of the link clones

 

[KloupLoup]

Some ideas for Tingle.

And some Ganon ideas.

you know I'm still iffy on tingle but they can DEFINTELY do something with ganon.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Do Ganon fans want him instead of Ganondorf or as well? I don't think I would want to give up Ganondorf for Ganon considering how often Ganon is depicted as huge I worry he would suffer the same way Ridley does.

Don't let other people's opinions peer pressure you into supporting or rejecting certain characters. Support characters you want because you want them, not because they're popular.
But if you need a consensus...
When it comes to Ganon size-wise, he's generally seen as being an acceptable playable size in the 2D Zelda games, though a hulking titan in the 3D games. I personally want 2D Ganon as he would be a "true" representative of the 2D Zeldas.

 

[KloupLoup]

yeah these are kinda some of the more obvious LOZ options. Are there any more obscure or less talked about characters who might be good choices
?

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

yeah these are kinda some of the more obvious LOZ options. Are there any more obscure or less talked about characters who might be good choices
?

Marin?

She's from Link's Awakening, another generally beloved Zelda classic.

 

[shocktarts17]

yeah these are kinda some of the more obvious LOZ options. Are there any more obscure or less talked about characters who might be good choices
?

Ravio.

I 100% think he would be better than each of those. (Though my knowledge of Vaati is limited so I'd probably have a tough time there.)

 

[KloupLoup]

Don't let other people's opinions peer pressure you into supporting or rejecting certain characters. Support characters you want because you want them, not because they're popular.
But if you need a consensus...
When it comes to Ganon size-wise, he's generally seen as being an acceptable playable size in the 2D Zelda games, though a hulking titan in the 3D games. I personally want 2D Ganon as he would be a "true" representative of the 2D Zeldas.

that's a fair point about true representation, sense toon link is in the purest form link...although is ganon in purest form ganondorph?

 

[shocktarts17]

that's a fair point about true representation, sense toon link is in the purest form link...although is ganon in purest form ganondorph?

Why is Toon Link the purest form of Link? And why is Ganon the purest form of Ganondorf?

 

[SPEN18]

A character you don't like the idea of does not necessarily mean they're taking up the "slot" of something you would prefer.

There are plenty of people who love/mained/play each individual Link, Mario, Samus, Marth, and even Pit. I understand wanting the Links to have more of their original game's flair (particularly Toon Link), but cutting them is not a guarantee "we get a unique newcomer in their place." That's not how Sakurai does things.

I mean, development resources are limited, so by default anything that gets added makes anything you'd prefer less likely. It's definitely not a one-to-one thing where "if X was removed then we'd definitely have Y" but it's fair to say that resources could or should have been allocated elsewhere when evaluating a particular character's inclusion.

 

[KloupLoup]

Marin?

She's from Link's Awakening, another generally beloved Zelda classic.

you know what this makes me think. we don't have any music based characters do we? if her harp is like her main thing she could use music projectiles, and sound moves

 

[GoodGrief741]

As a solution to the Fire Emblem problem, I think Sakurai should put on his thinking pants and slowly Luigify them (and cut Corrin).

As for Zelda, just pick better characters lmao.

 

[KloupLoup]

Why is Toon Link the purest form of Link? And why is Ganon the purest form of Ganondorf?

no I mean toon link at the end of the day is another incarnation of link, but is ganon an incarnation of ganondorph or are they separate entities

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

that's a fair point about true representation, sense toon link is in the purest form link...although is ganon in purest form ganondorph?

To put Ganon in context of series importance...
Out of every Zelda game ever released, Ganondorf has only ever appeared in three. Four if you count Hyrule Warriors. Ganon far surpasses him in appearances.
And the series generally implies that Ganondorf isn't his true form, just a humanoid shell waiting for the chance to turn into the giant piggy he was meant to be.
Personally I see no reason why Ganon and Ganondorf can't be in the same game, considering Zelda and Samus.

 

[KloupLoup]

To put Ganon in context of series importance...
Out of every Zelda game ever released, Ganondorf has only ever appeared in three. Four if you count Hyrule Warriors. Ganon far surpasses him in appearances.
And the series generally implies that Ganondorf isn't his true form, just a humanoid shell waiting for the chance to turn into the giant piggy he was meant to be.
Personally I see no reason why Ganon and Ganondorf can't be in the same game, considering Zelda and Samus.

that's a fair point. honestly as a fan of heavies the idea is starting to grow on me. If they were to add ganon though I would think you might want to add another character in no way related to link Zelda or ganon/ganondorph just so theres no complaints

is there a Zelda that's super unrepresented or underappreciated, if so a character could be brought from there as a curveball.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

who also happen to be the SAME PERSON

Spoiler alert: They're not. Have you played any of the Legend of Zelda games? Because like, you're not making a good case for that with this statement. At all.

Also, the Smash Links are very different in playstyle and in execution, especially in Ultimate. Just because they share similar stuff in their kit (e.g. specials) doesn't mean that it all works the exact same. I mean, just as a couple of quick examples: BotW!Link has remote bombs, which function radically different than any of his other incarnations in-game; he also has a standing grab instead of a tether one.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

that's a fair point. honestly as a fan of heavies the idea is starting to grow on me. If they were to add ganon though I would think you might want to add another character in no way related to link Zelda or ganon/ganondorph just so theres no complaints

is there a Zelda that's super unrepresented or underappreciated, if so a character could be brought from there as a curveball.

While on that topic, I made a scale mockup comparing a theoretical playable Ganon to the other heavies.

As for underappreciated Zeldas...I wouldn't say no to Onyx and Veran from the Oracle games.

Spoiler

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm actually surprised that the young Skyword Sword version of Impa wasn't added as an echo fighter of Shiek.

 

[shocktarts17]

Spoiler alert: They're not. Have you played any of the Legend of Zelda games? Because like, you're not making a good case for that with this statement. At all.

Also, the Smash Links are very different in playstyle and in execution, especially in Ultimate. Just because they share similar stuff in their kit (e.g. specials) doesn't mean that it all works the exact same. I mean, just as a couple of quick examples: BotW!Link has remote bombs, which function radically different than any of his other incarnations in-game; he also has a standing grab instead of a tether one.

Smooth Criminal

Yes I have but its not even the point. Compare Link/Young LINK/Toon LINK to say Marth. Both use a sword but they play very different. You guys keep trying to point out their minor differences (his bombs remote vs the other bombs don't) but they all start from the same place (its all a bomb that they pull out and throw as their down B).

And once again, I am not saying cut them out because they don't belong. If Sakurai comes out and says that the different Links took less development time and didn't take time away from other characters then there would be no problem. But no matter what you say I would rather have a unique moveset then everyone having slight variations of the same thing.

No one would play a game where everyone had all the same attacks but one was remote vs triggered and this one had two swings instead of one, honestly I cannot believe I am having to defend wanting more unique fighters than semi-clones.

And at the end of this whole thing was the fact that the discussion started as a way to fix the representation in a way that used the same number of unique vs echo fighters in the series. Are you honestly saying you prefer Link and Young Link and Toon Link over Link and Skull Kid and Midna?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yes I have but its not even the point. Compare Link/Young LINK/Toon LINK to say Marth. Both use a sword but they play very different. You guys keep trying to point out their minor differences (his bombs remote vs the other bombs don't) but they all start from the same place (its all a bomb that they pull out and throw as their down B).

All of the Links' bombs have unique properties and applications, as well as very unique characteristics in other parts of their toolset, and yet

> hones in on the fact that they're bombs and nothing more

Is all I'm getting from this. It's fine that you want more unique fighters and stuff like that, but you're patently wrong saying that the Links don't play differently from one another. These slight variations that you're speaking of aren't very slight in practice, nor in execution.

Smooth Criminal

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Here's the deal: The differances between the Links may not be numerous, but they are substantial when it comes to play style. It is a matter of opinion whether or not the characters' feel is different enough.

Are you honestly saying you prefer Link and Young Link and Toon Link over Link and Skull Kid and Midna?

Yes. I despise cuts.

 

[shocktarts17]

All of the Links' bombs have unique properties and applications, as well as very unique characteristics in other parts of their toolset, and yet

> hones in on the fact that they're bombs and nothing more

Is all I'm getting from this. It's fine that you want more unique fighters and stuff like that, but you're patently wrong saying that the Links don't play differently from one another. These slight variations that you're speaking of aren't very slight in practice, nor in execution.

Smooth Criminal

And you're honing in on the fact that I'm saying they're similar. At no point did I ever say they were exactly the same. Several times I have stated that I agree they are more than echos and closer to semi-clones, all I am saying is that they are 100% not unique fighters which is what I would prefer. And if given an opportunity to remove semi-clones for unique characters I would take it.

 

[SPEN18]

Yes. I despise cuts.

Okay, I can see why one would prefer no cuts, but even if one character is objectively more notable and deserving, you still wouldn't put them in at the cost of a few measly clones? Opposing any and all cuts just on principle is kind of like surrending to Sakurai and blindly agreeing with anything he does. Sakurai isn't perfect, and the roster isn't perfect. Sometimes cuts need to be made to make the roster better overall.

And if given an opportunity to remove semi-clones for unique characters I would take it.

Keep in mind that "replacements" aren't one-for-one. But yeah, I'd cut both the extra Links in exchange for Skull Kid.

 

[shocktarts17]

Keep in mind that "replacements" aren't one-to-one. But yeah, I'd cut both the extra Links in exchange for Skull Kid.

Oh I know, dev time exists on a gradient not in black and white. But for this discussion I was keeping it simple where anyone not an echo uses one unique slot and echos get their own separate slot.

EDIT: speaking of the discussion, this got horribly derailed from the original Fire Emblem discussion lol. But I'm enjoying the discussion regardless.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Opposing any and all cuts just on principle is kind of like surrending to Sakurai and blindly agreeing with anything he does.

No. I don't just agree with everything. I don't agree with Pac-Land being added instead of Pac-Maze. I don't agree with changing Pit's quote from "The fight is on!" to just "Come on!". I don't agree with keeping Chrom in Robin's final smash. I don't agree with Pac-Man's alternate costumes. You get the point. I just don't like omitting characters from past games. Call me overemotional or say I get way too attatched I don't care. That's just how I feel...Wait a minute why are we talking about cutting characters anyway? The game's less than a week old!

 

[Flyboy]

No. I don't just agree with everything. I don't agree with Pac-Land being added instead of Pac-Maze. I don't agree with changing Pit's quote from "The fight is on!" to just "Come on!". I don't agree with keeping Chrom in Robin's final smash. I don't agree with Pac-Man's alternate costumes. You get the point. I just don't like omitting characters from past games. Call me overemotional or say I get way too attatched I don't care. That's just how I feel...Wait a minute why are we talking about cutting characters anyway? The game's less than a week old!

The paradox of the Smash fandom is to desire new content while also wanting less.

 

[shocktarts17]

The paradox of the Smash fandom is to desire new content while also wanting less.

In a perfect world there wouldn't have to be cuts, but since people want different things and everything takes time to make the only way for me to get what I want is for someone to lose what they want.

 

[Flyboy]

In a perfect world there wouldn't have to be cuts, but since people want different things and everything takes time to make the only way for me to get what I want is for someone to lose what they want.

I just hope they keep adding to and patching and porting Ultimate constantly if I'm real. But I just like having a trillion characters.

 

[shocktarts17]

I just hope they keep adding to and patching and porting Ultimate constantly if I'm real. But I just like having a trillion characters.

Yeah I think they're in a pretty good place with the overall game, so if they decided to hold off development of the next game for the next console and continue to support Smash with more content I'd be pretty happy.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Okay, I can see why one would prefer no cuts, but even if one character is objectively more notable and deserving, you still wouldn't put them in at the cost of a few measly clones? Opposing any and all cuts just on principle is kind of like surrending to Sakurai and blindly agreeing with anything he does. Sakurai isn't perfect, and the roster isn't perfect. Sometimes cuts need to be made to make the roster better overall.



Keep in mind that "replacements" aren't one-for-one. But yeah, I'd cut both the extra Links in exchange for Skull Kid.

Most people who want cuts tend to not focus on gameplay. I would hate having one Link unless he gets the speed boost his clones have.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

So I was thinking about Toon Ganondorf and how he used to have a lot of support because fans wanted him to have dual swords.
I put my own spin on the idea.

 

[KloupLoup]

So I was thinking about Toon Ganondorf and how he used to have a lot of support because fans wanted him to have dual swords.
I put my own spin on the idea.

View attachment 182707

that's a cool idea, but I feel a staff character would be more interesting and unique, and although they would play VASTLY differently Pit does duel wield swords as well. Also can you explain to me why everyone was so angry about all the sword characters in smash 4, but were clamering and extatic when Ganondorth was shown using his sword in ultimate? is it only sense it distinguishes him more from falcon?

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

that's a cool idea, but I feel a staff character would be more interesting and unique, and although they would play VASTLY differently Pit does duel wield swords as well. Also can you explain to me why everyone was so angry about all the sword characters in smash 4, but were clamering and extatic when Ganondorth was shown using his sword in ultimate? is it only sense it distinguishes him more from falcon?

The idea I had for Ganon is that, much like K. Rool, he has a tendency of throwing his bling around in battle like a boomerang. The dual swords would act as a backup weapon until Ganon's trident returned.

Also those who wanted Ganondorf to have a sword probably outweighed the FE oversaturation, even if it is mostly cosmetic, since people have wanted him to have his own moveset for a while. He still feels a bit cloney to me, so I won't be completely satisfied with Ganondorf until he gets a projectile.

 

[KloupLoup]

The idea I had for Ganon is that, much like K. Rool, he has a tendency of throwing his bling around in battle like a boomerang. The dual swords would act as a backup weapon until Ganon's trident returned.

Also those who wanted Ganondorf to have a sword probably outweighed the FE oversaturation, even if it is mostly cosmetic, since people have wanted him to have his own moveset for a while. He still feels a bit cloney to me, so I won't be completely satisfied with Ganondorf until he gets a projectile.

that idea makes sense, but th trident seems like a pretty bis projectile, and if he switched to the dual swords he would need new attacks because swords probably would look weird with staff animation and hitboxes, so I think it would have to be one or the other, and the trident would return or respawn like k rools crown. on the Ganondorph thing, even if he is "cloney" he's fun and unique. he's got unique culture and following, so I don't think it would be worth it to change him.