Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[NobleClamtasm]

I mean, I guess? If you’re going to speak in relative terms, there are tons of characters that appeal more to the Japanese population than a Persona character.

We don’t know the rest of DLC, but we know it’ll at least have a level of worldwide recognizability on par with or surpassing Joker’s. For all we know, it’s a bunch of anime guys like Sora and Lloyd Irving, or it’s Crash, Doomguy and Banjo. But Touhou just can’t boast worldwide recognizability, and all the Japanese bias can’t help it with that.

It's not like Japan exclusivity (which is a term I'm using very loosely in reference Touhou btw) is a limiting factor for character selections though. We saw Lucas's inclusion and Marth/Roy in Melee which were Japanese exclusive at the time.

Eh, touhou's spread far enough so that I think people have seen it, even if they don't know what it is and assume it's just an anime.

It's... definitely not even close to P5 level, and isn't exactly the most profitable decision though.

Touhou would actually be a very profitable selection. This is a community that has funded entire conventions for years. Also, Touhou has the most remixed tracks of any video game music, with literally hundreds of albums created and sold at conventions. Having iconic Touhou music included in the fighter pass would increase the value of her DLC pack significantly. And don't even try to argue that the growing weeb population in the West wouldn't immediately hop on board.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

We don’t know the rest of DLC, but we know it’ll at least have a level of worldwide recognizability on par with or surpassing Joker’s. For all we know, it’s a bunch of anime guys like Sora and Lloyd Irving, or it’s Crash, Doomguy and Banjo.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say we won't get Lloyd on account of him being an "anime" swordsmen. (I really hate this term.)
EDIT: There's also the fact that his moveset would be fairly basic.

It's not like Japan exclusivity (which is a term I'm using very loosely in reference Touhou btw) is a limiting factor for character selections though. We saw Lucas's inclusion and Marth/Roy in Melee which were Japanese exclusive at the time.

Sakurai didn't know that Fire Emblem hadn't had a world wide release when he decided to add Marth and Roy to Melee (I think it was implied that he wouldn't have added them had he known that.)

 

[NobleClamtasm]

Sakurai didn't know that Fire Emblem hadn't had a world wide release when he decided to add Marth and Roy to Melee (I think it was implied that he wouldn't have added them had he known that.)

You can make all the excuses you want. Just know that your arbitrary "rules" as to who can be a fighter don't actually exist. These rules have been broken before. A decade and a half ago, nobody in their right mind thought Snake, Sonic and Cloud could join Smash, yet here we are.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

You can make all the excuses you want. Just know that your arbitrary "rules" as to who can be a fighter don't actually exist. These rules have been broken before. A decade and a half ago, nobody in their right mind thought Snake, Sonic and Cloud could join Smash, yet here we are.

Eh, I'm just spewing facts that may or may not be distorted by my memory for the sake of talking about things. I do agree that the rule is there are no rules. It's better that way. Makes talking more fun.

 

[Icedragonadam]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say we won't get Lloyd on account of him being an "anime" swordsmen. (I really hate this term.)
EDIT: There's also the fact that his moveset would be fairly basic.


Sakurai didn't know that Fire Emblem hadn't had a world wide release when he decided to add Marth and Roy to Melee (I think it was implied that he wouldn't have added them had he known that.)

I don't think Sakurai cares about the Anime Swordsman thing. He adds characters with moveset potential regardless of having an anime style or uses swords.

As for the basic moveset thing. That isn't true. The Tales series battle system easily makes a Tales rep unique. It uses a skill tree where you combo from a lvl 1 to lvl 2 to lvl 3 skill. In Tales games these are set in a characters moves list. Tales of Graces has one half a character's movelist use just the basic attack button and using it again within the time frame and not getting hit to go to a lvl 2 attack and go up to lvl 4. Lloyd can easily use that for his B specials like for example, use demon fang and within the time frame and not getting hit, press B again to go to Double Demon Fang or another 2nd lvl attack depending on the direction of the stick direction. And going up to lvl 3.

Example of a later Tales games battle system(Graces) to get an idea for Lloyd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLsuCxEYmfw

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As for the basic moveset thing. That isn't true. The Tales series battle system easily makes a Tales rep unique. It uses a skill tree where you combo from a lvl 1 to lvl 2 to lvl 3 skill. In Tales games these are set in a characters moves list. Tales of Graces has one half a character's movelist use just the basic attack button and using it again within the time frame and not getting hit to go to a lvl 2 attack and go up to lvl 4. Lloyd can easily use that for his B specials like for example, use demon fang and within the time frame and not getting hit, press B again to go to Double Demon Fang or another 2nd lvl attack depending on the direction of the stick direction. And going up to lvl 3.

Example of a later Tales games battle system(Graces) to get an idea for Lloyd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLsuCxEYmfw

Really? I guess I wouln't know since I didn't get too far before getting stuck (The boss that's a little kid who's secretly a demon. There's no way to grind for preparation since you can't leave town.). Then my PS3 stopped reading discs. Most of what I got from the battle system was that you could combo moves into other moves, and Tempest was good against flying enemies. That and battles drained way too much mana (or I was aweful. Likely the latter).

Also, I have absolutely no idea what's going on in the video.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Sakurai didn't know that Fire Emblem hadn't had a world wide release when he decided to add Marth and Roy to Melee (I think it was implied that he wouldn't have added them had he known that.)

He also said that Lucas would not have been added had he known Mother 3 wasn't coming out here. That being said, lots of "rules" have been broken in the past few Smash games, so whatever.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

He also said that Lucas would not have been added had he known Mother 3 wasn't coming out here. That being said, lots of "rules" have been broken in the past few Smash games, so whatever.

Ah! I may have been confusing the two facts or switched Mother 3 with Fire Emblem...Not that it matters.

Anyway. I gotta head to bed.

 

[SPEN18]

'm gonna go out on a limb and say we won't get Lloyd on account of him being an "anime" swordsmen. (I really hate this term.)
EDIT: There's also the fact that his moveset would be fairly basic

Uhh...there are a few reasons why we might not get Lloyd, but I don't think him being an anime swordsman has anything to do with it. Lloyd can be plenty unique.
And his moveset could actually be fairly complicated if need be, but really a basic moveset isn't a bad thing and certainly isn't a reason to exclude a character.

And not to rain on anybody's parade, but I just don't see why anyone at Nintendo would choose Reimu. There's way more popular and way more notable characters even if they're just looking at Japan. She's not a strong marketing pick and uniqueness on its own isn't much, as pretty much any character can be made unique if they think hard enough.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

Uhh...there are a few reasons why we might not get Lloyd, but I don't think him being an anime swordsman has anything to do with it. Lloyd can be plenty unique.
And his moveset could actually be fairly complicated if need be, but really a basic moveset isn't a bad thing and certainly isn't a reason to exclude a character.

And not to rain on anybody's parade, but I just don't see why anyone at Nintendo would choose Reimu. There's way more popular and way more notable characters even if they're just looking at Japan. She's not a strong marketing pick and uniqueness on its own isn't much, as pretty much any character can be made unique if they think hard enough.

Well, it depends on your definition of popularity. If your definition is by how many GOTY awards it's received, it's metacritic score, or copies sold, then Touhou is at a severe disadvantage. It just doesn't have the same marketing push that other corporately-backed franchises have. You also have to consider that while Touhou originated as a gaming franchise, it's entirety comprises of artwork, albums, manga, and a few anime productions - all of which are fan made.

Which brings me to my next point: there are other metrics that can be used to measure popularity outside of traditional methods. For example, Reimu has an absurd amount of fanart on pixiv, and may as well be the most drawn video game character in Japan, overwhelming the likes of Mario, Pikachu and Sonic. Also, the fact that Touhou has a biannual convention dedicated entirely on it also speaks volumes of its popularity, as not many franchises can boast the same thing. So yeah, Reimu is popular, but it's a different type of popular. This is popularity which is driven entirely by the passion and dedication of its fanbase, that has the staying power to remain relevant in popular culture for nearly 2 decades since its inception, without corporate backing. I think this is something that's at least worth at least acknowledging if you're making a game that is supposed to be a culmination of gaming history in general.

Regarding your point about not being a strong marketing pick, I've addressed that on a previous statement.

I also want to mention out that Shovel Knight and Shantae's presence in Ultimate may have very well opened the doors for Reimu to be put into consideration. While shovel knight and Shantae may be popular in America, but they are miniscule compared to Touhou in Japan, which is regarded as the face of indie gaming. Through the lens of a Japanese person, if Shovel Knight and Shantae are able to be represented in the game as AT and spirit, making Reimu a playable character is the next logical step.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sakurai didn't know that Fire Emblem hadn't had a world wide release when he decided to add Marth and Roy to Melee (I think it was implied that he wouldn't have added them had he known that.)

Actually, he did. That more applies to Lucas. He almost didn't add Marth and Roy due to nobody knowing him in the West.

For Lucas, he almost didn't add him in Brawl after he found out Mother 3 was not getting localized. However, he decided to keep him in to appeal to Japanese fans with Ness for Western fans. There's an implication he might've cut Ness for Lucas(something he considered during Melee, but Mother 64 being cancelled changed his mind) during Brawl too, but in the end, he went with both. Once 4 came around, Lucas was removed when he had to make a choice of cutting less relevant characters. Wolf suffered the same fate(though it's not clear entirely why he was cut. He wasn't as popular as Falco, so it could've been he took a lot more time and since Star Fox was no longer getting a game soon as is, he had to cut one. Falco was probably easier to recreate, so that might've made him higher priority too. Ice Climbers and most of Pokemon Trainer were a result of 3DS limitations. Zelda/Sheik and Samus/Zero Suit Samus' split were more for balance reasons than 3DS problems alone).

I don't think it's impossible we'll get a Japanese only character again, but I doubt it's that likely. Same with Western only. But more importantly, he doesn't just go for Japanese bias anymore. Ridley was a Western choice, same with Little Mac. Now, it's obvious that this isn't just Sakurai's ballgame here. Nintendo is deciding the DLC choices overall, with either Sakurai just implementing how they work or him choosing a list of five from multiples. But he only has a certain amount of control.

 

[Daedulus]

How far is everybody with unlocking characters? Personally I'm on 53

 

[SPEN18]

Well, it depends on your definition of popularity. If your definition is by how many GOTY awards it's received, it's metacritic score, or copies sold, then Touhou is at a severe disadvantage. It just doesn't have the same marketing push that other corporately-backed franchises have.

To be fair, critical reception and copies sold do matter to some extent, although they certainly don't mean everything and have to be taken in context. They can make for a good starting point when evaluating a character, but usually you have to look further than just that. Typically you want at least one of these two things to stand out, though. For example, both Earthbound and Xenoblade did not sell well during their initial releases, but both were reviewed very well and became gaming classics; they're also both Nintendo franchises, which lowers the bar considerably. Having bad sales and having subpar critical reception doesn't automatically disqualify anybody in my eyes, but it makes it hard unless there's something else truly special about a game or character.

Which brings me to my next point: there are other metrics that can be used to measure popularity outside of traditional methods. For example, Reimu has an absurd amount of fanart on pixiv, and may as well be the most drawn video game character in Japan, overwhelming the likes of Mario, Pikachu and Sonic. Also, the fact that Touhou has a biannual convention dedicated entirely on it also speaks volumes of its popularity, as not many franchises can boast the same thing. So yeah, Reimu is popular, but it's a different type of popular. This is popularity which is driven entirely by the passion and dedication of its fanbase, that has the staying power to remain relevant in popular culture for nearly 2 decades since its inception, without corporate backing. I think this is something that's at least worth at least acknowledging if you're making a game that is supposed to be a culmination of gaming history in general.

The thing about this is that it's hard to measure with any degree of certainty. And it's not enough just to look at a particular franchise's popularity in a vacuum; the reality is that there are only 4 DLC slots remaining (as far as we know) and so competition is very fierce. You have to stand out when compared to other franchises. Reimu probably isn't going to appeal to the types of people that Nintendo is targeting with its DLC, at least not nearly as much as other characters with much more notoriety. And unfortunately, Nintendo probably doesn't care about the passion of the fans nearly as much as it cares about what's going to make the most corporate mouths smile and what's going to cause the biggest commotion among a general audience.

I also want to mention out that Shovel Knight and Shantae's presence in Ultimate may have very well opened the doors for Reimu to be put into consideration. While shovel knight and Shantae may be popular in America, but they are miniscule compared to Touhou in Japan, which is regarded as the face of indie gaming. Through the lens of a Japanese person, if Shovel Knight and Shantae are able to be represented in the game as AT and spirit, making Reimu a playable character is the next logical step.

I don't think Shovel Knight and Shantae have much to do with Reimu. Both of these characters are likely only in Ultimate at all due to the ballot; otherwise, Nintendo might not have cared to acknowledge them at all. Nintendo almost certainly is not gonna reserve a character slot specifically for an indie, so indie franchises aren't just competing with each other. They're competing with much bigger fish and this is why no indie character has made it past an AT thus far. If anything, Reimu has even less going for her than Shantae or Shovel Knight because she had little ballot presence. There's no "logical step" after Shantae and Shovel Knight, because each of these characters got their representation based on their own individual merits and not because they're related to each other in any way.

 

[shocktarts17]

So there was a discussion on another board about Fire Emblem representation and how it could be fixed moving forward and I thought I would see what people think here.

I'll also add my comment from it to kick things off,

"In my opinion, if we're assuming the same number of unique and echo fighters we're pretty close to a good spot. Roy is really the sore spot here using a "unique" fighter spot with a semi-clone moveset. So if I was fixing the FE roster I would cut him and as a result Chrom as well. I would move the echo spot to Black Knight as an Ike echo, giving the FE series a villain and a super easy echo since they fight similar in canon. I would then add Tiki. I know some people want a mounted unit and I think that would be cool but I could see that causing some weird issues. Tiki is in a unique place where she can represent the old and new games as well as offering a unique moveset not yet seen in Smash. I think there would be several challenges in her design but I'm sure they could make it work. If however they cannot make Tiki work then I think Lyn would get the last slot.

Since I took an FE AT and promoted it I would add Xander and Ryoma as an AT. They would spawn and then "fight" across the stage causing blasts where they meet and hitting people on their way by. "

 

[SPEN18]

[

So there was a discussion on another board about Fire Emblem representation and how it could be fixed moving forward and I thought I would see what people think here.

I'll also add my comment from it to kick things off,

"In my opinion, if we're assuming the same number of unique and echo fighters we're pretty close to a good spot. Roy is really the sore spot here using a "unique" fighter spot with a semi-clone moveset. So if I was fixing the FE roster I would cut him and as a result Chrom as well. I would move the echo spot to Black Knight as an Ike echo, giving the FE series a villain and a super easy echo since they fight similar in canon. I would then add Tiki. I know some people want a mounted unit and I think that would be cool but I could see that causing some weird issues. Tiki is in a unique place where she can represent the old and new games as well as offering a unique moveset not yet seen in Smash. I think there would be several challenges in her design but I'm sure they could make it work. If however they cannot make Tiki work then I think Lyn would get the last slot.

Since I took an FE AT and promoted it I would add Xander and Ryoma as an AT. They would spawn and then "fight" across the stage causing blasts where they meet and hitting people on their way b

Well I play quite a bit of FE so I'll offer my 2 cents here. The first thing to note is that FE representation isn't actually nearly as bad as some make it out to be. The whole "too many swordsmen" thing is overblown, especially since an axe user, for example, wouldn't necessarily play much differently than a character like Ike. I don't feel a need to pick characters just for the sake of the weapon triangle; if they're unique and represent FE's history I'd say that's enough. And to a large degree we have that. Marth is the original protagonist and the de facto face of the franchise; he also appears in the most games and is very much the archetypical FE protagonist. Roy represents the GBA era and FE coming to the West (though I think Lyn does both these things better). Ike is a heavier character and differentiates himself from the "typical" lordling in backstory and personality. Robin represents Awakening, which was an important game for the series reestablishing itself; he's also highly unique. Corrin gives the 3DS era another rep and represents the various transformation characters in FE. Outside of having an axe, lance, or bow user we actually have a good mix both in terms of gameplay and representing the history of the series.

Still, there are some things that can be done to improve the FE roster. Of the two Echoes Lucina is the one I'd keep; both Echoes are from a game already repped by Robin and aren't unique, but they're easy to make and Lucina in particular is pretty iconic. Out of the uniques, I feel that Roy and Corrin would be on the chopping block. I feel Lyn could be more unique than Roy, is more popular than him, and could represent largely the same pieces of history but to a larger degree. If you really care about new weapons, she gets points for having a bow, which could be used for a special move, some throws (like how Fox uses his blaster for throws), and a couple other moves like aerials if they wanted. She's also pretty much the most popular FE character besides maybe Ike. I agree Tiki is also a pretty good choice, though she's not as popular or important as Lyn; both can also be pretty unique. I like Hector and Ephraim as characters, but neither is as important to FE as Lyn and all three can bring uniqueness. Hector may play similar to Ike, perhaps with some thunder effects, and Ephraim's lance is similar to Corrin's long reach, so while both could be made unique they're not any more unique than Lyn, even though she uses a sword. Black Knight I don't feel is necessary, but he's decently popular and pretty recognizable, so if he's an easy Echo addition I wouldn't mind him being there.

So I guess if I had to cut people, I'd cut Chrom for sure, and I'd cut Roy provided that Lyn is added in his stead. If I have to cut another character, I'd cut Corrin. Lucina is fairly dispensable but she's easy enough to develop to be kept. If for some reason we get another FE newcomer in addition to Lyn, Tiki would be among the good choices.

 

[GoodGrief741]

So there was a discussion on another board about Fire Emblem representation and how it could be fixed moving forward and I thought I would see what people think here.

I'll also add my comment from it to kick things off,

"In my opinion, if we're assuming the same number of unique and echo fighters we're pretty close to a good spot. Roy is really the sore spot here using a "unique" fighter spot with a semi-clone moveset. So if I was fixing the FE roster I would cut him and as a result Chrom as well. I would move the echo spot to Black Knight as an Ike echo, giving the FE series a villain and a super easy echo since they fight similar in canon. I would then add Tiki. I know some people want a mounted unit and I think that would be cool but I could see that causing some weird issues. Tiki is in a unique place where she can represent the old and new games as well as offering a unique moveset not yet seen in Smash. I think there would be several challenges in her design but I'm sure they could make it work. If however they cannot make Tiki work then I think Lyn would get the last slot.

Since I took an FE AT and promoted it I would add Xander and Ryoma as an AT. They would spawn and then "fight" across the stage causing blasts where they meet and hitting people on their way by. "

I don’t see why cutting two popular characters, one of them unique, and replacing them with an Echo and Tiki who is nowhere near as popular would solve anything. Black Knight just doesn’t work as an Ike Echo, and I don’t see any logical reason to include Tiki over Lyn.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don’t see why cutting two popular characters, one of them unique, and replacing them with an Echo and Tiki who is nowhere near as popular would solve anything. Black Knight just doesn’t work as an Ike Echo, and I don’t see any logical reason to include Tiki over Lyn.

Actually, we don't know if Black Knight would work. Other than wearing armor, what makes his bodyshape different from Ike? Does he have an actual body difference? It just seems like an alternate costume no different from Meta Ridley. I could be wrong here, but if it's just a matter of slightly more work, it's still doable. Not that I think it's likely, because "extra work" is contradictory to why Echoes are made, because they're easy to do.

 

[rat.jpg]

Okay I looked at the directory and that's way too many newcomers a game could hope to have, it's kind of overwhelming...

 

[GoodGrief741]

Actually, we don't know if Black Knight would work. Other than wearing armor, what makes his bodyshape different from Ike? Does he have an actual body difference? It just seems like an alternate costume no different from Meta Ridley. I could be wrong here, but if it's just a matter of slightly more work, it's still doable. Not that I think it's likely, because "extra work" is contradictory to why Echoes are made, because they're easy to do.

Black Knight is noticeably taller than Ike, so it’s definitely at least an Isabelle situation. Plus most of Ike’s animations would cause clipping with BK’s armor, and (imo) some of his moveset is too fast for BK.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Black Knight is noticeably taller than Ike, so it’s definitely at least an Isabelle situation. Plus most of Ike’s animations would cause clipping with BK’s armor, and (imo) some of his moveset is too fast for BK.

Actually, BK can move super fast as well. And being a little taller isn't a big deal(there's a reason why Falco was made a little shorter in Smash itself). The armor could still fit fine. Isabelle wasn't simply "taller", though. She had a very different bodyshape. She looked severely awkward trying to paste the moves. It required a severe amount of retooling to make it work, hence her being a semi-clone(the fact I called why she'd be a semi a long time ago bar the personality argument is kind of funny now that I think about it).

Now the clipping pretty much is, yeah, I can see that being too much of an issue. Fair enough.

 

[SPEN18]

A couple of other notes with FE:

ATs are an awesome place to put in FE characters that have little chance of making the playable roster but are still important to the series. They started digging into this untapped potential a bit in Ultimate with Tiki and BK, which was fun to see. Imagine, for example, Sigurd charging into battle on his horse or Ephraim popping out of the snowglobe. FE5 and FE8 are really great games but they probably aren't big enough to stand out in an already crowded FE roster picture.

With the Black Knight as an Echo, I'm leaning towards that not being feasible. To see why, just look at the source material and compare Ike's animations to BK's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNST2s4p8s
It's extremely noticeable how different they are. Ike runs fairly fast with quick sword strikes, while BK walks very slowly, towers over his opponent, and generally delivers slower but heavier blows with big "wind-ups."

There's also a few other FE characters that probably would never get in as playable but could be fun and are at least decently important characters. Sothe, for example, could be pretty cool as a dagger user, and I don't see him being mentioned much. Sigurd with his horsie would be fun but I have no idea how they'd make that work; same for any number of other cavs, peg knights and wyvern riders. My favorite FE character is Barst but yeah...not happening lol.

Edit:
Also, swordmaster Wrys is now a thing in Cipher: https://serenesforest.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/promo-wrys.jpg

 

[Guynamednelson]

So I guess if I had to cut people, I'd cut Chrom for sure, and I'd cut Roy provided that Lyn is added in his stead. Lucina is fairly dispensable but she's easy enough to develop to be kept.

I'd rather have Chrom stay but Roy leave and have Lucina become his alt.

 

[SPEN18]

I'd rather have Chrom stay but Roy leave and have Lucina become his alt.

The thing about Roy is that he's the sole rep of the GBA FEs, which IMO are among the best FE games. So I'd only cut Roy if we were getting Lyn, and even then I wouldn't mind if Roy stays. He's also a lot more exciting for me than Chrom with his flame effects.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Why would the Echo stay over the original? Chrom could be on the cutting board. But if Roy goes, the only reason Chrom is there would go too. He's not nearly as popular in Smash in comparison. Roy is a very popular vet, and only disliked in the actual canon FE games at best. He's severely popular in Smash in comparison.

For that matter, the only echo in FE that is pretty much not leaving is Lucina at best. She's severely popular and pushed by IS. She's super easy to remake. She has less noted differences than even Chrom, who took overall more work. If an Echo is going to leave, it'll be either A) An extreme amount of character pruning, B) The person they are Echo'ing from are gone(leaving them with nobody to be easily made from) or C) They're 3rd party and Sakurai/Nintendo couldn't re-secure the rights(which could still be part of B, mind you).

 

[SPEN18]

For that matter, the only echo in FE that is pretty much not leaving is Lucina at best. She's severely popular and pushed by IS. She's super easy to remake. She has less noted differences than even Chrom, who took overall more work. If an Echo is going to leave, it'll be either A) An extreme amount of character pruning, B) The person they are Echo'ing from are gone(leaving them with nobody to be easily made from) or C) They're 3rd party and Sakurai/Nintendo couldn't re-secure the rights(which could still be part of B, mind you).

There's also D) They want to cut some Echoes to make room for new ones. The rest of this is probably accurate.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There's also D) They want to cut some Echoes to make room for new ones. The rest of this is probably accurate.

...Which doesn't actually make sense. Echoes take little effort. They aren't going to switch out some for another for that reason alone. It's too arbitrary. For that matter, we know Sakurai doesn't like cutting characters. The other reasons have a bit more importance behind them. Going for a smaller roster is what it is, they'll cut what is the least necessary. Clones would fit under that for the most part(Lucina aside).

For instance, he didn't cut Young Link for Toon Link in itself. He updated all of them to their GameCube counterparts at once. Toon Link is the only one that was an actual newcomer among the Zelda characters, but he still used some Young Link assets. He updates characters to their latest games. It should be noted in this case, Toon Link and Young Link have very different bodytypes(much like Isabelle and Villager), but share similarities. It made a lot of sense to do what he did. When it comes to a smaller roster, it makes sense to use the more recent and popular character.

 

[The Light Music Club]

Pipe dream DLC would probably be (assuming it's going to be wild stuff like Joker all throughout):
Phoenix Wright
Banjo
Neku or Crono
Haruka Amami or another absolutely ridiculous anime like character (Saber, Purple Heart, Monokuma, Monica, Senran rep)

What I'm expecting:
Sora
Llyod or Agumon (would be okay with)
Pokemon Gen 8
Eldegard (Definitely wouldn't mind)

I think characters like Ragna, Subzero, and Scorpion all have decent chances as well.

Phoenix Wright I kind of think will get in, but I'm not putting him on the list as it might be the bias talking.

 

[Daedulus]

I think Smash needs more Zelda reps, Fire Emblem has more reps than Zelda(Including echos). And the fact that it's made of 3 links 2 zeldas and 1 Ganondorf is kind of a shame. Don't get me wrong, I love Roy(Even mained him in Melee I know he sucks), And Marh and Ike, but when a character gets added to smash it should feel meaning full, Corrin and Chrom weren't meaning and since everyone in FE is an echo in smash, well that's just misrepresentation.

 

[shocktarts17]

I don’t see why cutting two popular characters, one of them unique, and replacing them with an Echo and Tiki who is nowhere near as popular would solve anything. Black Knight just doesn’t work as an Ike Echo, and I don’t see any logical reason to include Tiki over Lyn.

Black Knight is noticeably taller than Ike, so it’s definitely at least an Isabelle situation. Plus most of Ike’s animations would cause clipping with BK’s armor, and (imo) some of his moveset is too fast for BK.

The one "unique" is a semi-clone at best and while he is popular with Smash fans I don't think he is quite as popular as people think and he is 100% the main cause of the FE representation issues because of how similar his moveset is to Marth's. Dropping him for a truly unique fighter makes way more sense. The other popular character comes from a well represented game and was already present in Robin's final smash and as a Mii Fighter, that should be enough without taking up an echo fighter slot that could be used elsewhere. That said I will concede the point for Lyn, honestly I prefer her over Tiki I just thought that avoiding yet another sword lord would help FE's image.

Saying that Black Knight wouldn't work because they couldn't copy and paste him over Ike's animations is very silly considering at this point most of the echos got new animations to better fit their style. And as for them fighting similar,

Spoiler: PoR spoilers

Black Knight was trained by Ike's father who also trained Ike so him being an Ike echo with his own animations would make way more sense than Chrom, Dark Samus, or even Dark Pit.

I think Smash needs more Zelda reps, Fire Emblem has more reps than Zelda(Including echos). And the fact that it's made of 3 links 2 zeldas and 1 Ganondorf is kind of a shame. Don't get me wrong, I love Roy(Even mained him in Melee I know he sucks), And Marh and Ike, but when a character gets added to smash it should feel meaning full, Corrin and Chrom weren't meaning and since everyone in FE is an echo in smash, well that's just misrepresentation.

I will 100% argue that Zelda also is in dire need of a reconfiguration and that their representation is off as well. Personally I think more than any other series both FE and Zelda were most limited by "everyone is here." I think someone like Ravio would make a great fighter from a recent game and that Impa should take Sheik's moveset. Drop one of the Link clones and you have a much better situation. (PS I have a Ravio moveset in the Ravio support thread if you're curious how he would be different than Link)

 

[Daedulus]

I will 100% argue that Zelda also is in dire need of a reconfiguration and that their representation is off as well. Personally I think more than any other series both FE and Zelda were most limited by "everyone is here." I think someone like Ravio would make a great fighter from a recent game and that Impa should take Sheik's moveset. Drop one of the Link clones and you have a much better situation. (PS I have a Ravio moveset in the Ravio support thread if you're curious how he would be different than Link)

I don't think we need to get rid of the Link clones, with Link's new BOTW moveset they work a lot better, Toon represents the windwaker style and handheld games and young link represents majora. I think we should get rid of young link, I think a reason why we don't have many zelda characters because the games are so far between and few that it's hard to promote them(a reason why we got nothing in 4, no games came out at the time) also most zelda characters appear in one game and only one game, just a thought though, I'd love Ravio, but he is kind of irrelevant now.

 

[shocktarts17]

I don't think we need to get rid of the Link clones, with Link's new BOTW moveset they work a lot better, Toon represents the windwaker style and handheld games and young link represents majora. I think we should get rid of young link, I think a reason why we don't have many zelda characters because the games are so far between and few that it's hard to promote them(a reason why we got nothing in 4, no games came out at the time) also most zelda characters appear in one game and only one game, just a thought though, I'd love Ravio, but he is kind of irrelevant now.

We do not need three different Links even if they are slightly different. Its worse than the four Marths because at least two of those are echos and all of them are unique characters, all three Links are using a unique fighter slot on top of being the same person. If people really want WW representation they should add Tetra in place of WW Link then Young Link as a Link semi-clone wouldn't be any worse than Dr Mario.

And Ravio was a main character in the most recent top down Zelda game and the second most recent Zelda game overall, as well as being featured as DLC for Hyrule Warriors(though I know the same could be said for several other frequently requested characters it shows hes at least on the same level as them.) He has way more character than any of the champions and could represent the Zelda series well by using items that are frequently featured in all Zelda games (staves, bombs, hammer, etc.). He makes 10x more sense than Skull Kid, Midna, or even Impa.

 

[KloupLoup]

honestly really don't think anything needs to be reworked. it does kinda suck how many slots FE has, and how few LOZ has, but honestly LOZ doesn't have many GREAT characters outside the main 3 (also helps that they are In multiple games) while for FE it is SOLEY about characters and their personalities. HONESTLY if we are going to be real, with how popular for emblem has gotten (just look at heroes) there could be a major argument for a FE fighting game completely separate from smash. I'm not even a huge FE fan but I would play the absolute sheesh out of that. Also on the topic of LOZ characters I would LOVE Ravio. I see him being kinda like an isabelle and duck hunt mix, but slower with meatier attacks. don't know if that makes sense, but I could see it. I would honestly be worried about them making him isabelle-ish with more projectiles. I know that's a bad way to describe it, but it doesn't sound fun to me that way.

 

[IsmaR]

A character you don't like the idea of does not necessarily mean they're taking up the "slot" of something you would prefer.

There are plenty of people who love/mained/play each individual Link, Mario, Samus, Marth, and even Pit. I understand wanting the Links to have more of their original game's flair (particularly Toon Link), but cutting them is not a guarantee "we get a unique newcomer in their place." That's not how Sakurai does things.

 

[shocktarts17]

A character you don't like the idea of does not necessarily mean they're taking up the "slot" of something you would prefer.

There are plenty of people who love/mained/play each individual Link, Mario, Samus, Marth, and even Pit. I understand wanting the Links to have more of their original game's flair (particularly Toon Link), but cutting them is not a guarantee "we get a unique newcomer in their place." That's not how Sakurai does things.

Oh I 100% wouldn't want them cut for no reason, this was under the assumption that cutting them freed up a slot for someone else. I get that people prefer one Link over another but why should Link or Marth mains get so many different ways to play their playstyle at the cost of other unique movesets?

 

[KloupLoup]

A character you don't like the idea of does not necessarily mean they're taking up the "slot" of something you would prefer.

There are plenty of people who love/mained/play each individual Link, Mario, Samus, Marth, and even Pit. I understand wanting the Links to have more of their original game's flair (particularly Toon Link), but cutting them is not a guarantee "we get a unique newcomer in their place." That's not how Sakurai does things.

very true. I personally like how link got a rework, but we still have the original link playstyle in the game. really works with the whole "everyone is here" thing. Also of all series to have multiples of 1 character (it doesn't make much sense to count shiek and Zelda, as theyre only the same on THE most literal of levels) it makes the most sense for LOZ sense the MC is LITERALLY the same character reincarnated multiple times. Makes more sense then 3 samuses, although I even think all 3 samuses make sense, even though zero suit is a stretch thematically and only really works because she was grandfathered in and dark samus is stronger thematically, but also disappointingly not different which is a shame sense the character isn't even "technically" samus. Almost in the same vein as Sonic and metal sonic.

Oh I 100% wouldn't want them cut for no reason, this was under the assumption that cutting them freed up a slot for someone else. I get that people prefer one Link over another but why should Link or Marth mains get so many different ways to play their playstyle at the cost of other unique movesets?

with the moveset thing, I don't think that's 100% fair sense that's more of a side effect than a purposeful intention. I kinda get the Marth Lucina thing, but players usually gravitate more towards one than the other, and as far as I know A link main does not make a young link main, does not make a toon link main (saying I don't think link mains usually switch between links, mostly because it takes precision and practice wit a lot of links moves that doesn't cary over perfectly between versions)

 

[shocktarts17]

with the moveset thing, I don't think that's 100% fair sense that's more of a side effect than a purposeful intention. I kinda get the Marth Lucina thing, but players usually gravitate more towards one than the other, and as far as I know A link main does not make a young link main, does not make a toon link main (saying I don't think link mains usually switch between links, mostly because it takes precision and practice wit a lot of links moves that doesn't cary over perfectly between versions)

Again I'm not someone who opposes these characters, just saying that I would rather get a unique moveset and use echos to create the slight differences like Marth and Lucina.

EDIT: also be careful of double posting, edit your post instead.

 

[KloupLoup]

Again I'm not someone who opposes these characters, just saying that I would rather get a unique moveset and use echos to create the slight differences like Marth and Lucina.

EDIT: also be careful of double posting, edit your post instead.

oh, yeah I could see your point there. I was really bummed that Dark Samus was completely the same (as far as I know)

 

[Guynamednelson]

Again I'm not someone who opposes these characters, just saying that I would rather get a unique moveset and use echos to create the slight differences like Marth and Lucina.

EDIT: also be careful of double posting, edit your post instead.

Thing is, clones have to have a certain level of similarity to get the echo label, and there are more differences between the three Links than most echoes and their original fighter. Ken is the exception, and even then Sakurai just gave him the echo label just because.

 

[KloupLoup]

Thing is, clones have to have a certain level of similarity to get the echo label, and there are more differences between the three Links than most echoes and their original fighter. Ken is the exception, and even then Sakurai just gave him the echo label just because.

yeah the more I think about it, the more I think that these labels don't really mean much, and just exist, and apply to the charachters they do because Sakurai went "ehhh why not"

 

[shocktarts17]

Thing is, clones have to have a certain level of similarity to get the echo label, and there are more differences between the three Links than most echoes and their original fighter. Ken is the exception, and even then Sakurai just gave him the echo label just because.

Right I'm not claiming that the Links are echos, I'm saying that their movesets are so similar that if given the option I would rather get a new character with a unique moveset. At the end of the day there are 3 versions of Link on the roster, its silly even before they all play almost exactly the same.