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Newbie Mafia 14 - Ovah?!?

Kantrip

Kantplay
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
10,188
Location
B.C. Canada
Oh ho! Someone who has already mastered the art of having a back-up explanation. Not a bad trick. However, what say you if I turn around and say I don't believe you. You've heavily implied that you thought Serin was scum for his post and weird wagon hop, but then nobody took the bait, so you backed off.
It's fine if you don't believe me, but I ask you to give me a reason why. Show me where I "heavily implied that I thought Serin was scum".



Serin, don't be dumb. I'm obviously town. I'm not explaining why Felipe is scum because that would be anti-town. You should take my word for it.
Why are you obviously town? Why would explaining why Felipe is scum be anti-town? If he truly is scum and lay out a solid reason why, would that not help town lynch him? This post makes no sense to me, and I don't know what motivation Serin or anyone else should have to believe it.



Your vote is your most powerful tool, why would you not be using it? Could it be you don't want to commit to a solid stance?
More like I didn't have a solid stance. It's hard to commit to a vote when we're out of RVS and I don't have any scumreads yet. I want to try to avoid leading a mislynch wagon. I'll see where my reads stand after a re-read of what we've done so far.

Do NOT play this card. It's a bad one. If players want to lurk, they'll log in as invisible. I stay logged in as invisible. There are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many townies who look and leave and it will lead you to waaaaaaaaaaaay too many mislynches.
Come on, Ryker. I already told marathonman my vote on him was to get him to post. I wasn't concerned about people who stay logged in as invisible, because I can't tell when they view the thread. My vote on marathonman is not intended to start a wagon to mislynch land....


What? I've posted at least twice a day on a freaking weekend, there are players who you'll be lucky to get one post in 48 hours from. Chill, the game will pick up naturally.
Analyze the posts you quoted and show me how there's nothing provided there because I'm seeing town intent.
I'll analyze yours and Tery's posts right now and post again with reads and whatnot in a bit.
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
Joined
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Messages
10,188
Location
B.C. Canada
Terywj first:
Gheb, you should update the OP player list.

Vote: Felipe
Pure RVS, unless he saw the same thing Ryker sees about Felipe being blatantly scum.
Ryker, can I be a cool kid? Interpret this as you will. :awesome:
This post doesn't need an explanation, lol.
I'll wait for an IC player to explain what just happened.

Unvote

Vote: Serin
Nothing in this post, either. He says he'll wait for an IC to explain the RVS wagon, then switches his vote to Serin.
Hey Ryker, do your responsibility as an Inexperienced Challenged player and explain to Serin what just happened.
Telling Ryker to do his IC duties. Nothing here, either.
I'm not sure I understand your question.
Nothing here.
I'm no expert, so I'm like gonna misword stuff. RVS=Random Voting Stage. The beginning of Mafia is very...awkward. Nobody knows anything and so random votes are thrown around to get discussions and reactions from people. I don't actually know if Serin is new (I'm assuming he is, since 3+ IC's seem unlikely, especially given having 9 players) but not knowing about RVS but blindly following the crowd is lame. My vote on him was still pretty much a joke until he volunteered to be lynched.
Tery has his first meaningful post, here. Half of it is explaining RVS, but he explains his Serin vote: "pretty much a joke until he volunteered to be lynched." This is still null, though.
You're forgetting X1-12 as an Inexperience Challenged.
Pointing out my mistake, no contribution here.
I disagree. There is always going to be information to get from interacting with other players. Eventually, there will be a point where the town has enough information / judgement to lynch someone who they believe are Mafia. And even if no such information is come across, there can be a no lynch or something else will be done. Offering yourself at the immediate beginning offers no possible benefit to town as it literally sounds like you just don't want to contribute or care. If you are town, you have everything to prove by working together to scumhunt with the rest of us.

I feel that if you're town, Mafia now have you as a really good target to just pick at the entire game.
This post is just doing IC stuff and helping out Serin. "scumhunt with the rest of us" implies that Tery thinks he'd been scumhunting before this post. From what I've analyzed so far, I don't think he was.
You'd be surprised once you see other people posting and interacting.



I'm well aware of that. That does not justify your claim of "Well someone's gotta go so it may as well be me right now since we lack info." Work with the connections and dialogue presented by the other people. For example, what do you think of Kantrip / Ryker? Kantrip / me? Or even this interaction between us right now?
Helping Serin again. Tery does ask his opinion on Ryker, himself, and myself, and his view on the conversation that was going on. The first things Tery's done to help town as far as I could read.


Alright. So when the others post here, be sure to communicate with them so you can develop reads on the players, which will help town scumhunt. I don't follow your null on Ryker though. I'm assuming by "'Cept Ryker." you clarified him as a null and not scum.



What did you find contradictory? Is being contradictory indicative of alignment? If so, does that justify unvoting just to put it back on in the future?
Helping Serin again and asking me some solid questions. Tery's doing some pro-town things in his conversation between Serin and me.
Show me where Serin specifically stated that.

If contradictory-ness (forgive me) is not beneficial to town, is that a slip?

Why remove the vote if you're just going to sit around waiting for something else to happen. Make or break Serin, or the actions you've seen now should determine whether or not your vote will stay. Otherwise you're just doing nothing helpful to town by removing your vote / not voting.
Here is where I feel he was starting to pit Serin and myself against each other. He tells me there was no point in removing my vote, as doing so doesn't help town in any way. He also offers some questions related to my vote on Serin. Odd that he questions the reasons for my vote, while at the same time telling me it should have stayed on.
Serin, what do you think of my questions on Kantrip?
Here it seems to me like Tery wants to get Serin back into the conversation. He does this by asking Serin what he thinks of Tery's questions directed at me.
Man, I have missed playing Mafia so much. :3
Nothing to see here.
Because I'm sure you can milk more responses from Serin that just that.
This post is the one I like the least. Tery defends Serin in the same post he tells me I should have kept my vote on him. Then he gets Serin in the conversation by getting him to give his opinion on Tery's questions. Next he tells me I could have milked more responses from Serin. It feels to me like Tery was trying to get Serin and I to antagonize each other. This is certainly not beneficial to town.
Doesn't seem like you are, because after your removal of vote on Serin all you've done is talk to me and not much else.



Did you read what I posted about RVS? What makes you use this response.



You said being contradictory is not indicative of alignment but has a negative effect on town. What are your opinions on slips (messups or mistakes)? Are those indicative of alignment? Is being contradictory a slip?
This half of the post is pretty quality, however. His questions seem legit and have the intent of helping town.
Let's not forget everyone else, too! Adumb, X1-12, thoughts?
Just trying to get more responses. Null.
I'm not saying these are unavoidable, I'm asking what his stances / opinions on those functions are.
Clarification and nothing else.
Mostly because the interactions between Kantrip, Serin, and myself were the most active and obvious, I thought it'd be getting some feedback from the other players (including yourselves) for their opinion on those dialogue.

Apparently according to Ryker, I'm like a pseudo-IC, so I will also be trying to help you guys get into the game. Remember that this is regardless of my alignment just like the other three IC players.

Now if only Adumb would post.
Tery's most recent post. Everything here is pretty null.

After this post-by-post, I'm really still coming up with a null read on tery, if only because the only content he's given was between Serin and me. There was some legitimate scumhunting in a few of these posts, but I'd like to hear Tery's opinion on some other players (marathonman and Ryker, maybe?).

Ryker next.
 

X1-12

Smash Champion
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Ryker said:
Could it be you don't want to commit to a solid stance?
Kantrip said:
More like I didn't have a solid stance. It's hard to commit to a vote when we're out of RVS and I don't have any scumreads yet. I want to try to avoid leading a mislynch wagon.
You act like you disagree with ryker's assertion here, yet the bolded basically agrees with it, stating you didn't want to commit to a solid stance
 

X1-12

Smash Champion
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Firstly NEVER EVER quote a post if you have nothing to say about it, its fluff and a waste of space which is really irritating. There's nothing gained from it

"scumhunt with the rest of us" implies that Tery thinks he'd been scumhunting before this post.
Why does it not imply that he should start scumhunting with the rest of us? I feel you are interpreting this as you want to in order to fit your accusation

Furthermore nothing in your post in anyway explained why any of Tery's actions were scummy. Being "Odd" is not scummy. You also haven't explained WHY him pitting you and Serin against each other is anti-town.
 

Terywj [태리]

Charismatic Maknae~
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@Tery: Do you find that Katrip is trying to appear more knowledgable or "in the know" than a typical newbie? If so do you believe this is indicative of his alignment in any way? Give reason for your answer.
I don't think Kantrip is "trying" to be more knowledgeable per se but actually is more knowledgeable than the average new player. He knows a lot more about how this works than when I first started, at least. Knowledge / knowing how to play Mafia well is not (shouldn't be?) a clear factor of a player's alignment. There can be smart / strong town players just as there can be pathetic / dumb Mafia players. I'm not sure what else you meant by reason but that's what I think. Responding to Kantrip in a bit.
 

Terywj [태리]

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Kantrip said:
Something about opinions on Ryker and Marthoman.
Ryker is town, obviously. Can't you see that?

Marthoman doesn't have much to look at. Dabbles a little, and then comments on how I'm "pushing for" you and Serin to tunnel each other. I'll refrain from commenting on this since X1-12 has this covered at the moment.
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
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You act like you disagree with ryker's assertion here, yet the bolded basically agrees with it, stating you didn't want to commit to a solid stance
If not committing to a solid stance means not wanting to lynch a null read, then I guess I wasn't committing to a solid stance. -shrug- I should have asked for clarification, I thought he meant I had solid stances, and just wasn't committing to them.

Firstly NEVER EVER quote a post if you have nothing to say about it, its fluff and a waste of space which is really irritating. There's nothing gained from it
Sorry about that. I won't do it again.

Why does it not imply that he should start scumhunting with the rest of us? I feel you are interpreting this as you want to in order to fit your accusation
I meant Tery was saying to "scumhunt with the rest if us" when Tery himself hadn't been scumhunting before that post.

Furthermore nothing in your post in anyway explained why any of Tery's actions were scummy. Being "Odd" is not scummy. You also haven't explained WHY him pitting you and Serin against each other is anti-town.
My post's intention wasn't to declare Tery as scum. I was trying to go through his posts and show how he mostly wasn't contributing or helping scumhunt, but after my PbP I realized there were some cases where he was. By Odd I meant I didn't know how to read it, not that I thought it was scummy. As I said, my read on Tery is still null, if perhaps leaning town.

Thinking about it again, Tery pitting Serin and myself wasn't anti-town. I just didn't like it because it seemed manipulative. It really had some of Tery's more quality scumhunting contained in it, although I think the whole thing was TvT.

Ryker is town, obviously. Can't you see that?
No, I can't. Is this meta, or am I missing something obvious?

Marthoman doesn't have much to look at. Dabbles a little, and then comments on how I'm "pushing for" you and Serin to tunnel each other. I'll refrain from commenting on this since X1-12 has this covered at the moment.
Fair enough. I agree Marathonman is lacking readable content.
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
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There's not much to read through as far as Ryker's posts go. The majority are just him voting for Felipe, a vote which he's still pushing for without providing reasoning. I've already replied to the posts with any substance in them.

@Ryker, again: Why should we trust that felipe is scum without any evidence? He hasn't even posted since the game started.
 

X1-12

Smash Champion
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Kantrip: Can you imagine any possible answer to the above question which would satisfy you or convinve you that Felipe is scum?
 

Kantrip

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I can imagine a possible answer that would satisfy me, yes. I would like to see what Ryker says, if anything.
 

Kantrip

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It has pro-town intentions. Whether or not it ends up helping town depends on how Ryker answers, or if he does; whether or not Ryker even has a reason, or if he's just pushing his RVS vote and telling the newbies to join the bandwagon.
 

X1-12

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Really? Ryker clearly can't have a legitimate reason to believe Felipe is scum, so the only legitimate reason could be to pressure him, correct? If this is the case then how did asking him his reason benefit town? If anything it only relieves pressure from Felipe.
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
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Ah, dangit you're right. I knew that Ryker clearly couldn't have a legitimate reason to think Felipe as scum. It didn't occur to me that it was all to pressure someone who was V/LA. For some reason I was tunneling on all those "unvote vote felipe" posts and deriving something scummy from them that wasn't there.

Alright, pretty sure Ryker's town.

@marathonman, do you still think Tery was trying to face Serin and me off after reading my PbP? Who are your scumpicks at the moment?
 

Kantrip

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Because I thought Ryker's votes on fellipe were scummy and just wanted to get his answer as a read on him. I thought he actually had an answer to cover up his scumminess and he was trying to swing a wagon for the sake of lynching. I realize now that that would be stupid and it's an obvious pressure vote.
 

MARaTHonman

Smash Rookie
Joined
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Messages
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Would you not have posted if Kantrip had not voted you?
In retrospect, I guess I posted because Kantrip wanted me to post, and I was going to post anyway after I read through everything.

Haven't read anything else yet, only saw the above post. Dunno what it refers to, but it isn't going to change, so I don't want anyone else to comment on it until Marathonman puzzles out whether it's scummy or not. Let's get a definite stance.
Originally I didn't get what Serin was trying to do when he offered himself for lynching. It wouldn't be good for the mafia, and I don't think it would help town very much, so I thought maybe it was a set-up to try to get someone to agree with him and condemn themselves to being scummy, which goading the interaction between Kantrip and Serin could have seemed like. But that seems a bit too obvious, doesn't it? So I still don't have a great read on Tery.

@Terywj, I'd like to know what your intentions were with the conversation between you and Kantrip and Serin were.
 

Terywj [태리]

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Simple. Kantrip, Serin, and myself were posting a lot, so I wanted to deduct opinions from them, since you guys are "newbies". It's a critical part of Day 1 that you should talk a fair amount to learn connections and the like.
 

Kantrip

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Didn't felipe post that 2 days ago, so it applied to yesterday? He should have been able to post today.
 

felipe_9595

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Ok guys back. I had a problem with my modem today, and my pc just stopped working .-. Gladly i still have my wii soooo i will go to reread.

In another news, i didnt play bad yesterday, my G&W did it ok in melee :p
 

Kantrip

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Also, today is still 9/11/2011 for me. Time zone discrepancies?

Either way, glad you're back felipe. Please post any reads or comments you have from your read through when you finish.
 

felipe_9595

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nothing solid for the moment. Still thinking about some awnsers (I found interesting 1 post from Panta (The wall of text xP))

i am on page 8 :p
 

Terywj [태리]

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What of his post gives you the guarantee about his activities on 9/10?

Stop posting nonsensicals about Felipe's activity. If he's here he's here. If he's not he's not.

Now why don't you apply this pressure to Adumbrodeus?

I'll see if I can make comments on X1-12.
 

felipe_9595

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mmmm so far this are my thoughts. Serin is acting like a newbie town (Offering for a sac etc). I dont like Ryker actitude about me being "really scummy": Didnt like his" Cmon serin, i am really townie" either (Trying to convince new player huh).

Vote: Adumb

Just a pressure vote
 

Kantrip

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@Felipe, what do you think of Marathonman so far?

Also, what is your opinion of the main conversation that occurred between Terywj, Serin, and myself?
 

adumbrodeus

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Kantrip, that's exactly what I want you to think. I have nothing to gain, and furthermore, I have nothing to prove. Like someone else said (I don't feel like scrolling up), it's D1, and someone's gotta go eventually.

Hence, my willingness to go first.
That's a silly point of view to take. A view that pretty much cements you as town Serin, but silly anyway.

Tery sort of covered this, but mafia is a game about reading and manipulation. This means that the majority of figuring out who is scum and who is connected to who is based on actions during the day, namely how people vote, how they answer questions, and how they react to things. So we're gonna be lynching people based on scummyness, always. There's no need for a volunteer, nor RLs until there's a PR result.


Kantrip explain your full motivation/thought process leading to you unvoting just then

@Serin: Do you believe RVS to be something that benefits town?

@felipe: Give me one sentence that explains why I shouldnt vote you
What do you think these questions can accomplish X1?





Also, Ryker I hate you for ending RVS so early.


vote: felipe


Wagon gogogogo
 

adumbrodeus

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ninja'd, serves me right for not refreshing.



mmmm so far this are my thoughts. Serin is acting like a newbie town (Offering for a sac etc). I dont like Ryker actitude about me being "really scummy": Didnt like his" Cmon serin, i am really townie" either (Trying to convince new player huh).

Vote: Adumb

Just a pressure vote
Care to explain what you think you're gonna accomplish with a vote explicitly labled as a "pressure vote"?
 

felipe_9595

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About Marathon, almost nothing, i skipped some of his posts xP

About My BW and Serin's actitude?? Meh. Typical case on EM. Its pretty common. When i was a newbie i always offered for a sac on d1 (but that changed when i discovered that didnt help the town, only maf)

And lulz at the Wagon with 2 votes xPPPPPP

Just saw the last post. Nothing. I want to see more post of your part.
 

felipe_9595

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Nothing, you asked me why the vote. I said because i want to see you post. I cant get nothing from it. At least you posted :p

Unvote
 

adumbrodeus

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Nothing, you asked me why the vote. I said because i want to see you post. I cant get nothing from it. At least you posted :p

Unvote
If you got nothing, why didn't you follow it up with something else, it's obvious you're interested in my alignment, so why just stop?


If I'm not interesting to you anymore, why aren't you looking at ryker at all, you already said that you were uncomfortable with him.
 

felipe_9595

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Wait, i am not interested on you, i just wanted a post from you (You are an IC,but you havent posted too much).

I will speak with Ryker when he post on the thread.
 

adumbrodeus

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Wait, i am not interested on you, i just wanted a post from you (You are an IC,but you havent posted too much).

I will speak with Ryker when he post on the thread.
Fair enough, but activity for activity's sake doesn't make much of a difference, activity is only useful if it tells you something about a player. Granted it might not be immediately evident but activity for activity's sake is meaningless, townies shouldn't say anything unless they have a purpose in mind.

That said townies should also aggressively pursue finding a reason to post.



Why wait? This is forum mafia, ryker can respond when he gets online next, and other players might be able to draw information from it. Also he might leave right after he makes his next post, making you wait longer for your response.
 
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