Newbie 24 - SMT: Devil Survivor LAW IS VICTORIOUS #1 CHAOS LOSES AHAHAHAH

[Raziek]

If you want to read from where I replace in, it's post 299.

 

[ranmaru]

1. GaGa: I liked your enthusiasm. I think your personality and how you brought things to the table, got you lynched. (Basically for being calculative) I want you to join another newbie, or even a game. I also want to see if you like mafia as that psychology puzzle you have always wanted. Deff contact me privately/via IM and we can talk more about mafia. :D

2. Xiroey/Frozenflame751:
Xiroey, I'm a bit dissapointed you called v/la secretly when prodded, and replaced out secretly too. It was indeed fishy to me along with your inability to contribute. Maybe I shouldn't say dissapointed, I just didn't like it haha. But it still seemed fishy at the time. But I forgive you, since I feel you might have been scared as I put on the pressure towards you, and you just tucked your tail and ran away. Not that I doubt you had to replace. I do hope you play again, and hopefully draw town so you can really get into detective mode. (If you really are into that)

Frozen, I feel you lost Badwolf just because of the way you LIKE to argue. I feel you pushed him too hard and it caused him to go "What no don't you yell at me! *Smack*" It seems he just scumreads those he finds annoying. Not saying you have to sugar coat everything, but I felt you could have 'helped' him in your direction if you told him he was cute. (And he'd go "Oh gee really? I like you too") What I mean is I feel that you could have played to Badwolf's likings, because he wouldn't be the type to listen to the argument, just ignore it if he felt he could. I see you want to argue and win that way, but no one would and I feel that may be why you partially lost. (Raz wouldn't because he knew he didn't have to, he told rake not to, and Badwolf was just annoyed xD )

I do like how you let Pawn do his thing so he could learn via experience. :D

3. Turazok

Yo bro! Sorry I lynched ya, and it's funny you were on scum. I kinda gave in to Kantrip's read because he'd just think we were both scum so I was like yeah no. Anyways it was fun playing with you and deff join another. :D (And look at your own mistakes and try to learn from it)

4. Mari777/Raziek

Mari: Sorry you couldn't stay in. :3

Hey Raz. I didn't like the way you came in and kinda looked at GaGa and Badwolf. (They were both town reads to me) I can understand you coming in defending Rake, even though I felt he was pretty scummy here. Everything else I'm glad you did. :D

5. pwndidater2

Yo! Good stuff recovering from the early pressure. Funny both scum were under fire early game. Must have been tough. Would like to hear what you learned from this experience, and how you felt the whole time.

6. Badwolf

Yo bad. I had a town read on you most of the time. I had some doubts with your vote one me when I was pursuiing Pawn, and your confusion between FF and Raz and Pawn. It made me think "Man I think he may be scum with Pawn and FF is just really thinking Raz/Rake are really scum". I want you to look at that and think if it could have been possible for you to have been scum with pawn or not. (So you can see how it looked to me)

Besides that, good stuff. I would say try not to let your emotions get you. It seemed like you were annoyed with FF and **** and just layed the smack down on him for that haha. Not that this should detract from your victory, but it is something to think about. (I mean, consider if FF was town and Rake/Raz WERE scum gambitting, did you give FF the time of day in that case? Think about that)

7. Ranmaru

Eh, you did sorta ok.

8. Potassium (IC)

Ey. I had a town read on ya. You kinda convinced me out of Pawn, though. (Although I wasn't too convinced into him myself, I really meant what I said, but I would have lynched him instead of Turaz had I had no other direction) I also was a bit disappointed with your D2, you kinda let GaGa be the direction. ;-; I didn't want him dead. Anyways, I felt you should have done some re-work and put in a new direction, as at the time I felt Rake was scummy and obviously shouldn't have granted his direction xD And since your for sure scum read died D1 and flipped town, I felt that might have flipped a switch in your head and go "oh **** HOW DARE THE SCUM LET ME DO THIS" hehe. Other wise good stuff.

9. Rake (IC)

Rake, don't feel bad. I didn't understand what you were doing, but I guess you were really trying to feel out the newbies first before doing anything. Although I feel you should have done slightly more still. The newbies can't do everything. I will say your extra questioning in your walls were very weird and would make me want to lynch you even MORE OH GORF. Deff did not help you haha. I am interested in hearing what you were really trying to do now that the game is over, and what you learned from it. I am also interested in what I was doing and how it might have helped the newbs from your pov.

 

[ranmaru]

Soup thanks for letting me play. Was fun. :D Thank you for modding.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Haven't read the game. But I have to agree that I don't espouse roles that involve a QT between two or more townies because it gives you them so much meta leverage. This is not even an example of a QT mechanic being used, but a personal QT being posted by Kuz when he replaced out one game and left a QT with all his reads from D1. That could have been faked, but Kuz had to go into the game expecting to seriously mind game and that takes serious commitment on the part of mafia. The same goes for sharing any QT information in neighborhood or masonry. Assuming that it is active and being used, it is just not a likely mafia gambit since it potentially risks making a blatant appearance that both partners are linked in some way and losing two members often cripples the scum team as a whole. It also binds the mafia team from making flexible snap decisions when the game gets closer to lylo when it becomes more transparent who is mafia and who is not.

I'm a little confused about what your position with regard to the bolded is. Do you think that it wasn't fair to scum for Kuzi to leave a qt for town when he replaced out? In both Disney Sing-A-Long and Hardbody I kept QTs with notes in them that I would have posted if I saw the benefit to it.

I don't find anything unfair about keeping a qt as an individual townie. It's just another way for communicating your ideas after all, something that mafia by design has to "fake" anyways. I don't buy the "it'll take a lot of mindgames to do that as scum" argument. If scum can emulate it, then it's fair. Just imagine if scum DID do it and got away with it. Like, no one suspected this one person for being scum because he had this qt full of his "ideas" and whatnot. In that case scenario scum outplayed town through completely fair means and thus deserved to win. That scum player who used a qt to their advantage didn't cheat or force the town to believe him, the town just choose to on their own.

My main point is is that town could also simply express their ideas in thread and be good at it, thus making them look townie. There's no logical reason why simply posting a qt with your ideas should make your input look good by itself.

I agree though that masonaries in general are ********. Too powerful for town, and I will say that it is probably just too goddamn hard for scum to fake. Especially in this set up. If you're going to use masons, then either nerf town, give a negative modifier to the masons (like lovers, although that wouldn't work in this set up) or buff scum.

FF I don't really think Raz "stooped" as much as he simply used a tool provided to him. You can't really blame him for making use of what was provided to him, be it overpowered or not.

Despite FF's saltiness, I agree with him that this set up was pretty unbalanced, and that a cop safe claim that could actually **** scum or over is unfair. The definition of a safe claim is that someone can't lynch you off of it alone. From Soup's perspective it's kinda like outright lying to scum what they can and can get away with. Also again masons in such a small set up gives town a huge leg up right from the beginning,

Pwn I think that you and FF should have reconsidered claiming cop after voyeur flip *didn't read the game*.

Ran and Soup I think that FF's general point is that the best scum could do in this set up is nk town PRs. One of mafia's advantages is suppose to be that they can kill at least somewhat freely, but in this set up the ideal strategy for scum would have been to kill certain players based solely off their roles. The delimna "should I kill this really pro town player off or the claimed cop?" is nothing new in mafia, but we usually have other roles like roleblockers to help scum out in these situations.

Soup I think you should calm down with your set ups. Don't design them just that an alignment can get ****ed over by something that's not within their power.

That is all.

 

[pawndidater2]

Ahah, I lost. XD. Might not have gone that way if I'd been less busy this weekend, or if I'd been smarter about that last NK and my claim. Seriously, the moment I crashed into the thread on D3 my mind was like "holy **** I'm stupid". Still pretty fun though. I'm going to destroy you all in 25.

Here's the mafia QT if you feel like reading it. My reasoning is pretty clear. http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/Pb6MCDwb58H

However, there is one thing that's kind of bothering me: Potassium, what would you have done if BW had been killed instead of you?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I had shoutouts typed up on my computer. I'll get to them later.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

TEAM METATRON:


Raziek/Mari (Kazuya/Hero)

Hello and welcome.

You are Town Neighbor. You're a pretty introverted guy with only a couple of close friends. Luckily, you and your pal happened to get stuck in this mess and now both of you will do whatever it takes to survive. You can share your thoughts in this QT provided here. Your neighbor is confirmed to be of the same alignment.

You are Town aligned and win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Rake (Yuzu)

Hello and welcome.

You are Town Neighbor. You're quite an enthusiastic person with a cheery attitude towards life. You usually try to think optimistic, but being on the verge of an apocalypse, it might be harder to do so. You've decided to team up with someone so this can be easier on your tender soul. You can share your thoughts in this QT provided here. Your neighbor is confirmed to be of the same alignment.

You are Town aligned and win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Turazok (Gin)

Hello and welcome.

You are Vanilla Townie. You're the local around here who is quite distraught with what has happened. You own a shanty bar on the side of town, but business has been slow lately. I wonder why. You decide to do something about all this and join the fight to get rid of this lock down.

You are Town aligned and win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Badwolf (Shoji)

Hello and welcome.

You are Vanilla Townie. You're an aspiring journalist on the scoop of the latest disaster trend. You're hot on the case with all the details on what exactly caused this lock down, and you plan to find out the full truth. Your distinct approach and natural talent for journalism will indeed prove handy in this time of need.

You are Town aligned and win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Potassium (Keisuke)

Hello and welcome.

You are Vanilla Townie. You're a defender of justice and a shield for the weak. You believe mankind can be cruel and that you must protect others. You consider yourself a just person, however you are known to take things to the extreme. Your sense of righteousness can sometimes be blinded by your own conviction and morals.

You are Town aligned win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Ranmaru (Amane)

Hello and welcome.

You are Vanilla Townie. You are a priestess in a cult that believes that this apocalypse is merely a test by the gods. Your faith is resembled in your mannerisms, as you speak in a composed and precise manner. You are rather mature for someone your age, however you are not without faults. You have a bit of an identity complex, and you struggle to understand yourself at times. You believe that your faith should be of priority before your feelings however, so it doesn't bother you too much.

You are Town aligned and win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

GaGa (Mari)

Hello and welcome.

You are Town Voyeur. You're a natural health freak and you're always checking on everyone. This is justified however due to your previous occupation, but you can be a bit nosy. You find yourself on the hunt for vengeance due to some terrible incident that happened prior to this. Your normal attitude is now replaced with a sense of bitterness and worry, as you try to piece together all the answers in your head. Perhaps your special attributes will help you find what you're looking for.

Ability:

Once per night, you may choose a player. PM me with the command Target: (Player Name) That following phase, you will target a player and learn what was done to them that night (protection, investigation, etc), but not who did it.

You are Town aligned and win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

TEAM CHAOS:

Frozenflame/Xiroey (Naoya)

Hello and welcome.

You are Mafia Goon. You're a cunning manipulator and have the intelligence to back it up. You've decided to rebel against God himself and send the world into spiraling chaos, no matter at what cost.

Ability

Kill: Once per night, you may choose a player. PM me the command Kill: (Player Name) That player will die unless he/she is protected or your kill is stopped in any way. You and your partner are not allowed to kill twice, and one of you must decide who sends in the kill.

[collapse="Safe-claim"]

Hello and welcome.

You are Vanilla Townie. You fight for love, justice, and for your Dad. You are the embodiment of the cute girl with glasses trope, even more obvious with your cosplay outfit. You promise to deliver magical punishment to all evil-doers and have convinced yourself that you are the heroine that will save everyone from this lock down.

You are Town aligned and win when all threats to the town are eliminated.[/collapse]

You and your partner (pawndidater2) may discuss your evil plans here.

You win when you have a majority over the town and nothing can prevent this.

Pawndidater2 (Kaido)

Hello and welcome.

You are Mafia Goon. You're the leader of a local gang who loves to cause trouble. You couldn't give a **** about this lock down, as long as your members aren't involved. You believe that it is survival of the fittest in this lock down, and the strong will overcome the weak. You do not care how this happens, as long as you are the one standing on top.

Ability

Kill: Once per night, you may choose a player. PM me the command Kill: (Player Name) That player will die unless he/she is protected or your kill is stopped in any way. You and your partner are not allowed to kill twice, and one of you must decide who sends in the kill.

[collapse="Safe-claim"]
You are Town Cop. Perhaps given the short end of the stick in this whole ordeal, you were assigned here for business and business only. However, you are now stuck in Tokyo while your son has an operation. You are desperate to find any help you can to escape this nightmare and be there for your son, before it's too late.

Ability

Choose one player. You will be informed of their alignment and they will appear either Innocent or Guilty.

You are Town aligned and win when all threats are eliminated.[/collapse]

You and your partner (Xiroey) may discuss your evil plans here.

You win when you have a majority over the town and nothing can prevent this.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Alright, let's see what I got's.

Ran: Most obvious town all game. Strong Xiroey read that I just didn't give you enough credit for, which was entirely my bad, you were spot on with the scum replace but I was too wrapped up in my own reads to give it the attention it rightly deserved. Sorry I had to trade walls with you, I realized belatedly (as Raz pointed out to me) I wasn't making my intent clear enough when I addressed you, it could have been easily avoided(our confrontation) if I had. Less tunneling though please xD. It hurts as town to trade with you, because you get like a heat seeking missile type deal going.

As to your question, I wasn't trying to do anything , just play regularly, but a bit more laid back / lazy so to speak, because knowing my own meta, I was afraid I would straight dominate the thread and make the new player's not want to read or put any effort in themselves, and given that I'm terribly unreliable with reads, that'd be just bad. I was also trying to reign myself in to keep my post count down, and try to stick to the meat of it, when I just should have played naturally. Def learned to not get to caught up in myself, my big weakness that I saw here was I didn't keep the same level of open-mindedness to people I usually have. I figured the scum was in the newbs(right on that at least lol), but I got too caught up over-reading into everything to notice things that were right in front of me.

Wulf: Pretty clearly town to me somewhere around mid D2. I think you still need to work on growing a "mafia" skin. You can't let people calling you out on things, or arguing a certain way, influence how you read (I know it's not intentional to do it, but it happens). You have to essentially just shrug it off and look at the intent of the person posting in that manner. Good scum can and will try to manipulate more emotionally charged player's, either to get unfavorable reactions, or to push some other agenda, so keeping your "mafia" skin tough, will help you fight that.

Pawn: Daaaaaamn son, after that D1 wagon I was like: no freaking way with the speed and fever of that is he scum , and even the tone of your reactions to me at the time, and even looking back now, were not /are not what I'd expect from newScum. I'm sure if I went back and did a full analysis I'd find little things, such as over-defensiveness, or playing to stay alive over playing to catch scum, or reactions to things in thread that you had which were telling (Raz used some of these as I recall), but from my POV, most of that just improves with time and playing more. Hopefully you enjoyed running town in circles and enjoyed your first mafia game , and maybe you stick around , eh ?

Raz: Carry harder, please. But seriously, that was a hell of an entrance, I'm glad you came in and slapped me upside the head in our QT lol. I def deserved / needed it.

Mari: Sorry you had to replace, I was actually super interested to be neighbors with you, as that is essentially the best role for a newbie (You have a guaranteed clear in your back pocket). I can't comment really on what you can improve on, since you weren't really here xD. Hopefully you enjoyed trying to play while it lasted.

Gaga: Nice play overall, sorry I lynched you after you went inactive, I felt like the safety of your play was scum, when in reality it was probably moreso due to your PR. Or maybe I just mis-read it entirely. Also sorry your RL turned tipsy turvy , I think it would have been really interesting to see your response to my pressure. Would you say your role made you more careful ? If so, my advice would be : Always play to what feels natural, the term "meta" get's tossed around a lot, and it essentially means "How a player acts as X alignment" , or "How a certain type of player, plays X alignment". For newbies, if they play safe or reserved, other newbies( and in this case me) / player's, will see that as newScum trying to avoid the spotlight / stay in the shadows. Hopefully you enjoyed playing while you did, and hopefully if you liked it you stick around in mafia.

Xiroey: If you decide to try mafia again, try to play more naturally, what I said to Gaga applies to you as well, looking back ,I can now see where Ran got his scum feeling from. Providing content / reads / responses is one of the simplest complicated things there is to do as mafia, because you have to fake your intent, and treat it like you don't have the knowledge you do. Hopefully you enjoyed being in the game while you were , and I apologize for causing ya a headache by trading walls with Ran, Hopefully this doesn't color your opinion of mafia. That being said it's not for everyone (I know after my first game I was like : Damn, I am terribad at this. Maybe this isn't my thing ;_;.).

Kantrip: Strong play, my fellow canadian. You scared me though by being nice lol. For a split second I was like: Damn, what is he trying to play at here lol. It soon became pretty clear to me you were town though, just the way you laid out your pushes and ideas made it easy to see your intent. I don't think I can give you any advice to improve , really. Your probably better suited to just go back and look over this game to see if you find anything you feel like you need to do better / more consistently.

FF: Man, I'm glad Raz told me to FO, because I'm not sure I could have fought what you were laying down without it being emotionally influenced or just plain bad. The set up analysis was , admittedly, pretty good, if me and Raz were not neighbors, scum would have won easily. I can't give you any advice because a) i don't play a good scum game by any means and b) You've been here since I don't even know when, I'm sure if you feel like you could improve somewhere, you would figure it yourself. Good game

Rake: Bad play was bad. Shame on you *shakes fist

Turaz: I think the main reason people (including me) scum read you, was how you reacted to things, I know when your new and under the gun, you want to (non-intentionally) lash out to you aggressors, but you have to remember that you are town, and therefore have 0 to worry about, all you can do is lay out your intent, make your pushes and hope people listen. I also think you need to work on reading intent, as your Badwulfscum read (although gained from something which can in certain situations, be scummy. ) Was a little too surface level, as in, I didn't get the feeling you were scum reading him, for any other reason, than activity. Most of these things though, come with experience in mafia, and understanding what style of play you are comfortable with. Hopefully you enjoyed your time playing, and maybe you try your hand again sometime .

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

I actually read tone intentionally. Granted it's not always the best way of getting reads but it worked here.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

PLAYER THOUGHTS

1. GaGa (Mari) - I'm upset you had to leave this game. I'm also upset that I didn't get to see you play your role. I was very much impressed with your early game play and your thoughtful approach. I feel you have the right mindset for Mafia and even if there are some things to work out, you could go really far in my opinion. I hope you join another game, or I get to see you play again.

2. Frozenflame751/Xiroey (Naoya) - Not much I wanna SPECIFICALLY comment on. FF, I think you were a fine partner to Pawn and you were very informative and very helpful to him. I also think you are good at arguments, if that means anything to you. I really didn't find much flaw and I was scratching my head at the fact all your hard work to prove Rake + Raz went to waste. Your posts actually made me consider my choice as I found myself, from a mod perspective, agreeing with them. You were very logical in that regard. I'm glad you joined, even if you're not happy with the outcome. Xiroey, I'm also happy with your play. You nearly had everyone town-read you on Day One! I think there are some things you need to work on and some things I noticed. You shouldn't feel scared or intimidated by the town; it should be the opposite. You're the informed minority and you're aware of your partner. Townies don't have that and they have to discern alignments and worry about reading players. You should use this to your advantage more often, but also learn how a townie operates. I felt you were good at playing a Noob townie, but in the end you were really focused on your image more than anything. Try to be more open.

3. Turazok (Gin) - I don't have much to comment on you either. I think activity was a huge problem, mostly. If you're still interested, join another game and perhaps reflect on this game to see what Mafia is really all about.

4. Raziek/Mari (Hero/Kazuya) - Thanks for replacing in. You did fine this game, and I have no problems with you. You also did pretty well at contending with FF too. Mari, sucked to see you go. Hope you join another game.

5. pwndidater2 (Kaido) - Very nice game for a newbie. I think you were a bit hasty with claiming cop like that, but as FF said it, you really had the reigns and you were nearly carrying your faction the whole time. I don't have much to criticize than perhaps attain a meta and learn to emulate a townie, but that usually requires being a townie or playing another game, which I hope to see.

6. Badwolf (Shoji) - I'm indifferent about your play. While you were indeed right, I believe that your actions were far more influenced by your emotions than anything. Your hammer on FF seemed like you only hammered him because you were annoyed with him, and you didn't really take much else into account. I don't feel you understand Mafia yet and you have a very long way to go. Your play was overall not very good, but I cannot deny that you made a right decision. However, I predict in your future you will make many wrong decisions because of your attitude. Please, keep all personal gripes and grudges to yourself next time.

7. Ranmaru (Amane) - Nice job dude. Not much to comment on here either.

8. Potassium - (Keisuke) Same for you. Sorry.

9. Rake (Yuzu) - You did fine. Having the right reads isn't everything. Your play might have been sloppy and I feel that you talk too much, but you're very good at emulating what a townie should be. Props.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Yeah, now if only I could fake that, I'd be a better scummer.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Again, I meant to read the tone of the message, I was also considering the actual content of the message, however, I wasn't actually posting in thread about it. The real problem that I had was that FF was right about the setup, and I had had my own qualms about it as well. What the problem was, is that he was being very aggressive when saying it. Also considering that he hadn't given rebuttals to certain key arguments that Raz had, I was more inclined to believe Raz. Yes I agree that the setup was (I mean no offense) but really annoying in the aspect that the PR's were misnomer-ed almost all of the time, whcih was basically designed to **** with us. I also knew that crumbing was a fairly bad thing to follow, however, FF's flailing and aggrivated cursing wasn't helping me believe him any more. It's a personal prefrence that people have a decent argument that they can put out without putting out insults. There's no point to it, at a certain point you have to realize that it's just adding fuel to the fire and it would be better to just cool down and try and work with people instead of insulting them within the same argument that you're trying to convince them that you're correct. Also, the spread of FUD over most of his posts had me inclined not to believe him either, if he had left me to ponder over the actual points that he had made, I would have been more accepting of them. Instead he calls me a lapdog and tries to put me down personally. It's an ugly thing to do and half the reason I didn't believe him as much as Raz or Rake. It was a really bad flail that cost him the game.

 

[pawndidater2]

I'd like to tell everyone how they did, but since I was looking at you like pawns (lol) the whole game, that'd be a bit difficult. There are a few things that stick out though:

FF: CHILL. THE. ****. OUT. You cost us the game because your arguing was so aggressive. In the future think about who you're supposed to be; a townie with a legitimate arguement doesn't have any need to be so distressed.

Rake: You could have had better posts towards the end. Raz had to cover for you. If BW had been leaning towards my side your posts would only have put you in a worse position.

The thing about who you're supposed to be can be a lesson to everyone, even if you're not scum. If you sit and think about your position for a minute you can sway people towards your side.

 

[pawndidater2]

@Ran

Not sure what I learned... more or less everything I was doing. I've always had a pretty good understanding of psychology so it didn't take much for me to get in the swing of things.

As for my feelings, at first I was like "OMFG ERRYONE ON MY CASE WAT DO I DOOOOOOO" but after I got out of that, and everyone started town reading me, I got pretty smug. Probably too smug. I didn't give that much thought to my claim. Lesson learnt.

 

[BSL]

I was semi-reading the game, and to me it seemed like you came out way too confident. When you started your push, it had a #masterplan vibe to it, so I was pretty convinced you weren't town.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I understand where you're all coming from with this whole "you shoulda been more chill and nice FF" but I think you all are very much not looking at this from the POV of what I would have done as town.

As Ran (I think it was Ran?) mentioned earlier in the post game, what if I really had been town and Rake/Raz WERE gambitting scum. If that was the case, everything I argued would have been 100% legitimate, yet wolf wouldn't even, as Ran put it, "give me the time of day."

If I truly was town and in that very same position, I would have argued with the same fervor I did in this game. The intensity of my argument wasn't a result of me being "flailing scum" as people have been calling it. I argued with that level of intensity because literally, if I was in a town position this game, I would have legitimately gone with my setup analysis, concluded that neighbors as a claim was complete garbage for a newbie game, and pushed that line of argument to show that Raz/Rakes claim was a huge gambit. And I would have argued for that with the same level of confidance, and the same disdain for people who refused to listen to the FACTS that I was presenting.

I was scum, and I got lynched, and I lost. That doesn't mean though that you (Wolf) were right for the "right" reasons. Hindsight is 20/20 dude. Literally, try imagining if I was actually town. Think of how ******** you would have felt for not listening to any of my factual argument and going with the "nice guy" who was coaxing you into voting his way. You certainly wouldn't been running victory laps proclaiming how "awesome" your intentional tone reading is, now would you Badwolf? Sure, it worked this game, but to pretend like you nailed me as scum by reading my tone is ridiculous. You read my tone, didn't like it, and lynched me. You HAPPENED to make the right call. That's really all that happened.

 

[Raziek]

Paging Overswarm to explain to Frozenflame that mafia is as much about convincing people to listen to you, as it is lynching the right people.

It doesn't matter if my reasons were "wrong" in your opinion, because I successfully got you(r) (faction) lynched.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

So instead of learning from you mistakes and trying to work with people, you're going to call me out on my playstyle, which worked, and tell me that all I did was luck?

Woo that's fair.

As you said, hindsight is 20/20, and yet you don't care to look back and see things you could have done better. You look back and see that I made a more difficult decision that won Town the game and you're salty because I didn't use the same logic that everyone else does. I've never said that my tone reading is the best reading, however, it's the way that I play the game. If you actually listened to me at any point telling you to calm down and say something useful in a better tone, I would have been more inclined to listen to you. WRT the imagining that you were town, I was doing that throughout the entire last Day, I was putting myself in your shoes and thinking what would I have done in the same circumstances. It was fairly similar sans the unwarranted insults to my, and others', character. Considering that you only argued two points being setup and that he was being nice, Raz had you trumped on almost every other side. Right now you're blaming everything and everyone else possible for your loss. Take some of the blame yourself and try and learn from it instead of being stubborn about your "correct" way of playing. IMO if one way of playing was set up and followed, the game would be fairly flat and uninteresting. The only real reason I play is because of the constantly shifting play of the people and trying to see past that into their motives. Forcing everyone to be cold and logical loses a part of the game. Being offensive in all the game including now is really starting to annoy me because right now you're assuming that I've only thought out one side of the game, while I've been thinking about everything. Yes, tone is important to me because I get a base read off of reactions. That's the reason I was constantly telling you to calm down and the reason I gambit-ed Raz. I was looking for a reaction that either one of you displayed and you were the only one who I could see as scum because of it. Try and take defeat more gracefully than blaming it on everyone else.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Paging Overswarm to explain to Frozenflame that mafia is as much about convincing people to listen to you, as it is lynching the right people.

It doesn't matter if my reasons were "wrong" in your opinion, because I successfully got you(r) (faction) lynched.

Pretty much this.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

FF was scummy for two very legit reasons Day 3, and unless I missed Raz or Rake saying it Day 3 I don't think anyone has stated it yet.

I wonder if you guys can figure it out?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

BW is on the right track with the whole tone thing btw.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

BW is on the right track with the whole tone thing btw.

Thank god someone sees my side of this.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Well I don't think that FF being aggressive is necessarily scummy in itself, but given the context of the situation I think it was a scummy thing to do.

Can you tell me why I think this BW?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

WRT the imagining that you were town, I was doing that throughout the entire last Day, I was putting myself in your shoes and thinking what would I have done in the same circumstances.

Specifically, go into more detail on this.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Specifically, go into more detail on this.

I was assuming that, if I was scum put in his position, what my choices were. Granted, he didn't have many because of the pure nature of both claims, so he wasn't able to do much other than say that Raz/Rake's claim was bad and try and convince the town that I was right. If I had been put in his position, I would have probably been doing the same, but again I would have tried to be more of a people's person just so I knew that I could get them to listen to me without wanting to put my head in a meat grinder. It's all about attitude, first appearances, and keeping up images. To be a truly good mafia player IMO you have to learn how to adapt quickly and be able to learn from your mistakes, like most anything else. Personally, if the person with the most amount of thread power was telling me to calm down, I would do it, rather than instigating something that would have put me in a bad place with said person.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Really though, FF didn't have much freedom with his offense, however, I would have hoped that instead of reiterating the same setup argument several times over, that he would have at least gone on the defensive.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Paging Overswarm to explain to Frozenflame that mafia is as much about convincing people to listen to you, as it is lynching the right people.

It doesn't matter if my reasons were "wrong" in your opinion, because I successfully got you(r) (faction) lynched.

lmao the day you or anyone else here can teach me something about what mafia's about that I didn't already know, I'll stop playing forever.

What's funny about you Raz, is you legitimately shift the focus of debates away from their original focal point, and try to make them about some other point that you always think you have the upper hand on. I actually can't tell anymore if you do this intentionally, or if you actually think you are staying germane to what was originally being said. You have a natural knack for moving the goalposts.

I never once claimed that you didn't successfully do your job. Where in the post-game did I ever criticize your attacks on me, or claim that you didn't successfully play your part as town?

I've never said any of that. I've explained why I think the setup was garbage, why I think my analysis about the setup was completely correct and should have been given more of a chance by Badwolf, and why I was frustrated with the fact that your (razieks) presentation was a primary factor in why badwolf decided the way he did.

I'm not claiming that you didn't successfully employ a skillset to achieve your wincon by any means necessary. And yes, convincing people to listen to you IS a part of mafia. What's frustrating is having people not listen for ******** reasons.

For example, imagine you're in large game endgame with 3 people. You've been on EVERY scum lynch in the game, and you're town, and you and the remaining scum have already cross voted. Now it's down to the last townie to decide. You lay out the facts for him that you've been on LITERALLY every scum lynch, and you do so with intensity and fierceness because you believe that the FACTS support your case that you're town, and the other guy is scum. You have no way to lie or misrepresent the facts because they are objective, unchangeable facts not up for interpretation. But despite this, the other townie gets upset at how "mean" you are at laying out the facts for them and thinks you're being condescending by trying to push that argument on them, and out of spite, they lynch you and throw the game.

In that scenario, you would have lost the game by virtue of "not being able to convince people to listen to you". But does that mean you did the wrong thing? Was your decision to fiercely advocate for your own case despite being rough around the edges, ACTUALLY a bad decision in a game of mafia?

To argue that the person voting on the basis of their emotional reaction to the case presented to them was actually in the right, and that the blame should lie on the "big meanie" is perhaps the most casualfaggy and absurd proposition about what mafia is "really" about that I've ever heard.

Yes there is merit in altering your presentation to have strong mass appeal. That doesn't mean though that you should always be nice and flowery at all times because running the risk of making someone upset and throwing the game is "bad mafia play". It just isn't.

Being able to convince people to listen to you is a huge part of mafia, yes. However, arguing that you need to cater to anyone and everyone no matter how bullheaded, emotionally volatile, or illogical they are, by being all nice and comforting is ****ing ludicrous.

I wasn't able to convince badwolf to go with my argument, and as such I lost the game. In this instance, being nice beat being logical. Anyone who thinks that this is an indication that being nice is more important than being logical (or anywhere even close to as important in fact) is completely ****ing deluding themselves. Just because it works on Badwolf doesn't mean it's like the new ****ing meta for mafia play.

So in summary, did I play optimally to win this game given the players left and the circumstances? Obviously not.

Did the mafia have a fair shot at winning relative to the town, given the setup and the strategy that was given to us by the safeclaim that was deliberately misleading? No.

Did the townies make the right call in the end and get the win? Yes.

Did they win in a manner that was impressive and worthy of being proud of? Not even close.

If anyone should be reflecting on their playstyle, it should be you badwolf. You're a walking, talking example of someone who doesn't understand hindsight bias. Yes, you made the right decision. However, your reasons for doing so were garbage, and honestly will not land you reliable results in the future. I can guarantee you that. You're going to be taken for a ride by scum much more often if you read based on tone and vote based on emotional appeal, than you would if you based your actions on more logical criteria.

Winning one ****ing game by going with your "tone reading" doesn't make you a ****ing guru of how mafia ought to be played dude. It just doesn't. And in a game broken in your favor at that. I seriously don't understand how you all can sit up on your high horses and claim that I don't know what I'm talking about when you barely won a broken ****ing game in your favor.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

You caught me at a really bad time. Have fun with this post.

lmao the day you or anyone else here can teach me something about what mafia's about that I didn't already know, I'll stop playing forever.

Wow, you really need to get over yourself, holy **** I don't think I've ever heard something so ****ing egotistical and arrogant in my life. I was really hoping for better from you.

I never once claimed that you didn't successfully do your job. Where in the post-game did I ever criticize your attacks on me, or claim that you didn't successfully play your part as town?

You criticized his play fairly well when you ranted about how posting from a QT was a bad thing that shouldn't ever happen.

I'm not claiming that you didn't successfully employ a skillset to achieve your wincon by any means necessary. And yes, convincing people to listen to you IS a part of mafia. What's frustrating is having people not listen for ******** reasons.

What's really annoying is that you keep thinking that you're right for cussing people out and trying to basically guilt me into voting for Raz or Rake. I think that you need to actually work on those logic skills that you keep talking about instead of tearing down others' personalities for an argument.

But despite this, the other townie gets upset at how "mean" you are at laying out the facts for them and thinks you're being condescending by trying to push that argument on them, and out of spite, they lynch you and throw the game.

Now you've pissed me off.

And now I feel as if you haven't been listening to me. If you had actually read my posts, instead of trying to convince everyone that you're right at everything everywhere. You would have realized that I hadn't just been judging you on your tone. Your arguments were ****, basically you kept reiterating the same damn thing over and over again, with different cuss words and derogatory statements around it. It's like me saying "Cats are cool". Then in another post "**** you, cats are cool", and "You're an idiot who doesn't know animals worth a ****, cats are cool". After a while it gets to the point that it's basically like reading the same book 20 times over with different words to explain the same meaning. It's ********, you keep ranting on about how you've been put at the short end of the stick and how it wasn't fair. Guess what? Life isn't fair, ****ing deal with it. If you can't accept a game's rules or positions and adapt to the problems that it has, ****ing get out. You don't deserve to be listened to if all you do is complain about how other's lives are easier and how they didn't have to work as hard. ****ing grow up, get some balls, and do something. Holy **** it's like listening to a kid whine about how his friends are getting more toys than he is. Really ****ing ********.

In that scenario, you would have lost the game by virtue of "not being able to convince people to listen to you". But does that mean you did the wrong thing? Was your decision to fiercely advocate for your own case despite being rough around the edges, ACTUALLY a bad decision in a game of mafia?

Yeah pretty much yes. If people have the tendency to not listen to you when you're frothing at the mouth like a wild hound, I suggest that you change the style of posting into something less... grotesque. Far be it from me to ask someone to be a little kind instead of throwing someone's choices in their face and telling them that they were wrong. Take it upon yourself to make a change, instead of trying to force others to what you want.

To argue that the person voting on the basis of their emotional reaction to the case presented to them was actually in the right, and that the blame should lie on the "big meanie" is perhaps the most casual***gy and absurd proposition about what mafia is "really" about that I've ever heard.

Sorry. Newbies and old people alike! Mafia is about trying to bring others down so you may win the game. It doesn't matter who the **** you step over as long as you get that win in the end. Please, insult me to your heart's desire and I will try to do the same.

That doesn't mean though that you should always be nice and flowery at all times because running the risk of making someone upset and throwing the game is "bad mafia play". It just isn't.

You're missing the point again, I didn't throw the game. I had made a logical decision based upon my observations, the fact that you lost shouldn't piss you off this much. Jesus Christ it's a ****ing game.

I wasn't able to convince badwolf to go with my argument, and as such I lost the game. In this instance, being nice beat being logical. Anyone who thinks that this is an indication that being nice is more important than being logical (or anywhere even close to as important in fact) is completely ****ing deluding themselves. Just because it works on Badwolf doesn't mean it's like the new ****ing meta for mafia play.

No, again you don't have any way that you can say this. I've said before and I will reiterate myself at the very high risk of becoming redundant to the point of idiocracy. I was reading your tone, however, I was also reading the message behind the tone. God forbid, I allow the person with the better attitude to affect my decision more than the person who's acting like a wild animal.

Did the mafia have a fair shot at winning relative to the town, given the setup and the strategy that was given to us by the safeclaim that was deliberately misleading? No.

Don't care anymore.

If anyone should be reflecting on their playstyle, it should be you badwolf. You're a walking, talking example of someone who doesn't understand hindsight bias. Yes, you made the right decision. However, your reasons for doing so were garbage, and honestly will not land you reliable results in the future. I can guarantee you that. You're going to be taken for a ride by scum much more often if you read based on tone and vote based on emotional appeal, than you would if you based your actions on more logical criteria.

one ****ing game by going with your "tone reading" doesn't make you a ****ing guru of how mafia ought to be played dude. It just doesn't. And in a game broken in your favor at that. I seriously don't understand how you all can sit up on your high horses and claim that I don't know what I'm talking about when you barely won a broken ****ing game in your favor.

Holy ****, this entire paragraph makes me want to vomit. Basically this is saying that I shouldn't feel decent about myself because: 1. The game was broken 2. You don't agree with my playstyle 3. You're ****ing salty as **** about losing.

1: Granted the game was different from normal newbie games. It's not a bad thing! It's giving people a chance to actually move forward quicker within the system and understand what other roles do. If you can't accept change that's your fault, but don't ***** to me about how you're the victim here because you didn't have a great standpoint of the game.

2: I really don't ****ing care at this point. Yeah I understand that decent players can fake tone. Holy **** no ****ing way. It's like people should actually be nice! Oh wait....

Holy ****, maybe people should actually be decent to each other.... Is that a thought that ever crossed your hopelessly deluded mind? Maybe, you might have more people who agree with you if you didn't cuss them out and try and make them feel like **** the entire time you're also trying to convince them that you're right.

Just a thought.

3: This entire endgame disgusts me to a point of hoping that the newbies don't take any new knowledge away from your play.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I was following along with this game. Good job to town.

I do agree that BW prolly made the right call for the wrong reasons, but I don't necessarily know that he would have made the wrong call if the situation were different. In the case where Raz and Rake were actually the mafia, and the argument against their neighbor claim, there's too many other factors to consider. Like, if they were the mafia, it's unlikely they would have claimed neighbors in the first place. They also, certainly, wouldn't have claimed it as masons with a misleading name. Had they been the mafia, the lylo situation would likely have been completely different. Who's to say if BW would have made the right or wrong call in that scenario? If Raz and Rake had, indeed, been the mafia, I likely still would have lynched frozen for those reasons.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Pretty stacked setup for town.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Frozenflame751, LSAT logic isn't persuasive in convincing the internet lay men into reconsidering a new position. It helps to put some structure into a terrible mess of an argument or to put someone down for an incorrect reversal on a conditional statement. But most people are really awful at the LSAT and most people won't grasp formal logic, much less LSAT logic.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I agree with you to an extent Acro, but I definitely think you're underrating its value.

The layman might not grasp formal logic immediately, but if you walk people through it they usually can pretty easily see how you can categorize things into must be trues, could be trues/maybes, and must be falses. All information that you deduce or attempt to deduce falls into one of those three categories based on your criteria of evaluation. When you use formal logic to determine just what exactly you know for sure, and what you don't, most people can grasp that as long as its presented in a clear way.

Your point is taken in that I agree it's certainly not the most efficient argumentative tool on the internet, but mastery of it can make your arguments much easier to follow, even if not everyone understand the whole process.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

I'm going to add more to this, but I wanted to say that Dgames killed some of the logic questions I had taken from my LSAT test prep. So it isn't right for me to say that comment here without adding that in, because as far as I remember Raziek, BSL, and Zen had right answers to a couple of questions that were supposed to be toughies.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

well i was gonna post some comments and **** but given all the walls and opinions in here i don't really feel like it anymore.

pawn wins best newbie

oh, and that cop 'safeclaim' looks dangerously close to a ******* mod. you're essentially giving scum the tools to trip themselves up.

i think that's all that needs saying. concision is pro-town.

 

[pawndidater2]

pawn wins best newbie

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Had scum won, I would be more than fine to give Pawndidater MvP.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Regarding the setup: I made a brain error and I originally did have it as Unconfirmed neighbors, I don't know how I messed it up but it was too late and I forgot completely.

SORRY

 

[rid****ulous]

Woops. Soupagoof there.