Newbie 24 - SMT: Devil Survivor LAW IS VICTORIOUS #1 CHAOS LOSES AHAHAHAH

[#HBC | BadWolf]

FF, any comments? I see viewing.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

All of this is still 100% true btw:

This is my dismantling of Raziek's attempt to try and make his claim look plausible:

Voyeur does NOT act as a Cop in a neighbor setup. Just...wow.

Let's talk about what a voyeur can see in your scenario. And let's actually think about it, and not half-assedly fake setup analysis like our friend Raziek. I'll even help you out buddy, and let us take for granted that the scum have an active PR.

The voyeur can then see two things happen: Nightkills (which is useless because seeing some get targeted with a kill is only unique info to you until the next day when they inevitably flip, since you only get the ACTION used on your target, NOT the player using the action) and the Scum PR (we can assume RBer or like framer here just for the same of example).

What kind of info then can the voyeur gather? Literally all you can reliable deduce is what the other PR is. In this case, the scum PR. That's it. You can find out what other powers are in the game as the voyeur. Pretending you can deduce anything else reliably is pure WIFOM.

Thus, we would have a red herring.

And the funniest part is, if we assume the scum have a PR in this scenario, EVEN THEIR PR IS A RED HERRING TO THEM (the scum team)!

If you're a scum team going against a voyeur and neighbors, having an RBer is USELESS. You actually come out in the negative, because the only beneficial thing to do would be to RB the voyeur. But if you knew that the voyeur was the only PR in the game, you'd know that you're BETTER OFF NOT EVEN USING YOUR PR, because then the voyeur is useless.

Having a framer/lawyer/tailor is also useless, since theres no cop.

Raziek's justification for the voyeur/neighbor setup REQUIRES that BOTH SIDES ARE GETTING RED HERRINGED (if we grant him his assumption that the scum have a PR to "justify" the voyeur). Can you see what I'm talking about here? The setup would literally be a bunch of red herrings and useless powers if the game was designed the way Raz claims it is. And it's a ****ing newbie game. Think about that. A NEWBIE GAME. I'm all for being cautious about trying to read what the mod would do, but I'm pretty confident that Soup wouldn't outfit both sides with a bunch of useless, misleading powers in a NEWBIE GAME.

No, you don't deliver your arguments with a rough tone, you deliver insults with a rough tone. I tell it how it is. I'm not even joking that every ****ing post in this Day has at least one shot either placed at me or at Raz. To be honest, I'm ****ing tired of it. You're annoying me and other people by assuming that you're the smartest person in the thread and going from there. It's not enough to get me started but it's surely getting on my nerves and I'm placing less weight behind your posts because of it. Either calm the **** down and deliver arguments rationally or leave.


Btw, my meta is to attack tone. I don't care for loud people.

This post is proof that you don't actually understand what ad hominem is. And you admit that you evaluate arguments based on their tone, not their content. Good to know for future reference.

It's also pretty funny that you tell me to "calm the **** down" when your delivery here looks almost exactly like the stuff of mine you're complaining about. Priceless.

Also, I don't assume I'm the smartest person in the thread. I proved it when I was the only one who was capable of delivering accurate, logical, and factual setup analysis. Sorry that that annoys you though. I won't lose any sleep at night knowing that I'll never be able to convince people who don't understand reason by using it. Atleast you admit your bias though, that's a step.

@ Raziek: Nice try with the rebuttal wrt the whole "you guys rushed the claim" and "you guys planned the claim" alleged contradiction.

It's not actually a contradiction. You created a false dilemma. Rushing the claim and planning the claim itself as a long term strategy are totally independent actions. You can easily PLAN to do something, but then decide in a hurried manner when to do it. You could have been planning to make the fake claim all game, and then because of whatever circumstances, have been forced to rush the claim in twilight as you did here. Rushing the actual act of claiming, and planning to make the claim, again, are completely independent and the existence of planning does not preclude the possibility of botching/rushing the actual claim itself. But hey, you almost got me there.

@ Pwn, sorry bro, we tried. Got ****ed in the end by a wack setup and an incredibly misleading safeclaim. We got cop as a safeclaim (which is a terribad game design choice in general) and then were basically pigeonholed into getting punished for using it due to no fault of our own. That was completely out of our hands man.

We were both goons btw. And anyone who thought I was coaching pwn through everything is dead wrong. Dude has his **** together and held his own. I left the reins in his hands mostly since I A.) replaced in and B.) am an IC obviously and this is supposed to be his learning experience.

Scum QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/Pb6MCDwb58H

gg town, gratz on the win

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Q: Who was that Metatron guy? What is Law and what is Chaos?

Flavor. Also a ****ing baller. Don't **** with Metatron. Law and Chaos are endings usually in the SMT series, which has a huge influence of religion in it. Metatron is literally, if you google it, the voice of God. Law endings are just as it says. Law. Divine punishment, and peace for all who side with God. Chaos is the opposite usually, which is more so centered with rebelling against god and (sometimes) siding with Demons. It really doesn't get anymore simple than two sides of a coin, Law and Chaos.

Q: Why is Law the Town? Why is Chaos the Mafia? Would Neutral be indy?

Because Metatron. He don't put up with dat Chaos ****. Nuh-uh. Not in his house. Hilariously enough, probably. Neutral is more so favored with humanity itself than a specific power.

Q: Role PMs? Why was there is no character flavor or names?

I left it up to interpretation and I didn't want to spoil anything. It's plainly obvious who is who if you know the game.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Yep, probably my worst game in the history of anything ever.

Just going to take from it what I can and walk away.

Glad you liked the gifs lol, felt they were pretty great myself xD

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

"It's also pretty funny that you tell me to "calm the **** down" when your delivery here looks almost exactly like the stuff of mine you're complaining about. Priceless."

People piss me off, I start to cuss. Sue me.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Is there a green room? If so, link?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Oh hey neat, so I was completely correct on Voyeur being a Weak Cop.

Giving scum the confirmed Cop fakeclaim seems a bit strong though, but whatever. It was fun.

It was indeed strong. It made up for the lack of PRs. They coulda gone a long way if they played the cop claim right. I don't know why people are bellyaching about the setup. It was approved and it's balanced. I'm not sure why scum let two neighbors live into another day after claiming.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Oh and being able to discuss out of game metadata like QT's is complete bull**** and I can't believe Rake and Raz stooped to that level of bull**** and that Soup actually tolerated it

Like if you actually think that's healthy to the game of mafia you seriously need to reconsider what you think the game is about

"It's also pretty funny that you tell me to "calm the **** down" when your delivery here looks almost exactly like the stuff of mine you're complaining about. Priceless."

People piss me off, I start to cuss. Sue me.

WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Is this is literally how you think?

You start with: "HEY YOU'RE BEING MEAN WHEN YOU DELIVER YOUR ARGUMENTS AND YOU'RE CUSSING! I'M GOING TO NOT LISTEN TO YOUR ARGUMENTS AND TELL YOU TO STOP DOING THAT CUZ IT'S WRONG"

And then when you literally do the EXACT same thing (i.e. cussing, having nasty tone) you say "lol i get mad deal with it bro lolololololol"

Have you no shame?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I think it was dirty, but not unorthodox. Rules state that you can paraphrase any outside information, but I honestly wasn't looking too far into the thread to notice any possible metadata like you're claiming.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Oh and being able to discuss out of game metadata like QT's is complete bull**** and I can't believe Rake and Raz stooped to that level of bull**** and that Soup actually tolerated it

Like if you actually think that's healthy to the game of mafia you seriously need to reconsider what you think the game is about

I think you need to stop insulting people. Love and tolerate.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Is there a green room? If so, link?

There was. I let it die and Orbo posted a couple of times.

Let me go get Role PMs.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

lol no worries about it then XD

 

[Raziek]

I stooped?

Ok. Sure.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

and every-pony lived happily ever after.

The end

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Hey Raz, guess what character your Role PM was? Everyone else can too if they want.

 

[ranmaru]

I will if i could see it.

Also congrats guys. Shout outs later.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Ugh, I'm done for the night. Long day of kicking ass and taking names, now I must rest for this hellish of weeks.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Hell if I know lol.

Prolly whatever Raz guessed it was.

 

[Raziek]

If I had to guess, I was Atsuro and Rake was Yuzu.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Close. You were Hero/Kazuya. Rake was indeed Yuzu.

 

[ranmaru]

I'm also glad I posted the Xiroey case btw. May not have been as sound as I wanted it to be, but since Xiroey wasn't doing a thing, I posted it to get reactions as well. And I did get some. What else can I do with a slot that I'm not liking and isn't possibly going to do anything? :]

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Giving a cop as a safeclaim in a small setup like this with TWO CONFIRMED TOWNIES to each other is NOT a strong fake claim. Jesus holy ****.

You are literally baiting the scum into using a fake claim when they run significant risk of claiming a guilty on one of the neighbors that they have ZERO KNOWLEDGE OF AND HAVE NO WAY OF FINDING OUT IF THEY EXIST BECAUSE WE HAD NO POWERS.

You gave us a safeclaim that NORMALLY is a strong claim to have, but given what you put in this game, actually made zero sense and literally could have ****ed us in numerous ways. Seriously, giving scum cop as a safeclaim is just a ****ty idea in general because it's bad, uninteresting, thoughtless game design. What's even worse is giving it as a safeclaim and having it be a LIABILITY since we could have easily claimed a guilty on a confirmed townie at any point in the game, and had the claim blow up in our face. Even if we could convince the town to lynch one neighbor, on the flip the claimed cop would be instagibbed the next day.

Like not trying to **** on you soup, but please don't make yourself look foolish trying to defend that choice.

And neighbors in a setup this small is just garbage anyway. Giving the town free, hidden confirms that the scum literally have no way of dealing with other than NKing is such bull****. You literally were trying to force the scums hand on kills when scum are supposed to have options.

Setup would have worked better with more people dude, but seriously, awful newbie setup and I'm not even trying to be mean.

Call me salty all you want but I don't complain about setups unless they're legitimately bad.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Badwolf, please await my comments on your play before doing victory laps in this thread. I have some harsh words for you.

 

[Raziek]

Fair enough. Either could apply, I suppose.

Introverted led me towards Atsuro rather than Kazuya.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Why didn't you kill one of the neighbors? What were you even thinking? Please, I don't mind salt but Pawn's idea was not thought out there.

 

[ranmaru]

FF you could have nk'd the neighbors and then just claim a guilty on a non-confirmed townie knowing that a voyeur died tho? I think Pawn's guilty on rake made it into a 1v1 just because he 'trusted' me. He put himself in that situation because he felt he had to.

EDIT: Most likely on Badwolf. Then you would have the game prolly

Not saying this counters your points or anything, I can see the bad side of it too and get ya

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Aww I thought I did better this time...

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I stooped?

Ok. Sure.

Are you actually implying that you're proud of paraphrasing your entire QT?

Like you actually think that needing to do that to legitimize your claim is something that you shouldn't feel bad about?

I mean, I know you think you're hot **** because you convinced an easily emotionally manipulated person to lynch the big fat meanie, but cmon dude have more pride than that.

@ Soup: Paraphrasing thoughts mentioned in a QT is one thing, especially for a hydra for example. That's totally acceptable because of course the two heads of the hydra are going to have a QT for each other, and of course they're going to corroborate what the other says. Since hydras being hydras is public knowledge, paraphrasing and listing what was said in a QT isn't introducing anything controversial.

But allowing neighbors with a QT to paraphrase the whole thing and tell what was said roughly in each ****ing post? That's just ridiculous.

You realize that the only way you can argue that that's fair is to say "lol well scum fakeclaiming can just make up their own fake QT **** herpa derpa". Now you're putting an unfair burden on the scum to have to waste tons of ****ing time fabricating AN ENTIRE GAMES WORTH OF COMMUNICATION WITH THEIR ALLEGED PARTNER. That's just not ****ing fair, at all. Legit masons can just cut and paste and make small changes here and there. Scum trying to do the same thing would literally have to ****ing make up the whole damn thing, and they'd have to do a ****ing good job just to make it look legit.

Like if you think for a second that allowing QT's to be paraphrased like that is healthy and fair for the game, you seriously don't respect good mafia play.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Why didn't you kill one of the neighbors? What were you even thinking? Please, I don't mind salt but Pawn's idea was not thought out there.

Couldn't, he wasn't able to properly plan out his cop fake claim because he didn't have anyone explain to him what it meant at the start of the game, and thus, with the kill options we had at the end of the game, we had no legitimate options for fake claiming a guilty on anyone through him because his stances throughout the game wouldn't have made sense with having had investigations on people.

There was no winning combo. The safeclaim was ****, it wasn't explained, and the setup itself was DESIGNED to put the cop fakeclaimer at risk.

I won't stand here and pretend like we had NO chance to win the game. We probably could have made a better decision. But let's not pretend like this setup was all fine and dandy and that everything that happen was my/pwns fault. That's just ludicrous.

Like seriously, given the situation we were in because of needing to try and stay consistent with pwns stances and him having been a cop all game, I seriously thought we had a better shot at winning the "neighbors in this setup is bull****" argument. The facts for that argument were legitimately on our side, and I don't at all regret my decision to try and run with that argument. It's the only argument I had, but it was a good one, and anyone who says differently is deluding themselves considering no one could even mount a defense anywhere even close to taking my analysis down on that front.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Haven't read the game. But I have to agree that I don't espouse roles that involve a QT between two or more townies because it gives you them so much meta leverage. This is not even an example of a QT mechanic being used, but a personal QT being posted by Kuz when he replaced out one game and left a QT with all his reads from D1. That could have been faked, but Kuz had to go into the game expecting to seriously mind game and that takes serious commitment on the part of mafia. The same goes for sharing any QT information in neighborhood or masonry. Assuming that it is active and being used, it is just not a likely mafia gambit since it potentially risks making a blatant appearance that both partners are linked in some way and losing two members often cripples the scum team as a whole. It also binds the mafia team from making flexible snap decisions when the game gets closer to lylo when it becomes more transparent who is mafia and who is not.

 

[ranmaru]

FF I would like some tips on arguing though. Would help me convince people I guess.

 

[ranmaru]

I'm doing shout outs now

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Practice learning logic. More specifically, educate yourself about formal logic. Learn to spot major fallacies and how to avoid making illogical conjecture.

I know this probably doesn't sound helpful but I'm 100% serious. I scored in the 95th percentile on the LSAT and I teach the test professionally for Kaplan prep classes. There is no greater tool to becoming a better arguer than having the toolbelt of logic on your side. If you can look at an argument and see its component pieces, you can see where the weak links and assumptions are. I seriously teach this **** multiple days every week.

After you've mastered logic, you can then work on other supportive stuff, like persuasive rhetoric, thought organization, and other elements of presentation.

You probably don't want my advice on that stuff though because apparently not sugar coating arguments isn't allowed and casual fagging reigns lol

But seriously though Ran, if there's anything more specific you want tips on I'd be more than happy to help. Feel free to contact me privately and I'll see what I can do. This post is kinda overgeneral but so was the request for advice haha

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

If the neighbors knew each other were confirmed townies, then that's tough on mafia. Starting on D1, they already have a 2/7 chance of hitting mafia. There's no way there wouldn't be only one mafia in a 9-person newbie game, so they have an easier time mapping connections and flips which really helps them with alignment analysis. The fact that Raziek was neighbors with BadWolf was just a disastrous neighborhood combination because Raziek can analyze people and lead town while BadWolf is usually an easy scum mislynch because his points don't come across as being logical and coherent from the games I've skimmed. It might just come down to night shot bingo if the mafia mislynch on a townie without outing either mason. That gives masons a 2/6 chance of consideration during the night and if there is another extremely pro-town power player that they are afraid of who ends up being a normal blue, then neighbors have now narrowed the field down to 2/5 chance of lynching right with a mislynch in play. That's pretty effing brutal. In the bottom line worst case-scenario where mafia don't kill hiding neighbors and have managed to mislynch blues/voyeur, you are looking at a 2/3 chance for the neighbors to find mafia on lylo. Bonerific.

 

[ranmaru]

Thanks bro! I'll look into that and deff contact you if I have any questions. :D

 

[Raziek]

If the neighbors knew each other were confirmed townies, then that's tough on mafia. Starting on D1, they already have a 2/7 chance of hitting mafia. There's no way there wouldn't be only one mafia in a 9-person newbie game, so they have an easier time mapping connections and flips which really helps them with alignment analysis. The fact that Raziek was neighbors with BadWolf was just a disastrous neighborhood combination because Raziek can analyze people and lead town while BadWolf is usually an easy scum mislynch because his points don't come across as being logical and coherent from the games I've skimmed. It might just come down to night shot bingo if the mafia mislynch on a townie without outing either mason. That gives masons a 2/6 chance of consideration during the night and if there is another extremely pro-town power player that they are afraid of who ends up being a normal blue, then neighbors have now narrowed the field down to 2/5 chance of lynching right with a mislynch in play. That's pretty effing brutal. In the bottom line worst case-scenario where mafia don't kill hiding neighbors and have managed to mislynch blues/voyeur, you are looking at a 2/3 chance for the neighbors to find mafia on lylo. Bonerific.

I was neighbors with Rake, JFYI.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

I was neighbors with Rake, JFYI.

Oh wow. That's pretty threatening. Did you guys have immense thread power this game? Because if you did, then you would dominate day time lynches, which would help immensely in avoiding either of you being mislynched. Also why is Rake calling his own reads bad? Is it in context with the fact that his reads should have been more spot on with reduced suspects or was this just a poor performance for him without the slimmed down fos list.

 

[Raziek]

Sort of, but D1 was already set on a Turaz lynch more or less, when I replaced in.

D2 we went with GaGa, whom I read incorrectly and FF/Pawn moved to mislynch.

D3 was my "go ham" day.

 

[Raziek]

Oh, and Rake's play was butts and EVERYONE was scumreading him, so his word didn't help us out too much for thread clout. Had to bail him out D1.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Oh, and Rake's play was butts and EVERYONE was scumreading him, so his word didn't help us out too much for thread clout. Had to bail him out D1.

I'm interested in reading this now. Just to get the complete image of seeing Raziek coming to save Rake on a white horse. Mind you, this is only amusing because I think Rake is a competent player and to see him being a mislynch target on D1 of a newbie game is way too bizarre of an occurrence to just take at face value.