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Newbie 19/Paper Mario: TTYD mafia // Game Over! Who won?
- Thread starter #HBC | Dancer
- Start date
#HBC | Kary
Fiend of Fire
I'm looking at the playerlist and I don't think anyone played badly. I'm trying to write shout-puts but it's ending up as advice. Let me put it this way; try and learn from this game! I'm probably going to try and play along with town a bit more in future 
Ranmaru gets a shout-out though for being a super townbro I could rely on
To be honest, I don't think town deserved this win. Red scum shooting yellow basically gifted the game to town, and yellow scum led town by the nose through most Days. I enjoy setups with two mafia factions but I wonder whether you can actually balance them.
mfw J calls me a newbie still
one does not get oneself lynched
Ranmaru gets a shout-out though for being a super townbro I could rely on
To be honest, I don't think town deserved this win. Red scum shooting yellow basically gifted the game to town, and yellow scum led town by the nose through most Days. I enjoy setups with two mafia factions but I wonder whether you can actually balance them.
mfw J calls me a newbie still
one does not get oneself lynched
Haha you say that now Kary, but there are ways to get oneself lynched just by not learning to put a sock in it and just nod your head.
Totally wouldn't know from personal experience or anything.
Heeey, you aren't a newbie anymore but you signed up in this game as a newbie so I just dropped you in with them. So I guess I would consider you a Rookie because that sounds like a better word.
Totally wouldn't know from personal experience or anything.
Heeey, you aren't a newbie anymore but you signed up in this game as a newbie so I just dropped you in with them. So I guess I would consider you a Rookie because that sounds like a better word.
mvp kevinm
#HBC | Dancer
The nicest of the damned.
MVP: Sworddancer.
I decided to give myself MVP for hosting an awesome game.
I decided to give myself MVP for hosting an awesome game.
Shun Goku Satsu Rake
Oriwa Rake. Kaizo ko ni oriwa naru
- Joined
- May 8, 2012
- Messages
- 3,897
yeah yellow lead town around XD.
And you guys should have caught my `old meta` bomb lol.
I kinda breadcrumbed i was going to be going a new direction
And you guys should have caught my `old meta` bomb lol.
I kinda breadcrumbed i was going to be going a new direction
#HBC | Kary
Fiend of Fire
I'd hoped that on my flip town might've had some direction.
Obviously my approach wasn't the best- Zen had a much better gauge of the town's mood than I did, and was more persuasive. But I don't know what I would've gained by just quieting down, other than possibly preserving my own slot.
Oh, and if it wasn't clear... scum lynched me. It was them.
Obviously my approach wasn't the best- Zen had a much better gauge of the town's mood than I did, and was more persuasive. But I don't know what I would've gained by just quieting down, other than possibly preserving my own slot.
Oh, and if it wasn't clear... scum lynched me. It was them.
#HBC | Kary
Fiend of Fire
I almost forget. Thanks to swords for modding very much satisfied.
very much satisfied.
Ramen King
Smash Cadet
Oh no haha, I was just saying that cause you know. You played pretty well
. I think the lot of ya played pretty nice games even though you didn't always get scum lynches. But I was glad by the effort put into this for the most part.
Vinylic.
Woke?
You know, it still gives me a wtf moment about Paper Mario 2 ever since people discovered that Vivian is a male in the JP Version.
Seriously, what the hell, Nintendo.
Seriously, what the hell, Nintendo.
FullMetalLynch
anomandaris_rake|orboknown
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2012
- Messages
- 1,842
lOL VINYL. , guess how i knew it was you
.
One of the nights i was sitting in the thread, when suddenly you popped in , then like 15 minutes later night phase was over.
(Ori had claimed) so i was like : welp , might as well try to get a yellow win outta this XD
.
One of the nights i was sitting in the thread, when suddenly you popped in , then like 15 minutes later night phase was over.
(Ori had claimed) so i was like : welp , might as well try to get a yellow win outta this XD
#HBC | BadWolf
Crusader of Ponies
Vinylic.
Woke?
#HBC | Kary
Fiend of Fire
@Zen: you say stuff like that, I flip town, you get away with it. Don't know how you do it.
teach me
@BW my point is players make it harder/easier for others to lynch them, but they don't do the lynching. Arguably J/myself got you lynched. I think you were just too defensive, but it's tough when you get set upon by scumJ
@Rake so much for scumhunting, eh?
Don't know how you do it.teach me
@BW my point is players make it harder/easier for others to lynch them, but they don't do the lynching. Arguably J/myself got you lynched. I think you were just too defensive, but it's tough when you get set upon by scumJ
@Rake so much for scumhunting, eh?
FullMetalLynch
anomandaris_rake|orboknown
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2012
- Messages
- 1,842
lol.
Kary you need to make sure to lock in would be my advice , i just managed to squirm out and get away with more mislynches on obvious newb-townies
Kary you need to make sure to lock in would be my advice , i just managed to squirm out and get away with more mislynches on obvious newb-townies
#HBC | Dancer
The nicest of the damned.
Like all of my other games, I didn't really keep up with what was happening, so I don't actually have much to say shout out wise. I might read this game latter to give advice, but I'm a pretty lazy guy so I honestly doubt it. 
Here's what I do have though:
Vinyl.: Vinyl Vinyl Vinyl, what am I going to do with you? You're Day play was alright, as J pointed out, but just from skimming I still think that you need improvment in that aspect. You did a good job just skating by, however, I think that's all that you really did until you pushed Loli near the endgame. The type of play that you exhibited this game might allow you to live early on in a game with more experienced players, but it's bound to bite you near endgame. Still, overall a good performance for a newbie, but don't expect to live long in a more experienced game playing like you did here.
Now, of course your main fault was your Night actions. Vinyl, I know that you've already been told this, but you should have killed the claimed cop. He was your biggest threat this game. As long as he was around, there was always a change of you being caught. Also, even if he didn't catch you in the Night, he would of still cleared others of not being you, neither of which is good.
You REALLY needed to kill the cop Night 5. Even if BarDulL was town, then after a cop investigation of someone who wasn't BarDulL, you would of been caught. Literally the only way your plan could of worked is if you ORI investigated BarDulL Night 5.
Vinyl., it's awkward to say this, especially since we kinda know each other IRL. However, my earnest advice to you is that you need to work on gaining some basic logic skills. I mean no offense by this, as I sense no bad intentions from you, but still, if you're going to improve as a mafia player, you're going to need to gain some common sense first.
Rake: I was impressed by your play this game. You have a fearless scum game, which is a great trait to have that will always help you out as scum. TBH, I thought that you and Zen/BarDulL had this game in the bag, but there was no way you could of predicted Vinyl's kills, which was unfortunate. Good job helping to get Kary lynched, he was definitely yellow scum's biggest threat this game, and he needed to go for you guys to live.
My advice to you has to do with your town play. Yes, even though you were "scum" this game, you still also had to play a town game since you were looking for the red scum as well.
My advice to you is to always look for intention over outcome. Several of your reads were incorrect this game (don't fret this, most newbies as well as experienced players have the same issue, and learning how to reliability "read" people is arguably the hardest part of mafia). I feel like the reason for this was because you only looked into things shallowly. Even if someone does something that that seems "bad," truly question yourself about it. Is it really scummy? Does this player's actions make sense given the context of the current situation? Ect.
This is actually very tired and true advice that I would give to all who play mafia.
Also Rake, one more thing, your claim during Day 2 was indeed scummy, so don't do that again. =p You had no reason to claim at the time, and it really did look like you were simply trying duck out of pressure from Kary.
Kary: I'm also very impressed with you this game. You're reads were near spot on, which is something that a lot of people can't brag about. Not only did you have solid reads, but you actively pursued them, which is the second main part of scumhunting.
It's a shame that you were lynched so earlier, as you were easily town's strongest player.
I don't really know what advice to give you. I don't really think that you should of been lynched, as I found that the way Zen lynched you was only with generic accusations. There's nothing wrong with being aggressive. Your town play was good, and if you played this way as scum as others have said then your scum play is also probably good. Honestly, I think that you're ready to move up to the next level, so if I just HAD to give advice to you, it would be to start playing with more experienced players.
Clover: Good. I can already tell from watching your play this game that you're capable of being very logical. You weren't only just logical, but IIRC then your reads weren't half-bad either. Not only was your logic sound, but you also appeared very obvious townie to me, so tbh I don't know why others were really suspicious of you.
However, if logic is your strength, then your level of commitment is your weakness. Several times this game I saw you state suspicion against others, only to NOT follow up your suspicion with your vote. As a townie, your vote is your most powerful weapon. It allows to apply pressure to scum picks, as well as show your fellow town mates who you believe they should be voting. My advice to you would be for you to not be afraid to really get your vote, and yourself, out their pursuing your scumpicks.
JTB: Thanks for replacing in! Good catch on Zen. Shame that you didn't really make much of an impact on the game. I wish that you did. Oh well.
J: As usual, good play. Sorry that you were scum but hey, at least you had another another scum fraction to go against. Good job leading the lynch on Badwolf Day 1 and looking super mega townie when you actually weren't.
This might sound weird, but my only problem with your play this game was that you were TOO townie. Like, but playing the way you did Day 1, you made yourself a very easy target for the Night kill, which disadvantaged your fraction. Oh well. Until next time.
Zen: Thanks for replacing in!
Man, I have no idea how you get away with some of the stuff that you do, lol. The wagon on Kary, the whole "lets no lynch and direct red scum thing," ect. But you still managed so there must be some method to your madness. Good job getting Kary lynched, and good job in general carrying yellow scum as far as they got.
BarDulL: Thanks for replacing in! You didn't leaving an impact on the game but obviously you couldn't of. So good job doing what you did in the very limited amount of time that you had.
Overrall, I think that I have to agree with Kary here:
I'm either going to give MVP to Rake or no one, I haven't decided yet.
Had town legit won, Kary would be receiving the MVP from me.
Here's what I do have though:
Vinyl.: Vinyl Vinyl Vinyl, what am I going to do with you? You're Day play was alright, as J pointed out, but just from skimming I still think that you need improvment in that aspect. You did a good job just skating by, however, I think that's all that you really did until you pushed Loli near the endgame. The type of play that you exhibited this game might allow you to live early on in a game with more experienced players, but it's bound to bite you near endgame. Still, overall a good performance for a newbie, but don't expect to live long in a more experienced game playing like you did here.
Now, of course your main fault was your Night actions. Vinyl, I know that you've already been told this, but you should have killed the claimed cop. He was your biggest threat this game. As long as he was around, there was always a change of you being caught. Also, even if he didn't catch you in the Night, he would of still cleared others of not being you, neither of which is good.
You REALLY needed to kill the cop Night 5. Even if BarDulL was town, then after a cop investigation of someone who wasn't BarDulL, you would of been caught. Literally the only way your plan could of worked is if you ORI investigated BarDulL Night 5.
Vinyl., it's awkward to say this, especially since we kinda know each other IRL. However, my earnest advice to you is that you need to work on gaining some basic logic skills. I mean no offense by this, as I sense no bad intentions from you, but still, if you're going to improve as a mafia player, you're going to need to gain some common sense first.
Rake: I was impressed by your play this game. You have a fearless scum game, which is a great trait to have that will always help you out as scum. TBH, I thought that you and Zen/BarDulL had this game in the bag, but there was no way you could of predicted Vinyl's kills, which was unfortunate. Good job helping to get Kary lynched, he was definitely yellow scum's biggest threat this game, and he needed to go for you guys to live.
My advice to you has to do with your town play. Yes, even though you were "scum" this game, you still also had to play a town game since you were looking for the red scum as well.
My advice to you is to always look for intention over outcome. Several of your reads were incorrect this game (don't fret this, most newbies as well as experienced players have the same issue, and learning how to reliability "read" people is arguably the hardest part of mafia). I feel like the reason for this was because you only looked into things shallowly. Even if someone does something that that seems "bad," truly question yourself about it. Is it really scummy? Does this player's actions make sense given the context of the current situation? Ect.
This is actually very tired and true advice that I would give to all who play mafia.
Also Rake, one more thing, your claim during Day 2 was indeed scummy, so don't do that again. =p You had no reason to claim at the time, and it really did look like you were simply trying duck out of pressure from Kary.
Kary: I'm also very impressed with you this game. You're reads were near spot on, which is something that a lot of people can't brag about. Not only did you have solid reads, but you actively pursued them, which is the second main part of scumhunting.
It's a shame that you were lynched so earlier, as you were easily town's strongest player.
I don't really know what advice to give you. I don't really think that you should of been lynched, as I found that the way Zen lynched you was only with generic accusations. There's nothing wrong with being aggressive. Your town play was good, and if you played this way as scum as others have said then your scum play is also probably good. Honestly, I think that you're ready to move up to the next level, so if I just HAD to give advice to you, it would be to start playing with more experienced players.
Clover: Good. I can already tell from watching your play this game that you're capable of being very logical. You weren't only just logical, but IIRC then your reads weren't half-bad either. Not only was your logic sound, but you also appeared very obvious townie to me, so tbh I don't know why others were really suspicious of you.
However, if logic is your strength, then your level of commitment is your weakness. Several times this game I saw you state suspicion against others, only to NOT follow up your suspicion with your vote. As a townie, your vote is your most powerful weapon. It allows to apply pressure to scum picks, as well as show your fellow town mates who you believe they should be voting. My advice to you would be for you to not be afraid to really get your vote, and yourself, out their pursuing your scumpicks.
JTB: Thanks for replacing in! Good catch on Zen. Shame that you didn't really make much of an impact on the game. I wish that you did. Oh well.
J: As usual, good play. Sorry that you were scum but hey, at least you had another another scum fraction to go against. Good job leading the lynch on Badwolf Day 1 and looking super mega townie when you actually weren't.
This might sound weird, but my only problem with your play this game was that you were TOO townie. Like, but playing the way you did Day 1, you made yourself a very easy target for the Night kill, which disadvantaged your fraction. Oh well. Until next time.
Zen: Thanks for replacing in!
Man, I have no idea how you get away with some of the stuff that you do, lol. The wagon on Kary, the whole "lets no lynch and direct red scum thing," ect. But you still managed so there must be some method to your madness. Good job getting Kary lynched, and good job in general carrying yellow scum as far as they got.
BarDulL: Thanks for replacing in! You didn't leaving an impact on the game but obviously you couldn't of. So good job doing what you did in the very limited amount of time that you had.
Overrall, I think that I have to agree with Kary here:
I really think this was yellow scum's game, they just got extremely unlucky with Vinyl's shooting.
I'm either going to give MVP to Rake or no one, I haven't decided yet.
Had town legit won, Kary would be receiving the MVP from me.
#HBC | Dancer
The nicest of the damned.
If you didn't get a shootout, then I apologize, but I honestly didn't really read your slot this game. If you would really like some advice from me, then request it and I will ISO you and tell you what I've got.
FullMetalLynch
anomandaris_rake|orboknown
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2012
- Messages
- 1,842
I was actively trying to derail every possible town read by being blatant town to the point of supporting my Kary lynch choice even after he flipped town, I was dead certain it would come back to bite me if i didnèt out it XD.
FullMetalLynch
anomandaris_rake|orboknown
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2012
- Messages
- 1,842
and yeah i was trying to worm out, it helped Kary did not make a full case against me, it took me long enough to derail and misdirect the stuff he did have.
His reads were crazy accurate , which is why when he went aggro , i decided to play hard ball and try to get Kary lynched.
Luckily I was looking more townie at that point than he was
His reads were crazy accurate , which is why when he went aggro , i decided to play hard ball and try to get Kary lynched.
Luckily I was looking more townie at that point than he was
#HBC | Dancer
The nicest of the damned.
Quick topics
Shadow Sirens:
http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/34cQWiuDPz2ag
X-Nauts:
http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/9YegD77ymsHb5
Shadow Sirens:
http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/34cQWiuDPz2ag
X-Nauts:
http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/9YegD77ymsHb5
Orboknown
Smash Hero
FullMetalLynch
anomandaris_rake|orboknown
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2012
- Messages
- 1,842
Yeah , about predicting lynches, i did manage to call J s, but that was an easy one to nail , because Wulf was so aggro focused on J, so when he flipped I knew J was going to be the one to go, plus , like Swords said, he played it too townie and became too much of a threat, kinda is. And thanks for the advice Swords, i know my reads were shallow because it happened in BBM too, i tend to focus in too much and by the time i had stuff to back up my vinyl suspicion, i was dead "." XD.
Good game by all involved, shoutouts to come post haste
Good game by all involved, shoutouts to come post haste
Orboknown
Smash Hero
Oi swords can you give me some advice on what I did like D3 on? That was the point where I could actually play the game.
@rake saying you led the town:You didn't lead me.You just looked town so I worked with you in thread. we need to be scummates one day.
@rake saying you led the town:You didn't lead me.You just looked town so I worked with you in thread. we need to be scummates one day.
FullMetalLynch
anomandaris_rake|orboknown
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2012
- Messages
- 1,842
yeah, i kinda let you be you and let my town appearance work in my favour there, as long as we lynched not yellow i was happy XD.
and yes, one day we need to be scum , i have a feeling we could rock it : )
and yes, one day we need to be scum , i have a feeling we could rock it : )
#HBC | Dancer
The nicest of the damned.
Sure, but I'm a little preoccupied right now. I'll get back to you soon though.
Vinylic.
Woke?
Oh my god, lol. I really was going to win this after all if I didn't screw myself up, wasn't I?
#HBC | Kary
Fiend of Fire
oh lol the sirens QT
Kary is PR!
Kary is red scum!
lol oh lol
Kary is PR!
Kary is red scum!
lol oh lol
FullMetalLynch
anomandaris_rake|orboknown
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2012
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- 1,842
BadWolf:
How scared were you when I accidentally guessed your alignment pre-game. I have no idea how that worked but after your flip i could not stop chuckling about me nailing that.
My advice would be try not to lash out so much and play more to the style of how you did when we teamed, i think in that you werent pressured like you were in this, so that may have been why. Also: always check what your saying before you post !. GG
Vinyl.: Nice game man, i thought your weirdness was a PR, turned out to be a NK XD. The kills you could argue about , but you did a nice job getting rid of the stronger townies like Ran early, especially after they honed in on your slot, something i missed thinking about till after i died XD.
VitaminC and ORI_bro: Good games by both, they played their role extremely well, the early claim was a bit crazy by Ori, but it worked out nicely : ). Too bad for the not guilty results or you might have been able to stop the Kary and Benjy trains. Also good job at trying to keep me and zen in order, especially with stuff like zens JTB case. GG
Orboknown: Knew you were town. Very good town game, too bad you couldnt have been around more , or it probably would have gone different. Luckily i stayed looking townie enough to have your eyes semi turned away as it were. GG
mightbebenjamin: Good showing for a newbie, i know its tough to be confident in your reads, but just try to do that would be my advice and follow the same advice Swords gave me. You did a good job of looking town until the pressure was on, try not to take pressure personally, its just a facet of the game. GG
Clover: Basically exactly what Swords said. Nice job having me as scum btw, when i saw that i thought : dang, what did i do ! , would have been interesting to see you around farther into the game, you reacted well under all the pressure on you. GG
Lolilovesrain: Next time try to get your own reads and not only follow other people, use your brain and never self vote. GG
Kary: Good town game, next time tunnel me to death if you have me as scum. You have to follow through, or else scum may slip through your fingers. Boss reads btw. GG
Hipster Sister Ramen King BarDull: So many replacements in this slot and all played extremely well, especially Hipster bussing me , Zen white knighting me and Bardull managing to get Loli mislynch , if only Vinly had killed Ori XD. GG
J : Nice being on a team with you J, you ate red scum alive D1 and if you hadnt been killed, it might have gone different, hope to be paired up again. GG. I tried to base my reads off yours, but i couldnt exactly be too accurate at catching red scum now could I. XD
Ran : Good town game Ran, you were one of the early ones to be on me and it would have been interesting to see you and Kary team up against me for town. Too bad about that Clover tunnel, but i could see where you were coming from on your side on most points, but Clover was too town for me , which is why i called your case pressure.
Homeslice JTB: For homeslice: Good process and yes, i was trying to piant you as evil and must die, i only decided to 180 after i saw your defence, all you need to do is stick to your guns IMo, i deliberately 180 d because i was trying to move your suspicion. GG
JTB: You did a good job replacing in and you handled Zens wishy case on you well. Would have been interesting to see more from you GG.
How scared were you when I accidentally guessed your alignment pre-game. I have no idea how that worked but after your flip i could not stop chuckling about me nailing that.
My advice would be try not to lash out so much and play more to the style of how you did when we teamed, i think in that you werent pressured like you were in this, so that may have been why. Also: always check what your saying before you post !. GG
Vinyl.: Nice game man, i thought your weirdness was a PR, turned out to be a NK XD. The kills you could argue about , but you did a nice job getting rid of the stronger townies like Ran early, especially after they honed in on your slot, something i missed thinking about till after i died XD.
VitaminC and ORI_bro: Good games by both, they played their role extremely well, the early claim was a bit crazy by Ori, but it worked out nicely : ). Too bad for the not guilty results or you might have been able to stop the Kary and Benjy trains. Also good job at trying to keep me and zen in order, especially with stuff like zens JTB case. GG
Orboknown: Knew you were town. Very good town game, too bad you couldnt have been around more , or it probably would have gone different. Luckily i stayed looking townie enough to have your eyes semi turned away as it were. GG
mightbebenjamin: Good showing for a newbie, i know its tough to be confident in your reads, but just try to do that would be my advice and follow the same advice Swords gave me
. You did a good job of looking town until the pressure was on, try not to take pressure personally, its just a facet of the game. GGClover: Basically exactly what Swords said. Nice job having me as scum btw, when i saw that i thought : dang, what did i do ! , would have been interesting to see you around farther into the game, you reacted well under all the pressure on you. GG
Lolilovesrain: Next time try to get your own reads and not only follow other people, use your brain and never self vote. GG
Kary: Good town game, next time tunnel me to death if you have me as scum. You have to follow through, or else scum may slip through your fingers. Boss reads btw. GG
Hipster Sister Ramen King BarDull: So many replacements in this slot and all played extremely well, especially Hipster bussing me , Zen white knighting me and Bardull managing to get Loli mislynch , if only Vinly had killed Ori XD. GG
J : Nice being on a team with you J, you ate red scum alive D1 and if you hadnt been killed, it might have gone different, hope to be paired up again. GG. I tried to base my reads off yours, but i couldnt exactly be too accurate at catching red scum now could I. XD
Ran : Good town game Ran, you were one of the early ones to be on me and it would have been interesting to see you and Kary team up against me for town. Too bad about that Clover tunnel, but i could see where you were coming from on your side on most points, but Clover was too town for me , which is why i called your case pressure.
Homeslice JTB: For homeslice: Good process and yes, i was trying to piant you as evil and must die, i only decided to 180 after i saw your defence, all you need to do is stick to your guns IMo, i deliberately 180 d because i was trying to move your suspicion. GG
JTB: You did a good job replacing in and you handled Zens wishy case on you well. Would have been interesting to see more from you GG.
#HBC | Kary
Fiend of Fire
yeah @Rake:
asking questions does NOT make you town
I could tell you were trying to paint me as scum, which is scummy, and your claim was wack; how you got away with that stuff I have no idea.
Given that yellow scum seemed so town they all got shot, I'm kinda against MvP Rake, no offence bro. If you'd swung a Vinyl lynch over Benji or something then yeah probably. I mean, i'm a bit biased because you were obvscum but anyway.
asking questions does NOT make you town
I could tell you were trying to paint me as scum, which is scummy, and your claim was wack; how you got away with that stuff I have no idea.
Given that yellow scum seemed so town they all got shot, I'm kinda against MvP Rake, no offence bro. If you'd swung a Vinyl lynch over Benji or something then yeah probably. I mean, i'm a bit biased because you were obvscum but anyway.
Orboknown
Smash Hero
Kary rake was in no way obvscum.
Vinylic.
Woke?
You've been asking me questions because you were onto me, and that was good.
But really, I don't think it's a good idea when you keep asking me if I'm town so many times.
FullMetalLynch
anomandaris_rake|orboknown
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2012
- Messages
- 1,842
updated shoutouts above.
I asked questions better than before too, in my other newbie i tried to throw questions out to look like i was seeing all the angles, here i used questions like a barrier i guess
I asked questions better than before too
, in my other newbie i tried to throw questions out to look like i was seeing all the angles, here i used questions like a barrier i guess
#HBC | Kary
Fiend of Fire
FullMetalLynch
anomandaris_rake|orboknown
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2012
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sad part is i actually did some of pre-game before reading my pm XD