Newbie 19/Paper Mario: TTYD mafia // Game Over! Who won?

[ranmaru]

Look at little closer at Clover, that might help.

Now you bring up something interesting.

Them knowing each other, is actually a double-edged sword. Not only can they cover for each other, making it harder for you to read, it'll also make it easier for them to find scum within their own circle. So, your point is null. Now here is an example of someone I think found scum, within their own circle: Homeslice. But before you can trust her reads, you'll have to read her first.

You state that since they all know each other, you have a hard time seeing who is actually being legit with their read. The way you can be sure that their read is reliable, is reading them as null or town. You always have to read people, to see if their words are worth listening to. You shouldn't just blindly listen to someone describing the other's meta, you have to see if that person is being legit or just saying that to frame the other person.

They are still going to have either a town pm or mafia pm, so they will act accordingly. For example, Benji stated that Lolipop would stay out of the spotlight and let others duke it out. So, I wouldn't just take his word for it, I'd read him first and ask him to go into it a little more to see if it makes sense. I think he changed what he said though, so I'll go into it in a bit.

Now then, people are going to know each other. Eventually, they'll become bros. Example, KevinM and Marshy. Marshy was accused of something, and him and Kev were accused of being both scum. They never pushed for each other. That was weird, and lead to Marshy's lynch. He flipped town, and Kev rode to victory. xD

So, you are going to see that in the future.

TL;DR:

Just focus on people's actions in game, regardless of meta. Don't focus too hard on talk within the circle about another's meta. Just treat them all like people you have not played with, and take the 'meta' as null.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14573863&postcount=594
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14573870&postcount=596
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14573878&postcount=598
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14573887&postcount=601

Read those in order. I'm taking a step back from myself for just a second even if it's "bad play" . In the first link I mentioned how I would've probably looked into HomeSlice if she were scum. 2nc link J mentions I was "on to something". 3rd link is me trying to understand it 4th link is J leading me towards Homeslice..

BadWolf dies turns out to be scum.
J is lynched at night and turns out to be yellow scum.

The only thing I can conclude from this is either Homeslice killed him because he was leaning towards her which I don't think would have been a good idea. Or someone purposely killed off J in order to frame HomeSlice not realizing he was mafia yellow scum.

Ran, I think we can conclude at least for the moment that Loli's responses were worth the vote pressure.

I do not particularly agree with the conclusion, but I have a similar one : Up to J's flip, her and ran were arguably the power players, pushing their own individual wagons. Powerful wagons to boot, with pretty decent cases between them.

So lets assume J flips town and that Red mafia was assuming a J town flip, it makes logical sense : Take out one of "towns" lead forces for hunting scum and give yourself room to operate, you have just seen J pretty much run Badwulf into the ground, so what do you do ? You take out J. Plus, with 2 mafia factions , it helps one to hunt the other so , being red mafia, you know she cannt be with you, so regardless of the flip, J is going against your win-con. So taking this into account, I feel it will be worthwhile to re-read J, because it's obvious that J would play to wincon and what better way then to get Red mafia out of the way ? (Logicically speaking, with no one to NK the other mafia , it would come down to town mis-lynches and numbers to create a yellow mafia win-con.

Not to mention in the very beginning Badwulf stated he'd have his eyes on J, so it's entirely possible that the Red mafia had J down, from the very beginning and that J's power play in getting Badwulf lynched pushed Wulf's partner to ride the J train as it were.

So taking this all into account there are some things I will be looking out for:

1) Players attempting to ride J's reads (Yellow mafia slips )
2) Players who attempted to take J down by offering up a "case " against J (Wulf and his partner, assuming they planned anything ) trying to take J out without the need for a NK
3) The players who jumped on the Badwulf case with little supporting evidence of their own (buddying J and getting some town recognition, should J be right.)

Also Rake. Tell me why you are going Loli over Clover? Like what makes her a priority. Because to me they are both equally scummy.

It was mainly the content issues for me, up to Loli of the last few pages , she hadn't been doing all too much (at least imo ). And lack of activity was something that , at least for me, could have feasibly been a newbie scum tell, stay under the radar, post bits and pieces here and there , get on a wagon or two and coast into endgame as it were.

Plus it could be the case that Loli and Clover could be yellow scum together. Taking this possibility into account (and seeing as Clover has been responding to Ran's case), it seemed like a prudent way to see if Loli would slip up somewhere. No pressure had been applied to Loli that I can recall, so why not test the waters a little ?

As of my latest read of Loli's new content, I can reasonably state this lead has run it's course, for the time being.

Hey guys, good flips, huh?

Rake really needs to tell me why he didn't read his role PM straight away, and whether this had anything to do with editing his confirmation post. Also, what on earth was your push on Homeslice all about?

Definitely a good day for town when we get 2 for 1 scum deal.

Why I didn't read it :

In every single game up to this point, I have missed RVS, in addition to this, I noticed something wrt my previous games: When I read my pm's in the other games it was as a player in this game stated (as I recall). It was like a weight was on me to play a certain way. In breaking bad mafia, I came in very headstrong and opinionated , very much like a newb townie would , trying to gain up some "town bros" as it may be.

In the last game I was in it was much the same, I came in trying to do too much, got my reads mixed, couldn't keep my brain straight as it were. So I made a decision: Next game would go at it blind for a time , just to see what happened.

So, not wanting to drag the game on, I posted a confirmation (without knowing my role). Once I read it, i edited my posts because I then understood my role.

Vitamin, since you are here, I'd like for you to go into who you think is scum with J.

@Kary: Clover, Rake, Benji, Hipster.

Now can you go into you liking Clover a little more?

Ran: wrt to Hipster and her last case: This is more of the posts I wanted to see from this player base. And honestly this is a track I think we should explore a little.

But, Clovers lurking is starting to look scummier the more times it happens.

I would be willing to see Clover go toDay but I still want ran to put his case up again for me and let me make one of my own should his spark me to. As long as we explore this VC angle, i intend to be on this angle and one other one I would like to hear Ran and Orbo's opinion on:

Three headed mafia:

Power J for the head
Benji , a new player, who knows J and can learn under him
Clover

Now Ran, i know you stated that Badwulfs flip pushed the Clover thing for you, but consider this : J has Badwulf on the ropes and tells one of her scum mates to get in on it. Benji was already in on what amounts to no reason, and now that means Clover cannot board the Wulf train to get in on a lynch, even if Clover makes a case against Badwulf , it would only make your case more true, in the sense that Clover would see your willingness to be on the Wulf train and would be getting in on that lynch to appeal to you and hope to gain some town points out of it.

I think this could be a possible reason for Clovers lack of voting: she cannot go to the Wulf , she didn't (as I recall ) have any real case on anyone else for scum to put a vote on, so Clover chooses not to vote and avoid the situation.

Now, until the things above have been read and considered, I will be witholding my vote and re-reading J.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

FOS : Clover, for lurking again as I post this

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

You know what, Clover just left again with no post, this is either terrible town play or just flat out scum avoidance.

And i just noticed Ran linked his case against Clover.

I will be reading that. After that I think its time for my own take on it.

VOTE: Clover

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

And then Clover lurked again and left again....

Hipster I see you viewing. I will have my thoughts up post haste, would you mind looking them over and give an opinion ?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

It's kinda like J is trying to divide us already...

Vote: J

Kinda looks like distancing already....

[

@Rake - I'd probably hafta agree with Kary's point there, "why?" is usually more important than "what?" Even seemingly insignificant posts can be interpreted in certain ways. If somebody's accusing lotsa people, they could be a townie looking for leads or someone who's scum trying to go unnoticed by spreading accusations. The part that's difficult is determining which way to see things, and, like I said, now is a bit early to have much certainty. If a gambit is involved and the player lies, yes, you probably should still give some thought to the action. If someone is scum and playing well enough, they could use a complex gambit to convince everyone that they're town. It's probably unlikely enough that you'd normally never have to worry about that, but, main point, at least take some notice when someone lies.

Actually , this is where I find myself strongly disagreeing with Clover, scum use gambits everywhere , everyway possible, look at my play in the last Newbie game, I went and used a smokescreen gambit to gain extra nights for my partner, was it complicated ? Not necessarily but from a town perspective it would be, I literally put town between a rock an a hard place : Either they believe Hipster's smoke screen assertion (her posting style was bothering people ) and they just hope that it ends up being a gambit. Or they bite on my hard-buss smoke screen (which they did) and lynch Hipster.

The only part I agree with is the last bit, noticing lies and scum slips.

@Rake- It's hard to work with words. Online, you can't hear the tone behind what someone is saying, so it's just up to you to determine for yourself whether or not someone is being earnest. Ran was curious and seems to be generally interested in progressing the game, so I felt that a response was deserved. I appreciate openness in certain scenarios. Not always the best option for everyone, but it's always there for those who wanna take advantage of it.

Here I find myself asking a question : Who would not want the advance the game ?

Both scum and town have win con and dragging out a game would make it harder on mafia I would assume, considering that there would be more time for them to slip up.

Plus I do not believe Clovers explanation:

Ran was curious and seems to be generally interested in progressing the game, so I felt that a response was deserved

This makes it seem like there is some sort of hidden double standard here, as if Clover has a scale by which Clover judges an question as worth answering or not an answer will be given.

And then this:

I appreciate openness in certain scenarios

This is just flat scummy IMO. In certain scenarios , townies should be open in EVERY scenario. Townies don't have anything to worry about by openly stating their opinion. Only scum would hide what they are doing, because they HAVE to hide it, because revealing it would reveal their scum intentions.

@Ran - Yeah, I do see how that'd be a logical way to look at things. My apologies for responding so defensively at the sight of my name. Like I said in #142, BadWolf seemed to be going on a bit much in the "randomness" phase for a boost in the likability department. Slightly suspicious, I think. Having my doubts with Rake as well. I feel like his initial accusations were more to divert attention than to gain fruitful leads, and his last statement in #105 seems odd. Wouldn't in-game alliances like that be inherently anti-town? So far, slightly leaning town towards Loli, I haven't seen any glaring scum tells. Everything, to me, points towards simple unfamiliarity with the game.

Okay, for real, time for a break. xD

You'll notice who my initial accusations fell to: Badwulf and Clover.
Now i will not claim this was by design, 100% total luck there.

Now I dropped off Badwulf, but if you look back at my "initial accusations " it took me significant prodding and saying things like "scum avoidance level" to get Badwulf to even address what I was saying, Now i'm not going to say he wasn't going to post anyway, I just find it strange that his responses came directly after I posted that way.

Considering what is now occurring , I could see a situation where Badwulf and Clover were scum-buddies, and my initial stuff scared them. Thus the issue.

Plus, As i recall , Ran was the first one to take issue with those posts. And then Clover. If this is indeed how it occurred and how Ran later put a read on me as null-scum, Clover may have chosen to remain "looking at me"( I believe Clover had me as his first lynch choice D1 still, with just the two posts I had not only already a dressed, but which, if I recall correctly, were brought up by ran.) **(If I am wrong here correct me)**. because Clover saw the opportunity to jump aboard Ran's case on me , were he to make one.

 

[HipsterSister]

Mod:I'm voting Vitamin C right now.

Rake: I've read Clover's posts and cases against him and I still don't entirely know what to think. I his early posts didn't seem extremely scummy to me, but I don't like his lurking. He should definitely post something if he's reading this because it makes me doubt my earlier town read on him and I want to see more from him.

Clover: Who are your top scum picks and why? Who do you think is red or yellow based on connections with Badwolf or J?

Unvote

You're an interesting character, Kary. And this conversation gotten me absolutely nothing pertaining to the game.

...Town bros?

The conversation has gotten you nothing, but you're willing to be town bros with Kary? I'd say that it's gotten you a town read, and that's definitely something.
Also, are you going to say anything about my post about you earlier? I'd like to know why you said that you had a scum read on Badwolf when there's no evidence of you ever defending this.

 

[ranmaru]

Since you are here:

Seems to me as if he's unvoting to play it safe and slow down a lynch of his partner. He never said why he thought Badwolf was scum in any of his posts, but continues to act as if his vote is justified.

Vote: Vitamin C

Why would Badwolf care if people were going to look into Ben? Just a thought.

It's possible. Yet, keep in mind VitaminC doesn't do well with reasoning. Last newb game, he voted me 'as a reaction test', and didn't have a reason to keep his vote on me. Yet, he was town. So I'd take this as a null. It does merit him attention from the cops.

Now, on Benji. From that statement, you wouldn't look into Benji, because Wolfy could have just setting him up by asking that, since Wolf knew he was going down.

Yet, I still feel it's possible Benji can be scum, yet I'd take Wolfies statement as null.

I'd like your thoughts on Clover, and for you to expand on your Rake Scum read.

 

[ranmaru]

Also Hipster, how would you feel about being Copped tonite?

 

[ranmaru]

OH OH OH, please talk to me about Loli.

You have played with her before, right? What do you think of her scumhunting method of going by 'feeling'? Is this the usual for her?

 

[Clover]

First off, time to express my emotions with: .__________. I've had this topic up on my phone, and apparently it's making me look like I keep viewing this for extended periods of time when I'm not. I checked up last night and the last post I saw up was around #667ish, and I figured I'd respond today, and, quite a bit going on until now that I'm just getting caught up with, but, here I am.

@Ran -

Seeing as how J flipped Yellow scum, I think that may incriminate Clover even more.

No matter what J's opinion on me before he flipped, I feel like you'd find a way to use that against me.

Clover I would also like for you to vote someone today, and tell me:

Who you think may be associated with Badwolf, and J.

I believe I shall. Vote: Benji Circular posting, early on Wolfy wagon for lack of reasons, avoiding questions, unnecessary emphatic backing of Homeslice's playstyle. And, I haven't seen much from him since in terms of defense. But, Homeslice seems to be a plausible candidate, connected either way.

@Loli -

Ah. understandable. The problem is with the way I play I kind of go on how I'm feeling.

Your vote kinda confuses me, then. You've stated that you don't feel anything towards my posts, but you still side with Ran. It seems like he's sort of leading you on as a result of his experience. Do you see where I'm coming from?

@Rake -

I think this could be a possible reason for Clovers lack of voting: she cannot go to the Wulf

I stated that I'd join on to the Wolfy vote, but, he was at L-1 at the time and I felt that it was a good idea to give him a chance to respond first before any hammering.

Kinda looks like distancing already....

I already stated in Ran's case against me that it was RVS.

Actually , this is where I find myself strongly disagreeing with Clover, scum use gambits everywhere , everyway possible

Uhh, not always. For example, scum wouldn't make a simple PR claim early on that could be CC'd. Gambits depends on the context of the game and timing.

Here I find myself asking a question : Who would not want the advance the game?

The whole "randomness" stuff going on pretty early, which did produce some insight, wasn't quite doing as much to advance the game as actual questioning.

This makes it seem like there is some sort of hidden double standard here, as if Clover has a scale by which Clover judges an question as worth answering or not an answer will be given.

I feel like I've been answering any questions to the best of my ability. But, you would admit that some questions are more useful than others, yes?

This is just flat scummy IMO. In certain scenarios , townies should be open in EVERY scenario. Townies don't have anything to worry about by openly stating their opinion. Only scum would hide what they are doing, because they HAVE to hide it, because revealing it would reveal their scum intentions.

I meant in context of the game in general. For example, you would not want a Cop claim on Day 1. There are necessary situations where town has to keep info until it's useful. As for me, like I said, open.

I believe Clover had me as his first lynch choice D1 still

My feelings toward you being scum tapered off late into Day 1, I just couldn't back it up with anything besides pregame stuff, which I wouldn't feel confident enough to go by.

@Hipster -

Who are your top scum picks and why? Who do you think is red or yellow based on connections with Badwolf or J?

Benji, circular posting, early on Wolfy wagon for lack of reasons, avoiding questions, unnecessary emphatic backing of Homeslice's playstyle. I would guess yellow.
Homeslice, aside from wishy-washyness, flipped opinion on Wolfy from "towny" to a decent case against as possibly bussing. Haven't seen much from her lately, though. Would also guess yellow, based on connections with each.

And, time for some sleep. Should be able to be more active later today. My apologies for my phone issues. n_n

 

[#HBC | Kary]

For crying out loud, can you please stop tunneling Clover; he's barely had a chance to do anything this game because since before the first Day even started he's been questioned and pressured and constantly on the defensive.
How am I supposed to be able to tell whether someone is pro-town in their intent when all they have time for is answering more questions that only boil down to 'I don't like this one thing you said'.

Anyways

 

[ranmaru]

KARYYYY

Remember Garg?

Anyways.

Vote: Homeslice

Now Join me.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

@Ran
Yes I do. That was a different game.
Would rather have a solid read on Clover than just trust you on this, Ran.

I thought you didn't have any other scumpicks?

 

[ranmaru]

I'm currently re-evaluating Homeslice. (Mostly because it's been a bit quiet, and looking at her vote on Badwolf)

And I understand.

What is your opinion on Homeslice?

 

[ranmaru]

Like I said, I'm trying to find yellow scum.

 

[ranmaru]

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFxYaSpVMvI&list=FLsA9LEXqfMxLgaFcrxLjuFA&feature=mh_lolz

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Now then, Kary. Yesterday you had a scumread on Rake, right? Can you elaborate further on this?

I had a scum lean on Rake, start of Day 1, from his actions in the pre-game.
Apparently he hadn't read his role PM, making my observations null.
I'm going to finish this line of questioning before i bring up anything else.

In every single game up to this point, I have missed RVS, in addition to this, I noticed something wrt my previous games: When I read my pm's in the other games it was as a player in this game stated (as I recall). It was like a weight was on me to play a certain way. In breaking bad mafia, I came in very headstrong and opinionated , very much like a newb townie would , trying to gain up some "town bros" as it may be.

In the last game I was in it was much the same, I came in trying to do too much, got my reads mixed, couldn't keep my brain straight as it were. So I made a decision: Next game would go at it blind for a time , just to see what happened.

So, not wanting to drag the game on, I posted a confirmation (without knowing my role). Once I read it, i edited my posts because I then understood my role.

Right. I don't have a problem with you not reading your PM, exactly. But on the other hand, it doesn't help town AT ALL. You're basically trying to make your life easier at the expense of actually hindering other people who are trying to read you. You're purposefully giving off unreliable tells, and I can't see much pro-town intent in wanting to do that.
Now, yeah I can appreciate it's a burden to play to your role... but that's the game.

So, I can believe you didn't read your role pm, w/e.

The part I am really mad about is that you apparently edited your confirmation post AFTER you read you role PM:

Totally did. Look at my confirmation . I edited it. I can even tell you what it said before I edited it : Confirming to be a fat Italian Plumber and talk for RVS stage in obvious Italian manner.

I edited it after I actually read my pm to what it is now.

Except when I asked you at what point you read your role PM, you linked me to your #155.

Aight let's clear this up

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14566425&postcount=155

Is when I actually read the pm

I wouldn`t edit it unless I actually knew what I was right , that;s why I had it previously as `Confirming`instead of confirmed.

BUT WHAT'S THIS? Your #155 was posted:

06-12-2012, 03:54 PM

Your confirmation post (#7) was edited:

Last edited by Anomandaris_Rake; 06-11-2012 at 09:11 PM.

Which shows you clearly edited your confirmation only minutes after posting it.

So, barring some sort of HUGE miscommunication on your part, you're lying about this. Which suggests to me you had read your role pm before the game started, and were actually lying about this as well.

So, explain this to me?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Ok with Homeslice today. Got town vibes off of her yesterday; too relaxed to be scum IMO.

 

[ranmaru]

Can you look at her Badwolf for me, and tell me what you think about that, seeing as how Badwolf flipped scum?

 

[ranmaru]

She totally backstabbed me and left my Clover wagon ;_;

I felt it was odd. She has been hopping her vote, so I don't think that's scummotivated, it's just that she had so much certaintenty when voting Badwolf. That's really the only problem I have.

 

[ranmaru]

LOL

EBWOP: *Can you look at her badwolf vote for me

 

[ranmaru]

Also, Kary. I think it's possible to not have received a role pm and still have been posting. (I didn't confirm until I green texted)

But if you caught him in a lie, then that's a diff story

 

[#HBC | Kary]

The gist is Ran, Rake was explaining the difference between his pre-game and Day 1 by having not read his role PM. Except what he's said about when he read his PM doesn't add up. Other stuff like him wanting to hear my case on him also makes very little sense if he knows anything I got on him pre-game would just be wrong.
Either he's trying to be clever as town and has just screwed up his explanation (i.e. like a gambit gone wrong), or he's scum. To be honest, he smells pretty scummy to me. I'll pull together some points as evidence in a little bit.

As to Homeslice's vote on Badwolf, I'm fine with it. Think it's probably a null tell. Don't think there was that much certainty to it, just more confidence than your typical RVS/early game vote.

 

[VitaminC]

A few things I noticed when rereading during night phase...

Vitamin's seemingly RVS vote on Badwolf.
It wasn't entirely RVS, but sure, whatever.

Says he looked scummy early on, but he never elaborated on this. Ever. He's also concerned about Badwolf's lynch.
I didn't elaborate because I couldn't. I would've liked to put something together, but in case you didn't notice, I was pretty absent on D1, due to outside circumstances. I was concerned because my vote was going to kill someone I wasn't prepared to kill. Is that a problem?

Seems to me as if he's unvoting to play it safe and slow down a lynch of his partner. He never said why he thought Badwolf was scum in any of his posts, but continues to act as if his vote is justified.
Alright, I already said I couldn't. My reasoning at the time of my vote was his defensiveness towards J and his hostility overall.
Also, ಠ_ಠ at the underlined. Would you like to point out what that means and where you see me doing it?

As far as I can see, your reasons don't have any merit to them. This is even more evident when you look at the fact that no one else has agreed with you or expanded on your case. I suppose you're doing this for pressure or information, but I really can't understand where this "case" you've made proves I'm scum.

 

[Homeslice2332]

AH! I'm really sorry!! I htought that the night stage was going on until the 26, so I wasn't gonna check until the 26, except that my friend told me that I was missing a lot (also work had me tied along with some major house cleaning). But for right now, I'll be offline because I've got to get ready for work at 10.
RANDOM NOTE: I wa scertain on Badwolf because he was so quick to join the Homeslice Wagon that I felt like he was trying to get town points or something. Also he was being very contradictory about me (give me leeaway, then 'she's getting scummier'). I found that to me very scummy.
Have a great day!

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

@Ran: Sorry, missed that.

Vote Count

2. Vinyl.
3. VitaminC (1) - Hipster Sister
4. Orboknown
5. Rake
6. mightbebenjamin
7. Clover (3) - Lolilovesrain, Vinyl., Rake
8.Lolilovesrain
9. Kary
10. Hipster Sister
12. Ranmaru
13. Homeslice (1) - Ranmaru

Not voting: Orboknown, mightbebenjamin, Clover, Homeslice, VitaminC, Kary

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

 

[Vinylic.]

Yo, @Vinyl, what's your opinion on VitaminC's latest posts? More townie or scummy?

Town. He was asking question to you on what you're trying to do.

I have a null read on Vinyl. I should probably re-read him. Things like his initial reluctance to buddy with me are null, sadly. His reads are pretty generic. I'm not so much trying to buddy him as get into his head. I don't think I'm going to earn his trust the way I'm going about it.
Why Vinyl? Because I don't think he does much on his own initiative, because no-one else was pushing him, because I think he's relatively easy for me to read.

It doesn't give any effect if I'm scum or not. And the way you keep asking me questions to get in my head is not working. But still, the way you're pushing me is good.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

And the way you keep asking me questions to get in my head is not working. But still, the way you're pushing me is good.

How do you know it's not working?

Vote: Vinyl.

 

[Vinylic.]

 

[#HBC | Kary]

ROFL

 

[#HBC | Kary]

oh yeah, scumhunting.
'bout that

Vinyl, as I recall you had Rake and J as town reads, right? With J flipping scum, are you going to be questioning your town read on Rake? How confident are you in your reads?

 

[Vinylic.]

No, not on rake, but on you as of this moment. I don't like how you play, so we're going dirt on dirt.

Why do you say you're not confident on voting clover?

 

[Vinylic.]

Ran, why your vote change when you looked towards making a wagon on clover?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Right enough. It's real easy to ask questions.

I'm not feeling Clover as that scummy right now.
As I said, J's flip made me feel better about Clover being town.
Aside from being reluctant to get involved at the start of the game, and claiming VT (which I still don't know exactly what the purpose was, but w/e) I'm not seeing what he's done that might be scummy.
I'm a bit concerned that he's an easy target right now, and that people I think are scummy are just going to jump on him. So yeah, I want less pressure on Clover so that I can see him scumhunting, rather than being defensive.
Oh, and I'm not certain, but Ran vs. Clover reads most like town vs. town to me. I will admit it was a bit of a blur. Ran's case on Clover early on was good scumhunting, but I don't think it was enough to lynch someone off, and I thought Clover responded well.
Does that clear it up?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

& What did you think was particularly scummy about Clover? Can you pick out 1-2 things for me? Ta.

 

[Vinylic.]

She/he's lurking and has not responded.

That's one thing.

 

[Vinylic.]

Unvote

You know, I need to think clear about this.
I would idiotically say that you're not voting clover because both of you are either yellow scum, but no.

 

[Vinylic.]

@all

Which player would you agree on one's case the most?

Ran? Rake? Etc?

 

[Clover]

@Mod - You missed my Benji vote!


@Kary -

For crying out loud, can you please stop tunneling Clover; he's barely had a chance to do anything this game because since before the first Day even started he's been questioned and pressured and constantly on the defensive.

Amen. And, Kary, what is your current opinion on Benji? Also, thoughts on Orbo?

@Homeslice -

I wa scertain on Badwolf because he was so quick to join the Homeslice Wagon that I felt like he was trying to get town points or something.

You had stated that you considered Badwolf "towny" at one point, but after the votes started coming in for him, your opinions immediately drastically reversed, and you joined that wagon, possibly for the benefits of "town points or something." Your actions don't seem to me to be that different from Wolfy's.

@Vinyl -

She/he's lurking and has not responded.

I did respond, and I explained that in #731.

No, not on rake, but on you as of this moment. I don't like how you play, so we're going dirt on dirt.

Kary's playstyle has seemed a bit, err, unconventional at points, but, what specifically about it besides the continued attempts at buddying are leading to your doubts?