New Survival Mechanic In Smash 4 - "Vectoring"

[TTTTTsd]

It's alright we all make mistakes. IF you look back in the thread, someone found a VI only combo with Link's bombs!

The only combo I've heard it cutting out is Shiek FTilt strings at around 30% meaning she has to jump up and chase a bit earlier(why not Fair cause it's GODDDDLIKE).

Mario's stuff is pretty set in stone, you could probably shorten the ZeRo combo and get more mileage out of the Uair due to the low KB on Utilt.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

Essentially, it's a more advanced DI. It sounds easy to do also. I'm going to start testing this out on the demo and see. But I'm happy to see some new, original advanced techniques come to this game. It will be fun for new players and existing pro smashers to learn IMO.

 

[Gidy]

It's alright we all make mistakes. IF you look back in the thread, someone found a VI only combo with Link's bombs!

The only combo I've heard it cutting out is Shiek FTilt strings at around 30% meaning she has to jump up and chase a bit earlier(why not Fair cause it's GODDDDLIKE).

Mario's stuff is pretty set in stone, you could probably shorten the ZeRo combo and get more mileage out of the Uair due to the low KB on Utilt.

If this is the case for all combo's, them having diversity, then my opinion on VI may change when it comes to combos. I still think VI to survive is broke.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If this is the case for all combo's, them having diversity, then my opinion on VI may change when it comes to combos. I still think VI to survive is broke.

Survival wise yeah, it's a bit weird. Combo-wise it's way too young to really thoroughly judge, but as far as survival goes, I like its emphasis on offstage but I think that makes it really bad for other characters. Double edged swords suck : (

 

[Daftatt]

Survival DI will finally work how every 10 year old thought it worked to begin with. Don't want to go offstage? Hold the control stick pointed towards the stage when you get hit.

To give input on the whole ruiner of combos debate: yeah, a lot of combos that would have worked without the optimal DI will now whiff since the opponent being hit is too far away for a followup due to the fact that they held away. The ability to make yourself fly farther is purely negative for combos and the overall speed of the game. But it's not like we have done anything but scratch the surface for the meta to begin with, so I hold all judgement on how smash 4 playstyle trends will turn out until there are actually a statistically significant amount of people playing the game for us to even have trends.

I fail to see how it even matters if smash 4 is fast or well suited for competitive play. Project M already fills that need, and we also have melee, and in all seriousness if you play either of those two games smash 4 will never compare when it comes to the competitive scene regardless of how the meta develops; we all know that's not the game sakurai would want to make. Smash 4 is what it is, and maybe we should all WAIT, for oh I don't know it's RELEASE to figure out exactly what that is before we talk about why it's bad/wrong/good/uncompetitive.

Props to strongbad though for the explanation, also my 8 year old self thinks the name "Vectoring" is AWESOME. The adult me doesn't want to hurt strongbad's feelings though, so I'll just keep my peace and call it DI. Because the DI we talk about normally is actually called TDI, WHAT?!?!? YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT?!?!? LOSER. TRAJECTORY DIRECTIONAL INFLUENCE. Don't believe me? Too bad for you, it probably could have saved your life in a tournament kappa

 

[Gidy]

Survival wise yeah, it's a bit weird. Combo-wise it's way too young to really thoroughly judge, but as far as survival goes, I like its emphasis on offstage but I think that makes it really bad for other characters. Double edged swords suck : (

Agreed.

 

[Thor]

If this is the case for all combo's, them having diversity, then my opinion on VI may change when it comes to combos. I still think VI to survive is broke.

DI to survive is the same thing...

Example: Fox usmash does 100 units of KB [making a number up]. Vectoring would mean you go straight up and take 80 units of KB (assumgin 20%). If you DI such that you alter the launch angle by 35 degrees, you now go in a right triangle such that you sustain 82 units of knockback.

And unlike in Melee, in Smash 4 that makes surviving horizontal stuff harder if your recovery is bad, because if we use the same numbers for Falco dsmash (and assume completely horizontal), you either end up 82 units out and 57 units above stage level, or 80 units out and zero units above stage level. The latter is much harder to come back from for Little Mac than the former, but the latter is the kind of thing that will happen in Smash 4. Either that, or Little Mac can go 100 units away from the stage and 57 units above the stage - but if the blastline is 90 units away, that kills him.

 

[Gidy]

DI to survive is the same thing...

Example: Fox usmash does 100 units of KB [making a number up]. Vectoring would mean you go straight up and take 80 units of KB (assumgin 20%). If you DI such that you alter the launch angle by 35 degrees, you now go in a right triangle such that you sustain 82 units of knockback.

And unlike in Melee, in Smash 4 that makes surviving horizontal stuff harder if your recovery is bad, because if we use the same numbers for Falco dsmash (and assume completely horizontal), you either end up 82 units out and 57 units above stage level, or 80 units out and zero units above stage level. The latter is much harder to come back from for Little Mac than the former, but the former is the kind of thing that will happen in Smash 4. Either that, or Little Mac can go 100 units away from the stage and 57 units above the stage - but if the blastline is 90 units away, that kills him.

The blast zones with VI don't complement each other well. Some attacks not killing because of VI is ridiculous. DI altered how far you would be launched and where you would go, but the blast zones made it so smash attacks we're just strong enough for guaranteed kills. Here, you could have to Bair with Mario 3-5 separate times for a kill above 100% offstage...

 

[Thor]

The blast zones with VI don't complement each other well. Some attacks not killing because of VI is ridiculous. DI altered how far you would be launched and where you would go, but the blast zones made it so smash attacks we're just strong enough for guaranteed kills. Here, you could have to Bair with Mario 3-5 separate times for a kill above 100% offstage...

That would be an issue of blast zones, and not of the game mechanics then. And as my example indicated, DI might actually help someone like Little Mac survive longer then, where he could survive by being higher up AND that being the best way to not cross a blastzone, whereas now he has a tradeoff (as do all others) between being high and potentially dying earlier or being low and potentially dying earlier because he can't make it back.

And smash attacks are still strong enough for guaranteed kills, they just KO later. If you doubled all the blastzones on Dreamland in Melee, Fox usmash would still KO, it just wouldn't KO until much, much later (and even later when combined with DI) - the same seems to be what you take issue with in Smash 4.

The problem then, is people assuming KO percents are lower than what they are, and staling moves out before they can KO (I have heard, but do not know if it is fact, that moves stale even more severely than they did in Brawl, which staled more than they did in Melee - if that's true, it, along with larger blastzones, would explain the massive KOing issues people claim to be having).

 

[Gidy]

That would be an issue of blast zones, and not of the game mechanics then. And as my example indicated, DI might actually help someone like Little Mac survive longer then, where he could survive by being higher up AND that being the best way to not cross a blastzone, whereas now he has a tradeoff (as do all others) between being high and potentially dying earlier or being low and potentially dying earlier because he can't make it back.

And smash attacks are still strong enough for guaranteed kills, they just KO later. If you doubled all the blastzones on Dreamland in Melee, Fox usmash would still KO, it just wouldn't KO until much, much later (and even later when combined with DI) - the same seems to be what you take issue with in Smash 4.

Well, don't get hit with Little Mac

But with the elimination of VI it could fix this issue.

 

[Thor]

Well, don't get hit with Little Mac

But with the elimination of VI it could fix this issue.

No VI and no DI? What, you love Smash 64 or something???

EDIT: First, I like 64. Second, I edited my other post before you saw it so I'll just state again that I've heard moves stale even more in this game than ever before, so that plus larger blastzones may be the issue (people assuming KO percents are lower than they are and staling moves to the point that they wouldn't reliably KO might be the main issue).

 

[LocaMash]

For Glory/Melee players be like

 

[Gidy]

No VI and no DI? What, you love Smash 64 or something???

EDIT: First, I like 64. Second, I edited my other post before you saw it so I'll just state again that I've heard moves stale even more in this game than ever before, so that plus larger blastzones may be the issue (people assuming KO percents are lower than they are and staling moves to the point that they wouldn't reliably KO might be the main issue).

All I've heard today about VI...very interesting

Well, from what I've seen, DI is in the game, it just has really small impact. So if moves are stale I'd say increase the damage ratio. Or add Strength to each character for custom moves.

...wait, that would take out combos

y'know what, idk anymore.


And yes, I love Super Hitstun 64.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Hey, god forbid we gotta put in some more effort for KO's

 

[Thor]

Hey, god forbid we gotta put in some more effort for KO's

It's more like "God forbid we have to play like Brawl Falcos and not stale our usmash [or other best KO move] when fighting DK if we want to KO him before 200%."

 

[LocaMash]

Hey, god forbid we gotta put in some more effort for KO's

I understand, it's a joke Besides I play lots of Melee as well xD

 

[Greenshortz]

Can we all agree on VI as the name? i personally thinks it fits while staying true to the original name it was giving.

 

[Gidy]

It's more like "God forbid we have to play like Brawl Falcos and not stale our usmash [or other best KO move] when fighting DK if we want to KO him before 200%."

What's the point of Up Smashes if they don't work though?

 

[Gidy]

Can we all agree on VI as the name? i personally thinks it fits while staying true to the original name it was giving.

It's a fair compromise, yes.

 

[Thor]

What's the point of Up Smashes if they don't work though?

KOing.

Not everyone plays Melee Fox and has a usmash that KOs at 100%. Certain smash attacks just KO later than others (vBrawl MK may have been the best of the best but he couldn't expect to KO Snake until at least 140+% with his most reliable smash attack, namely his dsmash. And that's assuming it's fresh and he's relatively near the edge). That just means you have to rack up more percent before unleashing the KO move (something Brawl Falco players who were good at the character should be used to, hence my example).

I mean, even Melee Falco's usmash had uses, despite not KOing well (his dtilt was better at both KB and KBG I believe, while being just as fast).

Also I still prefer calling it "Distance Influence" or DI for short

 

[LocaMash]

Agreed. Although DI is probably harder to perform now, the new VI is very intriguing and will be fun to practice.

 

[Gidy]

KOing.

Not everyone plays Melee Fox and has a usmash that KOs at 100%. Certain smash attacks just KO later than others (vBrawl MK may have been the best of the best but he couldn't expect to KO Snake until at least 140+% with his most reliable smash attack, namely his dsmash. And that's assuming it's fresh and he's relatively near the edge). That just means you have to rack up more percent before unleashing the KO move (something Brawl Falco players who were good at the character should be used to, hence my example).

I mean, even Melee Falco's usmash had uses, despite not KOing well (his dtilt was better at both KB and KBG I believe, while being just as fast).

Also I still prefer calling it "Distance Influence" or DI for short

So with the explanation of combo's still being in Smash 4 with VI from @TTTTTsd, just more creative, and how you explained VI to survive isn't that broke I am having new feelings toward this mechanic. I just want to see it in action now.

 

[Tagxy]

Strong bad is a master at mechanical understanding not gameplay. Unfortunately cool as the discovery of the mechanic was, strong_bad seemed to have he wrong idea about the gameplay implications, which has now lead to a great amount of misunderstanding.

Ultimately, its not the mechanic itself but rather the size of the vector added as it relates to the angular range for DI. Or in more general terms, it depends on the size of the green box. This has partly to do with how movement in smash works as well. I find this to be a very important distinction, as the mechanic itself doesn't inherently lead to more or less combos. Thus far most statements on hitstun shuffling have claimed that there's a notably more shallow angle, which is how Ive designed the above picture.

And as Ive stated before, I believe the issue some peeps are having is their experience of smash 4 went from this:

to this

 

[Chilex]

Guys, if you don't like this mechanic and you think it'll harm this game's competitive future, or even if you want something else like increased hitstun, you can tell Nintendo that. There are several Nintendo employees that work on this game that have Twitter accounts, such as Bill Trinen, JC, and even Sakurai himself. Not to mention the official Nintendo of America and Nintendo of Europe Twitter accounts. There are plenty of places to send your complaints to!

 

[Da Black Rabbit]

Interesting. But I have seen the game hint calling it D I so that is how it shall remain in my eyes...

 

[Gidy]

Interesting. But I have seen the game hint calling it D I so that is how it shall remain in my eyes...

No, they called it hitstun shuffling. And Hitstun Shuffling is referring to Smash DI. However, I think Smash VI is more affective.

 

[Gidy]

Guys, I'm a little confused. Strongbad is saying that combos are impossible yet peoples tests are proving him wrong. What?

 

[Da Black Rabbit]

No, they called it hitstun shuffling. And Hitstun Shuffling is referring to Smash DI. However, I think Smash VI is more affective.

To each their own bro. Just makes more sense to call it Directional Influence in my eyes because you are literally "influencing" your "direction" when you are hit by holding left, right, up, down, or some combination of them.

P.S. I am really not trying to be a stubborn asshole or anything, it just really seems like DI has more "freedom" to me in Smash 4.

 

[Warchamp7]

Why are we calling it vectoring when the game calls it something already ＨＥＬＰ

It doesn't?

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Guys, I'm a little confused. Strongbad is saying that combos are impossible yet peoples tests are proving him wrong. What?

I dunno, maybe all the combos SB tested were just ones that don't work. Give it some time. We just found out about this stuff, it's gonna take a while for us to find out what works and what doesn't.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Having a strong neutral game in a fighter isn't exactly unprecedented, take SF2 and SF4 for example. Most matches spend a large amount of time in neutral, and just like how supposedly Smash4 is shaping up to be there are few true combos and the ones that do exist are two or three hits generally, that's it. The rest of it is a follow up game, tricking your opponent into reacting wrong so you can continue a string. And the best part? These games are not only less technical than their more aggressive kin in the same series (analogous to Melee in this respect), but they are viable competitively and are found to be fun to watch as well as play by many people. Smash4 having a strong neutral game (which can no longer be ledge stalled or planked) and more about guessing your follow up instead of having a garenteed hit shouldn't frighten so many people let alone be a harbinger of bad things to come.

The thing I find ironic about your comment is that most don't realize that mindgames and tricking your opponents also existed in Melee as that was a part of the gameplay.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I don't know why people acting like the offstage game is great in smash 4 there is no risk to it. You live forever and you have buffed free recovery with ledge snapping. Gimping and offstage kills are the only choices you got to speed things up. I went offstage in other smash games even if it wasn't safe now it just feels like i'm not taking any risk anymore. Now combos are even more escapeable with vectoring. Alway wanted was combos and low landing lag for this game

Combo's are still possible, you just need to guess what the opponent does in the air to continue your follow-ups/combos (Even in Melee with lots of hitstun, the opponent can get out of combos with good DI). In terms of landing lag, it has been fixed in Smash 4. Every character I've seen so far has at least two or so moves that can auto-cancel

 

[Gidy]

Combo's are still possible, you just need to guess what the opponent does in the air to continue your follow-ups/combos (Even in Melee with lots of hitstun, the opponent can get out of combos with good DI). In terms of landing lag, it has been fixed in Smash 4. Every character I've seen so far has at least two or so moves that can auto-cancel

Ganondorf?

 

[Gidy]

I dunno, maybe all the combos SB tested were just ones that don't work. Give it some time. We just found out about this stuff, it's gonna take a while for us to find out what works and what doesn't.

I hope there are more combos that work then ones that don't.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Ganondorf?

ganondorf's only two auto-cancel moves is Uair and Bair, both are nice kill moves.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ganondorf?

I think Nair has less lag, and I know Bair was always good. Das about it for him tho lol, but they DID buff him in other important areas at least, as well as a general speed buff so there's that!

 

[Gidy]

ganondorf's only two auto-cancel moves is Uair and Bair, both are nice kill moves.

Wait, from what I've seen Ganondorf has no auto cancels. He actually does?!

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't think Bair autocancels I just think that the animation ends in time for a full shorthop with it so long as you don't Fastfall. Uair I don't know.

 

[Gidy]

I don't think Bair autocancels I just think that the animation ends in time for a full shorthop with it so long as you don't Fastfall. Uair I don't know.

I don't see short hop Uair being useful on ground anyway...

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't see short hop Uair being useful on ground anyway...

It's better for platforms though, like in Melee. Where when you hit with that last hitbox it has this nasty angle.