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New Smash Bros for WiiU

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wildvine47

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I think Dark Samus would be great but they would probably make her a clone or semi clone of samus.

I mean thats exactly what she is in the Metroid Prime. games.
RRRRGHH SHE FIGHTS NOTHING LIKE SAMUS RAAGH THIS IS MY PET PEEVE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQCR-6w29K0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Xp_gRLB8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fDSq9FiULU

But honestly, I'm not actually angry, and I can completely understand why people think she'd be a clone. She looks really similar to Samus, but in reality, the two have VASTLY different fighting styles and moves. She could easily be very different from Samus if translated into Smash properly.
 

Conviction

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火山の爆

I. Intro&Table of Contents

I'm back again, this post will touch a few points that have come to my attention of the span of my absence.
  • Possibilty of E3 Trailer
  • Balancing; check subsection of Clones
  • 3rd Parties
  • Public Enemies
  • Newcomers*

II. Thoughts on E3 Trailer

Now obviously I don't believe this is the title screen but it looks nice for presentation
I believe a trailer is more than doable in 4 months believe it or not. In Brawl's trailer it included gameplay. Of course as seen here. Now while watching the video you can see around 0:35 Kirby's Hammer attack is very similar to his Melee's counter part.

Check the next snap of gamplay at 0:42-47! Look at that hitstun! Seem familiar? Looks a lot like Melee's. Also not only but that as we can see 90% of the trailer was just a bunch of Cinematics.

The point I'm trying to get at? Quite simple really.


If SSB4's trailer is a top priority, they can simply use brawl's engine for trailer only purposes, seeing how they did it brawl's trailer. Which leads me to another thing. Why are the engine/physics for Subspace more Melee-like compare to versus mode and everything else? Was Brawl really going to Melee 2.0?
III. Balancing​

Sakurai, Sora Ltd., and co. actually do here the cries of the competitive community or at least what I'm getting from my observations, anyone feel free to challenge me as I am willing to back up my points or if there really is a fatal fallacy in them I'll conceed.

Sakurai's Interview said:
A balance regarding the difficulties of surgical balance changes, and how they don't want characters to "feel the same," adding that specific traits/strengths/weaknesses are intentionally built to differentiate characters. Along with the "oh now that we nerfed this, this other thing is broken," etc. Iwata comments that this type of balancing is ridiculously hard and congratulates Sakurai for pulling it off with every single character by himself.

As seen here, Sakurai and Iwata both acknowledge the fact that all previous Smash installments had their balancing issues Obviously :metaknight:. Moving right along, let's look a little deeper here and get what we are here for, speculating. "...how they don't want characters to "feel the same," adding that specific traits/strengths/weaknesses are intentionally built to differentiate..." Now, looking at it, one could the feel they are changing characters from previous installments (that stay of course) so they won't feel the same. In other words that don't play the same. Now it's connection time, aiyyo N, you might not be around to read this but, this very quote can be the exact reason why you don't like the Brawl :falco: compared to the Melee :falco:. They are striving to give each game a new feel and with that the characters must change.

So that's why characters like Falco, Fox, Marth, *insert other Melee returned character* feel different than their actual counterpart. They did it on purpose.

Let's look at the "built to differentiate" section that specific snipet. Now I think anyone wants to know where that "built to differentiate" part went when they were making Melee and they added (Ohhh this will be a fun one to talk about) CLONES such as
  • Roy
  • Falco
  • Young Link
  • Dr. Mario
Right? Or how about in Brawl with general supsects
  • Lucas
  • Wolf
  • Falco again
  • Toon Link again what?
  • etc.
Right?

Well here's the thing the CLONES as much as the general population as I've seen from the thread tends to dislike are very far from being a CLONE

Here let's break the Ice shall we? All we need are two pieces of information to get this started.

The Definition of Clone

1.
Biology .
a.
a cell, cell product, or organism that is genetically identical to the unit or individual from which it was derived.

b.
a population of identical units, cells, or individuals that derive from the same ancestral line.

2.
a person or thing that duplicates, imitates, or closely resembles another in appearance, function, performance, or style: All the fashion models seemed to be clones of one another.

and

"...how they don't want characters to "feel the same," adding that specific traits/strengths/weaknesses are intentionally built to differentiate..." attention stressed on the bolded.

Okay! So now time to take two examples. I'll use two that from Melee and Brawl and show how they
  • Don't fit the defintion of CLONE
  • have "that specific traits/strengths/weaknesses intentionally built to differentiate"
Melee

I'll take out these two in one link :fox:&:falco:. This is set of at the time Japan's best Fox and Falco. These two characters are supposed to be CLONES right? I feel that my video will outspeak my words for how they don't even play the same.

Their strengths and weaknesses are obvious from the set two. Yes both characters fall victim to the fastfall but alot of characters, especially in Melee do.

:fox:'s Strengths
Vertical KOs
Horizontal Combos
Speed

:falco:'s Strengths
Horizontal KOs
Vertical Combos
Lasers

That pretty much covers it for the differentiating. Here where I strongly encourage you to look up Shotos. Shotos come from the same fighting style, which in other words, give off the appearance that they may be CLONES but they actually play differently.

Now onto
Brawl

:ness:
:lucas:

May I say I like to slap myself when I see people say Lucas and Ness are CLONES of each other...smh...anyways

:ness: vs. :lucas:
Ness has control over the air with his moves like Fair, Nair, and Uair. He struggles on the ground
Lucas has better ground control, thanks to his PK Fire, better grab, and tilts.
Lucas has better mobility than Ness as seen in the videos.
Ness kills earlier than Lucas
They are the same weight
Overall Lucas's recovery is better but it is more dangerous to challenge Ness's PKT2

Once again, I encourage everyone to use the term, shotos, instead because neither of these two couples I've listed in Brawl or Melee or CLONES.

Pieman said:
This is sort of unnecessary here. Everyone here knows that they don't play the same, but the fact that their specials (and sometimes normals) appear similar is what bugs people.
True, but many people I've seen still call them clones and say they play the same. This is a long shot to call it a trend but, seeing how the changes from Melee to Brawl, Shotos will start to lose that similar appearance look.

Melee :younglinkmelee: to Brawl :toonlink:
IV. Public Enemies
Now obviously people will have opinions that majorities won’t like. Don’t give up your opinion because it’s not liked, but the worst thing you can possibly do is try to force things down people throats if they don’t like it. This why characters and/or users become singled out. Once you become labeled people either will think of your opinion as lesser or not even consider it. This is how you get excluded from debates/discussion.



V.3rd Parties



When it comes to these guys, these guys right here , it’s always a touchy subject. 3rd Parties will always be a topic to bring up and will only get suggested more as activity increases in Smash speculation. As much as we would like to avoid it sometimes it can’t be done.
Sakurai allowed Snake and Sonic and Brawl so it brings the question, who will be next? Some say Megaman, some want 2nd characters from Komani and Sega, some want more obscure choices.
My last two topics are as fully fleshed as the other because well, they are self explanatory.

So with a month, 2 months? Of this being made, DISCUSS, I’ll continue to work on this and post it again when I feel there are multiple updates. This probably won’t come until we get more information than just the start of development.
 

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がんばってね!
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@Iblis: Isn't that that the same essay you had in the Discussion Group?

I'll comment on it in a sec, people really need to read the Public Enemies section.
 

Wizzrobe

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RRRRGHH SHE FIGHTS NOTHING LIKE SAMUS RAAGH THIS IS MY PET PEEVE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQCR-6w29K0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Xp_gRLB8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fDSq9FiULU

But honestly, I'm not actually angry, and I can completely understand why people think she'd be a clone. She looks really similar to Samus, but in reality, the two have VASTLY different fighting styles and moves. She could easily be very different from Samus if translated into Smash properly.
Yea in the Metroid Prime games her moves are different because if she had the exact same moves as you, then you would wreck her.

Thats why they give her moves that you dont have so she will have a better chance against you.
 

wildvine47

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Yea in the Metroid Prime games her moves are different because if she had the exact same moves as you, then you would wreck her.

Thats why they give her moves that you dont have so she will have a better chance against you.
Regardless of WHY they gave them to her, she still has different moves than Samus does, which could easily be translated over to Smash.
 

Neontiger94

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I think the prospect of getting a trailer in 4 months time is very wishful thinking. It's possible, but highly unlikely.

Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't brawl in a full year of development before the e3 trailer?
 

Wizzrobe

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I think the prospect of getting a trailer in 4 months time is very wishful thinking. It's possible, but highly unlikely.

Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't brawl in a full year of development before the e3 trailer?
If they do have a trailer of smash 4 at e3 which I agree is highly unlikely, it will probably be just a CGI trailer and no actual gameplay shown.
 

Conviction

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Neon. Even if that's the case. Brawl's trailer was completely made up of either
Cinematics
Melee engine gamplay

The point I'm conveying is, if they want to do it, they can. Just use brawl's engine for the gameplay videos and only use the original twelve as shown characters, the cinematics part is easy.
 

Conviction

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Don't make me try to blush, Metal LOL

Anyone in this thread can make something like that, we just need more dedication in other areas other than complaining about each other or focusing so hard on a single element of speculation that we close ourselves out of other things.
 

Johnknight1

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Okay, I am looking some polls at a Japanese Smash Bros. fansite.

Daisy seems to be the Waluigi of Japan (as in a character that only appears in the spinoffs that has far more popularity than he/she should). I also noticed that generally they don't want Pichu and Young Link to come back. Dr. Mario has a small fanbase like he does here.
I'm not surprised. I've heard from other people who read Japanese that she is quite popular over there (outside of smash). They like dem brown hairs! :laugh:
I have been reading Japanese reviews of games too. They seem to think very highly of Star Fox and Star Fox 64, but there is a lot of anger toward Adventures, Assault, and Command. 64 3D was also viewed highly.
Same as everywhere else. :cool:
I will talk more about my observations later. This was a while ago, but there was a topic on a Japanese Smash forum that had a topic asking people what characters they would like to see in Smash 4. Here is what I saw:
- Lots of whining about Mewtwo and Roy being cut.
- K. Rool, Takamaru, Mega Man, and Mii came up quite a bit.
- Lots of idiots asking for anime characters.
Point 1: Not surprised.
Point 2: Sounds similar here (with Mega Man and K. Rool) but I'm surprised about Miis (but not Ridley or Dixie Kong).
Point 3: Typical Japanese stereotypes... :troll:
If Ridley and Little Mac get in Smash 4, it will be entirely due to their Western fanbases and Sakurai recognizing their importance. Also, if you guys saw the Mario characters that Japan wants the most, I think most of you would pass on Mario newcomers.
Ridley is also hugely important in Metroid, and is one of the few "main characters" or the top 8 or so largest (continuing) Nintendo franchises.

If Little Mac gets in, we can thank Rocky Balboa. Little Mac is basically just a younger Rocky Balboa who doesn't talk! :laugh:
Also, both K. Rool and Dixie Kong get a lot of demand in Japan, with Dixie Kong having a slight edge in requests from the current trove I am picking at.
I'm surprised Dixie Kong is more popular anywhere in Japan than K. Rool. You think they would like K. Rool's appearance and "style" more than Dixie Kong's.
For some reason, Toad's popularity in Japan does not extend to requests to be playable by the Japanese Smash Bros. fanbase.
Wart confirmed. :troll:
I wonder if Sakurai is aware of Project M? I hope so. Maybe he will take the hint and make SSB4 play more like Melee.
He's aware of Brawl mods, and he recognizes that he feels that Melee was the "smoothest" game in the series, as well as the deepest. However, he also acknowledged the learning curve was too sharp. I think Sakurai may draw on some of the gameplay elements of Melee, while still making a new game. :cool:
By the way, I know a lot of the guys making Project M. ;)

Also, great essay Iblis. People get caught up with which characters are popular on the interwebZs, instead of which characters are popular with smash bros fans and people who could potentially become smash bros fans. Also, we tend to forget FAR TOO MANY obscure characters that deserve to be "considered." :bee:
 

Conviction

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Neon now that I think about it some more, your concern does bring up an interesting point.

If they bring out a trailer similar to Brawl's people will want to know more info. Which is to be expected, now all I can wonder is what will Nintendo do in response to the incoming fan stuff. Hmm...interesting

@John: Thanks, all I ask is that this essay will bring about more productivity in this thread and hopefully the other backroom I didn't post it in.
 

Sage of Ice

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if they just did a cgi trailer and didn't show gameplay, that would be enough for me. it would give an idea of what things are going to look like, while also confirming a handful of the new characters and stages.

then again, i'd be satisfied with literally anything. just showing a logo would be OK with me.
 

Johnknight1

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A trailer like Brawl would be too much, unless it shows off (mostly) returning veterans. Brawl got several popular characters (Pit, Meta Knight, Wario, and Zamus) out of the way real fast, and was slow on the veterans being confirmed. Personally I think if Sakurai really likes the Brawl roster, he should reveal most of the returning veterans (from that game) early on, including a few that some people have questions about whether they will return or not (Lucas, Ike, Toon/Young Link, Lucario, Wolf etc).

Personally I would love Ganondorf to be revealed early on... WITH HIS SWORD... OR TWO!!! :cool:
 

Conviction

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Ideally, I would love for someone to quote my essay and break it down and oppose. Nothing is ever interesting without opposition.

@Sage: Maybe I did jump the gun. They would have develop new stages, because people aren't just going to want to see past stages, I wonder how long it takes to make a stage from scratch

@John: Looking back, that is true. Maybe the character confimation order Sakurai and team does will leave us more in suspense of new characters instead of the old reliables :awesome:
 

Diddy Kong

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Gimme half of what I want and I'd be satisfied already. Unless the other half is like, really ****ing stupid.

:phone:
 

~ Valkyrie ~

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One thing: Melee had actual NPC and item trophies from PKMN-series, but Brawl just featured POKEYMAWNS!!!

Seriously, where's my " Kanto Gym Leaders" or Johto/Hoenn/Sinnoh Gym Leaders similar to Kirby Hat-trophies, having the respected Gym Leaders showcased in glorious 3D??
(-ÒΔÓ-)*

:phone:
 

Oasis_S

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It was just something I found on the old Melee site. I could find the exact link if you REALLY WANTED ME TO.

What are the odds that Google translate would come up with the wrong word for "two?"
 

Johnknight1

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@John: Looking back, that is true. Maybe the character confimation order Sakurai and team does will leave us more in suspense of new characters instead of the old reliables :awesome:
This is pretty much what I mean. I don't want to worry about veterans returning. Rather, I want to be hyped to play as these veterans again, to get my hands on the newcomers, and to be hyped about who the (potential) newcomers could be. I think also revealing Sonic off the bat or early on would automatically bring a lot of "focus" to these forthcoming Smash games. As we all know, any publicity (that isn't negative) is good publicity. Sonic always brings good publicity (to smash), as you may well know. :cool:

@ Oasis
At least it gave the graphic designers something to do. It's not like Sakurai and the other game designers and developers spent (much) time on that. :bee:
 

Conviction

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I Said yes please Oasis_S.

@John: I agree wholeheartedly, I think the delay of Sonic's apperance/or lack of apperance could be bad. Hopefully it'll be the former instead of the latter.

@Young: I could see, Gym leaders in the next adventure mode. (Speaking of adventure mode I need to touch on that next time around)
 

Wario Bros.

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A trailer (heck, even a teaser) would be enough to satisfy me. But since Sakurai has began development on February 21 and that E3 starts June 5, that gives him more or less 15 weeks to make something special to reveal so a teaser might be more likely
 

Metal Overlord

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@Horsetail- Yeah, Melee trophies were just better in general

I can't see any other release date atm other than 2015. MAYBE holiday 2014
 

Johnknight1

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There were a lot more obscure/not well known characters, series, and franchises represented with trophies in Melee. I like that. Brawl gave a lot more background to the actual series', though. I like that two. Personally, I would like to see both "styles" of trophies (and stickers [with descriptions=???]) return. :cool:
 

Conviction

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Hopefully, before I'm 21 Metal. I want to go drinking with my smash homies when I turn 21 XD

@John: I think trophies and items need to be soemthing I touch on too next time. I need to indulge myself into those areas though...idk much about them LOL
 

Pieman0920

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Melee had a lot of trophies that were made specifically for Melee. Brawl had a lot of trophies that were ripped straight from GCN games. This meant that with Melee you had a better balance of things, while Brawl you had a more skewed amount of trophies that had some nifty obscure stuff, as long as that nifty obscure stuff showed up on the GCN.
 

Oasis_S

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制作作業自体はCG会社に委託しました。
E3までに間に合わせる時間がほしかったので、
同時に3社(正確には4社)に委託し、
シーンごとに担当を割り振りました。
実作業は約2ヶ月ほどです。

Google Translated:
Production work itself was entrusted to the company CG.
I wanted to meet the time until E3,
(More precisely, 4 companies) outsourced to three companies at the same time,
Was in charge allocation to each scene.
About the actual work is about two months.

In Japanese for Iblis-kyun
For everyone else.
 

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がんばってね!
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I can read Japanese too (although not as well as Iblis). :3

"Probably should start updating the info tread with this and Chrono's stuff" :p
 

~ Valkyrie ~

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Iblis: I'd seriously love that, it would really show how important to the Pokemon-players' childhood Gym Leaders were.

Also, Cilan meeting Bugsy, Flannery meeting Erika, Elesa or Roark... God, I'd go all ga-ga at that sight.

:phone:

:phone:
 

Conviction

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Yeah, don't forget Tri can read Japanese.

So basically he said that having a trailer for E3 was set. So to get work done quickly as posssible they outsourced the work load to make it be done quicker. The product for Melee as we saw it took about 2 months.

THANK YOU OASIS *saves link* That's going in the essay
 

Oasis_S

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I can read Japanese too (although not as well as Iblis). :3

"Probably should start updating the info tread with this and Chrono's stuff" :p
Yeah, you should just look around through the old Melee site. You'll find some gems.

I found that Sakurai had considered Luigi's Poltergust, and that Yoshi's Egg Roll was inspired by Kirby's Wheel ability.
 
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