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Teching/Ukemi is also one of the big aspects of okizeme in fighting games. The other is hard knockdowns which don't really exist in Smash (should they?).
@Iblis
Please keep the people in this thread informed about the game. Helps me out as there may be things I don't know about. Oh, and I wanted to ask you this. I'm rusty on the range you can move with DI, but what do you think of there being 3 possible trajectories for any move with DI? Take Mario's UTilt. Should the options be upward (no input), move to the left (hold left on hit), or move to the right (hold right on hit)? Do you think DI has been made too complicated?
Teching/Ukemi is also one of the big aspects of okizeme in fighting games. The other is hard knockdowns which don't really exist in Smash (should they?).
@Iblis
Please keep the people in this thread informed about the game. Helps me out as there may be things I don't know about. Oh, and I wanted to ask you this. I'm rusty on the range you can move with DI, but what do you think of there being 3 possible trajectories for any move with DI? Take Mario's UTilt. Should the options be upward (no input), move to the left (hold left on hit), or move to the right (hold right on hit)? Do you think DI has been made too complicated?
Nah I think DI is perfectly fine the way it is. Just another skill barrier to break. But yes you have it right for basic DI'ing no input would send you up and you know the rest. SDI WAS really complicated but the Smash Lab has broken that down really nicely for anyone to pick up. Let me get the video really quick.
@Yani: Tbh, I think there should a dynamic event, where something like an adventure mode thing happens. Idk, give me more time to think about it, I'll make up something
Looking at that, I find it kind of wrong that proper SDI requires you to use the C-Stick. Seems like a pointless barrier to me. Mind you, though, that I just don't like the C-Stick.
It's not about it being hard. It just doesn't make sense that you should have to use two analog sticks to SDI. Surely, something like this could be simplified. Same goes for mashing to escape out of grabs.
SmashChu might be getting off to what I say, but I think the inputs should be simplified. I mean, what newbie is going to think to SDI (assuming they know that exists) with both sticks?
My position on this is like L-Canceling. There is no need for stuff like this other than to serve as technical barriers.
@Yani: I got it now! So certian events should pay homage to their games. I got an easy yet effective example too.
"Trouble in Dreamland"
Basic layout: Melee adventure mode; generic playstyle
Background: Kirby and King DDD has been kidnapped and Metaknight () has to save the day (or something silly like that)
Gameplay: Go through a stage resembling Dreamland as MK, side scrolling, beating generic kirby enemies and Mario enemies. Once you reach the finish, you face Bowser, you beat him once, small cutsence shows Kirby and DDD, being released. You think the event is over but then Bowser returns as Giga Bowser and MK, DDD, and Kirby team up to finish the final fight.
That would be an amazing event.
@Kuma: Idk what to do about SDI'ing if you don't like it, there isn't really a way to simplify it, it's been that way since Melee. I do agree about the L Canceling though, what do you want to do though, make a type of tech break for grabs in smash?
@Kuma: Tingle showed he can fight before Impa did, and Impa had a fighter's build in OoT.
Tingle also has his own spin-off titles, something no other Zelda character can claim. (Link's Crossbow Training aside.)
Tingle > Impa.
Tingle > Ghirahim.
Tingle > Toon Zelda.
Tingle > Any other Zelda candidate.
Play Skyward Sword, and finish it. You'll see then. Of coarse there is also OoT, but Impa would be based of from her latest and most significant appearance; Skyward Sword. She has also done a huge amount more work than Sheik ever did. I'd argue she even did a bit more in Ocarina of Time (debatable), but Skyward Sword really sealed the deal.
Tingle is novelity. And he's yet to reappear in a Zelda game actually. But yeah, he and Impa seem to be the most likeliest to me. Wouldn't count on him being in though.
Midna is Twilight Princess only. If she would've appeared, it would've been in Brawl. I personally would have liked to see her before Sheik, possibly as a Zelda transformation character also. But her time is up now.
Play Skyward Sword, and finish it. You'll see then. Of coarse there is also OoT, but Impa would be based of from her latest and most significant appearance; Skyward Sword.
Tingle is novelity. And he's yet to reappear in a Zelda game actually. But yeah, he and Impa seem to be the most likeliest to me. Wouldn't count on him being in though.
I'd be interested in hearing some ideas as to what alternatives could be used for SDI. Its as the article implied, you're using the least inputs possible, so its not necessarily a tech barrier (nor is it that deep of an AT).
If you understand you're character's speed to weight ratio, especially during different percents, SDI isn't as complicated as it seems. It really is finding those inputs that embrace "Wind resistance", if we can consider that within a video game. I suppose its a form of recognizing your trajectory during acceleration, it becomes automatic the more conscious you become of your own survival.
If you notice, early brawl players utilized the new air dodge mechanics to assist in their control over those trajectories. However it is now used sparingly due to the efficiency of SDI when considering fall/input control rates
I had to google Impa shes been in all most all the legend of zelda games so yeah i guess she has a chance.
The Legend of Zelda Old hag
The Adventure of Link Old hag
Ocarina of Time Capable of fighting
Oracle of Ages Lardass
Oracle of Seasons Lardass
Skyward Sword Capable of fighting....in the past. In the present time of the game, she was an old hag again.
I'd be interested in hearing some ideas as to what alternatives could be used for SDI. Its as the article implied, you're using the least inputs possible, so its not necessarily a tech barrier (nor is it that deep of an AT).
If you understand you're character's speed to weight ratio, especially during different percents, SDI isn't as complicated as it seems. It really is finding those inputs that embrace "Wind resistance", if we can consider that within a video game. I suppose its a form of recognizing your trajectory during acceleration, it becomes automatic the more conscious you become of your own survival.
If you notice, early brawl players utilized the new air dodge mechanics to assist in their control over those trajectories. However it is now used sparingly due to the efficiency of SDI when considering fall/input control rates
@Yani: They could do the same for Sonic's event too. LOL yess port Sonic 1 stage models into that Melee adventure formula. With Doctor Eggman as the boss. Title for event "A Normal Day In Mobius"
If Luigi got his mansion as a stage in Brawl, then Bowser should definitely have his castle as a stage in SBB4. He had been overdue for a reasonable home stage.
Edit: StarPheonix does have a good stage concept of it in his Stage Concepts topic.
Operation Moonfall: Skull Kid's last chance to get in Smash. Or alternatively, more fuel for Tingle.
EDIT: Even more fuel for Tingle is that while he himself didn't appear in Skyward Sword, you can find a figurine of him in the game.
The same is true in Spirit Tracks (Linebeck even has a GOLD Tingle figurine).
A Tingle wanted poster is also in Spirit Tracks as well as Phantom Hourglass.
Tingle doesn't really need anymore fuel after all, does he?
Young, and that guy has spoiled quite something for Skyward Sword for you btw.
Spoiler mode:
Yes, Impa both appears as a old woman and a young woman in Skyward Sword, but you don't even realise they are the same untill your done with the game. Exactly after the game is finished it's been revealed Impa is the old woman who helped Zelda and Link with basically everything. Impa was also the close companion, and guardian of Zelda as ordened by the Goddess (which infact, is Zelda herself). She apperantly can live a 1000 years also, which makes her all the more awesome.
What this guy told you doesn't mather because:
Impa can travel through time, and her younger version is helping out Zelda guarding her on the ways through the temples (thus implying: Zelda and Impa have gone through the same dungeons as Link). She has a double role in Skyward Sword, and would perfectly be able to defend herself while young. She also took hits from Ghirahim when she was old... and with old meaning: at least 1020~1025 years old
Also, Impa was in the game which celebrated the 25th year aniversary of Zelda. It was hugely implied Pokemon Trainer with generation 1 Pokemon became playable cause it was the series' 10 year aniversary in Japan when Brawl came out... Impa has been around long enough to warrant her the spot in a similar sence.
Another thing I'd like in Smash 4 is them playing around with hitstun a bit more. I actually liked the Brawl hitstun a lot, it's the overall speed that made it worse than Melee imo. But I've been thinking that hitstun should be different for each move. Some would have very little, other's much more.
I want to be able to chain more regular combos without having to go aerial again and again every time. Make a bigger difference between heavy hitting moves, and combo moves I should say. And make some characters less influenced by hitstun than others without having to mess around with weight too much.
Aka, make combos more noticable, and also more punishable. More super armor frames will help with this also. Speed shouldn't be the 'only' thing what makes a character dangerous. This would also help with the projectile game in overall I feel.
In this sence (meaning super armor frames and such), I think Brawl indeed did improve a lot on from Melee, but they could've handled it better. Make the game seem as newbie proof as Brawl is in the first appearance, but at the same time bring back Melee's insane combos without really relying on advanced techniques too much but more the engine of the overall game.
Young, and that guy has spoiled quite something for Skyward Sword for you btw.
Spoiler mode:
Yes, Impa both appears as a old woman and a young woman in Skyward Sword, but you don't even realise they are the same untill your done with the game. Exactly after the game is finished it's been revealed Impa is the old woman who helped Zelda and Link with basically everything. Impa was also the close companion, and guardian of Zelda as ordened by the Goddess (which infact, is Zelda herself). She apperantly can live a 1000 years also, which makes her all the more awesome.
What this guy told you doesn't mather because:
Impa can travel through time, and her younger version is helping out Zelda guarding her on the ways through the temples (thus implying: Zelda and Impa have gone through the same dungeons as Link). She has a double role in Skyward Sword, and would perfectly be able to defend herself while young. She also took hits from Ghirahim when she was old... and with old meaning: at least 1020~1025 years old
Also, Impa was in the game which celebrated the 25th year aniversary of Zelda. It was hugely implied Pokemon Trainer with generation 1 Pokemon became playable cause it was the series' 10 year aniversary in Japan when Brawl came out... Impa has been around long enough to warrant her the spot in a similar sence.
Another thing I'd like in Smash 4 is them playing around with hitstun a bit more. I actually liked the Brawl hitstun a lot, it's the overall speed that made it worse than Melee imo. But I've been thinking that hitstun should be different for each move. Some would have very little, other's much more.
I want to be able to chain more regular combos without having to go aerial again and again every time. Make a bigger difference between heavy hitting moves, and combo moves I should say. And make some characters less influenced by hitstun than others without having to mess around with weight too much.
Aka, make combos more noticable, and also more punishable. More super armor frames will help with this also. Speed shouldn't be the 'only' thing what makes a character dangerous. This would also help with the projectile game in overall I feel.
In this sence (meaning super armor frames and such), I think Brawl indeed did improve a lot on from Melee, but they could've handled it better. Make the game seem as newbie proof as Brawl is in the first appearance, but at the same time bring back Melee's insane combos without really relying on advanced techniques too much but more the engine of the overall game.
"It was hugely implied Pokemon Trainer with generation 1 Pokemon became playable cause it was the series' 10 year aniversary in Japan when Brawl came out..."
Bullocks. The Pokemon Trainer was a very requested character since pre-Melee (being beat out by Mewtwo and Mew only in that poll), and Red is the original Trainer to use. Charizard and Squirtle were also very popular as well.
FR/LG also helped his case. (Considering he takes from that design rather than his original one.)
Quote Sakurai: "No way! The Pokémon Trainer has finally arrived."
Another thing I'd like in Smash 4 is them playing around with hitstun a bit more. I actually liked the Brawl hitstun a lot, it's the overall speed that made it worse than Melee imo. But I've been thinking that hitstun should be different for each move. Some would have very little, other's much more.
The Brawl hitstun is just downright awful really. My main problem with Brawl's hitstun is that the hitting opponent is actually at a disadvantage on hit. Not only that, but on a less technical end, the attacks just seem unrewarding.
I want to be able to chain more regular combos without having to go aerial again and again every time. Make a bigger difference between heavy hitting moves, and combo moves I should say. And make some characters less influenced by hitstun than others without having to mess around with weight too much.
I'd like more ground combos. Going to aerial to another aerial as your only option IS annoying, but that's my personal taste.
Combo moves and heavy moves? Seems like a good idea for Tekken type combos.
Aka, make combos more noticable, and also more punishable. More super armor frames will help with this also. Speed shouldn't be the 'only' thing what makes a character dangerous. This would also help with the projectile game in overall I feel.
if speed was the only "danger factor" then it can be immediately be determined who's the best.
In this sence (meaning super armor frames and such), I think Brawl indeed did improve a lot on from Melee, but they could've handled it better. Make the game seem as newbie proof as Brawl is in the first appearance, but at the same time bring back Melee's insane combos without really relying on advanced techniques too much but more the engine of the overall game.
"It was hugely implied Pokemon Trainer with generation 1 Pokemon became playable cause it was the series' 10 year aniversary in Japan when Brawl came out..."
Bullocks. The Pokemon Trainer was a very requested character since pre-Melee (being beat out by Mewtwo and Mew only), and Red is the original Trainer to use. Charizard and Squirtle were also very popular as well.
FR/LG also helped his case. (Considering he takes from that design rather than his original one.)
Quote Sakurai: "No way! The Pokémon Trainer has finally arrived."
Yeah he was popular, but it was still a sort of suprise to most. But just a page or 2 back or so, it's been said that pre-Brawl there where even Squirtle and Ivysaur supporters. He could've easily gone with the trainer from Ruby / Sapphire / Emerald- cause I know for certain there was A LOT of Blaziken support.
Yeah he was popular, but it was still a sort of suprise to most. But just a page or 2 back or so, it's been said that pre-Brawl there where even Squirtle and Ivysaur supporters. He could've easily gone with the trainer from Ruby / Sapphire / Emerald- cause I know for certain there was A LOT of Blaziken support.
Another thing I'd like in Smash 4 is them playing around with hitstun a bit more. I actually liked the Brawl hitstun a lot, it's the overall speed that made it worse than Melee imo. But I've been thinking that hitstun should be different for each move. Some would have very little, other's much more.
I can see about having each character having distinct styles of stun to make a playstyle unique, but Brawl's approach to this issue allowed for a stun (coupled with knockback) that takes a fierce toll on DI techniques. The recovery is simply too stale in favor of the person that is trying to create an escape (almost lazy).
Granted, I don't prefer the intense kill rates of Melee (which promotes camping) as per the character's weight, Brawl's hitstun strips a layer of depth from any dream a player has on chaining moves together. The trouble of going after a good read means little rewards for the aggressor.
Its all automatic in Brawl: Got stunned? Just Air dodge!
The problem doesn't lie in the amount of stun, but the manner of gravitation (or momementum)the player has. No, in this case the concern would be a balance of percents and how those percents are linked to knockback.
I want to be able to chain more regular combos without having to go aerial again and again every time. Make a bigger difference between heavy hitting moves, and combo moves I should say. And make some characters less influenced by hitstun than others without having to mess around with weight too much.
Lol, that's what happens with too much hitstun, you can dodge cancel into a hop which forces you to go into aerial battles (or platform zoning). I think maybe you confuse hitstun with knockback properties as those properties are what promote a diminished sense of combos, not necessarily hitsun. Also, for a person who promotes super armor, it seems as if you don't comprehend the usefulness of having different weight proportions. In relation to the distinction between juggling and chaining, the interest of combos actually becomes more distinct.
Another thing I'd like in Smash 4 is them playing around with hitstun a bit more. I actually liked the Brawl hitstun a lot, it's the overall speed that made it worse than Melee imo. But I've been thinking that hitstun should be different for each move. Some would have very little, other's much more.
Brawl's hitstun coding is bad and you should feel bad for liking a fail. Speed isn't the issue as much as the problem is the ability not to be able to follow up well. Most of the time in Brawl you can get punished for hitting someone. How's that sound? Do your reasearch histun is different each move. Hitstun and knockback scaling are on all attack execpt a few that have a set knockback with no scaling regardless of percent.
I want to be able to chain more regular combos without having to go aerial again and again every time. Make a bigger difference between heavy hitting moves, and combo moves I should say. And make some characters less influenced by hitstun than others without having to mess around with weight too much.
That sir is called tech chasing. I can't see how you dislike juggling, it's in every fighting game even Dragonball Z. There are barely any ground combos in smash, ever. A lot of characters are influenced less by hitstun and knockback due to momentum canceling in brawl. Regardless of weight, it depends on speed of a characters aerials. A character such as Snake lives the longest in brawl actually and he is not the heaviest. Bowser is. Snake usually live to 170% Bowser is lucky to live past 130%.
Aka, make combos more noticable, and also more punishable. More super armor frames will help with this also. Speed shouldn't be the 'only' thing what makes a character dangerous. This would also help with the projectile game in overall I feel.
HOW ARE COMBOS PUNISHABLE? They are combos for a reason. Are you talking reversals? They all ready happen in brawl due to poor hitstun coding. Snake isn't fast, he is dangerous, Wario is that fast, he is dangerous. DDD is DEFINITELY not fast, he is dangerous. What do projectiles do with this at all? LOL
In this sence (meaning super armor frames and such), I think Brawl indeed did improve a lot on from Melee, but they could've handled it better. Make the game seem as newbie proof as Brawl is in the first appearance, but at the same time bring back Melee's insane combos without really relying on advanced techniques too much but more the engine of the overall game.
Brawl only improved a little and failed a lot. Stop making games noob friendly, just make it like Megaman that progressively teaches you how to play well progressing through the game. Refering back to my training mode options. Advanced Techs, add depth to the game. There is no such thing as too much depth.
I still say Tingle is most deserving of Zelda characters.
I mean he's got:
Appearance in Majora's Mask
Appearance in Oracle of Ages
Appearance in Wind Waker
Appearance in Four Sword Adventures
Appearance in Minish Cap
Cameo in Phantom Hourglass
Cameo in Spirit Tracks
Cameo in Skyward Sword
Tingle's Freshly-Picked Rosy Rupeeland
Tingle's Balloon Fight DS
Too Much Tingle Pack
Color Changing Tingle's Love Balloon Trip
Part of a Stage in Melee
Assist Trophy in Brawl
Would it be easier or harder to pull off online co-op for an adventure mode? COMPARED TO FOUR-PLAYER FREE FOR ALLS? It may be less frantic at times, but there's probably more things to keep track of. Especially if it's bumped up to 4-player co-op instead of 2.
I'm thinking that's going to be a big feature for the 3DS version at least.
It's not that hard haha
