New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Oasis_S]

Shouldn't the answer to fixing the "problem" of Sheik having more advantages over Zelda be to simply balance them out better, instead of separating them and replacing a more popular and well-known character with another character.

Of course, either of those options probably shouldn't be expected.

 

[-Mars-]

[collapse="Notes from Smash 4 inteview from 6/7/2011 (thanks Ankoku)"]- Sakurai is using his experience working with Kid Icarus 3DS to smooth the development process of 3DS smash. Mentions he would randomly think about Smash during Kid Icarus development

- "While I'm sure some people just want a new DX (Melee) or X (Brawl), that is not the answer I'm looking for"

- There's a lot of implied differences between the 3DS and WiiU versions. The issue of limitations (or lack thereof) come up ("I could make 50 characters, or double the stages, or make everything prettier (graphically), but with the WiiU I don't have to choose just one of those options"), while he runs into that problem with the 3DS, "maybe something fun like the original smash bros." adding something about a handicap.

- 3DS version will be more "personalized" than the WiiU version, as most likely the handheld machine will only be played by one person. This regards "personal data and achievements." He's probably referring to the stat-keeping mode the Smash games have had and how a handheld version would most likely only be tracking a single person's stats.

- Sakurai feels conflicted, saying something to the effect of "On one hand, a player feels a great sense of accomplishment by beating something really difficult. On the other, if it's too hard, they'll feel a sense of frustration by constantly losing to it." (implied differences between versions)

- Iwata goes on to add that a handheld experience is typically a "fun experience in a short amount of time," and that adjustments would have to be made to work around that.

- "So, for the 3DS version, since you must enjoy it alone, it has a system of rewards that you can customize your character with. And then you can bring these characters from the 3DS to the WiiU to fight on. So one "individual" on a handheld will appear in the "stadium" of the home console." Iwata summarizes by saying "The 3DS version is where players will earn individual achievements for themselves, while the WiiU version will be a place to show those achivements off"

- Sometime late in the Melee development cycle, Iwata told Sakurai "you can never have enough Smash Bros!," to which Sakurai replied "YES YOU CAN." Sakurai apparently doesn't remember this.

- Iwata mentions that he likes how in Smash, both high level and beginner level players can feel a sense of accomplishment in comparison to other fighting games. If you don't know what you're doing in other fighting games, you'll typically get destroyed, in Smash you can earn a few more hits. Sakurai adds onto that saying "You'd think it'd be natural to help new players improve, but when the goal of a fighting game is to beat your opponent down, that becomes difficult." Iwata "feels helpless and weak when he loses badly," and lastly Sakurai adds that "the 3DS version will have ways to help beginner players," going on to suggest co-op "There will be a reward system for good players helping bad ones"

- Apparently the balancing and rebalancing of characters was entirely up to Sakurai, but he's going to ask for some help from other members of the team this time around. He still feels the creator of the game will have the clearest vision of how the balance should look like, but definitely welcomes the help. Iwata asks what type of balancing he's referring to, and Sakurai responds talking about balancing animation/frame/hitbox data, while making sure it makes sense in the scope of the game. It has to "look natural and feels good to land the attack"

- There's implied distinction between casual and competitive play made by Sakurai, saying "all these claims of 'this character is too strong' or 'this character is too weak' varies from person to person." When he looked at the sets of data from Wifi games, all characters had relatively the same level of success. "However, according to the competitive scene, that doesn't seem to be the case elsewhere."

- A balance regarding the difficulties of surgical balance changes, and how they don't want characters to "feel the same," adding that specific traits/strengths/weaknesses are intentionally built to differentiate characters. Along with the "oh now that we nerfed this, this other thing is broken," etc. Iwata comments that this type of balancing is ridiculously hard and congratulates Sakurai for pulling it off with every single character by himself.

- Sakurai mentions that while new developers might see this initially as a learning opportunity, it'll eventually turn into a lesson of pain.

- More commentary regarding the extreme level of difficulty regarding balance vs uniqueness in a fighting game cast, with Iwata joking that "I knew I had an eye for talent when I picked you"

- Sakurai comments "the mechanics of a game better fit the system the game is on." The 3DS's small screen, for example, is something they have to work around, making sure the backgrounds and stage structure are clearly visible.

- Iwata comments that some designers enjoy gimmicks like FMVs and cutscenes, because it's where developers get the most free reign to show off their skills.

- Sakurai mentions "I think it'd be best if we can design something that works well and looks good regardless of whether it's on a portable or on an HDTV, but having a different team for each version is also good because we can still make very specialized additions to each." Each individual project will take advantage of each developers "specialty and where they're most likely to apply it."

- Essentially boiling down to "while keeping coherence between the two version is important, they don't want to use that as an excuse to compromise potential features for either version"

- Apparently Sakurai had no direct involvement with either Sonic's or Link's implementation in Brawl.

- He's slightly concerned by the fact that the various branches of Brawl staff worked on different schedules so the development process has gotten rather long. Iwata asks "but now you get to be a lot more hands-on with Smash 4, right?" to which Sakurai answers "Yes, but I'm coming into development right after Kid Icarus finishes, with no rest inbetween. So any help I can get is much appreciated"

- Sakurai says as a game designer and head developer, he really enjoys making something himself and seeing it turn into something good, but if he takes it in the wrong direction he won't reach the people he intends to. With Smash he wants to reach out to as many as he can. Iwata comments "this leaves a lot up to chance when it comes to the finished game," but Sakurai responds "I prefer it to a "stable" series where every sequel is juts the same game with a little bit added on. While it's painful to make something new, it's fun to figure out how." While with Smash, each iteration has a different fun twist, and even someone who doesn't know much about the series can pick apart the differences fairly easily.

- Iwata anguishes over how expensive the project is and that it requires a lot of people.

- Sakurai "Anyway, I look forward to the people you bring to this project, since the success of it is dependent on who you gather for me! Still, even if you don't gather enough people, I wouldn't want to see the project stretched thin, so we could focus on only one system." Iwata: "What? Even after we announced at e3 that we'll be developing for both systems?!" Sakurai: "Well either that or I take a small team and we take five years"

- in the conclusion, Iwata thanks Sakurai, and Sakurai says "thanks, but my time is currently focused on making sure Kid Icarus is perfect for launch!" [/collapse]

TL;DR sakurai says I'm thinking about making this game good, but im probably gonna make it slower and gayer than brawl.

 

[Starphoenix]

- Sakurai says as a game designer and head developer, he really enjoys making something himself and seeing it turn into something good, but if he takes it in the wrong direction he won't reach the people he intends to. With Smash he wants to reach out to as many as he can. Iwata comments "this leaves a lot up to chance when it comes to the finished game," but Sakurai responds "I prefer it to a "stable" series where every sequel is juts the same game with a little bit added on. While it's painful to make something new, it's fun to figure out how." While with Smash, each iteration has a different fun twist, and even someone who doesn't know much about the series can pick apart the differences fairly easily.

Huh? Well that is different from what he has stated before.

- Iwata anguishes over how expensive the project is and that it requires a lot of people.

- Sakurai "Anyway, I look forward to the people you bring to this project, since the success of it is dependent on who you gather for me! Still, even if you don't gather enough people, I wouldn't want to see the project stretched thin, so we could focus on only one system." Iwata: "What? Even after we announced at e3 that we'll be developing for both systems?!" Sakurai: "Well either that or I take a small team and we take five years"

Somehow these quotes I found humorous. lol

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I wonder what he means by "small".

Maybe wiiware game or a 3DS mini games (Whatever you call them) or some other things.

I believe in an article or something I have read, small refers to games that don't require years to make.

Wait until you encounter Ghirahim later in the game. If you thought he was interesting before he only gets better (in a demented kind of way).

Oh by far, he begins to lose his "fabulous" composure.

And about Ghirahim, he does not have a single hater as a character (some may hate that since he is a villain and theatrical, you can't take him seriously if you ignore his deadly serious threats, but that has nothing to do with him in general. Midna would need a fabricated moveset obviously, and it'd be much harder than most of the characters that were fabricated. I feel he has more potential to return than Midna as well, at least in some sense, since he ties in as

Spoiler

being the Dark Master Sword of the guy who all Ganondorfs come from, whereas Midna is just a princess in the Twilight Realm referenced once that had its entrance eradicated.

Just because Sakurai made Magnus (do we know this for certain?) doesn't mean that he will put him ahead of Palutena and Medusa. IMO, he's a rather meh generic RPG character (unless that's the point) that I doubt will contribute much to Sm4sh's gameplay. Palutena and Medusa are way more likely to have something new to bring to the table.

And I swear, people gotta stop drinking the Chrono juice. Nothing has ever been said one-shots can't be playable characters. And besides, Midna is rather popular and she could very well function without riding Wolf Link. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Minda was to return in a future Zelda game. Sure, TP's ending made it very unlikely, but Nintendo could think of something if they wanted to.

He does not seem as such to me, in fact we know nothing about him except that he has ties to the Underworld and is the strongest human being on Earth (Which seems interesting to me). Not to mention Paletuna does not have any clear moveset potential and is likely to not receive would since she is the guiding character from above, and would have to be fabricated entirely (though that may change), and Medusa is a generic mythology remake without even a smidge of Nintendo flavor. Magnus > Paletuna > Medusa, in my opinion.

Shouldn't the answer to fixing the "problem" of Sheik having more advantages over Zelda be to simply balance them out better, instead of separating them and replacing a more popular and well-known character with another character.

Of course, either of those options probably shouldn't be expected.

^ That. Don't mess with it, you'll break it.

 

[Starphoenix]

And about Ghirahim, he does not have a single hater as a character (some may hate that since he is a villain and theatrical, you can't take him seriously if you ignore his deadly serious threats, but that has nothing to do with him in general. Midna would need a fabricated moveset obviously, and it'd be much harder than most of the characters that were fabricated. I feel he has more potential to return than Midna as well, at least in some sense, since he ties in as

Spoiler

being the Dark Master Sword of the guy who all Ganondorfs come from, whereas Midna is just a princess in the Twilight Realm referenced once that had its entrance eradicated.

You haven't met Mario_and_Sonic_Guy...

 

[Holder of the Heel]

You haven't met Mario_and_Sonic_Guy...

I may not want to with that kind of mention. D:

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Trust me when I say, I highly oppose Ghirahim. He's likely to be a one time only character, and he's just creepy.

Make him an Assist Trophy for all I care, but keep him out of the playable spot.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'd rather see Impa myself, but Ghirahim would still imo make a wicked moveset. But it's just the SS after "high" that says this mostly (am doing Hero Mode, but kinda lost interesst atm) for most of us. Impa I see as different, cause she's far more likely to re-appear than anyone else (besides Tingle- who I see as second most likely but don't neccecarly want him).

So my Zelda roster goes like this:
1. Link (revamped and all)
2. Zelda
3. Ganondorf (new moveset, or at least particially new moveset)
4. Impa (spiritual follow up to Sheik)
5. Toon / Young Link (whatever version will re-appear first in a new title)

Spoiler

6. Tingle (if they want to take their time to make a "true" new Zelda character to still the hunger)

Shouldn't the answer to fixing the "problem" of Sheik having more advantages over Zelda be to simply balance them out better, instead of separating them and replacing a more popular and well-known character with another character.

Of course, either of those options probably shouldn't be expected.

Roy was popular to, yet he got replaced by Ike. Similar story to Mewtwo and Lucario. Why would Roy and Mewtwo be replaced by 'newer' characters and Sheik shouldn't? Popularity of Mewtwo is significantly higher than Sheik, who was only popular and "well-known" cause everyone and their dog played her cause she was in the Melee Top Tier for so long. >_>;

Seriously, Sheik has no more reason to stay if she's not returning in Zelda, which she won't.

And it's not like Zelda / Sheik is so unique anymore with Samus / ZSS and Pokemon Trainer around. Revamp Pokemon Trainer and you'll have the same thing with Zelda / Sheik, except no character gets overshadowed in the proces.

 

[Starphoenix]

And it's not like Zelda / Sheik is so unique anymore with Samus / ZSS and Pokemon Trainer around. Revamp Pokemon Trainer and you'll have the same thing with Zelda / Sheik, except no character gets overshadowed in the proces.

What... What is this? Wow, just wow... Don't make me pull out my Billy Madison clip.

 

[Diddy Kong]

y u hatin?

 

[Starphoenix]

y u hatin?

Y U hatin? I ain't dun nothin.

 

[Deleted member]

Impa supporters can harp on relevancy all they want and attack Sheik for it, but doesn't the remake show that Ocarina of Time is relevant to gamers today, making Sheik herself relevant? The false conception that Sheik is irrelevant is what is spawning these requests for replacement. She isn't as cuttable as people think.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Sheik ain't going' nowhere

She's an established part of Smash, just like every other Melee and 64 veteran

 

[Diddy Kong]

Then Mewtwo should come back no? Why was he cut then? And why can't Sheik be cut? I don't care how many times they are going to remake OoT, Sheik had no real spectacular role in it anyway.

 

[Arcadenik]

Personally, I want the Zelda roster to be revamped in SSB4.

Link - SS appearance
Zelda - SS appearance, no Sheik, new Down B
Demise - the "decloned Ganondorf with a sword" we have been asking for
Impa - the "separate Sheik" with her own Down B and Final Smash
Tingle - the new "Toon" rep, reps his own spin-off series (like Yoshi and Wario rep their own series instead of being Mario reps), the "Balloon Fighter" of Smash

And I want the Pokemon roster to be revamped, too.

Pikachu
Pokemon Trainer - 1st gen (same as Brawl), 2nd gen (because of HG/SS), 3rd gen (because of the possible 3rd gen remake), 4th gen (unlikely but possible), OR 5th gen (because of B/W)
Zoroark or Victini - the latest gen newcomer (don't care which one), continues the trend (Melee and Brawl each had at least one 1st gen newcomer and one latest gen newcomer)
Mewtwo - returns due to fan demand
Meowth - the 1st gen newcomer for SSB4 (I WISH!), continues the trend (Melee and Brawl each had at least one 1st gen newcomer and one latest gen newcomer)

 

[Arcadenik]

Impa supporters can harp on relevancy all they want and attack Sheik for it, but doesn't the remake show that Ocarina of Time is relevant to gamers today, making Sheik herself relevant? The false conception that Sheik is irrelevant is what is spawning these requests for replacement. She isn't as cuttable as people think.

Well... Impa is also in OOT 3D and Sheik is not in SS.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Then Mewtwo should come back no? Why was he cut then? And why can't Sheik be cut? I don't care how many times they are going to remake OoT, Sheik had no real spectacular role in it anyway.

Mewtwo may have it rough, seeing as it was excluded from Brawl. Frankly, I think the other generations need some attention too.

If it weren't for the fact that Jigglypuff is an original 12 veteran, I would've scrapped that puffball for Mewtwo.

 

[Big-Cat]

I prefer the idea of where you play Pokemon Trainer like Marvel vs. Capcom where you switch out via taunts so everyone gets a full moveset.

So, I'm back and here's the Zamus Concept:
[COLLAPSE="Zamus Concept"]Zamus can switch between using her plasma whip or not with her Down B. The switch is relatively (meaning within Smash 4's speed) the same as Amaterasu's Weapon Switch in MvC3 so you will be able to switch in and out during combos and resets.

Without Whip
B: Paralyzer
Same as before, but now it charges on its own. When charging, there is a small meter under Zamus' profile, but disappears when it's done. This is to be more faithful to the Metroid games. Projectile also travels more before disappearing.

Side B: Arrow Kick
Samus lunges herself with a kick that can be described as something akin to a Shinespark. A high knockback move with great horizontal recovery. Very unsafe if done at point blank and blocked or if dodged. If the move whiffs, you're in a helpless state.

Up B: Flip Kick
Same as her current Down B, but more vertical recovery.

Changed Normals:
DTilt: Now a command slide. Goes under certain projectiles and is safest when done from max distance.
FSmash: Cartwheel Kick, causes a ground bounce. Also dodges low attacks making it a nasty counter attack if you guess right.
USmash: Flip Kick, similar to Fox's, but is made up of two hits and has somewhat better range for the first attack.
NAir: Does a kick starting at her head and then spins vertically. Most powerful when her foot is at the bottom of the spin (yay physics!).

All her other normals in Brawl are now part of this moveset.

With Whip:
B: Zamus' Old Side B
Side B: Command grab where she reels the opponent in with brief stun. Enough for you to either switch weapons or to start a combo with the whip.
Up B: Same as before, more hitstun.

Normals:
AAA: Swings her whip in front of her. First hit is with the gun itself, but then she flails her whip for the rest of the attack.
FTilt: Cracks the whip in a sin wave motion.
DTilt: Zamus' Brawl DTilt
UTilt: Upward Kick that goes up her face. Decent launcher.

FSmash: Same Zamus' Brawl FSmash.
USmash: Shoots her whip at a 60 degree angle upward. Primarily as an anti-air or combo filler.
Dmash: Cracks the whip downward. If the move hits an aerial opponent, vertical knockback. If it hits a grounded opponent, it causes tripping/knockdown.

NAir: Same as Brawl Zamus' NAir
FAir: Throws the whip down on the opponent, easily one of the better spike moves.
UAir: Zamus' current USmash
Dair: Swings the whip below her kind of like Marth's Dair
BAir: Swings the whips behind her twice. Second hit brings them in.

Final Smash (Gun): Shoots her gun first and if it lands, she attacks with a flurry of kicks, launches them, and then gives them a final kick that sends them downward. Best used when near the edge of stage.

Final Smash (Whip): Waves her whip in all directions, once hit, the opponent will be hit by all remaining whips until she ends with what's currently one her taunts (the sexy one) and finishes with high knockback.

Grabs are the same for both weapons. She doesn't have a tether grab anymore so while her range was nerfed here, the whole animation is ten times faster making it safer on whiff. One thing to note is that FThrow will always have her whip out following it.[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Arcadenik]

I really don't care for the original 12. If people really want to play as Jigglypuff in Smash so badly, why can't they just play 64, Melee, or Brawl? Nobody is stopping them from playing those three games. I really would like to have the chance to play as different Pokemon. I do not want to be limited to playing as the same Pokemon, especially when the series is constantly evolving with the many new Pokemon each generation.

For SSB4, I do not want to be limited to Pikachu, Jigglypuff, 1st gen Pokemon Trainer, and Mewtwo PLUS only one new playable Pokemon. i don't want to be limited to six Pokemon veterans and one newcomer. Gimme four or five Pokemon newcomers.

 

[Starphoenix]

Mewtwo may have it rough, seeing as it was excluded from Brawl. Frankly, I think the other generations need some attention too.

If it weren't for the fact that Jigglypuff is an original 12 veteran, I would've scrapped that puffball for Mewtwo.

Personally I would have scrapped her still. Twice she has bumped Mewtwo from a Super Smash Bros title. If Mewtwo is in the next game I am doing a Mewtwo Vs. Jigglypuff match where he squeezes the puff right out of her and leaves her spineless and jiggly.

If people really want to play as Jigglypuff in Smash so badly, why can't they just play 64, Melee, or Brawl? Nobody is stopping them from playing those three games.

I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate HAAAAAAAATTEEEE this line!!! Do you have any idea how this, literally makes me feel inside. Furious! Outraged! Sick with anger! [Finally that quote works for something.]

AGHHHHH I hate it so freaking much!!!!!!!!! No joke! Kill this line of reasoning with hellfire!

 

[Metal Overlord]

I really don't think Pokemon Trainer is gonna switch up his Pokemon

I would rather them just introduce a female PT (Misty ) or something

 

[Deleted member]

Then Mewtwo should come back no? Why was he cut then? And why can't Sheik be cut? I don't care how many times they are going to remake OoT, Sheik had no real spectacular role in it anyway.

Mewtwo was cut due to time restraints and Sakurai showed no intentions of replacing Mewtwo with Pokemon Trainer/Lucario. What likely happened was that the demand for Sonic was so high that they had to allocate resource to Sonic to get him in, costing us Roy and Mewtwo along the way.

Also, if Sheik's role in Ocarina of Time was enough for Sakurai, it's enough for her to return and she was shown before Zelda in the Melee trailer. Also, by ripping out a major part of Zelda in Smash, the back lash will be larger then that of Mewtwo when we found out he was cut.

 

[Metal Overlord]

I really don't care for the original 12. If people really want to play as Jigglypuff in Smash so badly, why can't they just play 64, Melee, or Brawl?

Because people want to test their skills with Jiggs against the newcomers with maybe? Or they weren't satisfied with it in those games so they're hoping a buff/nerf in the new game? Durr

"If you want to play as Sonic in a fighting game so bad, then why not just play Sonic the Fighters?"

 

[Diddy Kong]

Personally, I want the Zelda roster to be revamped in SSB4.

Link - SS appearance
Zelda - SS appearance, no Sheik, new Down B
Demise - the "decloned Ganondorf with a sword" we have been asking for
Impa - the "separate Sheik" with her own Down B and Final Smash
Tingle - the new "Toon" rep, reps his own spin-off series (like Yoshi and Wario rep their own series instead of being Mario reps), the "Balloon Fighter" of Smash

And I want the Pokemon roster to be revamped, too.

Pikachu
Pokemon Trainer - 1st gen (same as Brawl), 2nd gen (because of HG/SS), 3rd gen (because of the possible 3rd gen remake), 4th gen (unlikely but possible), OR 5th gen (because of B/W)
Zoroark or Victini - the latest gen newcomer (don't care which one), continues the trend (Melee and Brawl each had at least one 1st gen newcomer and one latest gen newcomer)
Mewtwo - returns due to fan demand
Meowth - the 1st gen newcomer for SSB4 (I WISH!), continues the trend (Melee and Brawl each had at least one 1st gen newcomer and one latest gen newcomer)

If Ganondorf isn't in Zelda Wii U, and Demise is I fully agree. Demise has the awesome potential of being exactly the Ganondorf that we wanted for so long (or at least since TP).

Toon Link is likely to return though, but I'm not placing my bets on him till another 'Toon' Zelda game comes out. But it'll happen I think. If not, he can grab his bags along with Sheik.

And as bad as I want SS Link in Sm4sh, it'll likely not happen cause by then the new Zelda is probably already released. It sucks somehow, cause SS Zelda would be amazing imo. Let's hope Wii U Zelda will be even better.

I say 1st Gen for Pokemon is the best though. I hope Pokemon Trainer stays the way he is in Brawl, except for the stamina and revamped moves for the Pokes (especially Charizard). Don't agree with Meowth over Jigglypuff, but Mewtwo needs to return badly. I don't care who's gonna be in next to him, Lucario is fine with me, but a new face also would be cool and I have no preferences to who makes it over who in that regard.

 

[augustoflores]

i like that Zamus moveset... the Whip Final Smash reminds me of Whip's (leader?) Super Special Move (KoFXI)

so, she switches to Varia Mode with a taunt button... i had always supported this for all of the characters that had sub characters.
i'd prefer that she changes form the way she changes in Other M... rather than in brawl where parts are scattered.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Phazon Suit 4 Smash

 

[augustoflores]

so... zamus would be able to change playstyle... would there be any other characters that might benefit from this? (Ike with an Axe)

 

[Big-Cat]

i like that Zamus moveset... the Whip Final Smash reminds me of Whip's (leader?) Super Special Move (KoFXI)

so, she switches to Varia Mode with a taunt button... i had always supported this for all of the characters that had sub characters.
i'd prefer that she changes form the way she changes in Other M... rather than in brawl where parts are scattered.

Whip, as implied earlier, was the inspiration for some of her attacks. I hadn't thought about her switching back to Power Suit Samus. I would rather it be where Samus and Zamus are treated as separate characters. Sakurai treats them as separate characters (along with Pokemon Trainer and Zelda/Sheik) so I think they should be separated into their own slots, BUT I suppose it would be fine so long as the transformation is quick. My concern, like with Sheik and Zelda, is about one character overshadowing the other. If that were to happen, I'd prefer they'd not be connected at all.

 

[augustoflores]

oh, right... i suppose it's alright since we don't want to reuse a gimmick, right?

it's also alright since Dr. Mario already broke the identity rule... and Wolverine w/ bone claws... and Orange Hulk.

 

[Hoots]

I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate HAAAAAAAATTEEEE this line!!! Do you have any idea how this, literally makes me feel inside. Furious! Outraged! Sick with anger! [Finally that quote works for something.]

AGHHHHH I hate it so freaking much!!!!!!!!! No joke! Kill this line of reasoning with hellfire!

I couldn't have said it better myself. As a champion of logic and reasoning, those kind of statements are absolutely gutwrenching. Horrible, ain't it? I find it hard to believe that people actually think that there is a chance that Jigglypuff/Sheik/ETC could be cut. Granted I've only seen Impa once and she looks pretty ninjay(if that IS Impa, like I thought it was), a huge part of Zelda's INTENDED playstyle is to be able to switch back and forth between Zelda and Sheik depending on the situation. ****, even in the tier list, Zelda/Sheik is higher than Zelda or Sheik by themselves. You can't simply butcher a character just because of a lack of "relevance". If they made a huge impact on the Nintendo community from the one game they were in, then they deserve to be in Smash4. *cough*that's why I'm still not opposed to Geno*cough*

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

oh, right... i suppose it's alright since we don't want to reuse a gimmick, right?

it's also alright since Dr. Mario already broke the identity rule... and Wolverine w/ bone claws... and Orange Hulk.

They didn't really change playstyle in the same way as a new weapon.

Either way, I do agree that I'm just not a fan of one-offs. Also, yeah, after OOT 3DS, Sheik is most likely staying. Likewise, keep in mind OOT was constantly remade/downloadable before Brawl as well, so it's not surprising she stayed in Brawl itself. So she's technically still relevant. The main advantage I see from removing Sheik is so Zelda can be made independently and better overall. I don't honestly care either way, but I'd like Impa to be playable myself.

Also, the only reason I wouldn't mind Jigglypuff replaced was so we can have a lot more new Pokemon. But that's it. The whole "You can play as her in the other games" is poor reasoning at best. That would apply to Mewtwo, and you know what? Mewtwo was very bad in Melee. We wanted a new Brawl moveset that made him better. I guess we never had that chance, right? Which is why I think the reasoning is beyond flawed.

 

[augustoflores]

exactly how tall is impa? i just watched the ending spoiler at IGN and i compared zelda to impa... she is freakin tall!! taller than ganondorf if i had to guess... (please don't compare this to ridley height ramblings of others... this is a whole 'nother monster)

 

[Big-Cat]

Zamus would be able to change playstyles, but you need both to be effective with her. For some differences:

Gun:

• Fast Attacks
• Specializes in close ranged combat.
• Plenty of resets and mixup options.
• Pressure options.
• Low Damage in general.
• Low knockback on attacks.
• Struggles against getting in on zoning characters and heavy hitters safely (low weight and all).

Whip:

• Medium speed attacks.
• Better defensive game.
• Fewer mobility options.
• Safer normals with proper spacing.
• Safer time getting hit confirms.
• Can pull in opponents for Gun mode.
• Few reset options and mixup options.
• Higher damage and knockback, but fewer kill moves (she'd be too good otherwise).

And yeah, the "Identity Rule" has been broken in several games and this has a larger difference in comparison to Dr. Mario.

And on the Zelda/Sheik thing, my only objection to them being as is is that the time to switch is just to impractical to be effective. You gotta try to get a moment's rest to switch and that isn't so easy since Brawl's loading times are absolutely horrible.

 

[Starphoenix]

I couldn't have said it better myself. As a champion of logic and reasoning, those kind of statements are absolutely gutwrenching. Horrible, ain't it? I find it hard to believe that people actually think that there is a chance that Jigglypuff/Sheik/ETC could be cut. Granted I've only seen Impa once and she looks pretty ninjay(if that IS Impa, like I thought it was), a huge part of Zelda's INTENDED playstyle is to be able to switch back and forth between Zelda and Sheik depending on the situation. ****, even in the tier list, Zelda/Sheik is higher than Zelda or Sheik by themselves. You can't simply butcher a character just because of a lack of "relevance". If they made a huge impact on the Nintendo community from the one game they were in, then they deserve to be in Smash4. *cough*that's why I'm still not opposed to Geno*cough*

Yeah, it's Impa. These past two pages have been filled with things that are making me, well, rather unpleasant. Frowns all a freaking round.

Anyways I have to jet, finals are calling and I am sure most everyone here understands how those have been this week. Good to see you around though Hoots.

 

[yani_]

I couldn't have said it better myself. As a champion of logic and reasoning, those kind of statements are absolutely gutwrenching. Horrible, ain't it? I find it hard to believe that people actually think that there is a chance that Jigglypuff/Sheik/ETC could be cut. Granted I've only seen Impa once and she looks pretty ninjay(if that IS Impa, like I thought it was), a huge part of Zelda's INTENDED playstyle is to be able to switch back and forth between Zelda and Sheik depending on the situation. ****, even in the tier list, Zelda/Sheik is higher than Zelda or Sheik by themselves. You can't simply butcher a character just because of a lack of "relevance". If they made a huge impact on the Nintendo community from the one game they were in, then they deserve to be in Smash4. *cough*that's why I'm still not opposed to Geno*cough*

I like the way you think

 

[Metal Overlord]

"A champion of logic and reasoning"

Damn, that's pretty badass

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well Impa is just a great idea of keeping Sheik's moves, adding a new character, finally make Zelda her own character, representing Skyward Sword (no other character from it will make it anyway) and fresh up the Zelda roster a little.

Sheik was just in one game. Why does she need to return? They can always make another transforming character if they like.

 

[Big-Cat]

*cough*DiddyandDixie*cough*

 

[Diddy Kong]

^ Exactly.

Or, Deoxys if they really want to. (Am actually cool with the idea, but not above Mewtwo)
Orrrrr... Ganondorf? Sword mode to 'Brawl'-mode by pressing Down B?

 

[masterluigi1]

exactly how tall is impa? i just watched the ending spoiler at IGN and i compared zelda to impa... she is freakin tall!! taller than ganondorf if i had to guess... (please don't compare this to ridley height ramblings of others... this is a whole 'nother monster)

while she was pretty tall i don't think she was too tall. groose and demise were actually taller than her.