New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Gallowglass]

I've added some things to the Melee list and created a Brawl list. With Brawl, I left out the mention of clones due to the lack thereof, and many of the fighters referred to as semi clones are about 25% similar to someone else at the most.

Melee's Problems

Spoiler

-6 clones out of 25 characters. 1 was a semi clone, making it 6.5. In total, 12/25 fighters have extreme similarities.

-Most characters can't return to the stage due to their UpB. The 8 that are guaranteed are Fox, Pikachu, Zelda (not Shiek), Kirby, Jigglypuff, Peach and DK in some cases.

-Kirby's throws can be broken out of (in mid animation) due to lack of hands.

-A lack of stages make some characters essentially homeless, and other stages are used to fill the role. Ganon (Brinstar Depths), Roy (Final Destination), Young Link (Jungle Japes despite Great Bay being his stage), Bowser (Rainbow Cruise), Dr. Mario (Kingdom 2), Mewtwo (Battlefield), Link (Great Bay on All Star) and Pichu (Four Side) are examples.

-Some characters have clear advantages, while others have disadvantages. Compare Fox to Bowser.

-Bodies of water have no effects on fighters. This makes Jungle Japes and Great Bay seem strange because the fighters float like bricks in the water.

-CPU opponents can't detect motion sensor bombs, and stay in place (horizontally) when using a Warp Star. AI is very exploitable in 1-player modes as well.

-Many stages are not too varied and are often simply frustrating. Big Blue, Venom, Poke Floats, Rainbow Cruise are examples.

-Pichu XD

-Neglected series. However, the introduction of new series characters diminish this feeling.

Brawl's Problems

Spoiler

-Random Tripping. Known to occur at inconvenient times and can cost the match.

-Horrible Wi Fi. The connection is inconsistent (sometimes smooth but often laggy), Friend Codes as opposed to gamertags, lack of fluid communication (no mics), lack of robust online features.

-Slower pace. Game seems to favor defensive tactics.

-Classic Mode is not as random as Melee's. Master Hand and Crazy Hand are less fun to fight and that particular match leans to the boring side.

-Event Matches don't feel as creative as Melee's.

-Change in character properties. While this helps to de-clonify characters, some veterans are less appealing as fighters. Exceptions are Luigi, DK, and Kirby; they have notable improvements.

-Lighter physics. While this solves the 'Only Fox has a good UpB' problem of Melee, this affects a match's pacing.

-Some characters have clear advantages (Metaknight, chaingrabbing) and others have disadvantages (Ganondorf).

-Some stages are Frustrating. Spear Pillar, Norfair, 75m, Mario Bros., Pokemon Stadium 2, Rumble Falls, Summit, Hanenbow and Skyworld. However, the good stages highly outnumber the bad, so these can be ignored.

-Break the Targets! is the only mini-challenge in Classic Mode. No returning challenges, or new ones.

-Poor Final Smashes for some characters. The feeling is amplified by laggy online matches.

Feel free to add to these as well as agree or disagree.

EDIT: Would you all agree that most of Melee's problems were solved in Brawl?

@SSB Fan: OK.

Yeah I don't agree that Melee's problems were solved by Smash. But I agree with a lot on your list.

What Brawl Fixed

Spoiler

-I agreen that there was a problem with clones and Brawl did a good job in fixing that.

-Also the level representation was a lot better than Melee

What Brawl Didn't fix or made worst

Spoiler

- The overall physics made the game slower more "floaty". This is kind of a trade off because it made brawl easier to learn the Melee but less exciting. Also slower characters (e.g. Ganondorf) were hurt real bad in it.

- The character tier was more broad then Melee and it was virtually impossible to win with some characters (e.g. Ganondorf, Link, Bowser) even casually.

- CPU in Brawl was much harder than Melee cpu. They would gang up on you even though they were not on teams. You can test this by having a four person match and just try to stay away from them. They won't fight each other and just go after you.

I also see some bias to your statement too. You seem to not like moving or active stages. That is more of a preference then a problem.

I'm unsure about your opinion on Melee's character recovery. Are the characters metion ones that have poor UpB recovery? Because most of them have very good recovery. In fact Peach was design to be a recovery expert and her UpB is one of the best recovers in the game.

 

[lordvaati]

I just realized a shocking realization:

Toad may have a lower chance of getting in than we think. because going by logic, he has as much chance as waddle dee.

-Ridley has a better chance. and i see Takamaru as a default newcomer, a la Pit.

 

[Berserker.]

Anyone thinking about knocking some sense to Game FAQ? I can't tolerate the stupidity.

I bet their thinking of Smashboards like how we think of Game FAQ.

I just realized a shocking realization:

Toad may have a lower chance of getting in than we think. because going by logic, he has as much chance as waddle dee.

What the f---

Waddle dee? WADDLE DEE? You mean bandana waddle dee. He's not important in the Kirby series. He's player 4 in Kirby Wii because they couldn't find any other character. You dare compare the 2?

Toad's important and popular. Why is it that your comparing him to that? Bandana waddle dee only appeared in Super Star/ Ultra and Wii.

Toad appeared in.... a lot of games.

That's not logical

 

[lordvaati]

Anyone thinking about knocking some sense to Game FAQ? I can't tolerate the stupidity.

I bet their thinking of Smashboards like how we think of Game FAQ.


What the f---

Waddle dee? WADDLE DEE? You mean bandana waddle dee. He's not important in the Kirby series. He's player 4 in Kirby Wii because they couldn't find any other character. You dare compare the 2?

Toad's important and popular. Why is it that your comparing him to that?

let me put it this way. Toad is Playable in SMB2, Wario's Woods, and NSMB Wii.

Waddle Dee is playable in Kirby Superstar(as player 2), Kirby Canvas Curse, and Kirby Wii.

in Both games they are side characters- Toad is a servant at Peach's castle, and Waddle Dee as an enemy.

and Both are used fo current characters moves-Peach for Toad, and D3 For Waddles.

so in essence, they have the same chance.

 

[L-a-t-e-r-a-l-u-s]

Anyone thinking about knocking some sense to Game FAQ? I can't tolerate the stupidity.

I bet their thinking of Smashboards like how we think of Game FAQ.


What the f---

Waddle dee? WADDLE DEE? You mean bandana waddle dee. He's not important in the Kirby series. He's player 4 in Kirby Wii because they couldn't find any other character. You dare compare the 2?

Toad's important and popular. Why is it that your comparing him to that? Bandana waddle dee only appeared in Super Star/ Ultra and Wii.

Toad appeared in.... a lot of games.

That's not logical

I don't think Toad is a very logical choice. He has no... story.

 

[Starphoenix]

Anyone thinking about knocking some sense to Game FAQ? I can't tolerate the stupidity.

I bet their thinking of Smashboards like how we think of Game FAQ.

Many people have tried and failed... The only hope there is on Gamefaqs is the 3DS Smash board.

 

[Deleted member]

Tell me about it, I put a lot of thought into that stage idea and even refined it even more for my Gamefaqs edition. To bad Robotnik, Goku, Missingno being a new Assist Trophy, and My Little Pony are more important subjects than discussing the stage possibilities of a potential new series...

Honestly, Custom Robo deserves to be playable (Even thought he's far from guarantee) and the series deserves a stage to go with it.

I just checked the new Waluigi thread in Game FAQ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvAES6Y9Kfw

They actually think Waluigi is the most deserving Mario character? His chances are very poor, they need to focus on suggesting someone more realistic like Bowser Jr., Paper Mario, and even Toad (Yes I actually really underestimated his chance).

Anyone thinking about knocking some sense to Game FAQ? I can't tolerate the stupidity.

I'm planning on doing that. And if I can't, they can suffer and die.

What the f---

Waddle dee? WADDLE DEE? You mean bandana waddle dee. He's not important in the Kirby series. He's player 4 in Kirby Wii because they couldn't find any other character. You dare compare the 2?

Toad's important and popular. Why is it that your comparing him to that? Bandana waddle dee only appeared in Super Star/ Ultra and Wii.

Toad appeared in.... a lot of games.

That's not logical

Exactly. Being a playable character in a recent game once does not make you fair game to be playable in Brawl. Bandanna Waddle Dee has only appeared in three games, he isn't even close to a good choice for a newcomer. And yes, someone actually thought he was fair game.

 

[Berserker.]

let me put it this way. Toad is Playable in SMB2, Wario's Woods, and NSMB Wii.

Waddle Dee is playable in Kirby Superstar(as player 2), Kirby Canvas Curse, and Kirby Wii.

in Both games they are side characters- Toad is a servant at Peach's castle, and Waddle Dee as an enemy.

and Both are used fo current characters moves-Peach for Toad, and D3 For Waddles.

so in essence, they have the same chance.

No...

Let's just put it this way. Having a major role in the game does not matter. It's how important the character. Just because they appeared in the same number of games, doesn't mean their equal. Toad is important. Really important

I don't think Toad is a very logical choice. He has no... story.

So. Ice Climbers has no story.

I thought we were done with Toad.

 

[L-a-t-e-r-a-l-u-s]

No...

Let's just put it this way. Having a major role in the game does not matter. It's how important the character. Just because they appeared in the same number of games, doesn't mean their equal. Toad is important. Really important

So. Ice Climbers has no story.

I thought we were done with Toad.

Ice Climbers have the unique factor. I really doubt anyone expected them to be in Melee. Toad just seems generic.

 

[Deleted member]

Why are people considering other Metroid reps than Ridley to be more likely? The size argument is crap and no other Metroid character can properly represent the second slot better then him. It's sad that people are denying the fact that Ridley has huge fan demand and is near guarantee.

This topic is pretty much a textbook example of everything that is wrong about GameFAQs message boards.

Perfectly sums up the worst of the fan base.

 

[Berserker.]

Ice Climbers have the unique factor. I really doubt anyone expected them to be in Melee. Toad just seems generic.

Generic?

I think someone posted something like this before. What about Yoshi and Jr? Jr is basically a mini bowser who can use a paint brush. Yoshi is a dinosaur that can lay eggs. Toad has superhuman strength, very fast and can summon mushrooms. If you're talking about the color of Toad being confused with the others, what about Yoshi?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Brawl's CPUs really were messed up, and not in a good way either.

In Melee, the level 1's hardly did much, which is appropriate for the "Puny" statement. Brawl's level 1's are more appropriate for level 3, which got the "Weak" statement; they're anything but puny.

Basically, level 1's aren't supposed to do shield-grabs at all. That's the one thing that I hate the most about Brawl's CPUs.

 

[Shorts]

Waddle dee? WADDLE DEE? You mean bandana waddle dee. He's not important in the Kirby series. He's player 4 in Kirby Wii because they couldn't find any other character. You dare compare the 2?

lol, you know that the reason we have two Toads in NSMBWii is because Miyomoto was lazy. Toad has a lot going for him, but being playable isn't one of them really. That new Kirby game looks awesome. I'm excited. Bandana Dee should have been someone like Adeleine, or FREAKING GOOEY. I love Gooey. This was their perfect time to bring him baack.

 

[Berserker.]

lol, you know that is the reason we have two Toads in NSMBWii. Toad has a lot going for him, but being playable isn't one of them really. That new Kirby game looks awesome. I'm excited. Bandana Dee should have been someone like Adeleine, or FREAKING GOOEY. I love Gooey. This was their perfect time to bring him baack.

That's true. Toad has a lot going for him.

Anyway, can we talk about something else? How about that video I posted?

I'm excited for the new Kirby. I'm playing as Meta Knight or Waddle Dee. Sorry king '^_^

 

[Starphoenix]

Been watching the Japanese "Let's Play" videos for Custom Robo and I kept having this weird sense of déja vû. Then, suddenly I realized something startling!

Custom Robo's layout is VERY similar to Megaman Battle Network! So similar even the concept is the same when you look at it!

 

[Deleted member]

Generic?

I think someone posted something like this before. What about Yoshi and Jr? Jr is basically a mini bowser who can use a paint brush. Yoshi is a dinosaur that can lay eggs. Toad has superhuman strength, very fast and can summon mushrooms. If you're talking about the color of Toad being confused with the others, what about Yoshi?

You're not giving enough credit for how creative using eggs and paint brushes can be for this kind of game. Toad's "superhuman strength" has little bearing since there's already a bunch of other super-strong characters. Not to mention that when one thinks of strength, they don't tend to think of a child-like, mushroom-headed man.

 

[Berserker.]

You're not giving enough credit for how creative using eggs and paint brushes can be for this kind of game. Toad's "superhuman strength" has little bearing since there's already a bunch of other super-strong characters. Not to mention that when one thinks of strength, they don't to think of a child-like, mushroom-headed man.

Both are creative but people just look down at Toad. They just call him generic. Well, he still has one unique trait: Summoning mushrooms.

Seriously, can we talk about something else?

 

[Deleted member]

Both are creative but people just look down at Toad. They just call him generic. Well, he still has one unique trait: Summoning mushrooms.

And how do propose that a moveset be based around that?

EDIT: Very well, I'll stop here.

 

[Berserker.]

And how do propose that a moveset be based around that?

You can mix his strength in SMB 2 with that. There's nothing wrong with making his moveset based on strength.

Yes. Let's not talk about Toad :/

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I just realized a shocking realization:

Toad may have a lower chance of getting in than we think. because going by logic, he has as much chance as waddle dee.

-Ridley has a better chance. and i see Takamaru as a default newcomer, a la Pit.

THE Toad pretty much only appeared in one mainstream game, which is the US Super Mario Bros. 2. Wario's Woods is merely a Wario series spin-off title.

In almost every mainstream Mario title, only the Toad species was present. THE Toad was nowhere to be seen, except for a cameo appearance in Super Mario Galaxy.

People do debate that the Red Toad of the Toad Brigade is THE Toad, but I find that to be quite doubtful.

Anyway, from what I've gathered, THE Toad has had less mainstream appearances than Bowser Jr.. Of course, anything can happen if the Ice Climbers were able to enter the fray.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

lol, you know that the reason we have two Toads in NSMBWii is because Miyomoto was lazy. Toad has a lot going for him, but being playable isn't one of them really. That new Kirby game looks awesome. I'm excited. Bandana Dee should have been someone like Adeleine, or FREAKING GOOEY. I love Gooey. This was their perfect time to bring him baack.

Don't knock Waddle Dee dude

 

[Berserker.]

THE Toad pretty much only appeared in one mainstream game, which is the US Super Mario Bros. 2. Wario's Woods is merely a Wario series spin-off title.

In almost every mainstream Mario title, only the Toad species was present. THE Toad was nowhere to be seen, except for a cameo appearance in Super Mario Galaxy.

People do debate that the Red Toad of the Toad Brigade is THE Toad, but I find that to be quite doubtful.

Anyway, from what I've gathered, THE Toad has had less mainstream appearances than Bowser Jr.. Of course, anything can happen if the Ice Climbers were able to enter the fray.

Wasn't Toad the red toad in mario galaxy and sunshine?

Then again, the role does not matter. It's how important and popular the guy is. The red toad in the booklet of Mario sunshine confirmed it was Toad. According to the bios in the mario galaxy manual, Toad is THE captain.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

I'm really excited for the new Smash Bros. I can't wait! Thanks Masahiro Sakurai (and your team and partners) for making another Smash Bros. Game. ¡Thanks!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Wasn't Toad the red toad in mario galaxy and sunshine?

Then again, the role does not matter. It's how important and popular the guy is. The red toad in the booklet of Mario sunshine confirmed it was Toad. According to the bios in the mario galaxy manual, Toad is THE captain.

Still it's quite odd, since THE Toad wears a white mushroom cap with red spots, and a blue vest with yellow rims. I'd think that he'd maintain those properties if he really was the Toad Brigade captain.

 

[Deleted member]

Wasn't Toad the red toad in mario galaxy and sunshine?

Then again, the role does not matter. It's how important and popular the guy is. The red toad in the booklet of Mario sunshine confirmed it was Toad. According to the bios in the mario galaxy manual, Toad is THE captain.

There's more to it than popularity. Toad's not making it in because, other than the ability to summon mushrooms, there's really nothing to distinguish from from any super-strong character. Genericness doesn't really work in Smash Bros.

 

[Berserker.]

Still it's quite odd, since THE Toad wears a white mushroom cap with red spots, and a blue vest with yellow rims. I'd think that he'd maintain those properties if he really was the Toad Brigade captain.

I think it's to add some color.

You know, since their jacket resembles the mushroom cap, nintendo must have changed Toad's jacket to Red in sunshine and galaxy. To make it match like the other Toads.


So his appearances:
Super Mario Bros. - One of the mushroom retainers
Super Mario Bros. 2
Super Mario Bros. 3 - The one that appears in the mushroom houses
Super Mario 64 - The first Toad you meet?
Super Mario Sunshine
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Mario Galaxy 2

 

[Shorts]

Don't knock Waddle Dee dude

Gooey literally eats Waddle Dee's for breaky. He was P2 in the second Kirby game

 

[L-a-t-e-r-a-l-u-s]

Generic?

I think someone posted something like this before. What about Yoshi and Jr? Jr is basically a mini bowser who can use a paint brush. Yoshi is a dinosaur that can lay eggs. Toad has superhuman strength, very fast and can summon mushrooms. If you're talking about the color of Toad being confused with the others, what about Yoshi?

Toad is too minor of a character. In most of his games hes just another character. Unlike Yoshi, he doesn't really have a game of his own. I never said anything about Bowser Jr. About Ridley, I still don't like the thought of Ridley being PLAYABLE. I think Ridley is best suited as Boss material.

 

[Berserker.]

There's more to it than popularity. Toad's not making it in because, other than the ability to summon mushrooms, there's really nothing to distinguish from from any super-strong character. Genericness doesn't really work in Smash Bros.

So?

Both DK and Bowser are similiar in terms of strength. So is Ganondorf. Why can't Toad get in? He can also use the other items that he used in SMB Wii

Toad is too minor of a character. In most of his games hes just another character. Unlike Yoshi, he doesn't really have a game of his own. I never said anything about Bowser Jr. About Ridley, I still don't like the thought of Ridley being PLAYABLE. I think Ridley is best suited as Boss material.

He's not minor. He has a major role.

For the last time, role does not matter.

Please read: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12801613&postcount=38573

 

[L-a-t-e-r-a-l-u-s]

So.

Both DK and Bowser are similiar in terms of strength. So is Ganondorf. Why can't Toad get in?


He's not minor. He has a major role.

For the last time, role does not matter.

A MAJOR role? In the first game all he does is tell you that the princess is in another castle...

I'm not going to read a wall of text.

 

[Berserker.]

A MAJOR role? In the first game all he does is tell you that the princess is in another castle...

He only had a minor role in the first game.

I'm off for now.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think it's to add some color.

You know, since their jacket resembles the mushroom cap, nintendo must have changed Toad's jacket to Red in sunshine and galaxy. To make it match like the other Toads.


So his appearances:
Super Mario Bros. - One of the mushroom retainers
Super Mario Bros. 2
Super Mario Bros. 3 - The one that appears in the mushroom houses
Super Mario 64 - The first Toad you meet?
Super Mario Sunshine
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Mario Galaxy 2

The problem still remains that even generic Toads utilize Toad's clothing scheme, so it can be hard to tell which Toad is THE Toad.

 

[L-a-t-e-r-a-l-u-s]

He only had a minor role in the first game.

I'm off for now.

The only game I can think of in which he's playable (Other than Mariokart) is Super Mario Bros. 2. Also, if you want me to argue AFTER I read said wall of text, then why don't we apply that to all of the other suggested characters? We don't. That's illogical and time consuming for a game that isn't even in development yet.

 

[Shorts]

He only had a minor role in the first game.

He only always has a Minor role. Very few occasions is this not true. Toad has popularity, that's pretty much it.

 

[Deleted member]

Both DK and Bowser are similiar in terms of strength. So is Ganondorf. Why can't Toad get in? He can also use the other items that he used in SMB Wii

Those three all channel their strength in different ways.

Donkey Kong is the only one of those who only has strength, and I doubt other strong characters would slam the ground with their palms or headbutt their opponent into the ground.

Bowser can breathe fire, and it bears mentioning that he mostly uses his claws.

Ganondorf's justification is that he uses dark magic. Hell, he chokes his victim for one of his attacks.

Toad offers nothing new to the table, except mushrooms.

 

[Sleek Media]

Isaac
Megaman
Shadow
Waluigi
BALANCE

What else could you possibly need?

 

[Oasis_S]

We need Shadow and Waluigi off that list. In favor of Ridley and Little Mac perhaps.

Spoiler

(or Sukapon :V )

 

[Starphoenix]

Isaac
Megaman
Ray MkIII
Paper Mario
Mewtwo
Slime
BALANCE
BETTER WI-FI

What else could you possibly need?

There, fixed...

Imagine a Samus Vs. R.O.B Vs. Ray MKIII Vs. Megaman match? :O

 

[Deleted member]

Imagine a Samus Vs. R.O.B Vs. Ray MKIII Vs. Megaman match? :O

That would be so awesome. I support all four of them being playable in the next Smash.

 

[Starphoenix]

How about we discuss out little "nitpick" topics?

I want the post game achievement system, in Melee, to return. That was something I missed in Brawl, when my family and I would play Melee we used to go through our list after each match and tally our accomplishments (or failures)... They were fun little extras that added to the game.