New Singles Ruleset Idea (just want feedback)

[Kanelol]

play for more than 5 months, and try playing a space animal against any decent marth on FD, then tell me counterpicks aren't important

 

[BigWenz]

1. Get the lead as Young Link.
2. Jump down to the lower turret.
3. Crouch.
4. GG, you're unapproachable.

welp ill accept this as a valid reason. i wanted to see if anyone could give a non spacies example of why it should be banned and that is a good one.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yep, Young Link's shield blocks the turret blast. It's pretty boss. Very few characters can safely reach.

Doesn't work with Link though, his shield is too high.

 

[BigWenz]

Yep, Young Link's shield blocks the turret blast. It's pretty boss. Very few characters can safely reach.

Doesn't work with Link though, his shield is too high.

yea i went and tried it the moment i read ur post and i was like well damm aint dis a ****. so i can see that one being ban worthy.


next question is minus the obvious jiggs and peach have an advantage there, why is mute city banned over cruise and brinstar. imo mute city is to jiggs and peach as rc is to fox and falco. its their bread and butter counterpick. i dont understand why fox and falco get to have a counterpick so heavily in their favor while jiggs and peach cant get one of their own. like i understand cars can sometimes be a pain but are they really that much of a problem that it makes mute city ban worthy?

 

[-ACE-]

I can give you MANY more examples, if you'd like.

Ok, give me MANY examples of situations where stages that are both currently legal and make a disadvantaged matchup even worse would not be banned when both players had multiple bans. And you'd better give me enough to warrant arguing against my use of the word "often".

We AREN'T gaining camping, because the stages would be banned in any MU that results in camping. We AREN'T gaining stage hazards that completely destroy characters (like the lava on Brinstar against Fox) because those stages can be banned too.

Finally: We don't have to have stages that give a large advantage either, because, guess what: You can ban a stage that your opponent is really good on.

I ban KJ64 against the campiest Fox in the world. He picks RC. auto-win. One ban doesn't ban hardcore camping with our current stage list. You seem to be under the impression that 1 ban makes up for more than one camp-promoting stages. This isn't the case.

 

[Bing]

play for more than 5 months, and try playing a space animal against any decent marth on FD, then tell me counterpicks aren't important

teehee, ive been playing for 6 months, and I've played I.B(just for a marth example)

Also I've played Unknown522,Raynex and Kirbykaze. I PERSONALLY dont feel that counterpicks are too important...

 

[LatexRhombus]

i think you are exaggerating a bit too much when you say "auto-win"

edit: lol bing you cut me off, i wanna ask you something though, as a new player, would you prefer fewer legal stages or more legal stages or is it about right where it is?

 

[-ACE-]

1. Get the lead as Young Link.
2. Jump down to the lower turret.
3. Crouch.
4. GG, you're unapproachable.

What are your thoughts on Jiggs getting the lead on KJ64 and camping the barrels?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ok, give me MANY examples of situations where stages that are both currently legal and make a disadvantaged matchup even worse would not be banned when both players had multiple bans. And you'd better give me enough to warrant arguing against my use of the word "often".

Why do I have to argue against the word often? Theoretically, one match-up being fine there should be enough for the stage to be legal.

But alright then, the stage is NOT broken in the following match-ups:

MUTE CITY:
Fox vs. Falco
Fox vs. Sheik
Falco vs. Sheik
Jigglypuff vs. Peach
Jigglypuff vs. Samus
Jigglypuff vs. Pikachu
Peach vs. Samus
Peach vs. Pikachu
Fox vs. Dr. Mario
Fox vs. Mario
Fox vs. Luigi
Falco vs. Dr. Mario
Falco vs. Mario
Falco vs. Luigi

Want more?

I ban KJ64 against the campiest Fox in the world. He picks RC. auto-win. One ban doesn't ban hardcore camping with our current stage list. You seem to be under the impression that 1 ban makes up for more than one camp-promoting stages. This isn't the case.

Right, because I was under the impression that one ban "makes up for more than one camp-promoting stages"... Despite having said earlier in the thread that adding more stage bans is a good idea.

What are your thoughts on Jiggs getting the lead on KJ64 and camping the barrels?

In my experience so far, it's VERY strong... I'm not sure though, it'd be great if someone could actually try it in a high/top level tournament and see if it works out for them.

 

[-ACE-]

i think you are exaggerating a bit too much when you say "auto-win"

Picture a player who isn't top tier facing a fox like this on rainbow cruise. Close enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3rFAb5GWzc

 

[BigWenz]

What are your thoughts on Jiggs getting the lead on KJ64 and camping the barrels?

i know this wasnt addressed to me but ima add my 2 cents anyway.

against which chars? cause for starters for alotta characters if u let jiggs get the lead on kongo ur doing it wrong lol.


also u can hit her once she pops up. its a bit risky depending on where she pops up at but its not unbeatable. no where close.

 

[-ACE-]

Why do I have to argue against the word often? Theoretically, one match-up being fine there should be enough for the stage to be legal.

But alright then, the stage is NOT broken in the following match-ups:

MUTE CITY:
Fox vs. Falco
Fox vs. Sheik
Falco vs. Sheik
Jigglypuff vs. Peach
Jigglypuff vs. Samus
Jigglypuff vs. Pikachu
Peach vs. Samus
Peach vs. Pikachu
Fox vs. Dr. Mario
Fox vs. Mario
Fox vs. Luigi
Falco vs. Dr. Mario
Falco vs. Mario
Falco vs. Luigi

Want more?

Ok, give me MANY examples of situations where stages that are both currently legal and make a disadvantaged matchup even worse would not be banned when both players had multiple bans. And you'd better give me enough to warrant arguing against my use of the word "often".

I guess you missed that. And you're arguing against my use of the word "often" because you contested the part of my statement which contained that stipulation. You're acting like I said "always".

Right, because I was under the impression that one ban "makes up for more than one camp-promoting stages"... Despite having said earlier in the thread that adding more stage bans is a good idea.

I didn't know you were still pulling for you multiple bans suggestion, it seemed like you were arguing against my idea and for the current ruleset, which gives one ban. I also highly doubt that we will ever see a system with more than one ban.

In my experience so far, it's VERY strong... I'm not sure though, it'd be great if someone could actually try it in a high/top level tournament and see if it works out for them.

It does work, unless they mess up and shoot themselves out of the barrel in the wrong direction and get punished.

 

[-ACE-]

against which chars? cause for starters for alotta characters if u let jiggs get the lead on kongo ur doing it wrong lol.

whaaaaaaaat? Jiggs has one of the best and quickest bait/punish games out of any character. Sometimes you can't help jiggs having the lead.

 

[BigWenz]

whaaaaaaaat? Jiggs has one of the best and quickest bait/punish games out of any character. Sometimes you can't help jiggs having the lead.

well i never have this problem since i play doc and fox. fox can runaway so easily on kongo it aint even funny, and doc v jiggs so much goodness for doc. Jiggs cant go up and down very quickly and thats where kongo gives the advantage.

edit: ull have to excuse my bias as i play against a jiggs all the time, but as a result i feel that match up has been overexaggerated waay 2much. Maybe im just that comfortable vs jiggs but i still feel that keeping the lead vs jiggs is not as hard as u say it is.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I guess you missed that. And you're arguing against my use of the word "often" because you contested the part of my statement which contained that stipulation. You're acting like I said "always".

Oh, sorry.

I have school right now, do you mind if I finish the list in about 7 hours?

RAINBOW CRUISE:
Fox vs. Falco
Falco vs. Falco
Sheik vs. Sheik
Falco vs. Sheik
Marth vs. Sheik
Marth vs. Marth
Peach vs. Peach
Jigglypuff vs. Jigglypuff
Marth vs. Jigglypuff

I also highly doubt that we will ever see a system with more than one ban.

I don't see why not :/

Is the community really that stubborn?

 

[-ACE-]

well i never have this problem since i play doc and fox. fox can runaway so easily on kongo it aint even funny, and doc v jiggs so much goodness for doc. Jiggs cant go up and down very quickly and thats where kongo gives the advantage.

It's still not easy for Fox. Even at the highest level of play Fox only has a slight advantage on jiggs. I'm also not buying Doc having an advantage on Jiggs at KJ.

Oh, sorry.

I have school right now, do you mind if I finish the list in about 7 hours?

RAINBOW CRUISE:
Fox vs. Falco
Falco vs. Falco
Sheik vs. Sheik
Falco vs. Sheik
Marth vs. Sheik
Marth vs. Marth
Peach vs. Peach
Jigglypuff vs. Jigglypuff
Marth vs. Jigglypuff

Ok, give me MANY examples of situations where stages that are both currently legal and make a disadvantaged matchup even worse would not be banned when both players had multiple bans. And you'd better give me enough to warrant arguing against my use of the word "often".

You missed something again lol. You are posting dittos and a lot of matchups that are at least close to even so far. It doesn't mean much if you're sheik and get taken to RC by Fox, in comparison to being Ganon and getting taken to RC by Fox.

I don't see why not :/

Is the community really that stubborn?

LOL yes.

 

[BigWenz]

It's still not easy for Fox. Even at the highest level of play Fox only has a slight advantage on jiggs. I'm also not buying Doc having an advantage on Jiggs at KJ.



LOL yes.

i should have been more clear. doc vs jiggs on kongo is even imo. Fox vs jiggs is easy if the fox decides to runaway. Especially on kongo. I played rasitilin at P5 and he was telling me as jiggs he'd rather have a somewhat of a smaller stage since it leaves less room to runaway. Hell he banned dreamland against me. Point being, is that it really is not that hard to runaway from jiggs and its more advantagous to do so, especially if ur fox.

 

[-ACE-]

Well I'm not buying that doc vs jiggs is even on KJ either lol. Raistlin banning DL is just a personal preference, you won't see many other jiggs mains doing that. Jiggs has the ability to shut down camping if she's smart (I can shut down Fox's camping with Ganon on most stages, and jiggs is like, 10x more agile due to her insane aerial mobility). And if you think jiggs has trouble with a campy fox, think about slower characters (3/4 of the cast). Definitely part of the reason I continue to argue this stupid **** lol

 

[Divinokage]

i should have been more clear. doc vs jiggs on kongo is even imo. Fox vs jiggs is easy if the fox decides to runaway. Especially on kongo. I played rasitilin at P5 and he was telling me as jiggs he'd rather have a somewhat of a smaller stage since it leaves less room to runaway. Hell he banned dreamland against me. Point being, is that it really is not that hard to runaway from jiggs and its more advantagous to do so, especially if ur fox.

Im sorry but your experiences and bias are not always the real truth about the matchups and how they should be played. I actually prefer KJ has a valid counter-pick for me against any matchup, to me the stage is not broken.. it actually helps Ganon A LOT. I don't think anyone would be able to time me out or out camp me honestly. So what does that say? It says I'm also sticking with my own preferences and is not the real truth but my own truth. However, on some stages no matter what you do.. you will die in 2 seconds without getting anything back.. Like on Mute City.. I've lost to Peachs that are worst than me there, I've also lost to Jigglypuff players every single time on this stage. I know KJ is hell for Marth, theres close to 0% of him winning. And also Brinstar, to me it's basically an auto-win vs anyone. What does that say about all those stages? It means that giving an auto-win against ANY matchup should not happen in competitive play because it's simply not competitive anymore.. How can you hope to fight without having any chance to win? It shouldn't happen, you should always have at least some chances to win.

 

[TheDekuNut]

man when are they just gonna release a tournament addition DLC map pack to this game, i mean really?

"sakurai should really make a sequel its been like 10 years." - Azy
Da Dav3 is hilarious

and dude jiggs using rollout on mute city : P. characters with any lag on their recovery get whooped. just watch King's "Rollout"

 

[-ACE-]

If nothing else, because I don't have a perfect stage list in mind, I like the coin flip or RPS idea for choice of port/first strike.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You missed something again lol.

God, I am dumb >_>

You are posting dittos and a lot of matchups that are at least close to even so far. It doesn't mean much if you're sheik and get taken to RC by Fox, in comparison to being Ganon and getting taken to RC by Fox.

What exactly DO you want me to list then?

And why?

Because I really don't get it.

Why do the stages have to be currently legal? Why do they have to make disadvantaged match-ups worse? What does that have to do with anything?

It seems like we are just going off on a tangent here, my point is that as long as a stage doesn't have a broken tactic that can be easily abused (like circle camping on Temple), the stage is fine as long as there are enough stage bans to accommodate for the unwinnable match-ups.

 

[Redd]

If nothing else, because I don't have a perfect stage list in mind, I like the coin flip or RPS idea for choice of port/first strike.

Another cool idea I just recently saw was both players picking G&W and higher hammer number wins. I guess it's a little more random since there are 1-9?

 

[Divinokage]

Another cool idea I just recently saw was both players picking G&W and higher hammer number wins. I guess it's a little more random since there are 1-9?

LOL thats brilliant, thats the first time I hear something like that lol. Even if it's 1-9, both players have equal chances to win.

 

[LatexRhombus]

Another cool idea I just recently saw was both players picking G&W and higher hammer number wins. I guess it's a little more random since there are 1-9?

cool idea, but way too slow

 

[Divinokage]

cool idea, but way too slow

Slow? It's probably as fast as setting up a RPS.

 

[Kuro Neko]

PS does seem more neutral than FD in some ways.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

imo dsr should only apply to bo3 sets. in best of 5/7s (late in tourny) the players adapt better and faster.

 

[-ACE-]

God, I am dumb >_>



What exactly DO you want me to list then?

And why?

Because I really don't get it.

Why do the stages have to be currently legal? Why do they have to make disadvantaged match-ups worse? What does that have to do with anything?

1. Because I am saying the current stage list is flawed (or at least there is room for improvement) when it comes to fairness in true competition.
2. Falco/sheik on any neutral vs falco/sheik on RC. It changes matchups drastically, and this I can provide numerous examples of.
3. It is one of my main points as to why the current stage list could use improvement when it comes to fairness in true competition.

I don't want you to list anything, I just called you out when you challenged my statement inappropriately.

 

[LatexRhombus]

i just don't undersatnd what you think is inherently wrong with matchups being differnt on different stages, isn't that a given? isn't that part of the fun of the game?

of course the matchups are different on different stages, please stop making that argument.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm not making that argument (please pay attention? lol). Matchups change between neutrals, and not so-neutrals (PS, FoD, and also FD for some). Then you have stages that distort matchup outcomes drastically. I just happen to draw the line after the main 6 that hardly anyone has a big problem with (BF, FD, YS, PS, DL, FoD). I don't hate KJ and BS with a passion though, but I can't stand RC/Corneria/GG/JJ/MC/PF/HYRULE lol or what have you.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So... Despite me having given reasons that more stage bans/Hybrid Stage List Striking will allow the depth of Rainbow Cruise in fair match-ups and make sure that it isn't picked in un-balanced match-ups, you are happy to stick your fingers in your ears and say: "I don't like it, la la la, ban ban ban"?

 

[LatexRhombus]

I'm not making that argument (please pay attention? lol). Matchups change between neutrals, and not so-neutrals (PS, FoD, and also FD for some). Then you have stages that distort matchup outcomes drastically. I just happen to draw the line after the main 6 that hardly anyone has a big problem with (BF, FD, YS, PS, DL, FoD). I don't hate KJ and BS with a passion though, but I can't stand RC/Corneria/GG/JJ/MC/PF/HYRULE lol or what have you.

yea, i know what you're saying, i just don't think "matchup distortion" is a significant issue...its not like the matchups are meant to only be one certain way; stages have a big impact on any matchup which i dont think is a bad thing...to me at least, it adds more depth and is more fun

and lol @ hyrule =P

 

[-ACE-]

Grim, you are the only person arguing for extra stage bans. I like your idea but I firmly believe it will never happen. Seriously, go grab a cold one or something and forget about it.

I never made this thread to argue, it was just a poll. I should have just made it about the choice of port vs first strike. Oh well. I can't come up with a stage/rule list that I feel is perfect so whatever lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm fine with that

Sorry for arguing in your thread.

 

[Redd]

cool idea, but way too slow

Pick G&W, start match, hit side-b. (takes 10-15 seconds total)

RPS: OH HAI ON SHOOT OR NO? OKAY OKAY IM READY.

The time constraint here is irrelevant lol they both take under 20 seconds. Just something to keep things fresh, yeah?

 

[-ACE-]

I like your idea redd =)

 

[Divinokage]

yea, i know what you're saying, i just don't think "matchup distortion" is a significant issue...its not like the matchups are meant to only be one certain way; stages have a big impact on any matchup which i dont think is a bad thing...to me at least, it adds more depth and is more fun

and lol @ hyrule =P

Yes getting an auto-win is more depth and more fun, grats.

 

[Jonas]

Ugh I hate RPS. It's like my opponent and I never have an agreement on when to throw (either "1, 2, 3, GO!" or "1, 2, THREE!") and I always seem to be out of sync with my opponent, opening my hand at weird times
It also seems weird that we should play a game to decide who gets to pick first in ANOTHER GAME. The G&W idea is interesting haha.

 

[-ACE-]

the way this would work, 2 opponents could decide on coin flip, RPS, or G&W. Any of these would be fine.


Hell, you could even both pick luigi and see who got the first misfire doing side-b simultaneously. lol