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New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

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Anti Guy

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Introduction

Some time ago, Anti Guy noticed a topic shift in the original thread for the newly revealed clone engine - what was originally conversation about the engine's implementation and limitations turned to character speculation, charged with colorful discussion. By popular request in that thread, Anti Guy starting this new thread to just discuss and publicly vote upon possible character choices, while leaving the original thread for discussing the clone engine itself. Furthermore, the OP in this thread can be kept updated so as not to turn into a endless repetitive cycle of arguments and lists because newcomers had not seen the information posted in the many pages previously (as seen in the former thread). As such, everyone is welcome to contribute their own information to be included on original post.

It should be noted, however, that after several months of monitoring this thread on his own, Anti Guy has passed down the responsibility of updating the OP and tracking the voting process to users JCOnyx, Shin F., Solbliminal, and Friesnchip. While Anti Guy is cooperating with these people, he is no longer tallying votes- for those of you who would like to place your votes, need any assistance, or have any questions, please refer to one of the people on this list.

Subjective vs. Objective

One of the main points to keep in mind when discussing a potential character is that there is a difference between who you want and who you like, and ultimately what most P:M players like and what will likely be happening. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but make sure you understand that stating your opinion is only for influencing others. If they're not convinced, then stop after you've stated all you need to say; we don't need back and forth flame wars. That's the subjective part.

The objective side of the argument is ultimately who's in favor of a character (after all the arguments have been said and done), and how much of the community is or would be behind that idea too. This should be the ultimate measuring stick for who'd be a good candidate for the PMBR to consider in future versions. Please try not to mix up your personal opinions when discussing the objective end of all this speculation. Data (i.e. polling) is your best friend here. Speaking of which...


Unofficial Polling (READ THE RULES)



So that we have better evidence of what the community is thinking, a tally of votes will be kept to debate which characters are most desired for the five remaining clone slots. The following are the voting rules:


1. Each unique poster can vote up to 5 characters. They will be tallied for 1 point each. Note: users may not change these five votes unless for some reason that character becomes disqualified. Pick your votes wisely. You don't need to use all your votes at once, you may always wait and add them in later.

2. Each unique poster can then vote for any number of characters after that. They will be tallied for 1/2 point each. The idea is that if you had to choose 5, you'd give more weight to those.

3. Each unique poster can down vote any number of characters. Only down vote if you're actually AGAINST the character being in. If you're indifferent, just don't vote on that character. This will be also be tallied on a separate count rather than subtracting against the up votes. This is to differentiate actual opposition from just indifference to a character. Note: From now on, it is required to give an explanation (it doesn't have to be long, it can be brief as long as it's reasonable) for all anti votes. Otherwise they won't be tallied. This is to try to keep things honest and not use these votes to play the numbers.

4. That means characters you're indifferent on... just don't vote. You can say if you're indifferent to the idea though, and we can tally that so we have a more complete picture.

5. To avoid legal issues with Smash 4, Newcomers from that game (such as Little Mac and Palutena) will not be used for the Clone Engine. Likewise, characters that don't appear in Brawl ARE NOT ELIGIBLE.

6. Do not vote based on what's possible. While you should keep that in mind at all times, that's a separate issue, and the voting should be based solely on your subjective feeling about the character itself, not your interpretation of how difficult it would be for the PMBR (because they don't need to us to tell them that).


This way we can have a good barometer on what the community is thinking. Because unlike SSB4, the PMBR is here and they might actually listen. And this game is for the community. So if a character is only attracting 50% popularity or less, it will probably not be worth the PMBR's effort.


Things to keep in mind:

1. Any quality character would take at least 700 hours to make, especially because of animations. That's why clones/partial clones are the most appealing. Despite a lot of people's distaste for clones, this seems to be huge pro for any character to be in P:M

2. P:M is not an official Smash. So characters that would not be possible for SSB Wii/3DS might just be possible in this game due to fan support and maybe the cloneability.

3. Adding a new character with the clone engine takes a ton of work, so they better be well worth the effort. For that reason, obscure characters that have no deserving reason to join the cast, or characters that are not as important as others in their own series (i.e. any random Sonic character that's not Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, or even Shadow).

4. This is a Nintendo game, so third party characters shouldn't be getting that much attention regardless (i.e. no need to have 3 Sonic characters). Also copyright/C&D issues. As stated by the P:M team: characters that haven't appeared in Brawl in some manner have no chance, so don't even mention them.

5. According to P:M staff member cmart, current PSAs won't affect character chances because regardless, a character will be built up from scratch.

6. Please remember, this is a MOD. NOT SSB4. When you vote or make arguments for characters, realize there are limitations. PLEASE keep in mind the amount of work that it would take to make a character, and if it is even possible. Saying Character X can use so and so items from his game is counterproductive if that can't be done!


Rating the characters

There are 7 clone slots, two of which are already done with Roy and Mewtwo. It is important to remember the possibility that not all of them will be used, though. So with that said, below is a summarization of some of the characters that have been mentioned by at least more than one person, as well as a grading of how good a candidate they are for the P:M team. There are two categories and each with three grades (A-C):

Value - how much value do they have as a character, as a mascot, as an iconic character of their series, etc... Basically how much they deserve to be in Smash

A: Iconic character or brings a lot to the table

B: Fairly important character... or an iconic character, but in a saturated series (Pokémon, Mario).. or has some other minor flaw

C: Not very important


Effort - how much work would it take to make this character? Keep in mind that animations are probably the biggest part, so if borrowing animations is possible, that reduces the time. This rating is all estimated though...

A: As easy as can get. Pretty much a clone, or very simple animations. Having an established moveset helps too.

B: Will take some work and creativity. Significant animation work

C: Need to develop from scratch and take a ton of time. Is this even worth it??


The List of Clone Engine Candidates


Paper Mario (Paper Mario)
Like Game & Watch, but color
Value - B - Main character of the Paper Mario series. Is another version of Mario, who has quite a saturated series, but at the same time is different enough from Mario.
Effort - ? - Can be cloned off Mr. Game & Watch, but will also require a lot of his own moves.

We'll just send you to 820's post for this one:
REASONS:
Paper Mario hasn't been a very popular suggestion so far, but he should be. He's been the star of four popular games, games that are extremely distinct from the rest of the Mario franchise. (If you changed the characters, you really wouldn't be able to tell it was ever a Mario game.) At this point, the Paper Mario series is it's own entity, much more so than the difference between Link vs. Toon Link. So really, Paper Mario would represent his own series. The only knock I can think of is, for people who believe he doesn't qualify for his own series, that the Mario series is "over-represented" , but that simply isn't true. Wario, Yoshi, and the Kongs all represent their own series, so Mario only has 4 true representatives. This, in comparison to the seven that Pokemon has, is reasonable. So he would still only be the fifth true Mario rep, which is a fairly small number for the largest franchise in the game.

BUILDING BASE/CREATION:
Paper Mario has a unique, 2D design that would make basing him of his plumper, 3D counterpart impossible. Luckily, we have our own 2D smasher that would serve as a perfect template: Mr. Game and Watch. In fact, it's almost eerie how well Paper Mario would work as a GW clone. I mean... does this remind you of anything?
Paper Mario could be a heavier, stronger Game and Watch, with quite a bit of variation in moves of course. There's already some pretty nice looking Paper Mario models over GW in the BrawlVault. The only real projectiles he would need could be easily based off of existing articles, like fireballs/fireflower effects
Plus his model wouldn't take too much work I'd imagine, and his animations would be somewhat limited due to the nature of his design.

GAMEPLAY:
As I touched on briefly, he could have some attacks based off of GW (mostly an hammer based attacks, and other attacks such as f-smash could be re-done with a hammer) as well as incorporate parts of Mario (fireballs with an upward arc a-la GW's frying pan? A mix of GW and Mario's up-smash?) Plus all of the items, attacks and helpers from his games. (Parakarry recovery? Bombette grenades?) I'm not sure what's entirely possible, but the PMBR has quite a bit to go off of from the games, and I'm sure they could create a unique but still technically feasible move-set.

CONCLUSION:
Paper Mario has the legacy, clone-ability, and uniqueness that makes him a better choice for Project M than many characters. The PMBR could realistically do him justice, and he has a definite place in Nintendo history that this incarnation would be worth it. Overall, I hope this post makes more people reconsider Paper Mario, as I believe he would be a fantastic addition to Project M.

Pros
-Can represent the Paper Mario series
-Cloneable from Mr. Game & Watch. Might be fairly simple to do.

Cons
-Yet another Mario character
-Might have technical limitations



Rawk Hawk (Paper Mario)
The wrestler you've always wanted~!


Value - C - Popular side character from a series that has yet to have the main character playable, unless Paper Mario is counted as mainstream. Then he just becomes another Mario rep.
Effort - C - His wrestling styled moveset would likely require a lot of animation and coding effort to accomplish. Though he could likely borrow some animations from characters like Bowser and D.K.

Character Breakdown - Rawk Hawk appeared in Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door and is the arena champion of the Glitz Pit. He is an arrogant, cocky, and the trash talking wrestler stereotype you would expect him to be. He would take great inspiration from actual wrestlers like Macho Man Randy Savage and Hulk Hogan. His fighting style could very likely revolve around grappling and classic wrestling attacks, like drop kicks and body slams.

And since Star Man (An original Nintendo Wrestling character) didn't appear in Brawl, Rawk Hawk very well could have an alt costume inspired by him. Another good example of how some of his attacks might work is the Flying Man assist from Smash Bros 4.


Rawk Hawk can also take cues from characters like Zangief and other grappler type fighter characters.

Pros - He would bring an interesting playstyle and is fairly popular.

Cons- Secondary character from one game in a series without a rep / Further saturation of the Mario series.


Toad (Super Mario)
Wants to be more than a B move
Value - B - Classic Mario character that has either been just a typical member of his species or a major playable character.
Effort - B - Can possibly be a Mario clone.

Background - There is really no need to explain who Toad is. But as for his achievements, he was one of the playable main characters in SMB2, NSMB Wii, and the newly released Super Mario 3D World. He was also the sole primary character in Wario's Woods. There are probably others games as well, but you all get the point. One of the problems with Toad is also that he is quite generic. In NSMB Wii, he's one of two toads. But at the same, that hasn't stopped Yoshi much, either? The main issue with Toad is that he's already Peach's B move. It is unknown if he's going to be a character in SSB4, but given his role as Peach's B move there again, it's unlikely. For Project M though, it might not matter as much because Peach's B move can always be reassigned (or she can flash out Toadsworth instead).

Moveset - Most likely can be a clone of Mario, with some different specials, and a few different smash attacks that can involve using his massive head instead. See here for more.

Pros
-Major Mario character
-Cloneable
-Has a sizeable support/fanbase
-Easy to port sounds for

Cons
-Another Mario character
-Generic Mario species that's not really a unique character of his own at times.


Waluigi (Mario Bros / Wario?)
WAAAHHH!! When will he appear in anything OTHER than a party game!?
Value - C - Never the main character of any game, the main villain of any game, or even a major supporting character of any game... but WAAAHH!!
Effort - B - There has been an excellent PSA made. If that can be done, the PMBR can do it too.

Background - Everyone knows who this character is, yet he's easily one of the most divisive characters for speculation, and for what it's worth, that's a big con. It's not to the PMBR's benefit to spend a lot of time working on a character that at most half of the community would enjoy. HOWEVER, Waluigi has been getting a lot of work done outside of the PMBR, by Marioking64 (see his videos) and KingJigglypuff, and that can be used as somewhat of an inspiration for a moveset.

Pros
-Has one of the most developed PSA's out there that can be used for inspiration -- Check this out!
-Adds a little completion to the roster to give Wario a counterpart

Cons
-Very divisive character
-Does not have any major role in the Mario games to earn him a spot


Ashley (Wario Ware)
She's the greatest witch you'll ever meet~!

Value - B - A very popular character from a series without another rep.
Effort - C - Would require a lot of work to make unique, but could probably barrow some animations or not require a lot of difficult ones.

Character Breakdown- Ashley is a young witch in training who works with her young little demon friend, Red. She first appeared in WarioWare: Touched! and has since become one of the more requested characters for Smash 4, ultimately appearing as an assist trophy. She focuses on all types of dark magic, but ends up in silly situations where it doesn't go as planned. Her playstyle could revolve around various magics of the Nintendo franchises, like Zelda, Fire Emblem, Golden Sun, and so on. She could also spawn various Nintendo references, like NES character sprites or GBA character sprites.

Pros - From a series that only has one rep. Would do better justice to the series she is representing. Fairly popular
Cons - Would require a lot of effort in her moveset to make her unique.


Pichu (Pokémon)
Because he's a veteran
Value - C - As more and more Pokémon get added, Pichu's value drops and drops.
Effort - A - Pichu already has an established moveset to work off of from Melee, and he is very similar to Pikachu.

Background/Reasons: The only other Melee clone still in contention. He is a melee veteran, and can (definitely) use a moveset overhaul, but unlike Roy and Mewtwo, there has never been a huge demand for his return to Brawl. But now that Roy and Mewtwo are out of the bag, some people have been getting more vocal in wanting him back. Another main argument against him is that he's in a super-saturated series, which after Mewtwo has SEVEN characters. A big question to consider is if it's worth the PMBR's time... "What will everyone's reaction be if we announce Pichu? 'Oh, great, Pichu -- the last clone I wanted,' would be the majority, and we just spent 700 goddamn hours making this fur ball." One thing is for sure; Pichu is very controversial.

Moveset - His moveset would be based on his one from Melee, duh. But it'd probably be revamped to be much better while still having the self-injuring electrical attacks.

Pros
-Straightforward to make
-Melee veteran
-Unique gimmick lets PMBR be creative with making the character actually viable

Cons
-Extremely controversial
-Seven slots are already used for Pokémon series.


Pokémon Trainer / Red (Pokémon)
If he could fight on his own...
Value - A/B - Brawl character and Pokémon protagonist that couldn't make the cut for Project M 3.0
Effort - C - Would need to be made from scratch

Background - Ever since the PT Pokémon were split up and made their own characters, the Pokémon Trainer has been nowhere to be seen. Some have called for his return to P:M as his own fighter. Some people may think that's how it should've always been -- the trainer himself fighting.

Moveset - His moveset would probably be a very basic puncher/kicker, but with specials unique to what he could do in Pokémon. Maybe throw rocks from the Safari Zone, or ride his bicycle (stealing Wario's move). One of the best options would be for him to throw a Poke ball (the item) -- the only problem with that is that it's probably too strong and that there's crazy variance to the Pokémon that come out.

Pros
-Technically already in Brawl, but needs to make a comeback in P:M

Cons
-The few things special to PT might be limited by what's available to the modders.
-Seven slots are already used for Pokémon series.


Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong)
The only other Kong to have her own game
Value - A - Multiple appearances, had her own game. DK series has a small roster.
Effort - C - Can be cloned off Diddy, but would need significant work to incorporate her ponytail.

Background - For those who didn't know, she was the secondary character in Donkey Kong Country 2 and then the main character in Donkey Kong Country 3. The only other DK character that has a legitimate spot for contention is King K. Rool. The big problem with him is that he's not really cloneable and should require his own moveset. On the side of less work, and Dixie has been a more popular choice.

Moveset - Her moveset would be cloned off Diddy, but many of her moves would involve her hair. The biggest question is if that's even possible to throw in these extra "limbs" for her and still make things work.

Pros
-Major DK character
-Cloneable (From Diddy)
-Lots of support from fans

Cons
-Difficult to animate her prehensile ponytail


King K. Rool(Donkey Kong)
The main villain of Donkey Kong
Value - A - Main villain of the DK series. Quite popular
Effort - C - Has a bunch of unique moves that would require some serious work

Background - King K. Rool is the main antagonist of Donkey Kong series, often going by different names and themes (Kaptain K. Rool, Baron K. Roolenstein, King Krusha K. Rool, etc.), so he's quite versatile and of course, quite a major character.

Moveset - It's been suggested that K. Rool can use Dedede as a base. However, Dedede is a little too unique for K. Rool, starting with the floating and the hammer. While K. Rool has used a blunderbuss, it does not work at all like a hammer. It's been suggested that he can toss Kremlings instead of Waddle Dees, but that seems far-fetched. K. Rool has a whole host of unique moves, including shooting cannonballs, using his blunderbuss as a jet, and throwing his crown, to name a few. Unfortunately, these moves could be too unique to be implemented in a mod.

Pros
-Major DK villain

Cons
-Very unique moveset that is very difficult to implement


Skull Kid (Legend of Zelda)
Recurring character and villain of Majora's Mask
Value - B - Appeared as the main enemy in one Zelda game, and appeared in two others (Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess)
Effort - C - Not a clone, so will need to be made completely from scratch.

Background - While Majora's Mask is getting older and older, it still remains a popular fan favorite. Now that Young Link is probably out of the picture, no one in the lineup represents MM in particular. Skull Kid was brought up because he's one of the few Zelda characters that appears in multiple games and has the distinction of being the main villain.

Moveset - His moveset would be mostly left up to interpretation. It would be a trickster-styled moveset though, with warping around and possibly using dummies borrowed from his TP incarnation. Whether or not he can use his mask to attack or grab is up to the limitations of what the animators can do.

Pros
-Fairly popular
-Has the potential for pretty distinctive gameplay compared to other characters

Cons
-We already have quite a few Zelda characters in the roster already
-Will need to be made from scratch, probably with voice work too.


Tetra (Legend of Zelda)
(Toon Zelda not included)
Value - A/B - Major character in the Wind Waker timeline of Zelda
Effort - B - Can be made somewhat clone-like.

Background - Tetra appeared in a bunch of games, including Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, and Four Swords Adventures. Note that this entry is just for Tetra alone. If she were to be combined with Toon Zelda, then that would be two separate slots. You're free to vote for Toon Zelda too, but realize that fact, and don't combine them into one vote.

Moveset - Her moveset can probably be based off Sheik and/or Toon Link. She'd definitely have bombs, and then she can add other piratey things or even steal a few unused weapons from Link like a grappling hook.

Pros
-Fairly popular
-Major Zelda character
-Can benefit from cloning a bunch of moves from Toon Link

Cons
-We already have quite a few Zelda characters in the roster already
-If together with Toon Zelda, would take up two slots


Toon Zelda (Legend of Zelda)
Apparently the lesser half
Value - B - A major character, but one that already exists in another form. Also from a well-repped series.
Effort - A - Can be a direct Clone of Zelda with modified size and properties.

Background - The other half to Tetra, and sometimes her own character, Toon Zelda has appeared in numerous games - even as Link's companion for Spirit Tracks. Note that this is only the entry for Toon Zelda, not Tetra. These character would take two slots together, so they must be voted for individually.

Moveset - Toon Zelda can easily be a clone of Zelda with only modified sizes and properties, although she may require a new down special if she's not paired with Tetra.

Pros
-An easy clone
-Major character in The Legend of Zelda series
-Could be paired with the more unique Tetra

Cons
-From a well-repped series
-May require two slots if paired with Tetra


Young Link (Legend of Zelda)
Because every chain needs at least three Links
Value - C - There are already two Links in the game.
Effort - A - His moveset can be a super-easy clone of either existing Link.

Background - The younger variation of the protagonist of Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. A veteran of the Smash series who was replaced by his spiritual successor, Toon Link.

Moveset - His moveset can easily be cloned from Link or Toon Link. Thoughts on how to separate him have included changing the properties of his arrows (Ice Arrows, or possibly cycling through Fire/Ice/Light), and having him make use of his masks from Majora's Mask. The problem with the latter idea is that transforming characters require multiple slots. This could be gotten around if the masks only provided stat changes and not new movesets entirely.

Pros
-A Melee veteran
-Would need relatively little work
-Has voice and sounds effects already made

Cons
-Already has a spiritual successor in Toon Link
-Two variations of Link already exist



Black Shadow (F-Zero) and Ganondorf(Legend of Zelda)
A two-in-one package where the current Falcon-clone Ganondorf will be reskinned to his arch nemesis Black Shadow, and the clone slot will be used to recreate Ganondorf using available models
Value - A - Many people have wanted a true-to-Ganondorf Ganondorf, and while not as many, people have also asked for more F-Zero representation.
Effort - B - Ganondorf will need all new animations and projectiles.

Black Shadow - Black Shadow is Captain Falcon's arch nemesis, first appearing in F-Zero X. F-Zero is actually a pretty sizeable franchise, with at least 5 games, more than Star Fox (3 characters) and Mother (2 characters), yet it only has 1 character. If it were to have another, there are 3 main candidates: Samurai Goroh (Falcon's rival from the very first game), Blood Falcon (his clone), and Black Shadow. Samurai Goroh would require a little more work. Blood Falcon is already a costume for Falcon, and he doesn't add much. Black Shadow, on the other hand, fits the villain role, and due to his dark and evil character, perfectly fits the playstyle of the current Ganondorf, down to the shadow side-effects. And of course, he's significant in the story.

Ganondorf - Fans of the series have been disappointed at Ganondorf being a clone of Captain Falcon because that is not how his character works in the Zelda games. While Captain Falcon has never been seen outside his car (allowing the developers to be creative with his moveset), Ganondorf HAS. He's either using magic (OoT) or swords (WW, TP) when fighting Link.

In general, the most opposed to this idea are players who like Ganondorf just the way he is and can't see him in any other form (despite him being much different in his actual games)

Moveset - Ganondorf would probably have to have a combination of attacks borrowed from other characters. The most common move requested is his electric ball attack from OoT (neutral B - chargeable like in the game). Like Zelda, the rest of his moves can be creative. Perhaps a down B could be a chargeable attack where he raises his fist in front of his face, charges, and then releases a blast from the the Triforce of Power, knocking everyone in a radius back. Otherwise, he's a character with a lot of room for creativity.

Pros
-Relatively easy to implement - part of it is just a texture reskinning, the other part is using a fully established model and giving it a new moveset and animations.
-Can rectify one of the most complained about clone implementations
-Gives F-Zero a much needed character

Cons
-Resistance to changing Ganondorf despite being able to use the same character with a different name and textures.
-Will have to create Ganondorf moveset from scratch. He has some established moves to be used for inspiration.


Samurai Goroh (F-Zero)
The second most popular F-Zero character.
Value - A - F-Zero is quite a large franchise, and it only has one character. Samurai Goroh is the second most recognizable character from the series.
Effort - ? - Depends on whether he is a reskinned Ganondorf or a separate character

Background - Samurai Goroh is the second most popular F-Zero character, hands down. He was one of the four original racers, and as the series develops, he gets a lot of screen time as one of Falcon's many rivals. In Brawl, he appears as an assist trophy, where he attacks with his katana. In the game, he's very proficient with a katana. It might also be hinted he might be into sumo, given his Japanese theme, his body size, and how he slaps the signature screen (yes, his hand is his signature) during one of his victory interviews.

Moveset - Goroh has at least two routes. One route is that we can take the Black Shadow / Ganondorf ticket above and replace Black Shadow with Goroh. The shadowy effects could be replaced with flame effects (he does drive the Fire Stingray). Punches can be swapped with sumo-like palm strikes. His katana can be used to replace some punches (like the Warlock Punch or his smash attack). Going into dangerous territory, the B forward can replaced by a samurai quick slash, borrowed from Ike's quick slash side B, though the attack properties would also have to change.

Alternatively, Goroh can be a fresh character with clone elements. So perhaps a unique character with some borrowed sword attacks, coupled with his own brawling attacks... Here is an example of a moveset for him from later in this thread

Pros
-Most popular character (outside of Captain Falcon) from a large franchise with only one character
-Can be a "Captain Ganondorf" replacement so that Ganondorf can get his own moveset.
-Appears in the Brawl intro, but never actually got to fight

Cons
-As a separate character, would take a lot of work
-As a Captain Ganondorf replacement, does not fit as well as Black Shadow.


Ridley (Metroid)
But he's too big!
Value - A - Fits the villain role for the Metroid series, which isn't oversaturated either.
Effort - B - Has a model in game... but he's gonna be a lot smaller. There's quite a bit of custom PSA work which can be used for some inspiration, at least.

Background/Reasoning - First of all, the size argument is quite often used against Ridley, however Captain Olimar and Bowser are examples of characters that have had their sizes changed drastically. Ridley has been shown to be only slightly larger than Samus at times, so shrinking him is a possibility. Anyway, Ridley is a recurring boss in the Metroid series, and is the most frequent and recognized enemy in the series. Most people here know who Ridley is. After all, he is a boss in Brawl too... Oh yeah, and he just happens to be one of the most requested characters ever since the Brawl speculation days.

Moveset - The moveset would have to be pretty unique, but many of the moves can borrow inspiration from his boss fight moves (obviously scaled down). The PSA linked above gives an example of one way it can be done.

Pros
-Incredibly strong fit, already in Brawl
-Extremely popular

Cons
-Some people still think he's too big
-Difficult model and animations. PSA's have been done though, so it's possible.
-Moveset from scratch


Dark Samus (Metroid)
The other big Metroid villain
Value - A - Probably most significant character in the franchise after Samus and Ridley, being the main antagonist of the Metroid Prime series.
Effort - A - Very clone-like. Many animations can be reused. Also some PSA work done that can be used as an example.

Background - If Ridley doesn't get in, then Dark Samus is an excellent alternative for franchise villain. While she isn't in most of the games like Ridley, she was at least the main protagonist for the largely successful Metroid Prime series (and unlike many other characters that have been suggested, she lasts through multiple games).

Moveset - She can share many animations with Samus, but also has her own unique moves. She'd also be a very fast character (in contrast to Samus' slower playstyle), considering how she zips everywhere when you fight against her. Some animation changes can include making her move like Mewtwo (floating), as well as rolling like Mewtwo (disappearing and reappearing). Likewise, her projectiles would probably be weak scattershot Phazon attacks, in contrast to Samus' heavy-hitting ones. In general, her projectiles will probably be more energy-based rather than physical missiles like Samus'.

Here's an example of a Dark Samus PSA:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG2L-3cZLsY

Pros
-Super cloneable. Very easy to make a faster version of Samus
-Little issue acquiring sound clips
-Popular choice

Cons
-Inferior choice to Ridley as a reoccurring representative (but much more doable)


Krystal (Star Fox)
Because we need more Star Fox characters
Value - C - First appeared in a not-very popular Star Fox game during the series' slide
Effort - C - Would require her own moveset... unless you want ANOTHER clone.

Background - Krystal is frequently brought up as a character that deserves a slot. She's a supporting character in a handful of Starfox games, yet in P:M the series already has one teammate (Falco) and one rival (Wolf). However, should would sport an entirely different playstyle than her series' compatriots, which is something to be considered.

Pros
-Uses different weapons
-Female diversity?

Cons
-Supporting character of a saturated franchise in P:M
-Featured in Starfox titles of lower sales and popularity
-Would need a lot of work from models and animations to moveset to sounds


Slippy Toad (Star Fox)
Fooox! Get this guy off of me!
Value - C - A fourth character in a series that's well-repped, and he's a supporting character at best.
Effort - A - An incredibly easy clone.

Background - The technician of the Star Fox team, a large number of Star Fox's weapons and devices were invented by this toad.

Moveset - A clone of Fox or Falco with more Luigi-like physics is one possibility, but it's also been noted that he could make a convincing Samus or Snake clone.

Pros
-Very simple to create his moveset
-Possible clone of multiple characters
-Might be an interesting variation on Samus or Snake

Cons
-A supporting character in a saturated series
-Might be yet another variation of the Star Fox moveset. How many do we need?


Leon Powalski (Star Fox)
Star Wolf's Falco
Value - C - A supporting character from a saturated series.
Effort - B - Can be partially cloned from Wolf, but may require some new moves.

Background - An assassin and a member of Star Wolf who apparently has an old rivalry with Falco.

Moveset - He can be cloned in many ways from Wolf, but it's generally agreed that he could easily be Luigified into his own character. One well-received idea is that, being a Chameleon, he could make use of Brawl's invisibility (from Clear Brawl) in his moveset.

Pros
-An interesting and unique idea centering on his invisibility and assassin skills
-Many sources to pull voice work and sound effects from

Cons
-A supporting character in a saturated series.
-Might be yet another variation of the Star Fox moveset. How many do we need?


Masked Man/Claus (Mother)
Which name would it be?
Value - C - Another Mother character and a walking spoiler
Effort - A/B - Would obviously be cloned from Lucas

Discussion - http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...-thread-voting-results-updated.341479/page-28

Background - Claus, or the Masked Man, is one of the primary antagonists from Mother 3, and also (SPOILERS!) Lucas' brainwashed brother. His very existence would be a spoiler, and Sheik is often used as a counterargument to that. A counter-counter argument to that is Sheik, while an important character, her alternate identity isn't crucial to the story, while Claus' is. And then another argument to that is that it's pretty obvious the Masked Man is Claus. Whatever.

Moveset - Would probably be heavily based off of Lucas, and if possible, incorporating his cannon arm and sword (forward smash instead of the stick) would be bonuses.

Pros
-Easily cloneable
-Should remain silent, just like in the game. Makes sounds easy, at least as far as voices go.

Cons
-For a small series, Mother already has enough representation
-Walking spoiler


Ninten (Mother)
Isn't that Ness?

Value - B/C - Important to his own series, but the series is well-repped.
Effort - A/B - Could be an easy clone, or fairly original, depending on how he's handled. Model is an easy edit of Ness.

Background - The protagonist of the first game of the Mother series.

Moveset - Ninten's possibilities are pretty flexible. He can serve as either a direct clone of Ness and Lucas with small alterations to make him more unique, or as an entirely original character. One common idea brought up to make him unique is to have his attacks focus more on his weapons rather than his PSI, primarily his yoyo. He can also use PSI not yet used by Ness or Lucas, including PSI Quick Up, 4th-D Slip, Hypnosis, PK Beam, and PK Brain Cyclone. For more info on how this could be implemented, you can see this post. http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...results-3-15-14.341479/page-291#post-16518709

Pros
-An important character for his series, rounds out the protagonist trio
-Very flexible moveset possibilities - Could be cloned, luigified or original
-Can be a hybrid clone of Ness and Lucas, since attacks and animations between the two are easy to port to one another, with his own unique divergences

Cons
-From a well-repped series
-Can be considered to be extremely similar to Ness in appearance


Lyn (Fire Emblem)
A popular female FE lord

Value - B - Another sword user in a highly represented series (Fire Emblem). However, fairly popular, and is one of the top candidates if FE were to get another character, if not the top choice
Effort - C - Will need new animations.

Background - While not the main character of the US's first Fire Emblem game (that goes to Eliwood), Lyn is the first lord you get to play, and she's pretty popular. She also has a unique sword-style that can make her different than all the sword users. Also a bow user, so we might be able to vary her moveset up a bit.

Moveset - See here.

Pros
-One of the most popular FE lords
-Unique sword style differentiates her from other FE lords
-Female - diversity FTW

Cons
-Will require quite of bit of work, including custom sound effects
-Moveset must be designed from scratch.
-Yet another sword user
-Already have 3 Fire Emblem characters, and one of the clone spots goes to a FE character already


Hector (Fire Emblem)
Can't mention Lyn without mentioning her axe-wielding comrade lord from the same game

Value - C - Lyn is generally more popular. Eliwood is the main character, Lyn is the first lord, but Hector (while being the third lord) is probably the third main character and requires his mode to be unlocked. While still extremely important in his own game, in the broad scope of Smash Bros and all that is Nintendo, he's not that important.
Effort - C - From scratch, completely.

Background/Reason - The third lord of Fire Emblem (the Sealed Sword). You don't actually get to play his storyline - you unlock his mode after beating the game. There are two main reasons people want him: 1) "He has an axe!" (making him different than other characters) and 2) "He's my favorite lord!" (I'm not kidding). They are actually quite legit, but compared to the other applications here, they kind of pale in comparison. He doesn't have an assist trophy, and his moveset would be have to be even more built up from nothing. His main competition is Lyn, and that's a tough one to beat.

Pros
-The AXE

Cons
-Inferior to Lyn in terms of iconic weight/importance and possibly popularity
-Not very popular outside of Fire Emblem
-Will require a lot of work
-Already 3 Fire Emblem characters
-Moveset must be designed from scratch.


Micaiah (Fire Emblem)
The Silver-Haired Maiden
Value - B - Although she is one of the major characters of FE: Radiant Dawn, she's not one of the most liked protagonist of the series. But she would represent a new class from the FE series yet to be in PM, a mage and is the only protagonist to use only magic in the series so far.
Effort - A - Would be a great candidate for a Zelda clone, but working in tomes into her animations would require a bit more work then the simplest of clones.

Background - A light mage with a peculiar ability to heal wounds without tomes and the power to smite armored foes and paladins with her unique tome Thani. She is revered as the savior of Daein for freeing them from the oppressive rule of Begnion. Although she's the main protagonist, Ike also shows up as a lord for parts of the game and steals the spotlight. Her age and her past remain much a mystery throughout the game, but there is much more to her than first meets the eye.

Moveset - Quoted from Anti Guy
What makes her particularly appealing is that next to Dark Samus, she is the quintessential clone character by being based off Zelda. In fact, she'd also open up a little more flexibility by having a free Down B. For her Down B, I would suggest Nosferatu, which is a health-sapping spell, but very inaccurate. All her special moves would be very similar to Zelda, except using light effects for each one (probably very easy to do). Side B would probably be similar to the original Din's Fire to fit her playstyle. Speaking of which, her playstyle could potentially resemble a faster, more aggressive version of Zelda. This would actually be pretty unique as most of the magic/psychic characters (Zelda, Mewtwo, Ness, Lucas) are rather slow and defensive.

The difference between her and Zelda would be a lot like Captain Falcon and Ganondorf (with Zelda being slower, like Ganondorf). Micaiah isn't canonically fast in Radiant Dawn, but I have no doubts she'd be way more agile than Zelda (still fighting in a dress). Her moves can all be adjusted (power, speed, single-hit vs. multi-hit, knockback, etc) to give a completely different spin on Zelda's moveset, much like Ganondorf did to Falcon's. Just like how Ganondorf didn't inherit Falcon's knee, Micaiah wouldn't inherit Zelda's kicks, but she can make up for it elsewhere.

Pros
- Protaganist of FE: RD
- Originates from the Tellius Series which are some of the most well known FE games in the US
- Extremely Clonable
- Represents a class from FE not yet in PM (i.e. magic-user, instead of sword-user)

Cons
- Would be the second FE rep amongst the CE characters
- Some FE fans dislike her (most notably for being a "Mary Sue")


Andy (Advance Wars)
For a more detailed explanation of Advance Wars and the characters, read ChronoBound's post here.

Value - A - Most recurrent protagonist of an unrepresented major series (like Marth and Ike for Fire Emblem)
Effort - C - Would probably need to be made from scratch.

Background - Advance Wars is probably the biggest franchise without representation in Smash Bros. and Andy is the only main character to appear more than once (unlike Jake and Will, the two other protagonists). In Advance Wars, armies are commanded by COs, who have special powers and stat boosts for their armies. You pick your CO much like you pick your fighter in a fighting game. Initially, you start with Andy, Max, and Sami (from the same country, Orange Star) in the first game, with Andy being your initial character. In the first game, he is easily the main character, seen as a naive character whose idiocy exists mainly to give you a tutorial of the units and buildings. He has no special strengths or weaknesses (much like Mario), but he is a genius mechanic, and his special ability is to repair all the units on the field and give them a little boost.

Moveset - Being a commanding officer in an army game, some of Snake's moves may be a natural fit for Andy, although it makes more sense for him to fight using a wrench. Just like Captain Falcon doesn't really use the Blue Falcon and Fox doesn't use his Arwing, Andy doesn't necessarily have to use Advance Wars units.

Pros
-Would represent the largest franchise that isn't represented in Smash Bros

Cons
-Would need a lot of model work
-Would need custom sound effects
-Needs a lot of work to create from scratch


Sami (Advance Wars)
For a more detailed explanation of Advance Wars and the characters, read ChronoBound's post here.

Value - C - Secondary character of an unrepresented major series
Effort - B - Can be a Snake clone, but will still need quite a few changes.

Background - Sami is one of the Orange Star CO's in Advance War. A few missions into the first game, you get to choose a path where you either get to use her or Max for a few missions. She, along with the other characters, get larger roles in the sequels, where one of her main storylines is a hinted romance between her and a CO from Green Earth (another country), Eagle. Her main specialty is in infantry units. While her vehicles are weaker, her infantry are stronger, and more efficient, making her very adept at capturing cities very quickly...

Moveset - Given her infantry focus, Sami lends herself very much to being a clone of Snake. Although the Cipher might be a little weird, the other attacks can be easily translated and cloned.

Pros
-Would represent the largest franchise that isn't represented in Smash Bros
-Easily Snake cloneable

Cons
-Is a secondary character to a franchise that isn't even represented by its main character yet
-Would need a lot of model work
-Would need custom sound effects


Isaac (Golden Sun)
"..."
Value - A - Original protagonist of a popular Nintendo RPG and another fairly big franchise that is unrepresented.
Effort - C - Assist trophy model already exists at least

Background - The main character of Golden Sun, one of the main Nintendo RPG franchises, developed by Camelot. It has three games, with Isaac appearing in each one. Felix, who was the second main character in GS2, also has been requested, but there is absolutely no reason for him to be put in before Isaac -- unless the PMBR decide to put BOTH of them in (Felix as a clone). Isaac has seniority.

Moveset - Movesets with him can be pretty creative and based on his Psynergy abilities. Given that he mainly used swords in his game, that's pretty inevitable, but again he can have some kicks thrown in.

Pros
-Very strong fit.
-Represents a major unrepresented franchise
-The most popular character and least divisive

Cons
-Uses swords, but his moveset can be mixed up with Psynergy.
-Many Psynergy attacks may be difficult, if not impossible, to implement


Ray MK III (Custom Robo)
From that overlooked series a lot of people know about, but most people never played.

Value - A - Unrepped character from a series with five games, built already under an arena fighter setting.
Effort - B - Almost all of his animations can be built from existing character animations, but would require programming for certain unique moves.

Background - Custom Robo is a series often overlooked, but very much remembered by those who were active in the gaming community around the time of the Nintendo Gamecube's US release. Though the series had a late start across seas, the series has existed in Japan since the N64 days. The series was an underground hit, loved for its unique battle system and customization. In the story, the main character of each game at the beginning receives a Ray model Custom Robo to start out with as your standard model. These Custom Robos are used to compete in arena battles against others, often to earn new parts and Robos to customize and change your strategy to fit your play style. The battles are long range, tactical gun fights where players must use the stage to plan out their attacks wisely. Each Robo is armed with four special parts. Guns, Bombs, Legs, and Pods.

Unlike many gun combat based games, each of these types of parts (or weapons) contain vastly different properties from what you would expect. The Guns, as your primary weapon, all have unique properties in the way that they are used. Some Guns fire tri-shots that spread and lock in on opponents, others fire dragons and swords to emit explosive or piercing damage. The bombs are usually used for a high damaging move that is hard to pull off. Legs are to determine the type of mobility your Robo will have. And lastly, Pods are used as tactical placement items that often is used to control spacing with you and your opponent. Among these options, a lot of Custom Robos are able to air-dash, high-speed tackle a nearby enemy, and launch opponents.

Moveset - With a wide array of weapon types, Ray is best suited as a character built from someone with a lot of projectiles (Link, Samus, Snake, ect). Since he is nearly a pure range based fighter, almost all of his animations would be easy to build from existing characters, while still containing unique gameplay to set him apart from the cast. His projectiles will have different properties that will make his combos dependent on range rather than being up close. The trade-off being that he would struggle if he is caught in close range encounters.

Some moveset ideas here:

Pros
-Most recognized character of an unrepresented major series
-Inspiration could be pulled from the many weapons within the Custom Robo series for his moveset
-Need more robots

Cons
-Possibly too projectile heavy for the clone engine


Sukapon/Skapon (Joy Mech Fight)
The pink robot from Nintendo's first fighting game
Value - B - One of the Nintendo's few games to be represented in Smash, and it also happens to be Nintendo's first fighting game. Has a lot of game-introducing power to those unfamiliar with the game, similar to Ness, Marth/Roy, Ice Climbers, and Game & Watch.
Effort - C - Easy model, but difficult unique animations and skeletal structure (updated from Silentd00m and cmart)

Background - Joy Mech Fight was Nintendo's first traditional fighting game... but unfortunately it was one of those games that A) never made it to the US and B) came at the end of a console's lifespan (often a death sentence). The game itself played like Street Fighter II controls-wise, and all the robots had no joints, allowing it to be smooth even on the NES. Its storyline was a super rip-off from Mega Man, with an evil scientist making robots go crazy, and the good doc brings a non-combat robot, Skapon (whose main job is to entertain as a comedian) to fight and save the day. But given that the PMBR won't add Mega Man for copyright reasons, the rip-off is almost poetic if Skapon is added in lieu of Mega Man's absence.

Moveset - Skapon's moveset would be based on the moveset in his own game. It even helps that Joy Mech Fight has special moves, which he can base his off of. He doesn't have any true projectiles, but in the game he has two attacks (tondekee and konnan irahen) where he shoots his head forward. Another attack is where he launches himself forward in a rolling attack (rolling Skapon). The rest of his attacks are simple punches and kicks, and they can pretty much be borrowed from most of the current characters. Another oddity is that his walking animation is him spinning around (kind of like Rob's roll)

For a more detailed post on Skapon: see here

Pros
-Untouched franchise that can pay homage to Nintendo's first fighting game and also has the ability to expose players (like how many of us learned about Earthbound, Ice Climbers, Fire Emblem, Game & Watch, and more)
-Existing moveset from his original game to base moves off of
-Fitting Mega Man "replacement" (in spirit)
-Easy sounds effects

Cons
-Difficult animations
-Not very well known
-Joy Mech Fight is relatively obscure, Japanese only, and only has one game.


Balloon Fighter (Balloon Fight)
The pinnacle of aerial fighters
Value - B - Main character of an unrepresented franchise unlikely to get into future Smash games.
Effort - C - Would likely require his own unique moveset, although some normals using his limbs to attack could be borrowed from others.

Background - The titular character of Balloon Fight, it's rumored that he was considered as a retro fighter for Melee but was passed over in favor of the Ice Climbers.

Moveset - Many of his normal attacks can be cloned from other characters of similar stature, such as Mario or Luigi. His special moves may require a bit more effort. One idea that is fairly popular but incredibly complex or even impossible to code is that he might be able to change the number of balloons he uses at any given time to change his weight, floatiness and number of jumps. The more balloons, the more floaty and greater jumps. The fewer, the faster he falls. this dynamic would allow players to choose between good recovery and good combo game.

Pros
-Main character of a retro franchise
-Was reportedly considered for Melee
-No voice work needed

Cons
-Very complex moveset
-May need sound effects


Mach Rider (Mach Rider)
On his bike, or off it?
Value - B - The main character of Mach Rider, it's rumored that he was considered for Melee along with Balloon Fighter but lost out to Ice Climbers.
Effort - B - Could possibly be cloned from Captain Falcon or Wario.

Background - Another character who was rumored to be considered for Melee, he apparently was not chosen because there were problems getting him to be able to believably jump while riding his bike.

Moveset - There are a few ideas. One idea is that he could possibly be a Captain Falcon clone, since the two are racers never seen not riding their vehicles in their original game. another was to make him a clone of vBrawl's Wario, which would allow him a side-special with his bike and could still allow him to borrow animations from Captain Falcon. There has also been an idea to give him a chain in his moveset which he could use like a whip, possibly making him a Zero Suit Samus clone as well.

Pros
-The main character of an unrepresented franchise
-Many moveset possibilities, both cloned and unique

Cons
-Could be hard to animate if he's permanently on his bike


Saki Amamiya (Sin and Punishment)
The guy who I always thought was a girl
Value - A - Main character of a franchise with two games
Effort - C - Would require his own moveset.

Background - The main character of Sin and Punishment, originally a Japanese-exclusive on rails shooter game before it was brought over to the US by virtual console and then got its own sequel.

Moveset - He uses a lot of shooting and sword attacks... Animation-wise, this might actually be fairly hard to pull off, since there's no character that has a gun and sword in one weapon like Saki does. See here for more discussion on Saki's moveset. Currently the best line of thought is using ZSS as a base.

Pros
-Main character of a franchise with two games
-Very popular and commonly requested

Cons
-Very complex moveset that might be hard to pull off


Lip (Panel de Pon)
What would happen with Lip's Stick?
Value - B - Main character of an unrepped franchise, traditionally popular as a choice for Smash.
Effort - C - Might require her own unique moveset

Background - The main character of Panel de Pon, a puzzle game, Lip has been referenced for the past two Smash games in the form of her weapon as an item, Lip's Stick.

Moveset - The main idea behind Lip's moveset is that she would use her stick for most of her attacks, but her specials may reference the puzzle blocks from her games or others.

Pros
-From an unrepped series

Cons
-Would require a unique moveset


Takamaru (The Mysterious Murasame Castle)
The guy everyone thought would be in Smash 4 for sure
Value - B - The main character of an unrepped franchise that has seen increasing interest in recent years.
Effort - B - Can be cloned from a number of characters.

Background - The main character of The Mysterious Murasame Castle, he's also made appearances in recent games such as Captain Rainbow and Nintendoland.

Moveset - HIs moveset would revolve around the use of his katana and the unique power-ups from his game. For details, we'll send to to bksbestbwoy's posts.
http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...ting-more-votes.341479/page-412#post-17023785
http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...ting-more-votes.341479/page-477#post-17361465

Pros
-A retro character that has seen a lot of popularity due to his recent appearances
-Could possibly have a good base in one of the other sword users.

Cons
-May require a lot of work to implement his projectiles properly.


The Prince of Sablé (For the Frog the Bell Tolls)
A swordsman with a twist
Value - B - The main character of a series with one game.
Effort - B/C - Would require original moves, but many animations could be cloned from other sword users.

Background - The Sablé Prince is the main character of a Gameboy game titled For the Frog the Bell Tolls. He has the unique ability to transform into a Frog and a Snake.

Moveset - Many of his normal attacks can be cloned from other swordsmen and tweaked to fit his size. There's an upgrade in the original game that allows him to attack multiple times in a single turn, and it's been thought that this could carry over to his Smash incarnation, with each attack leading into an actual combo, where most characters only have this kind of attack on their jab. His specials can involve his transformations into his frog and snake forms, his Serpent Killer sword, and a number of other unique weapons and abilities from his game. For more details, please see this post.

Pros
-A retro character from an unrepped series.
-Many attacks can be cloned.

Cons
-Not a widely-known character
-Frog and Snake transformations, while not impossible, may prove difficult to implement.


Tom Nook (Animal Crossing)
Everyone's favorite loan shark
Value - A - Major Animal Crossing character.
Effort - C - Would probably have to be a unique character

Background - The shop owner and loan shark from Animal Crossing. As P:M cannot use the Villager because of SSB4, Tom Nook may actually work as a replacement Animal Crossing character. Interestingly, "IGN listed him as the ninth most-wanted character to appear in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. They describe him as devious, diabolical, and sinister, commenting that while he may not be a good fighter due to being from a video game without any fighting, they would enjoy seeing him get beaten up."

Moveset - He'd probably need to develop a unique moveset. Here's an example.

Pros
-Major Animal Crossing character, and AC doesn't have a character in P:M
-Alternative to the Villager
-Was popularly requested in Brawl

Cons
-Would need a lot of work from models and animations to moveset to sounds


Primid (Super Smash Bros.)
The Smash Rep we deserve, but not the one we need
Value - C - A representative of the Smash series itself. But... does it really need one?
Effort - A - All of his animations could be pulled directly from his SSE animations and tweaked to be brought up to fighter standards.

Background: The mook of the Subspace Emissary.

Moveset: Pulling from the various forms Primids come in, he can wield beam swords, fire, boomerangs, make himself metal, and more. For an interesting moveset based on his in-game attacks, we'll send you to Super_Primid's post.

Pros
-Would represent the Smash series itself
-Animations can be pulled from his existing animations in the SSE

Cons
-A generic minion already generally unpopular in the Smash fanbase

NOTE: FOR THE SONIC AND METAL GEAR CHARACTERS LISTED BELOW...
Third party characters should have less importance in terms of the clone engine when compared to Nintendo characters. Keep that in mind.


Tails (Sonic the Hedgehog)
Sonic's Luigi
Value - B - Super iconic Sonic character. Sonic's sidekick from the very early days. But do we need a second character from a non-Nintendo (guest) franchise?

Effort - A - Pseudo clone, Luigi style. He can borrow many moves from Sonic, but also diverge in several, making him more Luigi-like than an actual clone. Still, much less work needed.

Background - Everyone knows who Tails is, so if a Sonic character is to be considered, then it must go to Tails. However, the big question should be should another Sonic character even be considered in the first place? Remember this is a Nintendo game. Sonic and Snake are pretty much guests, and adding additional characters from their games is a little overkill. That being said, this is a mod, and the P:M staff are free to do what they want.

Moveset - Sonic clone... Probably slower, but with multiple jumps and maybe even Peach-like floating?

Pros
-Second most iconic Sonic character. Third most popular
-Luigifiable
-So many Sonic fans. Feed their voracious hunger.

Cons
-Yet another 3rd party character


Knuckles (Sonic the Hedgehog)
The Echidna

Value - B - Super iconic Sonic character. But do we need a second character from a non-Nintendo (guest) franchise?
Effort - A - Pseudo clone, Luigi style. He can borrow many moves from Sonic, but also diverge in several, making him more Luigi-like than an actual clone. Still, much less work needed.

Background - Knuckles first appeared in Sonic the Hedgehog 3 as a brainwashed guy who got in Sonic's way. Since then he's been a rival and friend/ally of Sonic's, appearing in a ton of games afterwards. He is similar to Sonic, but he also has a glide and the ability to climb on ledges and walls. He is generally like the Wario to Mario in terms of fighting; much stronger and more physical. He also seems to be more popular as an option than tails, which is why I include him here.

Moveset - Sonic clone... But probably slower and packs a lot more punch (literally), including heavier smash attacks and finishers than Sonic. He could probably also have a glide component

Pros
-Fourth most popular Sonic character
-Luigifiable
-Apparently more popular as a choice than Tails
-So many Sonic fans. Feed their voracious hunger.

Cons
-Yet another 3rd party character


Shadow (Sonic the Hedgehog)
Because people keep bringing him up

Value - C - Why Shadow over Tails?
Effort - A - Cloneable, a lot of PSA work done

Background - The darker, cloned version of Sonic.

Moveset - Obviously a Sonic (engine) clone, but he has some moves of his own that could be incorporated, like his use of chaos abilities.

Pros
-Cloneable
-Lots of PSA work done.
-Assist trophy

Cons
-Yet another 3rd party character


Gray Fox (Metal Gear)
He wants to feel alive again
Value - C - A fairly popular character, but does any third party series need another?
Effort - B - Could be cloned from another sword user, but he would need some unique moves. There's been PSA work that could be used for inspiration.

Background - A former mercenary from Metal Gear who has been both an ally and an enemy to Snake.

Moveset - A very speedy sword-user.

Pros
-Some PSA work done
Could be a decent semi-clone

Cons
-Another 3rd Party character
-Unlike Sonic characters, much less Nintendo-ish


Liquid Snake (Metal Gear)
The 'inferior' twin
Value - C - A major character from Metal Gear, but he's third party.
Effort - A - Could prove to be a fairly easy clone of Snake.

Background - The antagonist of Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes and one of the 'sons' of Big Boss along with Solid Snake.

Moveset - Since he and Solid are twins of a sort, he'd make a lot of sense as a Snake clone with different attributes.

Pros
-Easy Clone

Cons
-Yet another 3rd Party
-Unlike Sonic characters, much like Nintendo-ish


Most Recent and Past Results
The Format is as follows:
Name: Score (+1s, +1/2s, -1s, %)

Only characters with at least 10 votes (at least 5 must be positive votes) are included.

553 unique voters
Character Total (+1, 0.5, -1, % Approval)

Top 5
Isaac: 264.5 (252, 49, 12, 96.17%)
Ridley: 192.5 (205, 53, 39, 86.87%)
Ganondorf / Black Shadow: 141.5 (168, 43, 48, 81.47%)
Lyn: 125.5 (136, 55, 38, 83.41%)
King K. Rool: 124.5 (111, 65, 19, 90.26%)


S-Tier (75+ total)
Dark Samus: 108 (108, 56, 28, 85.42%)
Skull Kid: 104 (83, 52, 5, 96.43%)
Sami: 101 (101, 34, 17, 88.82%)
Saki: 79 (67, 42, 9, 92.37%)
Ray: 78 (60, 38, 1, 98.99%)


A-Tier (30+ total)
Dixie: 63.5 (73, 53, 36, 77.78%)
Sukapon: 59 (63, 46, 27, 80.15%)
Masked Man: 58 (48, 38, 9, 90.53%)
Paper Mario: 56 (54, 52, 24, 81.54%)
Waluigi: 38 (63, 48, 49, 69.38%)
Andy: 36.5 (27, 39, 10, 86.84%)
Ninten: 32 (27, 28, 9, 85.94%)
Tom Nook: 31.5 (33, 33, 18, 78.57%)


B-Tier (10+ total)
Takamaru: 29 (17, 26, 1, 97.73%)
Goroh: 27.5 (20, 37, 11, 83.82%)
Lip: 26 (19, 18, 2, 94.87%)
Tetra: 21.5 (25, 27, 17, 75.36%)
Pichu: 17.5 (83 ,37, 84, 58.82%)
Ashley: 14.5 (8, 13, 0, 100.00%)
Micaiah: 12.5 (11, 9, 3, 86.96%)
Mach Rider: 11.5 (3, 17, 0, 100.00%)

C-Tier (0+ total)
Red: 7.5 (23, 9, 20, 61.54%)
Balloon Fighter: 7 (3, 12, 2, 88.24%)
Prince Sabure: 7 (4, 8, 1, 92.31%)
Slippy: 6.5 (7, 11, 6, 75.00%)
Hector: 6 (20, 26, 27, 63.01%)
Midna and Wolf Link: 6 (5, 4, 1, 90.00%)
Rawk Hawk: 5.5 (1, 13, 2, 87.50%)
Leon: 4.5 (3, 9, 3, 80.00%)
Primid: 3.5 (10, 9, 11, 63.33%)
Krystal: 3 (31, 44, 50, 60.00%)


D-Tier (0 and lower)
Young Link: -0.5 (8, 7, 12, 55.56%)
Toad: -2 (26, 28, 42, 56.25%)
Plusle and Minun: -3.5 (8, 7, 15, 50.00%)
Toon Zelda: -9.5 (8, 9, 22, 43.59%)

F-Tier (Bottom 5)
Gray Fox: -13 (6, 4, 21, 32.26%)
Liquid Snake: -13.5 (2, 5, 18, 28.00%)
Tails: -33 (25, 32, 74, 43.51%)
Knuckles: -40.5 (28, 21, 79, 38.28%)
Shadow: -61 (25, 16, 94, 30.37%)

434 unique voters.
Character: Total (+1, 0.5, -1, % Approval)

Top 5
Isaac: 207.5 (200, 39, 12, 95.22%)
Ridley: 154.5 (168, 43, 35, 85.77%)
Ganondorf / Black Shadow: 117 (144, 32, 43, 80.37%)
Lyn: 106 (115, 46, 32, 83.42%)
K Rool: 89.5 (80, 51, 16, 89.12%)


S-Tier (55+ total)
Dark Samus: 89 (87, 54, 25, 84.94%)
Skull Kid: 81.5 (65, 43, 5, 95.58%)
Saki: 65 (55, 38, 9, 91.18%)
Ray: 58.5 (44, 31, 1, 98.68%)
Sami: 56.5 (61, 23, 16, 84.00%)


A-Tier (30+ total)
Masked Man: 51.5 (41, 37, 8, 90.70%)
Sukapon: 51.5 (56, 43, 26, 79.20%)
Dixie Kong: 44 (55, 48, 35, 74.64%)
Paper Mario: 41.5 (40, 49, 23, 79.46%)


B-Tier (15+ total)
Tom Nook: 29 (30, 28, 15, 79.45%)
Andy: 28 (22, 32, 10, 84.38%)
Ninten: 26.5 (24, 23, 9, 83.93%)
Waluigi: 23 (47, 42, 45)
Samurai Goroh: 22 (17, 23, 9, 83.93%)
Takamaru: 19 (10, 18, 0, 100%)
Lip: 17.5 (11, 13, 0, 100%)


C-Tier (0+ total)
Tetra: 11.5 (18, 19, 16, 69.81%)
Pichu: 10.5 (68, 35, 75, 57.87%)
Hector: 9.5 (20, 25, 23, 66.18%)
Mach Rider: 7.5 (1, 13, 0, 100%)
Sablé Prince: 7 (3, 8, 0, 100%)
Primid: 7 (7, 8, 4, 78.95%)
Ashley: 6.5 (2, 9, 0, 100%)
Rawk Hawk: 6.5 (1, 11, 0, 100%)
Slippy: 6 (7, 8, 5, 75.00%)
Leon: 5 (3, 6, 1, 90.00%)
Micaiah: 4 (3, 6, 2, 81.82%)
Balloon Fighter: 4.5 (1, 9, 1, 90.91%)
Toad: 3 (25, 26, 35, 59.30%)
Young Link: 1.5 (4, 5, 5, 64.29%)


D-Tier (0 and lower)
Pokemon Trainer: -2 (13, 6, 18, 51.35%)
Plusle and Minun: -2.5 (8, 7, 14, 51.72%)
Krystal: -3 (26, 34, 46, 56.60%)
Toon Zelda: -8.5 (8, 7, 20, 42.86%)


F-Tier (Bottom 5)
Gray Fox: -9 (5, 4, 16, 36.00%)
Liquid Snake: -9 (2, 2, 12, 25.00%)
Tails: -29.5 (22, 29, 66, 43.59%)
Knuckles: -41 (22, 16, 71, 34.86%)
Shadow: -55.5 (22, 15, 85, 30.33%)


357 total voters.
Top 5
Isaac: 177 (169, 36, 10, 95.35%)
Ridley: 131 (143, 42, 33, 84.86%)
Ganondorf + Black Shadow: 98 (124, 28, 40, 79.17%)
Lyn: 93.5 (100, 43, 28, 83.63%)
Dark Samus: 76 (75, 50, 24, 83.89%)


S Tier
King K. Rool: 68.5 (62, 45, 16, 86.99%)
Skull Kid: 62 (49, 36, 5, 94.44%)
Saki: 53 (46, 32, 9, 89.66%)
Bowser Jr: 53 (56, 38, 22, 81.03%)


A Tier
Sukapon: 47 (53, 38, 25, 78.45%)
Masked Man/Claus: 44 (35, 30, 6, 91.55%)
Sami: 42 (48, 20, 16, 80.95%)
Ray: 41.5 (30, 23, 0, 100.00%)
Dixie Kong: 35 (48, 42, 34, 72.58%)
Paper Mario: 32 (34, 44, 24, 76.47%)

B Tier
Andy: 26.5 (21, 29, 9, 84.75%)
Tom Nook: 26.5 (26, 25, 12, 80.95%)
Samurai Goroh: 21.5 (17, 31, 11, 81.36%)
Ninten: 18 (15, 18, 6, 84.62%)
Waluigi: 15 (40, 38, 44, 63.93%)
Lip: 13.5 (7, 13, 0, 100.00%)
Hector: 11 (18, 24, 19, 68.85%)


C Tier
Primid: 8.5 (7, 9, 3, 84.21%)
Tetra: 8 (14, 18, 15, 68.09%)
Mach Rider: 7.5 (1, 13, 0, 100.00%)
Slippy: 5.5 (7, 7, 5, 73.68%)
Leon: 5 (3, 6, 1, 90.00%)
Balloon Fighter: 4.5 (1, 9, 1, 90.91%)
Toad: 3.5 (24, 23, 32, 59.49%)
Young Link: 1 (4, 4, 5, 61.54%)
Red/Pokemon Trainer: 0.5 (11, 5, 13, 55.17%)


D Tier
Pichu: -2.5 (54, 29, 71, 53.90%)
Pulse & Minun: -3 (7, 8, 14, 51.72%)
Toon Zelda: -7.5 (8, 7, 19, 44.12%)
Krystal: -8 (20, 30, 43, 53.76%)
Gray Fox: -10 (3, 2, 14, 26.32%)


Sonic Tier
Tails: -26.5 (21, 27, 61, 44.04%)
Knuckles: -33.5 (21, 15, 62, 36.73%)
Shadow: -51 (21, 14, 79, 30.70%)

Individual Tiers
Isaac: 132.5 (131, 23, 10, 93.90%)

Ridley: 100.5 (108, 33, 24, 85.45%)

Lyn: 74 (83, 26, 22, 83.21%)

Ganondorf + Black Shadow: 68 (91, 23, 35, 76.67%)

Dark Samus: 53 (54, 40, 21, 81.74%)

King K Rool: 46 (43, 32, 13, 85.23%)


A Tier
Skapon: 39.5 (44, 31, 20, 78.95%)
Bowser Jr.: 37 (39, 32, 18, 79.78%)
Saki: 37 (33, 26, 9, 86.76%)
Skull Kid: 32 (27, 18, 4, 91.84%)
Masked Man/Claus: 30.5 (27, 15, 4, 91.30%)


B Tier
Sami: 23.5 (34, 13, 17, 73.44%)
Dixie Kong: 23 (35, 38, 31, 70.19%)
Paper Mario: 20 (25, 34, 22, 72.84%)
Tom Nook: 20 (18, 20, 8, 82.61%)
Ray: 18.5 (11, 15, 0, 100.00%)
Andy: 15.5 (14, 19, 8, 80.49%)
Samurai Goroh: 15 (13, 26, 11, 78.00%)


C Tier
Toad: 7.5 (21, 19, 23, 63.49%)
Waluigi: 6 (31, 26, 38, 60.00%)
Lip: 5.5 (1, 9, 0, 100.00%)
Hector: 3.5 (11, 19, 17, 63.83%)
Tetra: 3 (9, 14, 13, 64.89%)
Red/Pokemon Trainer: 1 (5, 4, 6, 60.00%)
Plusle & Minun: -3 (6, 9, 13, 51.85%)


D Tier
Toon Zelda: -9.5 (6, 7, 19, 40.63%)
Krystal: -10.5 (11, 25, 34, 51.43%)
Pichu: -12.5 (36, 25, 61, 50.00%)


F (Sonic) Tier
Tails: -25.5 (16, 19, 51, 40.70%)
Knuckles: -28.5 (15, 11, 49, 34.67%)
Shadow: -53.5 (12, 7, 69, 21.59%)
Total Voters: 168

A Tier
Isaac: 95 (95, 20, 10, 92.00%)
Ridley: 67.5 (75, 25, 20, 83.33%)
Lyn: 51.5 (60, 19, 18, 81.44%)


B Tier
Ganondorf/Black Shadow: 38.5 (59, 19, 30, 72.22%)
King K. Rool: 31.5 (30, 27, 12, 82.61%)
Dark Samus: 30 (37, 28, 21, 75.58%)
Skapon: 28 (36, 20, 18, 75.68%)
Saki: 24.5 (21, 23, 8, 84.62%)
Masked Man/Claus: 24 (21, 12, 3, 91.67%)
Bowser Jr.: 22 (27, 22, 16, 75.38%)


C Tier
Paper Mario: 12 (17, 28, 19, 70.31%)
Sami: 12 (23, 12, 17, 67.31%)
Tom Nook: 11.5 (11, 15, 7, 78.79%)
Dixie Kong: 11.5 (25, 29, 28, 65.85%)
Skull Kid: 9.5 (8, 7, 2, 88.24%)
Samurai Goroh: 9.5 (11, 19, 11, 73.17%)
Andy: 9.5 (9, 15, 7, 77.42%)


D Tier
Hector: 0.5 (7, 13, 13, 60.61%)
Tetra: 0 (8, 6, 11, 56.00%)
Plusle & Minun: -1.5 (5, 7, 10, 54.54%)
Toad: -4.5 (10, 13, 21, 52.27%)
Waluigi: -6 (18, 20, 34, 52.78%)


E Tier
Krystal: -9.5 (8, 21, 28, 50.88%)
Toon Zelda: -10.5 (6, 5, 19, 36.67%)
Pichu: -12.5 (24, 19, 46, 48.31%)


Sonic Tier
Tails: -25 (12, 14, 44, 37.14%)
Knuckles: -29.5 (9, 7, 42, 27.59%)
Shadow: -44.5 (10, 7, 58, 22.67%)
Total voters: 102

Isaac: 63.5 (62, 9, 3, 95.9%)
Ridley: 45.5 (49, 13, 10, 86.1%)

Lyn: 36 (39, 12, 9, 85.0%)
Ganondorf / Black Shadow: 22.5 (31, 15, 16, 74.2%)
Skapon: 18.5 (21, 15, 10, 78.3%)
King K Rool: 17 (11, 18, 3, 90.6%)

Dark Samus: 16 (20, 22, 15, 73.7%)
Sami: 15.5 (20, 9, 9, 76.3%)
Dixie: 14.5 (21, 17, 15, 71.7%)
Saki: 13.5 (16, 13, 7, 80.0%)
Bowser Jr: 11.5 (16, 13, 11, 72.5%)
Tom Nook: 10.5 (7, 7, 0, 100%)
Paper Mario: 7.5 (12, 19, 14, 68.9%)
Andy: 7 (6, 10, 4, 80.0%)
Samurai Goroh: 5.5 (6, 17, 9, 71.9%)

Plusle & Minun: 1 (3, 4, 4, 63.6%)
Toad: 0 (6, 10, 11, 59.3%)
Hector: -2.5 (6, 5, 11, 50.0%)
Pichu: -3.5 (16, 13, 26, 52.7%)
Tetra: -4.5 (5, 1, 10, 37.5%)

Krystal: -7 (6, 14, 20, 50.0%)
Toon Zelda: -9 (4, 0, 13, 23.5%)
Waluigi: -15 (8, 12, 29, 40.8%)

Tails: -18.5 (8, 9, 20, 35.4%)
Knuckles: -21 (6, 4, 29, 25.6%)
Shadow: -30.5 (6, 3, 38, 19.1%)
Total voters: 59

Isaac: 39.5 (36, 9 ,1)
Ridley: 32.5 (32, 9, 4)

Ganondorf / Black Shadow: 17 (19, 8, 6)
Dixie: 15.5 (16, 11, 6)
Lyn: 15 (19, 6, 7)
Sami: 13.5 (13, 5, 2)
Saki: 11.5 (10, 9, 1)
Bowser Jr: 11.5 (12, 7, 4)
Skapon: 10 (11, 8, 5)

King K Rool: 8.5 (5, 13, 3)
Dark Samus: 7.5 (13, 11, 11)
Samurai Goroh: 4.5 (4, 9, 4)
Andy: 4.5 (2, 7, 1)
Paper Mario: 2.5 (6, 9, 8)

Toad: -0.5 (4, 7, 8)
Krystal: -3 (5, 6, 11)
Tetra: -3 (5, 0, 8)

Hector: -4.5 (2, 1, 7)
Toon Zelda: -6.5 (3, 0, 8)
Pichu: -6.5 (8, 9, 19)
Waluigi: -9.5 (4, 9, 18)
Tails: -11 (6, 6, 20)
Knuckles: -15.5 (4, 1, 20)
Shadow: -25.5 (2, 1, 28)


Feel free to interpret it however you like, but I think it's safe to say all the characters colored green (score of at least 10, and more than twice as many full votes as anti votes) are popular choices, while the red ones (negative score, more than twice as many anti votes as full votes) should not make it in due to being generally unpopular. I think this is something that people in the minority camps of both groups should be able to understand and acknowledge. The only one I'd give an asterisk to is Ganondorf / Black Shadow, as it'd be nice for Ganondorf mains to have a louder say on that.
 
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HyperrCrow

Emotional Reality
Joined
Mar 1, 2013
Messages
1,422
Location
Boston, MA
Hey Anti, I think perhaps Announcer Calls and SFX should also factor into a character as well. Don't know if you feel the same though.
By the way, great organization here.
 

lukifer

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
75
Thanks for taking the time to put this list together Anti Guy, looks very complete.

I have a few clone suggestions of my own. My apologies if these we're mentioned in the other thread already, although since they aren't in the list I assume they weren't.

1. Plusle and Minun



I don't actually know much about these Pokemon since I stopped playing after Gold and Silver, but my understanding is that they're like a pair of two little Pichus, except one has a negative charge and the other a positive one. It's been theorized that these were one of the character slots in the "Foribdden Seven", although I don't think that's ever been proven. The idea here is that they would fight as a pair like the Ice Climbers, so they'd be implemented as a clone of the IC's rather than Pikachu. There could be some technical limitations here unfortunately. Personally I think they would be much more interesting than Pichu, since they would allow desynching and all the advanced techniques that go along with that. I'm surprised how many people have asked for Pichu to return, considering that he was literally implemented as a joke character in Melee. People only played him as a way to troll in my experience.

2. Toon Sheik (Tetra) and Toon Zelda



Another one of the Forbidden Seven characters. I'm not sure if they could be implemented as a single character slot or if they'd require two. If the latter case, they probably wouldn't be worth doing. With regards to movesets, for the most part they could be a faster version of Sheik/Zelda, similar to how TL is like a faster version of Link. Although I think they should have some unique moves as well since Tetra used a sword and Toon Zelda had a bow in the final fight against Ganondorf. (Although I guess "regular" Zelda has used a bow as well, eh.)

3. Bowser Jr.



For some reason, I've always loved this little guy. Maybe because he was one of my fav characters in Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour. In any case, he's probably always been the smash character that I've wanted the most, except maybe Ganon with a unique moveset. I suppose he could show up in Smash 4, but considering his first major appearance was in SMS (iirc), and they passed him over for Brawl, it seems unlikely. I'm not sure who it would make sense to clone him off of, since his moveset should be unique for the most part. He could be a sword-based character with this paintbrush, although another possibility would be for him to only use it for certain attacks like you suggested with Ganon and his sword. Other attacks could involve him using his claws and teeth like Bowser.


Anyway that's my list. Comment/critique/flame if you want!
 

Chzrm3

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
625
3DS FC
3926-5442-3703
Ooh, this is a fun thread!

I'd vote for:

Dixie: as a hybrid Diddy/DK clone with some of DK's tilts, aerials, and recovery, but Diddy's general mobility, guns, bananas and remaining attacks)

Jeff: as a clone of Snake, with some reworked normal attacks to replace the lanky, long reach that Snake has. His specials are pretty much perfect already TBH, you'd just want to change Up-B so that it's bubble monkey. =)

Tetra: As a stand-alone character! I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that doing Toon Zelda/Tetra would eat up two slots. If that's the case, I'd rather just see her join as Tetra. I'm thinking she'd definitely be based off Sheik, but then given a slower, heavier playstyle. Not that she'd be a heavy character, just that Sheik is so fast/quick that you really can't make her faster, so going slower might be a better alternative. Then for some of her attacks that'd make no sense with Sheik's enormous legs (since Tetra has such stubby legs!), she'd use a scimitar, instead. So Sheik's crazy leg tilts would turn into Tetra kind of swiping a sword around, with the same (or similar, if that makes no sense for them to be identical) hitboxes. To further spice things up, the needles could look like throwing knives and have different properties - maybe they're also slower and a bit thicker, so they do more damage and have more knockback. I also think it'd be cool if her side-B was the grappling rope from WW, and if you chucked it out there, you could kind of "pull" enemies in. I have NO idea how that'd work as far as programming, though - might be a huge mess!!!

Pichu: Because I love this guy, and it doesn't feel quite right without him. : >

Oh man, the fifth spot is really hard. It's between Toad and Tails.... @_@

Toad: A lot of people might hate this idea, but I think he'd actually work well based off of Mario. Since Dr. M is a costume now and a lot of Dr. M's best stuff was absorbed by Mario, there's this interesting position for a character who's similar to Mario, but plays differently. Mario's pretty heavy and strong now, so maybe Toad could be a quicker, lighter alternative?

Tails: Kind of the opposite, I think he'd work really nicely as a slowed down, heavier version of Sonic. Change up the way he recovers - Tails didn't have the homing attack, so maybe holding B makes his Tails begin to spin, and he starts gaining some upward momentum? This means Up-B could also be changed, or it could be left the same to make Tails amazing at recovering, which kinda fits (the same way Pit, Meta, etc are really good at recovering). Perhaps change a few of his aerials/tilts as well so that they make use of his Tails, and I think he'd look, feel and play amazing. He'd fit right in!

After saying that, I'm gonna go with Tails! So my final roster is:

Dixie
Jeff
Tetra
Pichu
Tails

!!!! >_< Please don't hate me too much, it's so biased. : D I know this would never happen, but those are my crazy, based picks! XD
 

l3thargy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 11, 2009
Messages
234
Location
New Glasgow N.S.
1-VOTE

-Black Shadow with Ganondorf's moveset with Ganon getting a more Oot or TP inspired one (Ganondorf could keep a lot of the moves he currently has such as his jab, down air, side-b, back air, forward tilt, down tilt, and down smash, and be given moves such as a ground slam like in oot as a down-b, up-b can be his jump animation from TP, neutral-b would be the charge move he had from oot, if you press it he'll fire one yellow ball but if you charge it all the way he does the purple homing shot thing he does, forward-smash would be much like Ike's and so on so forth)

-Kid Icarus Representative like Palutena (she could use her staff and magic and/or the wolverine claws she has in the Palutena's revolting dinner Special, also she's female and we need more woman in smash lol reason)

-Ridley in and make him slightly taller then Bowser well being really hunched over (as so he'll still look as big as he should in the games but still seem small enough to fit in with the rest of the cast and making him a character with fast movement and strong attacks to compensate for his size but having little to no super armor/priority on some of his moves)

-King K Rool (I'm mostly for because I think it would awesome to play as him and also against him, he could be roughly the same size as bowser, maybe a bit taller, he could use some of his attacks from DK64, for his neutral-b he could use his blunderbuss)

-Isaac from Golden Sun (mostly due to peer pressure lol jk, but seriously I think he could have a really neat move-set with his Swordsmanship and psynergy)

1/2 VOTE

-Andy
-Sami
-Saki Amamiya
-Sukapon/Skapon
-Dark Samus
-Dixie Kong
-Doctor Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik
-Frank Jaeger "Greyfox"

DOWN-VOTE

-Lyndis
-Hector (even though I really like Lyn and Hector, I feel Fire-Emblem doesn't deserve three out of the 7 slots)
-Paper Mario
-Samurai Goroh
-Any third party characters from Sonic or Metal Gear that isn't Eggman or Greyfox
-Any character from Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon (excluding the Ganondorf/Black Shadow idea due to it being more about Black Shadow being added into the game since Ganondorf is already in it he'd just get another move-set)

All other characters that don't fall under my down-vote section I feel indifferent towards
 

giantrobots

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
8
Thanks, Anti Guy, for organizing all of this together. I really enjoyed reading it, and it looks great!

1-Up-Vote:
Black Shadow / Ganondorf (Or at least replace Warlock Punch with something viable)
Samurai Goroh
Dark Samus
Lyn
Isaac

1/2-Up-Vote
Ridley
Sami
K. Rool

Down-Vote:
Pichu
Dixie
Waluigi
Sukapon
Shadow
Tails
Knuckles
Krystal
Toad
Any toon characters from Zelda
 

shinhed-echi

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
5,636
Location
Ecuador - South America
NNID
punchtropics
3DS FC
5301-0890-0238
1-VOTE
-Pichu (he's a veteran, he deserves to be back. He can be faster than Pika, and have stun moves)
-Samurai Goroh (he's the 2nd most important F-Zero character + Assist Trophy + shares screen with C.F. in Melee's intro)
-Saki (he's an assist trophy too :/ people tend to forget)
-Sukapon (he can be easily cloned, as far as moves are concerned. Animations... is a different story though)
-Knuckles (a Sonic clone that can also glide and climb? Where do I sign!?)


1/2 VOTE:
-Sukapon

-Tails
-Shadow
-Andy
-Dark Samus
-Isaac
-Krystal
-Dixie
-Ridley (Bumped down because he's going to win anyway)
-K.rool
-Toad

DOWN-VOTE:
-Black Shadow
-Paper Mario
-Lyndis
 

Ninka_kiwi

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
685
1-VOTE
-Saki (most wanted character due to how awesome and varied his moveset can be)
-Issac (Golden sun needs representation, and I fear he won't have a very good chance in Sm4sh)
-Lyn (A Safe bet for a popular character that will not be in Sm4sh)
-Sami (Even if Andy get into Sm4sh somehow, using Sami would be a good way to get around that problem)
-Sukapon (Another safe bet, could look really cool in Smash.)


1/2 VOTE:
-Andy
-Dark Samus
-Ridley
-K.rool
-Toad

DOWN-VOTE:
-Tails
-Shadow
-Knuckles

Honestly, I should really get around to writing a Saki moveset for those that have not played Sin and Punishment, could see how he'd play, as a fast sword wielder with a chargeable Fox Laser sounds perfect to me.
 

MagnesD3

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
4,850
Location
Hiding in Microsoft Headquarters
1- Vote

Ridley - My most wanted character for smash, Very important, Very popular, Very Cool.
Krystal - My second most wanted character, Popular, Varied moveset (Starfox series is awesome!!!)
Lyn - Popular, First Western Fire Emblem Lord
Saki - Franchise not repped yet, super cool potential for moveset
Issac - Franchise not repped yet, great moveset potential, Popular

1/2 Vote

Black Shadow/Ganondorf switch - (Id like f zero to get a second rep that they deserve and will never get and Ganondorf to get the moveset he deserves)
Waluigi - He's funny and he will never make it in real smash.
Dark Samus - She is important to the Metroid series and will likely never get in smash.
Paper Mario - His series isnt repped and he has many games.
King K. Rool - Worthy DK rep at risk for no inclusion


Down Vote

Pichu - Its ******** in every way.
Tail - dont need 3rd party
Knucles - dont need 3rd party
Shadow - dont need 3rd party
Sukapon - looks stupid
Dixie Kong - probably in ssb4
Jr. - probably in ssb4
Toad - waste
Tetra - waste
plusle minun - waste
Hector - sry lyn is better :p
 

ChronoBound

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
8,998
One thing I would like to suggest is to post a picture for Sami, I think that is the only character without one.
 

Solbliminal

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 11, 2013
Messages
2,275
NNID
Solbliminal
+ Vote

1. Dixie- Because she is a popular female Rep. We need more of those.

2. Issac- A no brainier for most. He deserves representation. I don't feel like I need to argue his inclusion since majority agrees.

3. Ninten- An intriguing character that either could play like his own style or be a semi-clone of Ness and Lucas.

4. Paper Mario- A popular franchise character that literally separates from the roots of traditional Mario, stemming into its own thing. He merits a vote.

5. Ray MK III- Save the best for last they always say. I was a huge Custom Robo fan back when the game was still fresh. I honestly couldn't think of a Nintendo franchise more deserving, after Golden Sun of course, than Custom Robo to have a representative in Project M. He brings a unique playstyle to the table that has yet to be fully achieved, as a pure ranged, air-dash fighter. There were many possibilities discussed about his play style, such as having an 8-way air dash and many unique projectiles. His arsenal ranges from guns, to bombs, to pods (traps). He would easily be both a unique and fun experience for the roster.
 
Last edited:

Giuseppe Verzino

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
1
+1
Dark Samus
Black Shadow/ Ganondorf
Pichu
Dixie Kong
Bowser Jr.!!!!

-1
Shadow
Knuckles
Tails
Waluigi
 

820

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
99
Location
Northeast Ohio
Full Vote:
Paper Mario
Isaac
Black Shadow/Ganon Decloned
Dixie
Dark Samus (Simply because its a more plausible choice than Ridley)

Half Vote:
Lyn
Andy/Sami
K Rool
Ridley
Pichu
Bowser Jr.
Goroh
Sukapon
Custom Robo (an idea that seems to be dismissed, might try a write up on Ray to bring him into the discussion.)

Negative vote:
Shadow
Waluigi
Toad

I did this on my phone, so I might re format and better explain my choices later.
 

Celestis

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
513
+ Vote
Waluigi - I love this guy. I wish Nintendo would show him more love. A comic relief character at its finest and would just be pure fun to play as. Watching him be played in a tournament and win would be worth many laughs.
Shadow - I think as long as he is not to much of a clone, his Chaos powers could lead to some creative move ideas.
Black Shadow and declone of Ganon - Its strange to think of Ganon not a clone, but he so deserves a move set to match his awesomeness. Power of the Triforce!
Krystal - Have always wanted her ever since her debut, but only if she is not a clone.

1/2 Vote
Dixey Kong - I find Diddy to be annoying, but I have this hope that Dixey might not be..
Lyn - I want her, but I feel there are to many FE Characters for a full vote.
Isaac - I do not know a lot about this series, but a fresh character would be awesome.

- Vote
Nah, don't want to harm anyone's vote.
 

Eltrion

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 24, 2010
Messages
66
Location
North Bay, Ontario, Canada
+
Saki
Issac
Andy
Sami

1/2
Sukapon

-
Waluigi
Shadow
Krystal
Pichu

And
Submitting:
Kumatora
Little Mac

I want a rough around the edges female character.
Samus, Shiek, Zelda, and Peach are all relatively refined. Lynn would be too. Sami would work, though I don't know if she'd get in over Andy in a currently unrepresented franchise.

Kumatora, however is a girl who's just going to rush in and slug someone.

I'd imagine her as being fast, flashy and incredibly unsafe on whiff. Standard attacks would be punches, and feel a little like C. Falcon. Psy attacks would be big but weak having hit boxes the same size as DK or charzard, and initially seem over powered, but as you learn the matchup, you realize how unsafe a lot of it is if you don't know what you're doing.
 

Kally Wally

Smash Ace
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Mar 16, 2013
Messages
597
Location
Florida
I don't normally go in for this kind of speculation, but **** it, this is a chance to make my voice heard. I know there will be a lot of people who disagree with me on many of these points, and I'm fine with that.

UP

Princess Daisy (Yes, Daisy. I know she's a Peach skin, and that she isn't extremely important to the Mario series (which is already highly represented) but despite all that, I would unironically like to see Daisy. I envision her as being the representative for the sports titles, or more specifically, Mario Strikers. Something about a high octane, Falcon-esque version of Peach just seems so incredibly right. Maybe I just have an affinity for that kind of character.)

Dark Samus (She's a villain, she's a Metroid rep, and she might even count as a female. Also, two words; Fast Samus. What's not to love?)

Black Shadow and Uncloned Ganon (Ganon deserves uniqueness, but his old moveset is cool. This is a good compromise.)

Tails (I can't turn down another Sonic rep, on my honor, and Tails just seems like the best choice. Lots of room for creativity, and seniority among Sonic characters to boot.)

Saki (I don't know anything about Sin & Punishment, but he seems cool, and could have a pretty unique playstyle. That's all I ask for.)


HALF

Isaac (Same reason as Saki. I mainly have him as a half, rather than a full vote, because he's popular, and I'd rather support the underdog that is Saki.)

Plusle and Minum (I guess??? See below.)

Waluigi (He's cool, but honestly, he doesn't sit well with me in a way I can't quite describe. I believe he could work, but I wouldn't put him in over anyone above.)

DOWN

Pichu (Pointless. I don't care if he's a Melee vet, he's still a pointless joke character with few redeeming qualities, and Pokemon is already THOROUGHLY represented. Yes, I realize that I upvoted Princess Daisy of all people, and I realize that makes me biased. Sue me.) (That said, if we ABSOLUTELY MUST represent Pichu, I would accept Plusle and Minun, since they at least have the potential to be really cool, whereas Pichu would need a complete rework to be as interesting. I suppose they get a half-vote.)

King K. Rool (If downvoting Pichu was based in personal bias, downvoting King K. Rool is me being the man who wants to watch the world burn. I realize that he probably has some cool stuff about him, but I don't have any nostalgia for the DK series, so to me he just looks like a big, fat, stupid crocodile.)

Ridley (Behold, I have done the impossible - I have downvoted Ridley. I even placed him lower than Pichu of all characters. Why? Because, as someone with only a passing familiarity with the Metroid series, Dark Samus just seems like a character with much more potential overall. I'd be happy to have my view changed, but I just don't see anything compelling in Ridley. Again, personal bias.)

I think I like fast characters way too much, and have far too much irrational hatred for large ones. Paging Dr. Freud? Maybe.
 

Mera Mera

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
372
Location
Neenah, WI
1 vote

-Issac from Golden Sun
-Ridley
-Black Shadow with Ganondorf's moveset with Ganon getting a more Oot or TP inspired one
-Saki from Sin and Punishment
-King K Rool

1/2 vote

-Lynn (She almost made it into the 1 vote for me)
-Dixie Kong
-Paper Mario
-Dark Samus
-Tails

-1 vote
Waluigi
-Toad
-Samurai Goroh
 

Anti Guy

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Thanks for taking the time to put this list together Anti Guy, looks very complete.

I have a few clone suggestions of my own. My apologies if these we're mentioned in the other thread already, although since they aren't in the list I assume they weren't.

1. Plusle and Minun



I don't actually know much about these Pokemon since I stopped playing after Gold and Silver, but my understanding is that they're like a pair of two little Pichus, except one has a negative charge and the other a positive one. It's been theorized that these were one of the character slots in the "Foribdden Seven", although I don't think that's ever been proven. The idea here is that they would fight as a pair like the Ice Climbers, so they'd be implemented as a clone of the IC's rather than Pikachu. There could be some technical limitations here unfortunately. Personally I think they would be much more interesting than Pichu, since they would allow desynching and all the advanced techniques that go along with that. I'm surprised how many people have asked for Pichu to return, considering that he was literally implemented as a joke character in Melee. People only played him as a way to troll in my experience.

2. Toon Sheik (Tetra) and Toon Zelda



Another one of the Forbidden Seven characters. I'm not sure if they could be implemented as a single character slot or if they'd require two. If the latter case, they probably wouldn't be worth doing. With regards to movesets, for the most part they could be a faster version of Sheik/Zelda, similar to how TL is like a faster version of Link. Although I think they should have some unique moves as well since Tetra used a sword and Toon Zelda had a bow in the final fight against Ganondorf. (Although I guess "regular" Zelda has used a bow as well, eh.)

3. Bowser Jr.



For some reason, I've always loved this little guy. Maybe because he was one of my fav characters in Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour. In any case, he's probably always been the smash character that I've wanted the most, except maybe Ganon with a unique moveset. I suppose he could show up in Smash 4, but considering his first major appearance was in SMS (iirc), and they passed him over for Brawl, it seems unlikely. I'm not sure who it would make sense to clone him off of, since his moveset should be unique for the most part. He could be a sword-based character with this paintbrush, although another possibility would be for him to only use it for certain attacks like you suggested with Ganon and his sword. Other attacks could involve him using his claws and teeth like Bowser.


Anyway that's my list. Comment/critique/flame if you want!

I'll add Bowser Jr. to the list, but I'll hold off on the other two for now unless they get popular enough. I honestly don't see the value in either of them. Plusle and Minun are so insignificant (and again, we have SEVEN(!!!!!!!!) Pokemon), and Tetra is a one-game character (just like Sheik, who I didn't think needed to return to Brawl, but whatever) -- you might as well have Midna and all the sidekicks. The "Forbidden Seven" thing is really minor at this point.


One thing I would like to suggest is to post a picture for Sami, I think that is the only character without one.
That one picture was actually for both. I'll clarify that.

Is there any way to create an electronic poll instead of having everyone post and then count up all the votes by hand?

Or would we need to create some kind of kwiksurvey? Maybe like this one, except much more focused to include Anti Guy's P:M parameters and down-vote mechanic? http://www.smashboards.com/threads/the-ssb4-poll-lounge-votes-hit-1900.324324/

You kids and your newfangled toys. If someone wants to put in the effort, sure. But hand is fine. I sure as hell don't have time to do the counting though (but the data's there!)

Hey Anti, I think perhaps Announcer Calls and SFX should also factor into a character as well. Don't know if you feel the same though. By the way, great organization here.
I did reference that quite often in my pros and cons I think.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Vote:

Lyn
Isaac
Ridley
Sami
Dixie

Reasons-

Lyn, many agree she's the best choice for a competitively fierce character (including tourney hotshots like M2K - check my Lyn thread ;)), and PM being a competitively oriented game, there really couldn't be a better fit for an original character. Especially since her chances of showing up in Smash 4 are very slim, and even if she did, her incarnation in Smash 4 wouldn't never tap her competitive potential like she would in P:M.

Isaac, while he has a viable shot as Smash 4, I'd rather gamble on him not showing, as I'd much prefer to see what the PM team can do with the Djini system and him, as opposed to a dull moveset he'd likely get in Smash 4 should he make it in.

Ridley, many are fearful he won't get in, and I digress, but this is honestly a case of the PM team being able to do something really special with a much overdue character. An aerial focused fighter would be sweet (Aerial Smash Attacks anyone?).

Sami, the only semi-clone I honestly support, and mainly because I'm a Snake main. I'd like to see what could be done with her, and she could be an alternate take on the gun-focused playstyle found on Snake. Also, her chances of getting in Smash 4 are non-existent.

Dixie, she can actually make in it Smash 4, so I'm doubtful, but she'd make for an interesting character regardless.


Downvote:
Paper Mario
Pichu
Knuckles
Tails
Shadow


Reasons-
Paper Mario already has a decent chance of making it into Smash 4, and honestly, as awesome as his concept is, I'd rather take the gamble with Sakurai, and there are better options out there.

Pichu is bad choice for a character, as is vouching for clones, more characters for the sake of more characters is a dumb idea, 700+ hours of work for a character that plays slightly different from another. I'd much rather have ONE unique character over 5 clones really. Not to mention you can reskin Pika as him already, AND we have that Alt. Costume engine showcased for Turbo Mario.

Sonic characters. I don't even need to say why these are bad choices.
 

trojanpooh

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
1,183
Okay, lez do this:
+Pichu
One of the last of the Melee cuts (Toon Link =/= Young Link) and has lots of room for improvement as well as a really sturdy base to work off of. Has a really fun play style that even the haters would surely fall in love with if they gave the balanced version of it a spin. Plus it'd be just cruel of the PMBR to tease him in the April Fools trailer and then not add him despite having a functional clone engine. Not cool, PMBR. Not cool.
+Bowser Jr.
Can be made as a clone of Bowser greatly reducing the work for the PMBR plus has the potential to be very unique. Since Bowser is such a heavy hitter it'd be interesting to see a clone of him that does the opposite.

*Black Shadow
I don't really care about giving Ganondorf a unique moveset, but I wouldn't be upset if they gave him one. He really doesn't need one, though. He's only been in 3 games, people, he honestly isn't that important to the Zelda franchise.

-Any of the Sanic Pals
I think this goes without saying. Even the original Sonic buddies have always been pretty lame and they've only gotten worse with the advent of voice acting. We don't need more 3rd party reps unless the PMBR were willing to dip into Mega Man and Castlevania (which they've said they aren't)
-Dixie Kong
Dixie is one of those fad characters that always seem to gain false popularity leading into the release of any Smash game. People can toss around as many buzzwords like "relevance", "move potential", or "iconic" but she's still nothing more than the sidekick of a sidekick. How riveting.
 

-Whiplash-

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1. Ridley - I really wanted him in brawl and metroid needs more reps and the series needs more villians in general.
2. Black Shadow -, Same thing as Ridley.
3. Isaac - I was surprised he wasen't in brawl to be begin with and his moveset could be interesting with his sword and psy moves.
4. SUkapon - I think this guy would be fun, I played his game, it was simple, but fun.
5. Bowser Jr. - I always though he'd be cool if he could transform to shadow mario as his down-b.

Half vote:
Pichu, He's a vet and I think it's be fun. IDK why though, and I wouldn't be mad if he wasen't included, and I hope they don't balance him if he gets in, he needs to be the worst character in the game.
Paper Mario - someone I wanted in brawl and I really like the idea of him being a playabe.
Dark Samus - Could be interesting as long as she wasen't a complete samus clone.
Saki - Could be interesting with his laser sword and gun.
Krystal - I thought she should've been in brawl in place of falco as she wouldn't be a clone and is a girl, and smash needs more girls.


Downvote:
Tails - Sonic needs no more reps.
Knuckles - Sonic needs no more reps.
Shadow - Sonic needs no more reps.
Samurai Goroh - He's a joke and an idiot in his own game series and has almost no relevence on the story.
Waluigi - He's not a real character, he was never in any mario game that wasen't a party/sports game.
 

shadow0x0cloud

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Messages
148
Location
Long Island
After rethinking ( and seeing some people vote in green) I would like to post a little more on who i would like

+ vote

Dark Samus

Ridley

Issac - I really like this character / game. The things that could be done with just his push as a projectile like luigi / pit. I reccommend Jenna for both fire and the very little amount of female rep in this game.

Sami - Alot of people are saying Snake clone but I would really like to see a ZSS' paralyzer mechanic mixed with Snake's modernized weapons.

Lyn - female reps and for the ability to do more than just swing a sword around a la Marth / Ike / Roy
 

OrangeSodaGuy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 17, 2010
Messages
250
Location
in a yellow submarine
+ vote:

* Pichu- Pichu seems to be the only SSBM vet who has no real representation in P:M whatsoever. Pikachu doesn't seem to have inherited much of anything from Pichu, and it's self damage and other weird attributes (that Pika could never get away with having) could make it a very interesting high-risk/high-reward character. .I don't think that "he was a clone in melee and he was bad" is a fair argument to make considering that we've got Mewtwo (who was low tier), Roy (who was low tier AND a clone) confirmed to return. Joke characters need love too.
Naysayers do have a point that we've got a LOT of pokemon, however-- if people REALLY, REALLY, don't want Pichu back, I'd suggest porting some of his mechanics over to Plusule and Minun.


* Ridley- Seriously-- It's a freaking purple radioactive killer space dragon and it's the biggest icons in one of Nintendo's best series (Metroid). How has this thing never been playable? I need this.

* Samurai Goroh- The original F-zero rival! He strikes me as a far more original and endearing character than Black Shadow. He's one of the icons of the series, being one of only four racers to have appeared in EVERY game in the series. Way funnier and more memorable than Black Shadow. There are some great moveset ideas in this thread, and he could work well as a melee fighter with a few sword based attacks. and heck-- in spite of his cool sword, I wouldn't even mind a Goroh that DIDN'T use his sword (as a running gag and a shout out to the fact that Falcon never uses his gun in gameplay). His SSBM intro cameo was also pretty legit.

* Issac- Golden Sun seems like a pretty cool beloved franchise that could use a playable spot. It seems like there's a lot he could do inbetween using a sword and his psyenergy abilities. I wish I could say more-- I need to play this series. I hear great things about it! :)

* Dixie- Mainly because she was planned to be in SSBB. I've also got a lot of fond memories growing up with the DKC series, and giving it another character could be nice. (DKC2 >>>>>>>>). She's got potential to be pretty interesting, and I'm sure the PMBR could make magic happen with her should she appear as a playable character. Just so long as she doesn't show up in SSB4....

1/2 vote:

* Lyn- barely missed getting the upvote. FE7 is amazing, but I wound up going with Dixie in the end, since she was slated to actually be playable in SSBB. That and Fire Emblem seems to be pretty well repped-- every subseries (except Jugdral ;_; ) has at least one playable representative-- Marth for the Akaneia games, Roy for the Elibe series, and Ike for Telius, and DKC could use an extra character.

* Plusule and Minun- as an updated, reworked version of Pichu if people really don't want him. Imagine a team of two broken-tier Pichus' desynching and murdering all in their path...

* Paper Mario- This thread sold me on him. Cloning him off of Game and Watch is actually a good idea, and he could be a very interesting fighter with tons of legit tricks. ....Not to mention that the Thousand-Year Door was amazing.

* Little Mac- Punch-Out is awesome, but he could end up in SSB4, and he'd require a LOT of work. I'm still disappointed that Mike Tyson wasn't a boss in the Subspace Emissary. That would have been amazing.

* Knuckles- While I don't really think Sonic really needs any more characters, I do think Knuckles is awesome and is by far the best pick of the bunch. *salutes*

Neutral:

* Andy/Sami- with all due respect to this series and it's legacy, I'm a little concerned about how much work it would take to get a model going for these characters.

* Tingle- could be a pretty funny joke character with massive trolling potential.

- vote:

Abstain. I'd feel kinda spiteful souring another character's chances....
 

lukifer

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
75
Up votes:

Black Shadow/Ganondorf - The King of Evil deserves a moveset that's actually inspired from the Zelda games. I don't know much about Black Shadow, but even just from his aesthetics I can tell he'd be a worthy successor to Ganondorf's moveset.
Dark Samus - I don't actually know that much about her since the only Metroid game I've played is Prime, but from what other people have said I can tell she'd be a great representative for the Metroid series.
Isaac - Great series that deserves to be represented. He could also have a very unique moveset, using a sword for most of his normals and psynergy for his specials.
Paper Mario - Another great series, and as other people have mentioned he'd be quite different from Mario. Obviously he'd use his hammer for at least one attack, and he could use various party members from the games for his specials. For example, he could send out the koopa dude like Link's boomerang.
Bowser Jr. - cuz he pwns

Half votes:

Waluigi - Main reason I'm voting for him is because of the excellent PSA that was done, which shows that he can have an interesting and unique moveset even if he's never been a major character in any Mario game.
Ridley - But only if they make Meta Ridley an alt costume or a final smash or something.

Down votes:

Pichu - Pointless, gimmicky character imo. Considering how little people appear to play Pikachu already, I doubt that he'd see any more action.
Krystal - Could have a cool moveset I suppose, but we already have 3 space animals, and every time I see her I'm reminded of that terrible Star Fox game.
 

CalvinWars

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
Messages
138
Location
West Chester, PA
1 Vote

1. Pichu: He's a Melee veteran with the possibility to create an amazing moveset not yet seen in Project M: a true Glass Cannon. His moveset could be Brawl Minus level broken, but limited by his incredibly low weight and self damage setback. Another thing someone mentioned that I liked was that Pichu could be like Brawl Lucario done right. As in, at low percents, the Pichu Player would try to be safer and use non self damaging moves, but at higher percents (which would be low for every other character) start to use the high powered self damaging moves. To the Pichu player, 100% would be the same as 200%. Also, I need Backpack Pichu.

2. Young Link: He's a Melee Veteran who could be changed to become his own great character. Arm him with his Razer Sword from Majora's Mask and the Kokiri Shield. Make his boomerang a mix or a mid point between Link's Combo Boomerang and Toon Link's Poker Boomerang. Make him fire Ice Arrows. His Spin Attack could be like Young Link and Brawl Toon Link's Spin Attack. His bombs could be manavuerable like Toon Link's but hard to hit like Link's. Toon Link takes a lot more from Smash 64 Link than Young Link, so Young Link can take back his moves from Melee, like his set up, two part forward smash.

3. Ganondorf with Sword: I would really like a non clone Ganondorf, but for the love of Din, Farore, and Naryu, PLEASE DO NOT REPLACE GANONDORF WITH BLACK SHADOW! Half the fun of playing Ganondorf (my second best character) is the badassery presented by Ganondorf, which wouldn't carry over into Black Shadow. Maybe that means that Ganondorf with Sword could be Toon Ganondorf, which would be really cool if his moveset still had inspirations from OoT and TP along with the Wind Waker.

4. Ridley: Ridley is the biggest villian from one of the biggest franchises. He deserves to be in Smash, and I believe the PMBR would truly make him one of the most interesting characters ever in any Smash game.

5. Isaac: Isaac brings a lot to the table in moveset potential, and I feel that he could be super fun to play as.


1/2 Vote

Krystal: I seem to be the only one who liked Star Fox Adventures, but there are better characters to add if the PMBR is limited to 5 slots. The Staff could very interesting moveset wise, but the blaster portions of it may be hard to code.

Blaziken: My favorite Pokemon of all time. He would be so fun to play as in Smash, but again there are better characters to add.

Paper Mario: I love Paper Mario, but I'd like to see his partners oriented into his moveset, so it might not be just a simple Mr. Game and Watch Clone.

Saki: His sword/gun combo is really cool, and again could make him a cool character to play as.


Neutral

Lyn: I never really cared for her, and I don't know what she could bring to the table. The PMBR could make it work though.

Sonic Characters/ Other 3rd Party Characters: Remember that it's "Nintendo All Stars". I'd rather the PMBR not get into C&D territory from any other companies than Nintendo.
 

Anti Guy

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3. Ganondorf with Sword: I would really like a non clone Ganondorf, but for the love of Din, Farore, and Naryu, PLEASE DO NOT REPLACE GANONDORF WITH BLACK SHADOW! Half the fun of playing Ganondorf (my second best character) is the badassery presented by Ganondorf, which wouldn't carry over into Black Shadow. Maybe that means that Ganondorf with Sword could be Toon Ganondorf, which would be really cool if his moveset still had inspirations from OoT and TP along with the Wind Waker.

...wouldn't the new Ganondorf with sword inherit the old Ganondorf's badassery?
 

CalvinWars

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
Messages
138
Location
West Chester, PA
...wouldn't the new Ganondorf with sword inherit the old Ganondorf's badassery?
He could potentially, but I don't want to play Ganondorf's Moveset without Ganondorf, even if he is a clone. Black Shadow lacks the badassery, the notoriety, the feel that you are playing as the King of Evil. Black Shadow is no Ganondorf, and in no way shape or form should replace him. It would be like replacing Falco with the Masked Man because Falco is a clone with a moveset that doesn't reflect is character, as he isn't in an Arwing. It's an insult to the Masked Man's character, just like it would be an insult to Black Shadow, where, if he were added, would only be added to declone a "more important" character. You don't need Black Shadow to make a Ganondorf with Sword.
 

shadow0x0cloud

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He could potentially, but I don't want to play Ganondorf's Moveset without Ganondorf, even if he is a clone. Black Shadow lacks the badassery, the notoriety, the feel that you are playing as the King of Evil. Black Shadow is no Ganondorf, and in no way shape or form should replace him. It would be like replacing Falco with the Masked Man because Falco is a clone with a moveset that doesn't reflect is character, as he isn't in an Arwing. It's an insult to the Masked Man's character, just like it would be an insult to Black Shadow, where, if he were added, would only be added to declone a "more important" character. You don't need Black Shadow to make a Ganondorf with Sword.
Quite honestly this feeling of ganondorf being "bad ass" with his moveset is only because you have first seen him use those moves. Example, Had ganondorf never been in a SSB game and his skin, his character texture had been swapped with Black Shadow in the first place, Black shadow would now be this "bad ass" that could never be replaced by ganondorf.

I think people in general need to get past this whole, "Oh i love xxx character because of the way he feels", because frankly all you are doing is playing a moveset covered with a specific character texture. To prove it we can go on Brawl Vault and literally replace this ganondorf for pokemon trainer, or snake, ore even waluigi. He would still play the EXACT same, but just look different.

Not that I'm mad or anything, I just feel people are confusing love for the character vs. love for a moveset and vice versa.
 

l3thargy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 11, 2009
Messages
234
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New Glasgow N.S.
He could potentially, but I don't want to play Ganondorf's Moveset without Ganondorf, even if he is a clone. Black Shadow lacks the badassery, the notoriety, the feel that you are playing as the King of Evil. Black Shadow is no Ganondorf, and in no way shape or form should replace him. It would be like replacing Falco with the Masked Man because Falco is a clone with a moveset that doesn't reflect is character, as he isn't in an Arwing. It's an insult to the Masked Man's character, just like it would be an insult to Black Shadow, where, if he were added, would only be added to declone a "more important" character. You don't need Black Shadow to make a Ganondorf with Sword.
yes but by making ganon have a sword and magic based move set we'll be losing his old awesome moveset so like I and many other people agree on is giving it to black shadow that way we get another F-zero rep but also don't lose that move set, and I have a question what would stop you from putting a ganon texture back over top black shadow if you dislike the idea and it gets in?
 

CalvinWars

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Messages
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I know what you guys mean, but I still disagree. It just seems like an unneeded change. As you both said, he could easily be changed with some skins from the Brawl Vault, but why can't you just change him to Black Shadow then? Like it or not, Ganondorf is the person who embodies his move set. Would you be mad if they changed Toon Link to be Young Link just because Ocarina of Time didn't have enough representation in Brawl/ Project M? I think tht the whole argument of "representation" is so stupid. It's "Nintendo All Stars", is Black Shadow truly a Nintendo All Star? Or do you just want him to be added so that Ganondorf can get a new move set? The only reason you want Black Shadow is for Ganondorf, which I don't believe to be a valid reason.

And besides, what's wrong with just giving two Ganondorfs? I don't see the problem, but if you really do consider that a problem, then the Ganondorf with Sword could just be Toon Ganondorf.
 
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