New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Fortress]

Why are they referred to as the 'forbidden' seven, again?

 

[Anti Guy]

Why are they referred to as the 'forbidden' seven, again?

Shh, because you're not supposed to tal--*gets shot by a sniper*

 

[Shin F.]

I don't know if Ivysaur's Up B is possible. I prefer your idea of DK's hand slap. It can work practically identically but with just a different animation (Isaac holding his sword or hand to the ground... he doesn't even need to bounce up and down).

Spire would work as a B. Maybe it can come from both sides, kinda like a V or X around him. The key is differentiating it from Down B (Quake). Maybe it could stick out higher and act as more anti-air attack.

Ragnarok shouldn't be fire red... that's Venus psynergy. It'd have to be yellow.

I still think throwing out a little ghoul that returns to him (i.e. modified boomerang) would be a good side B because it gives him some range for spacing. It also represents his one undead series

Ah, you're right. I assumed the fire was red because of the icon on the wiki, but then I watched the vid. Yellow is much better for Ragnarok.

I pretty much imagined Spire as being high enough to deter any aerial approaches, but Quake as reaching very far horizontally and not very far into the air. I like the idea of the Spires coming up in an X formation. That's pretty good. The ghoul works as well, of course.

I actually imagined Growth as Isaac firing a vine out of his hand/sleeve Spider-Man style

Of course, if it indeed isn't possible, he could possibly use a modified form of Gaia. The beam of energy could fire him up along with chunks of earth, or he could form some earth beneath himself and jump off of it like Sonic's Spring Jump. The earth could crash back down and break when it hits something.

Why are they referred to as the 'forbidden' seven, again?

There wasn't any way to unlock them using code at the time they were discovered - their fighter data was too incomplete, or just plain missing. Of course, they can be imported easily now as costumes if nothing else, but back in those days it was grueling just to edit textures. You had to burn a disc each time you added a new hack just to use them, and every single one required hexing... I remember being so impressed and awestruck by Syntax Error's hacks back then.

 

[arcticfox8]

sure it does. plusle and minun were going to originally replace pichu, but they didn't make through development.

Nope nope nope. Nope nop.nop
If you paid any attention to the official alt costume rules you would know that if its not the same character it can't be a costume. No matter what your fan theories say. Rules are rules

 

[Fortress]

Nope nope nope. Nope nop.nop
If you paid any attention to the official alt costume rules you would know that if its not the same character it can't be a costume. No matter what your fan theories say. Rules are rules

Granted, you have a point, but I'm pretty sure it's more than a fan theory. Their names show up in the game's data.

 

[arcticfox8]

Granted, you have a point, but I'm pretty sure it's more than a fan theory. Their names show up in the game's data.

Do their names show up saying "HEY YO WE WERE GONNA REPLACE PICHU BUT WE DIDN'T IDK LOL"

 

[Fortress]

Basically...? I thought that it was, you know, implied seeing as they aren't in the game.

 

[Generically Epic]

Nope nope nope. Nope nop.nop
If you paid any attention to the official alt costume rules you would know that if its not the same character it can't be a costume. No matter what your fan theories say. Rules are rules

you can still put the color scheme on them. =_=; They put an aerodactyl scheme on charizard, a mew color scheme on squirtle, and a gengar color scheme on ivysaur. Having one of them be colored like shiny pichu and the other like a normal pichu would be completely acceptable.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

So no one else for Mach Rider?

 

[arcticfox8]

you can still put the color scheme on them. =_=; They put an aerodactyl scheme on charizard, a mew color scheme on squirtle, and a gengar color scheme on ivysaur. Having one of them be colored like shiny pichu and the other like a normal pichu would be completely acceptable.

Yes, a color would work. Not a whole damn costume.

 

[Generically Epic]

Yes, a color would work. Not a whole damn costume.

I mean it's possible. Not officially, but it is possible if plusle and minum were made.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Blah no one likes Mach Rider

Okay so what does everyone think about Tabuu.. anyone think he may be a possible candidate since he already has a model? I'm thinking it would be super cool and interestiing if the PMBR added him as the first ever 100% original to Smash Bros character to be playable.

 

[Anti Guy]

Blah no one likes Mach Rider

Okay so what does everyone think about Tabuu.. anyone think he may be a possible candidate since he already has a model? I'm thinking it would be super cool and interestiing if the PMBR added him as the first ever 100% original to Smash Bros character to be playable.

No, not really... I don't think any Subspace Emissary characters should be a candidate. Especially not Tabuu, since he's supposed to be godlike. Either way, it's a game for Nintendo all stars, not for characters/minions that just appeared in this game's story mode.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

No, not really... I don't think any Subspace Emissary characters should be a candidate. Especially not Tabuu, since he's supposed to be godlike. Either way, it's a game for Nintendo all stars, not for characters/minions that just appeared in this game's story mode.

Yeah, but hes the games main antagonist, so I feel like he wouldn't be that out there.
And as for the god like part, we can easily just imagine that since he was defeated in the game, he lost his divine power and now is only mediocre lol.

 

[Solbliminal]

Yeah, but hes the games main antagonist, so I feel like he wouldn't be that out there.
And as for the god like part, we can easily just imagine that since he was defeated in the game, he lost his divine power and now is only mediocre lol.

Or dead.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Or dead.

Lol.. but he was so powerful that he survived
Use your imagination!

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Or dead.

What is he anyway? I mean Master Hand is the god who (literally) sewed the fabric of the universe and everyone in it together, but who/what is tabuu?

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Master Hand is the god who (literally) sewed the fabric of the universe and everyone in it together

Okay, what fanfic did you rip that line out of? Jesus Christ, there ain't THAT much background story to Smash Bros.

 

[Anti Guy]

Yeah, but hes the games main antagonist, so I feel like he wouldn't be that out there.
And as for the god like part, we can easily just imagine that since he was defeated in the game, he lost his divine power and now is only mediocre lol.

Meh. It's digging deep to find reasons. That's what I don't get here, and what's been going on lately. People trying to dig deeper and deeper for more obscure and random characters. Why? We already have a sizeable list of really strong candidates, and then a couple that have been showing up more frequently (like Red and Tetra). Bringing up characters like Tabuu won't really do anything because they won't even place anywhere close to the big names already out there. I'd rather keep discussion to characters that are actually attracting popular support already because the list is seriously already big enough as it is. There are 5 character slots, and we have like 30 characters fighting for those spots. We really don't need to be digging for more, especially ones that haven't come up after 78 pages of banter

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Okay, what fanfic did you rip that line out of? Jesus Christ, there ain't THAT much background story to Smash Bros.

Well in 64 Master Hand moves and animates the dolls so you can fight one another so it`s safe to say he made them.

 

[shinhed-echi]

If Master Hand represents the hand of the kid who plays with the figures/trophies, Taboo represents the parent who wants to take the toys away from the kid for whatever reason.

Not sure how I feel about any of the SSE characters, though. I honestly prefer a balanced Master Hand who in one way or another has been playable in both SSB64 and Melee.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

What is he anyway? I mean Master Hand is the god who (literally) sewed the fabric of the universe and everyone in it together, but who/what is tabuu?

I'm pretty sure based on the opening scene in SSB64, master hand is a human hand (or possibly Marios hand) who takes trophy/toy versions of characters and plays with them in his room.

Tabuu seems to be some alternate dimensional being who decided to try and take over the smash bros world. I don't think there was too much thought put into either character though.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Well in 64 Master Hand moves and animates the dolls so you can fight one another so it`s safe to say he made them.

No, it isn't. That's just plain silly. They're dolls in a toybox that a little kid plays with and Master Hand in the first game has been said to represent said kid playing with said toys.

And what doe that matter now, anyway? It's been the World of Trophies ever since Melee came around. And EVERYONE is a trophy.

 

[Fortress]

Wait, you're telling me that M. Hand isn't this guy?

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

No, it isn't. That's just plain silly. They're dolls in a toybox that a little kid plays with and Master Hand in the first game has been said to represent said kid playing with said toys.

And what doe that matter now, anyway? It's been the World of Trophies ever since Melee came around. And EVERYONE is a trophy.

Well, in many ways, a kid playing with toys and creating a imaginary world is just like what a god does. A god creates a world much like a kid creates a "world" out of blocks and legos and paper with drawings on it or a game designer creates a world with some 1s and 0s.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Well, in many ways, a kid playing with toys and creating a imaginary world is just like what a god does. A god creates a world much like a kid creates a "world" out of blocks and legos and paper with drawings on it or a game designer creates a world with some 1s and 0s.

What the **** are you even talking about? -.o

Enough "god" theorycraft. Back to Tabuu and Master Hand.

Though speaking of bosses, while it'd never happen, I'd honestly prefer a playable Giga Bowser that isn't a Final Smash again.

 

[Fortress]

a game designer creates a world with some 1s and 0s.

Actually, you're thinking of the dudes who make the Wii able to do all of the stuff to make it so the game designers can do the stuff they want to.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Meh. It's digging deep to find reasons. That's what I don't get here, and what's been going on lately. People trying to dig deeper and deeper for more obscure and random characters. Why? We already have a sizeable list of really strong candidates, and then a couple that have been showing up more frequently (like Red and Tetra). Bringing up characters like Tabuu won't really do anything because they won't even place anywhere close to the big names already out there. I'd rather keep discussion to characters that are actually attracting popular support already because the list is seriously already big enough as it is. There are 5 character slots, and we have like 30 characters fighting for those spots. We really don't need to be digging for more, especially ones that haven't come up after 78 pages of banter

Ya I guess I can see what you mean. The reason I started talking about mach rider was because he would be a nice character to use and make a completely original move set for - the way Nintendo came up with C falcons moves. Another character like that would be cool to see. And the bigger reason i wrote up the move set was because I'm looking for possible characters that could use different types of "whip" grappling moves. I really really wana see that in P:M. Kratos, Scorpion or Ivy would be so great in Smash bros (as far as original move sets in the smash bros world go - obviously they don't belong in a smash bros game, but that's why I'm looking for an alternative that could work).

Edit: Would Krystal be able to use any sort of long distance grappling move? I haven't played that game at all so I don't know much about her. What would her move set be like.. besides using a staff.

 

[Solbliminal]

Enough of Subspace. More about Sakurai's Cat please.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Enough of Subspace. More about Sakurai's Cat please.

 

[splat]

Blah no one likes Mach Rider

Mach Rider is one of my top hopefuls for Smash 4, hadn't even considered him for PM.

I would think it's awesome, but he'd need a new design based on blue/red suit with the white helmet (the one from his game) as opposed to the generic biker design he got in Melee.

 

[arcticfox8]

If Bandana Dee gets in your avi needs to be an alt color for him. That is all.

 

[Inawordyes]

So, no Slippy talk? I think it's sad that Slippy - and Mach Rider to a lesser extent, and Tetra as well when she was brought up a few pages ago, IIRC; all three of which are reasonably good characters to at least talk about - got passed over for more Pichu discussion/arguing and Master Hand/Tabuu talk (let's be honest, neither character has the least bit of chance to taking a clone slot away from far more deserving characters). I think there are far more likely characters than those three, and I doubt in the end that they may make it in, but I'm tired of seeing a rehash of the Piachu/Ganondorf-Black Shadow discussions and even of the Lyn/Isaac/Sukapon talk (and I'm a fan of and support all three for inclusion), and I'd rather talk about other plausible characters, even if there isn't ultimately much chance of them getting in in the end compared to others.

Maybe I didn't do a good job of explaining what I mean, haha, but on the other hand, hopefully I did.

 

[Anti Guy]

So, no Slippy talk? I think it's sad that Slippy - and Mach Rider to a lesser extent, and Tetra as well when she was brought up a few pages ago, IIRC; all three of which are reasonably good characters to at least talk about - got passed over for more Pichu discussion/arguing and Master Hand/Tabuu talk (let's be honest, neither character has the least bit of chance to taking a clone slot away from far more deserving characters). I think there are far more likely characters than those three, and I doubt in the end that they may make it in, but I'm tired of seeing a rehash of the Piachu/Ganondorf-Black Shadow discussions and even of the Lyn/Isaac/Sukapon talk (and I'm a fan of and support all three for inclusion), and I'd rather talk about other plausible characters, even if there isn't ultimately much chance of them getting in in the end compared to others.

Maybe I didn't do a good job of explaining what I mean, haha, but on the other hand, hopefully I did.

The thing about Slippy... we have three Spacies. We really don't need another. The series doesn't deserve that many characters, and we already have enough movesets in that line. And we really don't need two clones of one character. I think if we saw a video of a Slippy reveal, it honestly wouldn't generate much hype outside a small group of people (especially that arcticfox guy). The average reaction would probably be "another? Why?" Not a good way to use up several hundred hours of work.

Mach Rider, I dunno. I feel like he needs to involve his bike to bring something to the table. And as long as he can steal Wario's bike, then that's possible.

And I'm neutral about Tetra. I honestly don't really see her fitting in though.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Can I give Isaac and Lyn all my votes? No?

Isaac, Lyn and Dark Samus it is then.

And we seriously don't need Pichu.

 

[arcticfox8]

If I saw a Slippy reveal I'd be frozen in a hype-filled YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
But yeah I understand he isn't that popular, but he's one of the best clone candidates due to ease of cloning and how little backlash he'd get for being a clone. People give Spacies a lot of flack but they're some of the most played characters in tournament so they must be doing something right.

 

[Chzrm3]

The thing about Slippy... we have three Spacies. We really don't need another. The series doesn't deserve that many characters, and we already have enough movesets in that line.

I couldn't disagree more, sorry! Spacies are something wholly unique to Smash. They're immensely popular and their playstyle is kind of an encapsulation of everything that's great about Smash Bros.

"The series doesn't deserve that many characters" is pretty hard to quantify, too. Everyone seems to be on board with Lyn being added into the game. Unless you can give me a thorough mathematical breakdown as to why Fire Emblem "deserves" 4 characters and Star Fox only "deserves" 3, I don't see that as a reason to keep a character out. The way they'd fight, and what PM could do with them, matters far more to the mod than anything else.

Taking that a step further, there's no reason for Slippy, Peppy, Krystal, Leon, or any other potential Spacie to be a clone. It could be a chance for the PM to do a totally original moveset, working with the spacie core kit - a blaster, a reflector, being heavier than a rock, having crazy martial arts skills, a dashing Side-B, and an Up-B that's easier to gimp than most, giving them a much-needed weakness.

But even if the next Spacie was a clone, it'd still be awesome. I'd actually love a faster, quicker Wolf (or if that would be obscene, a slower one! whichever works better haha).

Spacies are some of the most fun characters to watch, too. Have you seen Chillen's Wolf? Man, it's beautiful. Something about shines and how they combo so smoothly is just gorgeous. I'd love to see Slippy dunking fools or Peppy stringing together nasty combos. Just thinking about this makes me shiver with hype-ticipation. I never got into playing Fox or Falco, but I always love to watch them in tournies.

I think moreso than games, franchises, reps, who deserves what, who's relevant, who made the most money, or any of that other speculative Smash talk, PM as an experience would benefit from an additional Spacie playstyle, custom made by the PMBR.

 

[trojanpooh]

I personally hate the spacie archetype and would much rather see clones of characters who don't have clones in Brawl yet. If a 4th spacie needed to be added though, it better be Peppy or Leon.

 

[Anti Guy]

I couldn't disagree more, sorry! Spacies are something wholly unique to Smash. They're immensely popular and their playstyle is kind of an encapsulation of everything that's great about Smash Bros.

"The series doesn't deserve that many characters" is pretty hard to quantify, too. Everyone seems to be on board with Lyn being added into the game. Unless you can give me a thorough mathematical breakdown as to why Fire Emblem "deserves" 4 characters and Star Fox only "deserves" 3, I don't see that as a reason to keep a character out. The way they'd fight, and what PM could do with them, matters far more to the mod than anything else.

Alright here's some data then.

Star Fox has 7 releases, including one remake (64 3D). Fire Emblem has 13, including two remakes. Now sales.

Star Fox hasn't been very popular since Star Fox 64 (1997), which has sold 4.03 million copies. Since then, Adventures (2002) sold 1.87, and Assault (2005) 1.08 million. 64 3D (2011) sold 0.73 million, and Command (2006) sold 0.51 million. Compare this to another mid-level series like Metroid, which sold 17.59 million copies total (with its most successful pre-Gamecube titles being Metroid, Metroid II, and Super Metroid, totalling 6 million). Star Fox sold 11.21 million total, but 7 million of those were from its pre-Gamecube titles.

Main point there: Star Fox's main success was from 64 and hasn't been very popular since then, i.e. decline

Fire Emblem actually hasn't been performing that well either. Total sales were 6.68 million. Awakening (2012) has sold 1.05 million so far, followed by Fire Emblem 7 (2003) with 0.97 million, Sacred Stones (2004) 0.89 million. After its SNES titles, Fire Emblem has sold around 5 million copies. Star Fox has sold around 4 million since Star Fox 64.

Star Fox's most recent title, 64 3D was in 2011 and has sold 0.73 million copies. Fire Emblem's most recent title, FE Awakening was in 2012 and has sold 1.05 million copies (keep in mind the year difference).

Key points: Star Fox's main success was way back with 64 in 1997. So most of its current popularity stems from nostalgia. Regardless, it was a very successful title, but we already have three characters coming from Star Fox as it is: Fox, Falco, and Wolf. Fire Emblem hasn't been doing much better, but it's a more sizable series and has been doing slightly better in the last decade.

Slippy vs. Lyn:

Slippy is the 4th member of his team. We're digging deep into secondary characters here. You might as well argue for Waluigi too then (as he "completes" the "plumbers"), or Dixie and Kiddy and Lanky, or one of the Earthbound/Mother party members... or you get the idea. The point I'm making is you're going far away from NIntendo all-stars to talking about (Insert game name here) All Stars. You're reaching out and advocating for moons instead of planets.

As for Lyn, she's at least one of the primary characters of her game. The primary character is too close to Roy, so he's not even considered.

Now on to the game.

Star Fox and Fire Emblem currently both have three characters each.

All of the Spaces are based around the same fundamental moveset, especially the B moves, and are mainly differentiated on their physics and attack properties. Wolf deviates quite a bit in his regular attacks, so he's not a true clone.

Marth and Roy are clones. Ike is totally different, only sharing a counter.

Slippy would be adding more of the same core moveset. He would also have different physics and attack properties, but the core would still be the same. Even if he were to be cloned off Wolf, that would still hold true.

Lyn would either be original or cloned off Ike or someone else like Sheik (Ike makes the most sense to me because he's sword-based. They would just need to change a few attacks around, especially any two-handed ones). She's also one of those characters that has an disproportionately large fanbase, as you can see from the polling results so far. Keep in mind that I don't really advocate either. But I'm doing it for the sake of comparison that you asked for.

Taking that a step further, there's no reason for Slippy, Peppy, Krystal, Leon, or any other potential Spacie to be a clone. It could be a chance for the PM to do a totally original moveset, working with the spacie core kit - a blaster, a reflector, being heavier than a rock, having crazy martial arts skills, a dashing Side-B, and an Up-B that's easier to gimp than most, giving them a much-needed weakness.

But even if the next Spacie was a clone, it'd still be awesome. I'd actually love a faster, quicker Wolf (or if that would be obscene, a slower one! whichever works better haha).

If Slippy were to be uncloned as possible, that takes much more work. In that case you lose most of his validity because he's frankly not a strong character compared to other candidates for original movesets.

Also, the moveset should generally not be a strong point for a character's candidacy. Why? Because ALL new characters bring in a new moveset! "This character's moveset would be new!" So would everyone else's. The only time it might make a substantial difference is if that moveset is so much different than what we already have... and that's extremely difficult since it's hard to create and implement new moves.

So if we're looking at clones, one of the big things we want to see is how different they can be from the original. Falco is like an inverted, fast-falling Fox. He has more strength in his down attacks, while Fox is stronger in his up attacks. Ganondorf is slow and strong while Falcon is fast and not as strong. Good clone candidates here will turn the same moveset into something new... like Dark Samus would be a fast-paced version of Samus. Adding Slippy when there is already a clone and a half clone is what we call overkill. Why clone someone who has already been cloned, when you can clone someone who hasn't? And again, if you're not going to clone, then Slippy's value plummets to nothing.

Spacies are some of the most fun characters to watch, too. Have you seen Chillen's Wolf? Man, it's beautiful. Something about shines and how they combo so smoothly is just gorgeous. I'd love to see Slippy dunking fools or Peppy stringing together nasty combos. Just thinking about this makes me shiver with hype-ticipation. I never got into playing Fox or Falco, but I always love to watch them in tournies.

Sure, add more Spacies who already dominate the top echelon. That certainly would make the game a lot more interesting and varied... And you wonder why people make fun of Street Fighter and all its shoto-clones.

I think moreso than games, franchises, reps, who deserves what, who's relevant, who made the most money, or any of that other speculative Smash talk, PM as an experience would benefit from an additional Spacie playstyle, custom made by the PMBR.

So on the grounds of games, franchises, reps, who deserves what, relevance, money, and most importantly game play... I think Slippy doesn't really add much at all to PM as an experience. And again, you're digging deep into side characters when there are so many candidates that have more importance and more interesting possibilities.

 

[Generically Epic]

If they were to add another fire emblem character, I'd rather see a tactician being used with a sword and magic... FE's magic isn't represented well in the smash...

Unless Slippy has a crazy good wavedash, I really don't think we should even be talking about him being added. We have enough Spacie mains.... There's a reason the No items, "FOX ONLY, " final destination meme exists...