New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[arcticfox8]

As negatively received as they are, people still voted and half-voted for them.

They can stay.

Well, Knuckles at least.
RIP Tails and Shadow

 

[JCOnyx]

I'm actually kinda inclined to agree that character with costumes that resemble a CE candidate should probably be removed once we reset the votes.

I hope this doesn't remove Masked Man/Claus though...

TBH, the PMDT could just include a different costume once that character is introduced though. Seems like a waste to make a new costume just to scrap it though.

 

[Shin F.]

I'm actually kinda inclined to agree that character with costumes that resemble a CE candidate should probably be removed once we reset the votes.

I hope this doesn't remove Masked Man/Claus though...

TBH, the PMDT could just include a different costume once that character is introduced though. Seems like a waste to make a new costume just to scrap it though.

We could create a separate category for people who want costumes to be upgraded to characters.

In any case, I'd say Masked Man shouldn't be removed, since that's not what Lucas' alternate costume actually is. It's actually a set of clothes he wears in Mother 3's that resembles Masked Man's.

Spoiler

 

[GunBuster]

I just don't want any more "Yeah he's kinda cool" half-votes.
I want a legitimate measure of how much people want certain characters in PM.

And I still think it's a good idea to narrow it down to 30 or so characters. Maybe knock it down to 28 because it's divisible by 4. We could have 7 tiers of popularity.

this is why a points tally > upvote/downvotesystem. you can't just go "uuuh I guess" on a character halfway through.

You likely won't get those any more.

are you kidding me? people will ALWAYS be dumb on the internet.

also i think we're perfectly in our bounds to cut characters like Rawk Hawk who was a stupid idea to begin with and the characters who already have alts based on them (ie. 2/3ds of the Sanic tier).

 

[AuraShaman]

The problem with the current downvote system is that people downvote for stupid reasons.
I downvote [insert name here] because he looks like an anime character, despite the fact that I can't point why it is bad to look like an anime character. Heck, Link and Zelda look like anime characters. Everybody looks like anime characters if you choose the right anime.
I downvote [insert name here] because his series is overrepresented, despite the fact that his series still have lots of interesting characters that would be awesome to play as.
I downvote [insert name here] because his artstyle wouldn't fit the game, despite the fact that I can make Solid Snake fight Mr. Game & Watch.
I downvote [insert name here] because we don't need more swordsmen, despite the fact that most of the roster is comprised of gunners and barehanded fighters.
I downvote [insert name here] because he's from the same series as a character I want, despite the fact that I should just upvote the character I want.
I downvote [insert name here] beacuse he looks like a character that's already playable, despite the fact that he's not the same character.
I downvote [insert name here] because his series doesn't need representation, despite the fact that it is a Nintendo series with its fair share of fans.
I downvote [insert name here] because he wouldn't work, despite the fact that the PMDT knows what would work and what wouldn't.
I downvote [insert name here] because he's ugly / I don't want him / I don't like him / I don't like his name / I don't like his haircut.

Lets not forget: I downvote [insert name here] because he's bratty/bland even though we got a cocky hedgehog and an oversized toy.

I downvote [insert name here] because I don't think he should even be an option, even though we got more than enough oddball characters that no one would think of.

I downvote [insert name here] because he's too big/small, even though we got a plethora of re-sized characters...


Am I fitting in, yet?

It seems pretty hard these days to go against a character without either sounding hypocritical, or unnecessary complicated.

 

[Shin F.]

are you kidding me? people will ALWAYS be dumb on the internet.

Obviously, but limiting the number of votes you can use is going to make people think about what characters they truly do support, rather than just throwing a +.5 at everything they see.

In fact, it may benefit to make Half Votes unchangeable as well, since we're fixing the characters and no new ones are likely to get changed. That would make it so people really, seriously consider who they use their votes for.

also i think we're perfectly in our bounds to cut characters like rawk hawk and the characters who already have alts based on them (ie. 2/3ds of the sanic tier).

This is something I'd be open to doing, but I still see no actual benefit to doing so. Alt costumes could easily be upgraded to characters in the case of cosplay.

It's easy to cut the characters with the fewest support but at some point if you're trying to get it down to 30 (or 28) characters, you're probably going to end up cutting out characters with legitimate support bases.

 

[GunBuster]

It's easy to cut the characters with the fewest support but at some point if you're trying to get it down to 30 (or 28) characters, you're probably going to end up cutting out characters with legitimate support bases.

well I'll admit that 30 is cutting it down quite a bit, but I was only ever using the number in that hypothetical tally (could have done the same thing with 35 or 40), but there are only 5 slots, yet 44 candidates. a logical step for any poll would be to cut it down to an actually popular/feasible pool. even If we weren't to go ahead with a point tally system for the next vote, we could still knock it down to 36 characters (which again, on a tally, could be 9 4-slot voting tiers) - surely there are 8 characters in the current poll that are either 1. dead in the water thanks to alts or 2. terrible ideas to begin with, that can be taken out.

 

[JarBear]

TBH, the PMDT could just include a different costume once that character is introduced though. Seems like a waste to make a new costume just to scrap it though.

I like that idea too for the characters who do not get added as their own character slot. The playable character who in a sense "cosplay" as a different character is neat too to give that unused character some props. Now, if there was a way to link costume to voices/announcer voice, you can really get crazy on costumes/playable characters.

 

[GunBuster]

I like that idea too for the characters who do not get added as their own character slot. The playable character who in a sense "cosplay" as a different character is neat too to give that unused character some props. Now, if there was a way to link costume to voices/announcer voice, you can really get crazy on costumes/playable characters.

actually, there is a hack on KK-MM that has sort of done this for Link. his OOT skins make use of his melee voice, and his TP skins use his brawl voice, which is pretty damn awesome. buut when either are KO'd, they default to the Melee voice. the guy's trying to work it out... i think?

 

[leekslap]

1) They are really cool aren't they?
2/3) Why?
4) They ability to walk on fluids could work as a recovery move, since air is a fluid. Invisibility would work as a evasion move (like Lucario's down b, Greninja's down b or even Sheik's up b). Bear riding wouldn't really be necessary, despite the fact that it would look cool. But, if you ever played Jump Ultimate Stars, it could work like the 3-koma helper of Katsura, from Gintama, A running-around-the-stage move. The closest thing to that in Smash would be Yoshi's forward b.
5) It's more like I'm saying why I think he deserves the slot.
6) That would actually be really cool.

Seriously though, you are making legitimate questions, you don't sound like a hater, you actually sound like you are indifferent to him. Why downvote a character you are indifferent to?

1) I meant that Issac and Lyn are more important and unique than Takamaru.
2/3) Because his popcorn is too liquid for the white standards of a tall walrus
4) Noomba 1
5) Saying he's popular is legit. Saying he's in a minigame and he has a song and whatever is NOT.
6) My farts equal to the loathed death of a sea puppy aligator

I'm kind of trying to destroy Issac's competiton so I might just retract it. I also don't know who else to downvote lol

 

[Shin F.]

well I'll admit that 30 is cutting it down quite a bit, but I was only ever using the number in that hypothetical tally (could have done the same thing with 35 or 40), but there are only 5 slots, yet 44 candidates. a logical step for any poll would be to cut it down to an actually popular/feasible pool. even If we weren't to go ahead with a point tally system for the next vote, we could still knock it down to 36 characters (which again, on a tally, could be 9 4-slot voting tiers) - surely there are 8 characters in the current poll that are either 1. dead in the water thanks to alts or 2. terrible ideas to begin with, that can be taken out.

In any case, we'll look at the candidates once the next character is revealed and decide what to do, then. I'm still against the removal of any characters because of the lack in tangible benefit, but we'll see what happens when it happens.

 

[JarBear]

Man, if that can be perfected, that opens some doors! There are mods out there that easily changes the name on the selection screen, but obviously the announcer will say the original character still. If a person can find a workaround for that, it would allow different models to be used that can easily share that play style. Like Masked man for lucas, Ninten for Ness, etc.

That would be a good compromise since there is a limit of characters to make ... plus the hundreds and thousands of hours it would save too. People like costumes, a huge plus Project M has been incorporating!

 

[ElPanandero]

So no more infinite half-votes, sad.

How else will I vote for Malon!

Also, for future voting purposes, are Happy Mask Salseman and Shuckle in the game in any form?

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Glad to see that Lyn is still going strong.

In the top 5 since day 1. Keep going lyndis legion. PMDT pls.

 

[GunBuster]

So no more infinite half-votes, sad.

How else will I vote for Malon!

Another reason the tier point tallying method would be better. Every character has to be rated.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Man, if that can be perfected, that opens some doors! There are mods out there that easily changes the name on the selection screen, but obviously the announcer will say the original character still. If a person can find a workaround for that, it would allow different models to be used that can easily share that play style. Like Masked man for lucas, Ninten for Ness, etc.

That would be a good compromise since there is a limit of characters to make ... plus the hundreds and thousands of hours it would save too. People like costumes, a huge plus Project M has been incorporating!

I'd rather they didn't include separate characters as costumes even if the sounds could be changed. It just seems like a disservice to the character in question. Opinions though.

 

[Shin F.]

Another reason the tier point tallying method would be better. Every character has to be rated.

That's not necessarily a good thing. Not every voter is going to care one way or the other about every single character. Requiring them to place every single one is bound to end in a lot of arbitrary placements, which can possibly skew the data.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I'd rather they didn't include separate characters as costumes even if the sounds could be changed. It just seems like a disservice to the character in question. Opinions though.

Plus the PMBR explicitly said that characters becoming separate characters for costumes won't happen.

 

[Grey Belnades]

Glad to see that Lyn is still going strong.

In the top 5 since day 1. Keep going lyndis legion. PMDT pls.

#Lynation

 

[GunBuster]

That's not necessarily a good thing. Not every voter is going to care one way or the other about every single character. Requiring them to place every single one is bound to end in a lot of arbitrary placements, which can possibly skew the data.

There is nothing arbitrary about picking character a over character b for a tier out of personal preference. I actually find it rather stupid you have to justify a downvote.

 

[Shin F.]

There is nothing arbitrary about picking character a over character b for a tier out of personal preference.

So you're telling me you really think that everyone is going to pick a placement for every character? No one is going to come in and say, "I want Lyn, Isaac and Shadow. Those are my top 3. I hate Tails, though, so I'll put him on the bottom," and then place every other character in a random spot?

I actually find it rather stupid you have to justify a downvote.

The reason for which has already been explained.

 

[GunBuster]

So you're telling me you really think that everyone is going to pick a placement for every character? No one is going to come in and say, "I want Lyn, Isaac and Shadow. Those are my top 3. I hate Tails, though, so I'll put him on the bottom," and then place every other character in a random spot?

You're telling me people aren't already doing that in the current format?

I'm not really sure why I seem to care so much about this honestly. I know the PMDT are more than likely to go off and do what they want without regards to this thread anyway.

 

[arcticfox8]

I'm not really sure why I seem to care so much about this honestly. I know the PMDT are more than likely to go off and do what they want without regards to this thread anyway.

Most likely
I'd still like a semi-accurate poll.

 

[Shin F.]

You're telling me people aren't already doing that in the current format?

There's a difference between being allowed to vote for many characters and being forced to vote for every character. Take me for instance - I still haven't voted for or against Lyn or K Rool. Why? Because I don't care about them either way. Under the current (and proposed future) format, I just leave these two alone and that's that. Under your proposed format, I'm forced to rate them even though I don't care about them. So what do I do? I slap them wherever they fit.

Now, imagine that there are fifteen listed characters I feel this way about - which might not be entirely inaccurate. The ratings I give these fifteen characters mean nothing, and yet they can still affect the rankings of the characters despite not reflecting my feelings on them. With enough people for whom this situation is true, the results can become skewed far more so than under the current system, which only requires you to vote regarding characters you care about.

 

[CBO0tz]

Uh, this is probably a stupid question, but should the Balloon Fighter/Tom Nook really be clone characters when they're both represented by the Villager in different moves..?

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Uh, this is probably a stupid question, but should the Balloon Fighter/Tom Nook really be clone characters when they're both represented by the Villager in different moves..?

But the Villager won't be playable in Project M, so no, because it doesn't matter.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I have a question regarding Paper Mario.

Will Project M be able to use any of his partners from the games or only the ones actually in Brawl?

 

[CBO0tz]

Obviously.. It just seems silly to add CE character suggestions of characters that are already represented in Smash 4.. But then again, not having any characters that are in Smash 4 as assist trophies would mean we couldn't have a lot of trophy characters in PM due to them returning in the official game(Brawl)'s sequel..
I guess what I'm trying to say is I sorta just want both Smash 4 characters with cast members and as assist trophies, and future Project M characters to be different from one another, original and available in their own games.

I guess they will be though. What am I saying, of course they'll be original if they get added to the game.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Obviously.. It just seems silly to add CE character suggestions of characters that are already represented in Smash 4.. But then again, that would mean we couldn't have a lot of trophy characters in PM due to them returning in an official game sequel..
I guess what I'm trying to say is I sorta just want both Smash 4 characters and future Project M characters to be different from one another, original and available in their own games.

If that's the way you feel, you can vote that way. Personally I don't think it should be an official rule for voting, though.

 

[Super_Primid]

So i know i haven't been on the CEthread for long but i think that the normal system of voting HAS flaws but we fix those by pretty much telling people the right from wrong.



(also did any one miss me)

 

[Rᴏb]

Can I ask why this thread even allows voting? I've lurked here for a while and the most common "discussions" I've noticed are:

- People arguing over downvotes, with the argument usually boiling down to a difference of opinions, semantics, and other incredibly petty things.
- "oh yeah I forgot_____, +.5."
- People asking about the rules for voting and other people explaining them.
- People asking about the rules for clone engine character eligibility and other people explaining them.

Since upvotes don't need to be justified, we're left with almost 0 discussion of the actual characters being upvoted. This means we're making virtually no progress on potential movesets, programming discussion, and raising the awareness of general facts about characters. By having little bios of the popular characters in the OP, the growth of those characters gets stunted due to a lack of motivation to continue developing those characters. What's the point in discussing why Isaac would be a good choice, or what leads me to believe that Isaac is being worked on when the OP shows me that he has the most votes and tells me that his value is graded as A? I've seen someone try to begin discussions like these only to have no one reply, and I believe this is because the OP is too focused on trying to get people to vote for characters they want rather than actually talk about them.

I just think voting shouldn't be a thing, and if people want a certain character's potential to be recognized, we should have a thread that actually facilitates the discussion of character potential rather than a thread that is basically a popularity contest. By getting rid of voting, I also suspect the arguments I pointed out above to lessen to due people not feeling like their support for a character is being negated just because someone had a differing opinion that led them to downvote the same character. If the OP was changed to get rid of the whole voting system, the first thing people could read would be the rules for clone engine character eligibility which would at least help in stopping new people coming in and ignoring the giant wall that is the OP. Also, I feel like voting isn't even necessary at this point. We've got a general idea of what the people who have posted in this thread want and we are getting very close to new characters being announced. The point of the voting system doesn't really hold up anymore imo... But I also think maybe this thread could stay the same and be used for voting purposes while we have a new thread that actually promotes discussion. idk what would be easier

This is just my 2¢.

 

[Shin F.]

Can I ask why this thread even allows voting? I've lurked here for a while and the most common "discussions" I've noticed are:

- People arguing over downvotes, with the argument usually boiling down to a difference of opinions, semantics, and other incredibly petty things.
- "oh yeah I forgot_____, +.5."
- People asking about the rules for voting and other people explaining them.
- People asking about the rules for clone engine character eligibility and other people explaining them.

Since upvotes don't need to be justified, we're left with almost 0 discussion of the actual characters being upvoted. This means we're making virtually no progress on potential movesets, programming discussion, and raising the awareness of general facts about characters. By having little bios of the popular characters in the OP, the growth of those characters gets stunted due to a lack of motivation to continue developing those characters. What's the point in discussing why Isaac would be a good choice, or what leads me to believe that Isaac is being worked on when the OP shows me that he has the most votes and tells me that his value is graded as A? I've seen someone try to begin discussions like these only to have no one reply, and I believe this is because the OP is too focused on trying to get people to vote for characters they want rather than actually talk about them.

I just think voting shouldn't be a thing, and if people want a certain character's potential to be recognized, we should have a thread that actually facilitates the discussion of character potential rather than a thread that is basically a popularity contest. By getting rid of voting, I also suspect the arguments I pointed out above to lessen to due people not feeling like their support for a character is being negated just because someone had a differing opinion that led them to downvote the same character. If the OP was changed to get rid of the whole voting system, the first thing people could read would be the rules for clone engine character eligibility which would at least help in stopping new people coming in and ignoring the giant wall that is the OP. Also, I feel like voting isn't even necessary at this point. We've got a general idea of what the people who have posted in this thread want and we are getting very close to new characters being announced. The point of the voting system doesn't really hold up anymore imo... But I also think maybe this thread could stay the same and be used for voting purposes while we have a new thread that actually promotes discussion. idk what would be easier

This is just my ¢.02.

I've been thinking this myself, actually. It's pretty clear who's popular or controversial by this point. This thread will become a year old on the 20th, and I think that's more than enough time to get a pretty clear picture. In fact, I was thinking about suggesting the voting just end on the 20th since that's a pretty clean cut-off date, considering that's when it was started last year.

Granted, moveset and technical discussion here may prove to be just as fruitless as the voting. I wouldn't be surprised if some ideas from the thread made their way into an actual PM moveset, but it's not something I'd say has a large chance of happening.

 

[Rᴏb]

Granted, moveset and technical discussion here may prove to be just as fruitless as the voting. I wouldn't be surprised if some ideas from the thread made their way into an actual PM moveset, but it's not something I'd say has a large chance of happening.

You're missing the point, man. It's not about whether or not the discussion leads to somehow affecting PM's development, it's about having the discussion itself.

It would kinda be like the tier list thread except way less negative.

 

[Shin F.]

You're missing the point, man. It's not about whether or not the discussion leads to somehow affecting PM's development, it's about having the discussion itself.

It would kinda be like the tier list thread except way less negative.

Oh no, I get the point completely. Like I said, I've been thinking this way myself. I just felt it necessary to point out that the discussion may or may not have any true impact. That doesn't mean that I think it's not worth having just for the sake of it.

 

[JCOnyx]

I was thinking of this myself just yesterday as well. I came to the conclusion that the easiest way to solve the issue would be to have two seperate threads, one for discussing the possible CE candidates and one for voting.

No discussion would be allowed in the voting thread and all post would have to follow the exampled format in the OP. Following the simple 4/8/2 format we discussed (or 4/4/2 whichever we decided on), nobody would need to give reasonings for their votes and counting them would become incredibly easy and seamless for us, resulting in a more frequently updated tally. And then, with there being more of a disconnect between the two threads, peoples votes shouldn't continuously sway the current discussion. We might actually have a chance to talk about other characters besides Ridley, Pichu, Black Ganon, "Sword Users", and "Too Cloney for my Tastes" for once.

This is all in theory, and it's possible that the people who would frequent both threads would still complain every time they see a negative vote within the other thread. And the PM mods would probably never allow 2 seperate CE threads no matter how convenient it would be for us.

 

[Shadic]

And the PM mods would probably never allow 2 seperate CE threads no matter how convenient it would be for us.

Bingo.

 

[JCOnyx]

Bingo.

Thanks for the confirmation at least lol.

 

[Anti Guy]

Added Rock Hawk, Ashley, and Micaiah to the OP (Thanks to Solb and JCOnx). I also standardized the effort grading some:

C = unique. Period. Also includes clones that still require intense work (Dixie)
B = unique, but can borrow many animations, or clone that requires some more work.
A = easy clones that at most will probably only require a few tweaks.

 

[ElPanandero]

Can I ask why this thread even allows voting? I've lurked here for a while and the most common "discussions" I've noticed are:

- People arguing over downvotes, with the argument usually boiling down to a difference of opinions, semantics, and other incredibly petty things.
- "oh yeah I forgot_____, +.5."
- People asking about the rules for voting and other people explaining them.
- People asking about the rules for clone engine character eligibility and other people explaining them.

Since upvotes don't need to be justified, we're left with almost 0 discussion of the actual characters being upvoted. This means we're making virtually no progress on potential movesets, programming discussion, and raising the awareness of general facts about characters. By having little bios of the popular characters in the OP, the growth of those characters gets stunted due to a lack of motivation to continue developing those characters. What's the point in discussing why Isaac would be a good choice, or what leads me to believe that Isaac is being worked on when the OP shows me that he has the most votes and tells me that his value is graded as A? I've seen someone try to begin discussions like these only to have no one reply, and I believe this is because the OP is too focused on trying to get people to vote for characters they want rather than actually talk about them.

I just think voting shouldn't be a thing, and if people want a certain character's potential to be recognized, we should have a thread that actually facilitates the discussion of character potential rather than a thread that is basically a popularity contest. By getting rid of voting, I also suspect the arguments I pointed out above to lessen to due people not feeling like their support for a character is being negated just because someone had a differing opinion that led them to downvote the same character. If the OP was changed to get rid of the whole voting system, the first thing people could read would be the rules for clone engine character eligibility which would at least help in stopping new people coming in and ignoring the giant wall that is the OP. Also, I feel like voting isn't even necessary at this point. We've got a general idea of what the people who have posted in this thread want and we are getting very close to new characters being announced. The point of the voting system doesn't really hold up anymore imo... But I also think maybe this thread could stay the same and be used for voting purposes while we have a new thread that actually promotes discussion. idk what would be easier

This is just my 2¢.

I've been thinking this myself, actually. It's pretty clear who's popular or controversial by this point. This thread will become a year old on the 20th, and I think that's more than enough time to get a pretty clear picture. In fact, I was thinking about suggesting the voting just end on the 20th since that's a pretty clean cut-off date, considering that's when it was started last year.

Granted, moveset and technical discussion here may prove to be just as fruitless as the voting. I wouldn't be surprised if some ideas from the thread made their way into an actual PM moveset, but it's not something I'd say has a large chance of happening.

As someone who almost exclusively posted in the Brawl and Smash4 character discussion, I can tell you that all of the petty arguments and aggressive slandering, and overly defensive opinions will not stop if we take away voting. I've seen page long fights that make the dark samus one look tame. Obviously you guys have the final say, but if we take away voting to promote "real discussion" on the characters merits, that probably won't happen. If I say I don't like Dark Samus or Takamaru, everyone who loves them is gonna defend them vehemently regardless if my opinion has a vote attached.

At least that's my experience in 4ish years of only being a part of Character Discussion Threads.

 

[Shadic]

...Why would you do that to yourself?

That said, this thread already takes more effort than any other thread, so if stuff gets out of hand, just use the Report button. It's what I'm here for.

That, and self-pity.