New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Anti Guy]

The thing is that Micaiah would be another big Fire Emblem choice, but what might be her moves? Let's bring her up to discussion, because I never played FE11... yet I call myself a FE fan. For shame.

Micaiah is a Light Mage, so she mainly uses light magic. The easiest thing to do for her would be to clone Zelda. Din's fire would just turn into light. All the electrical-ish moves would be sparkly light moves. And yeah. That'd be it. After that, just modify attack parameters. Perhaps she could be like a faster version of Zelda with more combat. Or perhaps she can go the Falco-Fox route by reversing what attacks are strong and what aren't.

And of course, she can get her own Down B.

 

[Chzrm3]

I think Micaiah could be really fun, actually. There's a whole side of FE that isn't really being shown at all in terms of mages. I think if you took the same liberties that Ness/Lucas take, and give Micaiah a whole host of FE magic, she'd be really cool. So rather than just holy, work in wind/fire/lightning and even dark magic. These wouldn't all be spells, but it could work like zelda, where her uair is a big explosion, her tilts are those sparklies, etc...

Edit: Although TBH, just giving her light magic would work too, since there's no "light mage" in the game yet so it'd still be its own special role.

 

[Xinc]

Micaiah is a Light Mage, so she mainly uses light magic. The easiest thing to do for her would be to clone Zelda. Din's fire would just turn into light. All the electrical-ish moves would be sparkly light moves. And yeah. That'd be it. After that, just modify attack parameters. Perhaps she could be like a faster version of Zelda with more combat. Or perhaps she can go the Falco-Fox route by reversing what attacks are strong and what aren't.

That makes sense, but there might be too much of a similarity between two unrelaated characters.

On a side note, I'm pleasantly surprised at Lyn's votes.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

But wait I haven't talked about Isaac yet!
I liked the PSA, but I'll have to say it doesn't seem like it would carry over well to the Melee engine without some sizable changes (that's to be expected of course, that is just an example template, after all). If I really wanted to expect something really incredible I'd still say Isaac would need some sort of technique to set him apart aside from having giant disjoint hitbox attacks. Granted that's rather hard for any non-PMBR mind to determine, but still, would it hurt to discuss how he'd work if Move were somehow worked into his set, and if that would be technically feasible? I do think it makes sense for him to fairly average as far as agility and quickness goes, but in Melee you need to be careful when making those characters because they can easily fall behind the rest of the roster or focus a little too much on camping to compensate. I don't really like the idea of Isaac getting destroyed consistently, nor do I like the idea of him being far too defensive. Not that either of those seem too bad with current ideas, just something to watch for.

Now, I would also like to hear what you all have in mind for the other Fire Emblem characters, Micaiah in particular. I would be willing to consider them against Lyn if I saw decent reason to. If we're talking Zelda clones it would be neat to see an offensive version of Din's fire, like a buffed Melee version instead of a repurposed one.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

The thing is that Micaiah would be another big Fire Emblem choice, but what might be her moves? Let's bring her up to discussion, because I never played FE11... yet I call myself a FE fan. For shame.

FE11 wasn't THAT good, you ain't missing much.
Unless of course your fav game is 10.

 

[Anti Guy]

But wait I haven't talked about Isaac yet!
I liked the PSA, but I'll have to say it doesn't seem like it would carry over well to the Melee engine without some sizable changes (that's to be expected of course, that is just an example template, after all). If I really wanted to expect something really incredible I'd still say Isaac would need some sort of technique to set him apart aside from having giant disjoint hitbox attacks. Granted that's rather hard for any non-PMBR mind to determine, but still, would it hurt to discuss how he'd work if Move were somehow worked into his set, and if that would be technically feasible? I do think it makes sense for him to fairly average as far as agility and quickness goes, but in Melee you need to be careful when making those characters because they can easily fall behind the rest of the roster or focus a little too much on camping to compensate. I don't really like the idea of Isaac getting destroyed consistently, nor do I like the idea of him being far too defensive. Not that either of those seem too bad with current ideas, just something to watch for.

Now, I would also like to hear what you all have in mind for the other Fire Emblem characters, Micaiah in particular. I would be willing to consider them against Lyn if I saw decent reason to. If we're talking Zelda clones it would be neat to see an offensive version of Din's fire, like a buffed Melee version instead of a repurposed one.

Isaac has Move in that video. It's his B move.

I think for other FE characters, Lyn and Micaiah are probably the only ones even worth considering...

 

[JCOnyx]

Honestly, the biggest reason people have a problem with Micaiah is because of her low speed and defenses in game. I know smash isn't supposed to be cannon, but having a fast Micaiah sounds... odd.

But I'm all for her, as you guys know since I already posted about her within this thread.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Isaac has Move in that video. It's his B move.

I think for other FE characters, Lyn and Micaiah are probably the only ones even worth considering...

I was more referring to Move having a bit more utility than just being a projectile. Maybe it could give a little more control over your opponent's motion or something. Not just giving him the ability, but making it a little more in-depth.

I did say I was mostly interested in Micaiah, it's just that Eirika and Ephraim were brought up, and I figured if someone wanted to explain why they would be good choices that would be interesting.

 

[Anti Guy]

Honestly, the biggest reason people have a problem with Micaiah is because of her low speed and defenses in game. I know smash isn't supposed to be cannon, but having a fast Micaiah sounds... odd.

But I'm all for her, as you guys know since I already posted about her within this thread.

Marth wasn't particularly fast (at least not that I remember) in his games, and Ike definitely wasn't a slow powerhouse.

As for Eirika and Ephraim... They really don't have much going for them. Their game wasn't anything groundbreaking. They are just one of many lords in the series. The main reason cited for them is that Ephraim has a spear. That's not a legitimate reason. Same goes for Hector. I'm not even sure what Eirika brings to the table. At least for Micaiah, she was the most recent lord (as of Brawl), so she has that at least.

 

[JCOnyx]

Marth wasn't particularly fast (at least not that I remember) in his games, and Ike definitely wasn't a slow powerhouse.

I'd argue that Marth isn't particularly fast in smash, at least movement wise, but that would be a little off topic. Ike in FE10 isn't really comparable to his smash incarnation, but I'd argue he matches FE11 Ike pretty well, especially with his P:M buffs.

Honestly, if they want to make Micaiah a less "control" oriented Zelda and turn her into a speed demon, I'm all for it. Also, I need another magic user.

NEED... ONE.

 

[Friesnchip]

I was more referring to Move having a bit more utility than just being a projectile. Maybe it could give a little more control over your opponent's motion or something. Not just giving him the ability, but making it a little more in-depth.

Ideally, I'd like Move (or the neutral B) to have multiple attack options; like Push (to move an enemy backwards), Lift (to move an enemy into the air, setting up for combo), and Grab (to pull the enemy closer). These are all available psynergies in the game, for those who haven't played. Isaac's neutral special could almost act like Roy's new Double Edge Dance finishers, minus the initial combo.

Oh, and I'm not suggesting that Isaac have a long range grab as a special, I would image this attack to be a one hit move with a directional hit-box... although who knows if this is a possibility within the limitations of the clone engine. It might be possible to disguise if Isaac uses the attack in one animation, changing the type of Move variation with the directional input, but it would be better if Isaac could use the special and then move himself after a few frames (or after the attack hitting) while the attack was still in motion, to actually make use of a possible set-up. Such a thing would require implementing articles though, which is tricky.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

That's similar to what I had in mind. It would save Isaac from being just another spacing character and make playing him a little more multi-dimensional because you'd have to take into account where you can move, where your opponent can move, and where you can move your opponent.

I am a little unsure on how much hitstun would be appropriate on such a move, though. There's probably a fine line between interesting positioning tool and "free combos woohoo." If Isaac is given so much control over his opponent's movements, it really shouldn't disrupt them too much or put them in a definitively terrible position every time. I could see a good example as being, Isaac can out-prioritize his opponent from below, and they are less effective at stopping approaches from above, so he uses lift to gain a positional advantage, not necessarily as a combo (although it certainly could work like that). He could also use pull to bring an opponent within the range of his earth synergy while staying out of range of their attacks while not necessarily getting a free pull -> smash combo, as a more concrete example.
I was also thinking he could have a down variant for grounding airborne opponents. Throwing off a bair-spamming Jigglypuff or Fox's Nairplane with a well timed push downwards. That would be something, alright. Probably would be a little dumb if it were able to force a tech, though, so it would need to have pushback instead of knockback, or if it were possible it could have set pushback with a little knockback as well so it would cause some hitstun. The knockback could slightly scale or otherwise cause enough hitstun to set up some combos at higher %s, for example. Just some speculation on my part, though.

Honestly, given his basis on Melee-range sword attacks and medium-range psynergy attacks, just having push would be kind of useless besides having an edgeguard or edgeguard set up.

 

[Deleted member]

I certainly like the idea of Isaac having different specials depending on whether he's grounded or in mid-air. It certainly sets him aside from other characters like that. Also, that PSA proves he is indeed do-able, nice one.

As for Michaia, the biggest problem with Michaia is that she's very much unliked by FE fans, I don't have the link anymore, but I ran a poll early this year, where people voted for their favorite FE lords, they were allowed to vote for as many as they liked, and Michaia was just barely above the lesser known Japanese lords in terms of popularity, she was actually below Marth.

The most popular lords were the following iirc:
Ike
Lucina
Lyn (tied for 3rd)
Hector (tied for 3rd)
Chrom
Ephriam

The poll reached over 4000 votes, and I ran it across SWF, 4chan, reddit, NeoGAF, Gonintendo, GameFAQs, Serene's Forest, ScrewAttack, IGN, etc... for about 3 months. So it was indeed a very varied and accurate sample of the western opinions on FE lords, and this was just during the FEA hype mind you, so of course the FE13 lords would score so high. That aside, it was evidence that of which lords are most liked in the west, and which lords aren't, speaking STRICTLY in terms of the FE fanbase mind you, not Smash. But even on here, for the Smash 4 polls, Lyn dwarves Michaia in terms of support. Michaia is overall a very niche character with a strong backlash from the FE fanbase.

Now, in terms of what she can do, we'll I played FE10, she's a light mage, a mediocre light mage, but a light mage none-the-less. She would basically funcion like a much faster Zelda in my mind, with some runes, and status moves. Perhaps a form of stun/paralysis, though, that's technically not canon in FE series. Oh, and some healing moves ofc.

As for Ephriam and Eirika, both are pretty solid, and Eph is more popular than his sister, he also has the benefit of a unique weapon, but once again, in terms of overall popularity, Lyn is above him. The only characters that can match Lyn in terms of potential hype would be Lucina and Hector, and I would say Lucina's hype is rather inflated tbh, I would actually like to run another poll in the future once the games have been out for a long time, to really measure how popular Lucina and Chrom really are. Hector on the other hand, pretty much tied with Lyn for 3rd place in the poll, so he'd be a solid choice overall. Only deal is, Ike is already a sort of 'heavy' character, and can use axes as well (which I think he should, but that's just me), and 2, Lyn has an Assist Trophy, ergo, a good starting model to work on. The other potential FE lords don't, which means more work ofc.


Overall though, I mostly support Lyn cause I have a very clear idea of what she'd fight like, if any Michaia, Hector, or Ehpriam supporters got any cool ideas they'd like to share, I'd be up for listening, just, if you're gonna make a moveset, I'd like to see one that wholly represents their overall playstyle with combos and all.

 

[arcticfox8]

An idea for Isaac's Move Standard B working from my basic idea from last page. While he's holding B he's vulnerable. You could hit the attack button while holding for Push, the grab button for Grab, and the jump button for Lift. Push would cancel the multi-hit properties of Move into a horizontal forward launch. Lift would launch opponents up. Grab would grab the opponent and throws them backwards/towards Isaac. Thoughts?

 

[Saito]

The most popular lords were the following iirc:
Ike
Lucina
Lyn (tied for 3rd)
Hector (tied for 3rd)
Chrom
Ephriam

Damn you nintendo for taking away my dream.

I would of took Lucina as a full marth replacement.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Overall though, I mostly support Lyn cause I have a very clear idea of what she'd fight like

Just thought I'd ask a little about more about your envisioned moveset. I liked your overall style/paradigm, I just would like to ask a few questions.

EDIT: Most of this is referring to ManlySpirit's proposed moveset for Lyn back on page 13. You should probably go read that if you haven't.

When you say that Lyn would be like a faster Marth, are you referring to movement, attack frame data, or both? I guess the problem I have here is that Marth already has a crazy good starting frames on just about all of his attacks, and I don't know if it's a good idea to make a character even better in that regard. A lesser problem that I have is just that it doesn't make much sense to me to have a set based on starting with the blade sheathed and say you can still get off an attack faster attack than a blade-at-the-ready style. I think she should probably have a little more startup on her moves, at the very least the ones started with the blade sheathed, and have her frame data roughly equalized to Marth by the fact that she swings through the arcing motions extremely quickly, possibly with earlier IASA or less endlag on her attacks. I peronally like the idea of having rather high endlag because she will sheath the blade after each attack, but the sheathing animation would be interruptible, giving her a huge IASA window. If you wanted to get really fancy, attacking out of IASA could reduce startup on moves, since she hasn't sheathed her sword yet, but that might be a little too difficult to implement.

Roy somewhat fits the description of "more combo-oriented fast faller sword character," too, although he's arguably more balanced with spacing than what you are describing for Lyn. All the same, does your envisioned playstyle vary much now that Roy has been added? For me the question has become whether Lyn can be fit between any two characters and still have a truly unique playstyle, and as I said before, just putting her before Marth's extremes doesn't strike me as the most wonderful idea.

Giving Lyn the flat out strongest counter now seems slightly overzealous to me. All the other FE characters have some sort of balance on their counter; Marth has fixed damage, but great duration and a starting frame (5), Ike has a poor starting frame (10), but good duration and x1.2 damage scaling, and Roy has x1.5 scaling, a starting frame at 8, and poor duration. Doesn't Marth's vBrawl counter have good frames, a minumum damage, and x1.1 scaling? Lyn's could be this but instead have knockback scale like Ike's, regardless of minimum damage, so it isn't quite effective as Marth's against recoveries. It would still have the advantage of being effective against both strong and multi-hit moves, and would keep the utility of Marth's as a combo-breaker, but also Ike's and Roy's as a predict and punish tool. Overall, I'm all for it having more utility so she can base her metagame around it more, but not for blatantly giving it more power.

In spite of all of this I would like to clarify that Lyn is still one of my top choices, I'd just like to hear if you have anything to say about these points.

An idea for Isaac's Move Standard B working from my basic idea from last page. While he's holding B he's vulnerable. You could hit the attack button while holding for Push, the grab button for Grab, and the jump button for Lift. Push would cancel the multi-hit properties of Move into a horizontal forward launch. Lift would launch opponents up. Grab would grab the opponent and throws them backwards/towards Isaac. Thoughts?

Not too keen on having it work right into a command grab, mainly because that isn't possible without having a command grab available by cloning. I like the idea of having to hold the B button so that Isaac has finer control over the distance he moves the opponent. Whether this is achieved by multiple hits or a constant push, or both, as I was discussing before, is something I'm unsure of.
As for controls, I would say it would work best to hold B and use the control stick to move the hand, and while moving release B to leave your opponent where they are or press A or Z with a direction to end the move with a push in whichever direction you chose. Back and up would specifically have to snag your opponent, because simply pushing backwards wouldn't work. This could be achieved by having the hand make a scooping motion forwards before pulling back or downwards before pulling up.

 

[Deleted member]

Just thought I'd ask a little about more about your envisioned moveset. I liked your overall style/paradigm, I just would like to ask a few questions.

Sure thing man, I'll do my best to explain what I envision.

When you say that Lyn would be like a faster Marth, are you referring to movement, attack frame data, or both? I guess the problem I have here is that Marth already has a crazy good starting frames on just about all of his attacks, and I don't know if it's a good idea to make a character even better in that regard. A lesser problem that I have is just that it doesn't make much sense to me to have a set based on starting with the blade sheathed and say you can still get off an attack faster attack than a blade-at-the-ready style. I think she should probably have a little more startup on her moves, at the very least the ones started with the blade sheathed, and have her frame data roughly equalized to Marth by the fact that she swings through the arcing motions extremely quickly, possibly with earlier IASA or less endlag on her attacks. I peronally like the idea of having rather high endlag because she will sheath the blade after each attack, but the sheathing animation would be interruptible, giving her a huge IASA window. If you wanted to get really fancy, attacking out of IASA could reduce startup on moves, since she hasn't sheathed her sword yet, but that might be a little too difficult to implement.

The idea that I had was a quicker running speed than Marth, and quicker startup on attacks than Marth, yes, balloujutsu is a lightning fast attack, believe it or not, despite being sheathed, the technique used to draw the sword makes for some very quick strikes. In fiction, it's always portrayed as being unbelievably fast. She would have the drawback of a slow ending lag, about as slow as Ike I'd say, maybe a bit slower, as she resheathes her sword. So yes, her playstyle would be much like you said, like Lucario, she'd work through cancelable moves, thus removing the ending lag on her attacks, by flowing from one move to an other based on what she uses, she'd have combo branches much like the fighters in games such as Guilty Gear and Blazblue. So yeah, she'd be a character with a high learning curve because of that, but one that pays off quite well thanks to her wide array of tools. Still, I think she balances with Marth quite nicely since Marth has better range than she would, this is why I don't wanna give her the bow, she doesn't NEED it, and she'd be broken with it. She has to be forced to attack at close range, and put herself at risk on whiffs, she's not a very sturdy character, she can't take punishment too well, and having less range than Marth, she puts herself in more risk than he does.

I dunno how difficult the cancel idea would be to implement, I doubt it'd be that difficult, since, even with my limited knowledge of programming, I kinda get the gist on how to make it work. Plus, they gave Lucario a similar concept.

Roy somewhat fits the description of "more combo-oriented fast faller sword character," too, although he's arguably more balanced with spacing than what you are describing for Lyn. All the same, does your envisioned playstyle vary much now that Roy has been added? For me the question has become whether Lyn can be fit between any two characters and still have a truly unique playstyle, and as I said before, just putting her before Marth's extremes doesn't strike me as the most wonderful idea.

I think Lyn varies vastly from Roy mostly in that Lyn is much faster than Roy, from what I understand, Roy is more of an offensive character than Lyn because of his slower attacks. Plus, the added effect of the flame giving him an additional hitbox. Roy's balanced gameplay is more reminiscent of Sol Baguy in my eyes. Where as Lyn would be an odd mix of Baiken and SF's Cammy.

Giving Lyn the flat out strongest counter now seems slightly overzealous to me. All the other FE characters have some sort of balance on their counter; Marth has fixed damage, but great duration and a starting frame (5), Ike has a poor starting frame (10), but good duration and x1.2 damage scaling, and Roy has x1.5 scaling, a starting frame at 8, and poor duration. Doesn't Marth's vBrawl counter have good frames, a minumum damage, and x1.1 scaling? Lyn's could be this but instead have knockback scale like Ike's, regardless of minimum damage, so it isn't quite effective as Marth's against recoveries. It would still have the advantage of being effective against both strong and multi-hit moves, and would keep the utility of Marth's as a combo-breaker, but also Ike's and Roy's as a predict and punish tool. Overall, I'm all for it having more utility so she can base her metagame around it more, but not for blatantly giving it more power.

Well, understand the context I had for Lyn's counter. I made it as a design for Smash 4, under the idea (and hope), that the game would get more competitive mechanics, or at least, as a design how similar mechanics would play off in Smash. Also, I was pushing for the idea of Marth having the standard counter, Ike, losing his, and getting a different Down B, one that was more in line with that of a heavy but fast character, donning axes and a redesign from FE10. Roy, I didn't consider, since wasn't supporting him.

So, under thouse guises, Lyn would don an extra special counter, since it was a desgin inspired by Baiken and Hakumen, both of whom have situational counters, and are built around the concept. It doesn't have to translate into PM though, and I doubt it will, since they seem to push for Counter being an FE thing in Smash...

In spite of all of this I would like to clarify that Lyn is still one of my top choices, I'd just like to hear if you have anything to say about these points.

That sounds good man, if you got any more Q's feel free to ask.

 

[Giygacoal]

Lots of cool ideas with useful sketches.

Would it be okay if I use this as a reference sheet to do some animations? I'm thinking about applying to the BR as an animator, so I'll need to make stuff that's practical for actual use and the application. Also, Lyn is a character I'm particularly interested in working on.

 

[Deleted member]

Would it be okay if I use this as a reference sheet to do some animations? I'm thinking about applying to the BR as an animator, so I'll need to make stuff that's practical for actual use and the application. Also, Lyn is a character I'm particularly interested in working on.

You're more than welcome to use that however you please, if you want you can PM me about the ideas to get better look on things if you'd like.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

The idea that I had was a quicker running speed than Marth, and quicker startup on attacks than Marth, yes, balloujutsu is a lightning fast attack, believe it or not, despite being sheathed, the technique used to draw the sword makes for some very quick strikes. In fiction, it's always portrayed as being unbelievably fast. She would have the drawback of a slow ending lag, about as slow as Ike I'd say, maybe a bit slower, as she resheathes her sword. So yes, her playstyle would be much like you said, like Lucario, she'd work through cancelable moves, thus removing the ending lag on her attacks, by flowing from one move to an other based on what she uses, she'd have combo branches much like the fighters in games such as Guilty Gear and Blazblue. So yeah, she'd be a character with a high learning curve because of that, but one that pays off quite well thanks to her wide array of tools. Still, I think she balances with Marth quite nicely since Marth has better range than she would, this is why I don't wanna give her the bow, she doesn't NEED it, and she'd be broken with it. She has to be forced to attack at close range, and put herself at risk on whiffs, she's not a very sturdy character, she can't take punishment too well, and having less range than Marth, she puts herself in more risk than he does.

I dunno how difficult the cancel idea would be to implement, I doubt it'd be that difficult, since, even with my limited knowledge of programming, I kinda get the gist on how to make it work. Plus, they gave Lucario a similar concept.

First off, thanks for the well-thought answer. I'm very much intrigued with the concept.
I definitely understand where you're coming from with this. I agree that she should have low startup on her attacks. For Marth's tipper to work in real life he'd have to be stronger than Ganondorf and too dumb to sharpen a sword properly, so nothing wrong with fictional inspiration for those lightning fast attacks. Just looking at it from a more pragmatic approach, though, I don't think it should be faster than Marth's, for several reasons. One, on paper Marth is already very, very fast. The thing is, in practice it takes a little more time to hit maximum range because he's tracing those wide slash arcs. I could definitely believe that Lyn could pull off a faster slash than Marth, though. This is a big factor in being deceptively fast and it is important to see that it is different than the windup. It seems to me the strength in keeping the weapon sheathed is that the preparation is largely mental and invisible to your opponent. Even if an attack was slightly more delayed from the moment of input it would likely show only subtly on the screen and thus require good prediction from the user to properly time, but still be unpredictable to the opponent.
This is why I'd argue she'd be fine with equal startup to Marth or even just 1 or 2 frames slower on paper (though I'd prefer equal). In practice she'll be fine because she'll still move the sword faster and won't telegraph her attacks much at all.

Just curious, do you see cancels as only happening on hit? If they were just worked into IASA that wouldn't be the case, but obviously it would be much different because suddenly stringing together attacks becomes a method of approach and that might undermine the wait, bait, and retaliate playstyle.

A word on her physics/stats:
-I like the traction value, she definitely doesn't seem to be like a wavedash-heavy character. I'd also want to see a shorter dashdance than Marth.
-I don't mind her high falling speed, but make sure that's really what you want. I'm speaking from experience as a Roy player, high falling speed is fun but you'll wish you had it when you can't use that fancy cancelling in the air to get an awesome combo because there aren't any platforms to help out. At least have medium to above average gravity (definitely not high) to balance that, I'd say.
-The one thing I don't agree with is having such a high air speed. It really isn't necessary for combos (at least as high as you have it listed) and I feel like it enables Lyn to run away a little too easily instead of facing down assaults. The way I see it is that Lyn would be fantastic at being cornered and turning the situation on it's head with one well placed slash or counter. Being able to weave in and out of range until she can get a poke in (even with less range, disjoint will still allow this to happen) again seems to undermine her style and makes her lose out in uniqueness. High air speed and high gravity also don't mix very well, so if you're sure you want the falling speed be wary of that.
-Any input on short-hop height? That actually makes quite a difference, and it's one of the reasons I find it hard to try Marth and Sheik (who both have high shorthops) after playing Roy (much lower).

I think Lyn varies vastly from Roy mostly in that Lyn is much faster than Roy, from what I understand, Roy is more of an offensive character than Lyn because of his slower attacks. Plus, the added effect of the flame giving him an additional hitbox. Roy's balanced gameplay is more reminiscent of Sol Baguy in my eyes. Where as Lyn would be an odd mix of Baiken and SF's Cammy.

Okay, I'm about to go in depth about Roy stuff, and while I have a few things to correct, I do get that Lyn has the potential to be a vastly different character all the same.
The flame stuff only gives a multi-hit effect on three extremely situational moves, upsmash, ub-b, Double Edge Dance 3-down. For everything else it just looks cooler.
Roy is actually quite fast, and for P:M it looks like they sped up a few of his attacks slightly. Anyways, he has fairly average frame data, but he's not slow by any means. The speed will make a difference between the two, but not as much as you'd think. Roy also has similar range problems (although also lessened by the good knights of the PMBR).
At this point I'm arguing along with you, so please don't feel confused at my sudden change in tone:
Ultimately, I think a very substantial difference will lie in movement style, Lyn won't have the same dashdance to grab/DED or WD stuff that Roy does, but will have excellent traditional movement (dashing, taking less than seven years to turn around, etc.)
I've also realized that giving the general label of "falls fast and combos with swords" doesn't really apply as much as I thought it did. Here's why:
Roy's dtilt, dair, dash attack (which is pretty bad unless your spacing and/or tech chasing is phenomenal), DED 1 (pretty lame until high %s), and throws to a lesser extent are some of the best combo starters you could ever ask for. His slight speed disadvantage against some characters largely prevents them from being pulled off while under pressure, though (aside from grab) and it is often best to stay safe with dashdances and wavedashes to pressure a response and create an opening for a more aggressive approach. Thus, Roy gets a lot of his combos off of properly spaced approaches because of the combo-starting moves available to him.
If I understand you correctly, Lyn's combos will start in an entirely different situation, when she is playing a clever defense and converts off of an opening in the opponent's negligent defense. That said, she'd hardly rely on the opponent's stupidity because of her speed, so I see how that would be necessary. I actually really like the idea of a defensively-based character that doesn't have some disturbing fixation on spacing and/or projectile camping, I'd very much be interested in trying that. Again, though, I do not think she should have blazing fast aerial speed if she is to be designed to best reflect this style of play.

I get what you're saying about the counter, too. Personally I'd love to see counter get reworked a little to fit within Roy's game as well. The move basically applies in Melee if and only if your opponent is a really reckless Ganondorf or Luigi who doesn't know their grab is essentially a death-touch on Roy. Might not be the place to (re)mention it, but I'd love to see it carry through some of Roy's vertical momentum on use, or maybe start just a single frame sooner. My point is that I'd love to see an interesting counter on Lyn, it could really add to her game.

I know a lot of this is nitpicking statistics and other garbage, and not exactly just questions this time around, but I'm genuinely interested and Lyn certainly needs to have the details down to establish that she will be unique without a doubt.
----------------------------
Semi-unrelated, for you Ganon debaters:
If Lyn won't have any projectiles, what would the chances be of writing over Ganondorf and having the same Ganondorf with a projectile remade in a clone slot? Is having no projectile even a requirement? (as in, can Marth (edit: or Ike) be cloned on top of current Ganon and molded into Lyn, or will it have to be a Ganon clone)
Of course that still leaves the question of whether it is even possible, and whether it will require excessive work to become a reality.
Another edit: or if there needs to be a clone base for Lyn in this case
----------------------------
Almost certainly unrelated:
Are waddle-dees and waddle-doos articles? I would bet that gordos are, but I'm not sure for any of them, really.

 

[arcticfox8]

I was thinking Lyn could be based on Ike since Quickdraw is more fitting for her than Dancing Blade. I was also thinking she could have Stance Change activated by taunt. Her attacks wouldn't change but their properties would. In rush stance, her A attacks and specials are more about horizontal knockback and edgeguarding, her running speed is increased in this stance. In jump stance(?) her attacks are more about juggling and vertical kills, her jump height is increased.
Specials:
B: Chargeable blade attack yep
Every FE character has this. Her's would be unique in that it reflects projectiles. Other than that its pretty much shield breaker.
>B- Quickdraw
Like Brawl Ike's. On contact it hits the opponent, but behaves differently depending on stance.
Rush- Knocks opponent back like a shine. Ideal for rekka combos.
Jump- Launches foe upwards into the air. Height depends on charge.
^B- Final cutter lol
I was thinking something like Kirby's final cutter. Shouldn't be hard if basing it on Ike. Maybe the second fall strike could be optional.
vB- Counter
If basing it on the previous Lucario magic series idea this would make a great combo breaker opener. I can't really say much else.
Thoughts?

 

[Anti Guy]

I was thinking Lyn could be based on Ike since Quickdraw is more fitting for her than Dancing Blade. I was also thinking she could have Stance Change activated by taunt. Her attacks wouldn't change but their properties would. In rush stance, her A attacks and specials are more about horizontal knockback and edgeguarding, her running speed is increased in this stance. In jump stance(?) her attacks are more about juggling and vertical kills, her jump height is increased.
Specials:
B: Chargeable blade attack yep
Every FE character has this. Her's would be unique in that it reflects projectiles. Other than that its pretty much shield breaker.
>B- Quickdraw
Like Brawl Ike's. On contact it hits the opponent, but behaves differently depending on stance.
Rush- Knocks opponent back like a shine. Ideal for rekka combos.
Jump- Launches foe upwards into the air. Height depends on charge.
^B- Final cutter lol
I was thinking something like Kirby's final cutter. Shouldn't be hard if basing it on Ike. Maybe the second fall strike could be optional.
vB- Counter
If basing it on the previous Lucario magic series idea this would make a great combo breaker opener. I can't really say much else.
Thoughts?

An Ike clone certainly would be another and easier alternative for Lyn if they decide to go with her...

Edit: The more I think about it, the better Lyn would be as an Ike clone than an original character.

B moves would be like the above...

Neutral B would be a chargeable attack, but unlike Ike's which plummets down, she'd have her own angle of attack that also does less damage. Perhaps it could be like Lucario's Brawl Down B where multiple images attack, reminiscent of her critical animation.
Forward B would be the quickdraw, like above. It would be weak but extremely fast, and more like one of the spaceys' side B.
Down B would be a counter with its own parameters. If possible, maybe she can sneak around to the other side of the opponent when countering and attack.
Up B would be like aether but faster, like a Final Cutter as mentioned above... but swifter and not nearly as strong.

For her smash attacks, they can be like the ones mentioned in that epic moveset listed earlier, where all three attacks would have the same charge animation, which would be the same or similar as quickdraw. Her forward smash would be a quickdraw-like attack (instead of Ike's overhead swing because that doesn't mesh with her sword style). Up smash would still be an arc, and down smash would be the ground sweep. Them having all the same startup animation would be a good mindgame against the enemies.

And then for the rest of the attacks, similar to Ike's but generally weaker and faster, and probablywith different properties as is typical with clones (like what attacks can meteor and what not, etc).

In general, she'd be fairly low in killing moves (unlike Ike, where almost all of his moves can kill), but would be quick at comboing and racking up damage.

If she works like this, then the amount of work to make her significantly drops, and she'd be a much more favorable candidate, being billed as a clone while also staying true to her fighting style.

 

[trojanpooh]

An Ike clone certainly would be another and easier alternative for Lyn if they decide to go with her...

It'd also mean there weren't 3 different derivations of the Marth archetype.

 

[Rhinevalcke6]

I'd argue that Marth isn't particularly fast in smash, at least movement wise, but that would be a little off topic. Ike in FE10 isn't really comparable to his smash incarnation, but I'd argue he matches FE11 Ike pretty well, especially with his P:M buffs.

Honestly, if they want to make Micaiah a less "control" oriented Zelda and turn her into a speed demon, I'm all for it. Also, I need another magic user.

NEED... ONE.

The thing is that Micaiah would be another big Fire Emblem choice, but what might be her moves? Let's bring her up to discussion, because I never played FE11... yet I call myself a FE fan. For shame.

Ike and Michaiah aren't in FE11. FE11 is either Shadow Dragon or Awakening, depending on who you're talking to (Although FE11 refers to Shadow Dragon most of the time)

Path of Radiance (Ike's first game) is FE9 and Radiant Dawn (Ike's Second Game, Michaiah's game) is FE10

 

[Diddy Kong]

Micaiah / Sothe could function pretty much like a reworked Zelda / Sheik. Though, I don't know if it's worth the effort. It's a cute idea to add more 'generic' classes from Fire Emblem besides just the tried and tested Lords, but the more obvious Zelda / Sheik clones will always be Toon Zelda / Tetra. And of course Impa, but nobody in the world besides me likes Impa is what people like to say.

Lyn is an awesome idea, and should happen. Same with Isaac.

Ganondorf though, am now more getting confused about this issue more and more. Yes, I see why changing him in a game called Project Melee is a bad idea, though...With minimal changes he'd already feel like the Ganondorf from the Zelda games. Neutral B is an obvious one to replace. And yes, I fully support that.

Other useless moves as Up Tilt also could use a change. And I always like suggesting this:

Other moves I think could be replaced into more Zelda-ish Ganondorf-flavour:

Neutral Air
Forward Smash
Down B (I'd like a teleporting attack, ala MetaKnight's vBrawl but with a similar movement to the Falcon Kick / Wizard Foot)

And with that, Ganondorf would get some decent buffs, as well as look and play a little more like Ganondorf is supposed to play like.

I agree though with whoever said 'beast in a man's body'. Think that was really cleverly said.

 

[Grey Belnades]

Posts #1976-1985: You make me feel like Vince McMahon and money.

Kept up the Lyn talk.

 

[l3thargy]

hey all I've been thinking over the whole Ganondorf/BlackShadow thing and I found a video with Ganondorf switching move-sets via his taunt

I figured it would be a whole lot less controversial if something like this was done for Ganondorf instead, and perhaps add BlackShadow or another F-zero character as there own character

also for the pichu getting in thing, how about instead of a lone pichu coming in to join the brawl we add in it's sibling too http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pichu_Bros (could use iceclimbers as a base but have pikachu's animations/ and can keep the whole getting hurt thing they have going) they could be really fast but weak characters that could make up for it with their teamwork

 

[Diddy Kong]

That would work to! His sword could be optional, and only change his F Tilt, and F Smash, like a regular Beam Sword would? However, I'm totally down for a few revamps on useless moves as F Smash, N Air and Up Tilt. Captain Falcon can make good use of those moves, but Ganondorf can't. It's both a buff, and pleases Zelda fans and Melee fans in a samilar way.

Am not sure if I upvoted Black Shadow / Ganondorf, but if I did... Consider my vote for Black Shadow null, but am just voting for changes in Ganondorf in general.

I mean, Lucas, Snake, Charizard, Ivysaur, Squirtle and ROB also had their fans in Brawl, yet their movesets got changed far more than we are suggesting for Ganondorf.

 

[Kally Wally]

You keep mentioning UpTilt, but it was already changed, and is now at least decent. It's not an amazing move, but I don't think it warrants changing.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I indeed keep forgetting it. It's more of an axe-kick now right? Ah well...

Up Smash is still up for debate?

 

[Sebovich]

Personally, I´d like to keep Ganon the way he is. Switching the moveset wit Black Shadow, also a bad idea IMO. Mainly because Black Shadow is like the dorkiest villain ever, spandex and big horns? Come on, DeathBorn would make a way cooler character, he´s even Black Shadows boss.

 

[Cheezey Bites]

Because captain falcon isn't the dorkiest hero ever?

 

[smashbro29]

Post 1 honestly just looks like a lot of ideas the person writing it had.

 

[l3thargy]

Personally, I´d like to keep Ganon the way he is. Switching the moveset wit Black Shadow, also a bad idea IMO. Mainly because Black Shadow is like the dorkiest villain ever, spandex and big horns? Come on, DeathBorn would make a way cooler character, he´s even Black Shadows boss.

That's why I posted a video, in said video Ganondorf could still keep his moveset the way it was but with the added benefit of being able to change it via a taunt button.

Ganondorf can still be a falcon clone for the people who dislike the idea of change, but he can also have a new sword and magic based moveset for the people that wanted it.

as for BlackShadow and DeathBorn, I had originally said somewhere before that I'd rather DeathBorn but nobody else seemed to like him :<

but anyways now Deathborn, Black Shadow, and Samurai Goroh could all be possibilities without all the fuss of replacing people.

 

[Sebovich]

Because captain falcon isn't the dorkiest hero ever?

Nah, he´s got shoulder pads, utility belt(with a gun) and a cool helmet, everything a bounty hunter/race car driver needs!

 

[Sebovich]

That's why I posted a video, in said video Ganondorf could still keep his moveset the way it was but with the added benefit of being able to change it via a taunt button.

Ganondorf can still be a falcon clone for the people who dislike the idea of change, but he can also have a new sword and magic based moveset for the people that wanted it.

as for BlackShadow and DeathBorn, I had originally said somewhere before that I'd rather DeathBorn but nobody else seemed to like him :<

but anyways now Deathborn, Black Shadow, and Samurai Goroh could all be possibilities without all the fuss of replacing people.

Giving him an extra moveset would be difficult balancewise I suppose, and considering how big his sword is, it would have to be slower than Ikes and more powerful to work.
Changing Ganons moveset to a dark magic melee brute similiar to what he has now (but with entirely new moves) would be cool though

 

[l3thargy]

Giving him an extra moveset would be difficult balancewise I suppose, and considering how big his sword is, it would have to be slower than Ikes and more powerful to work.
Changing Ganons moveset to a dark magic melee brute similiar to what he has now (but with entirely new moves) would be cool though

He could be as fast as he is in Twilight Princess when it comes to his sword attacks (If I wasn't so tired/ and still had a copy of twilight princess I'd try and come up with a pretty balanced moveset for him involving his attacks from TP and Oot) I recently watched a video of his boss fight and he seems to be slightly slower then how Ike was in vBrawl (idk if ike was given a speed boost in PM)

I personally think it would be best for him to have a mixture of his swordsmanship, brute strength, and magic all in one moveset (via switching to it with a taunt) kind of how I originally hoped Nintendo would have had him when I first heard about brawl coming out

Edit: I figured out a moveset (animation wise) that Ganondorf could use that would suit with his character

Spoiler

Up Smash = vBrawl's single upwards kick
Down Smash = short range wave of darkness engulfs Ganondorf reminiscence of first fight in Oot
Side Smash = Twilight princess spin attack
Up Tilt = animation similar to Ike's side taunt from vbrawl
Down Tilt = remains unchanged
Side Tilt = Twilight princess stab attack
A Combo = Ganondorf's A attack with beam sword only slightly altered to be slower
Up Air = swinging his sword straight up almost like a stab
Down Air = remains unchanged
Back Air = remains unchanged
Forward Air = two handed overhead sword swing
Neutral Air = unchanged due to me not being able to think of anything at the moment
Neutral B = energy ball attack from Oot
Side B = can stay the same as it is in 2.6 seeing as 3.0 ganon's is getting a change
Up B = jump attack from Twilight princess
Down B = ground pound from Oot that he uses to drop the platforms that Link stands on
Dash Attack = Twilight princess run and slash attack

 

[Anti Guy]

hey all I've been thinking over the whole Ganondorf/BlackShadow thing and I found a video with Ganondorf switching move-sets via his taunt

I figured it would be a whole lot less controversial if something like this was done for Ganondorf instead, and perhaps add BlackShadow or another F-zero character as there own character

also for the pichu getting in thing, how about instead of a lone pichu coming in to join the brawl we add in it's sibling too http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pichu_Bros (could use iceclimbers as a base but have pikachu's animations/ and can keep the whole getting hurt thing they have going) they could be really fast but weak characters that could make up for it with their teamwork

Maybe perhaps instead of the taunt idea by adding a new moveset to him (which would really fundamentally change his whole character), maybe something the PMBR can look at is changing the animations of some of his attacks to be more Ganon-like, while not changing the parameters at all (or very slightly modifying them). For example, a long range kick attack could be replaced by a sword strike, but retain all the damage, range, speed, and knockback. And perhaps another attack can be replaced with a medium-ranged aura blast.

As for Pichu Bros, I highly doubt they want to consider anything Ice-Climber like. The current Ice Climbers are already taking their time, and the coding to make that work for other characters, while it might be possible (especially with Dantarion's latest stream), is probably too time intensive for something that probably not too many people would care about.

 

[arcticfox8]

The reason Pichu bros wouldn't work is because the people want Pichu. Singular. Turning him into Pikachu Climbers wouldn't fly. If you want that, Plusle and Minun is an option. But I doubt people would want 2 more Pokémon characters and both of them be Pika clones. So yeah, just Pichu.

 

[l3thargy]

Maybe perhaps instead of the taunt idea by adding a new moveset to him (which would really fundamentally change his whole character), maybe something the PMBR can look at is changing the animations of some of his attacks to be more Ganon-like, while not changing the parameters at all (or very slightly modifying them). For example, a long range kick attack could be replaced by a sword strike, but retain all the damage, range, speed, and knockback. And perhaps another attack can be replaced with a medium-ranged aura blast.

I figured it would be a lot like how Sheik and Zelda are, Ganon would change to be slightly slower but with the added bonus of ranged attack via his sword and magic but perhaps less knockback (maybe more depending on how slow he becomes) and can switch back to his original melee moveset.

but yeah I would have suggested just giving him sword strikes for some of the moves that could easily be replaced (I thought about this for Falco) but from what I've read there are people who are against any change to his moveset at all so I thought this was a nice compromise instead of replacing the character model with Black shadow

As for Pichu Bros, I highly doubt they want to consider anything Ice-Climber like. The current Ice Climbers are already taking their time, and the coding to make that work for other characters, while it might be possible (especially with Dantarion's latest stream), is probably too time intensive for something that probably not too many people would care about.

I figured that if Pichu was to be added into the game I think it would be more interesting if it was as a team of two, but yeah I know the PMBR are having trouble with the IceClimbers I just figured once they got everything down that it would be a possibility eventually