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New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

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PsionicSabreur

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Outside of warlock punch, I could personally put up with changes to uptilt, nair, upsmash, and maybe a few others. Those three seem fairly out of place in Ganon's metagame and don't fit his character very well anyways (talking to you, groin-killer-uptilt). They're all long range as well, which means they could be replaced by a sword or the trident or something.
 

Fortress

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I see U-smash used a lot, so I would think that would be left alone. It's a pretty solid kill move, and I'm assuming Ganon's DACUS game is worthwhile.
 

OrangeSodaGuy

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The only Ganondorf change that would work without alienating the Ganondorf crowd (come on, that's been their character for twelve years, guys) would be to change Warlock Fist into... I don't know, Warlock Bolt or something. Just some Lucario-esque bolt of magic that, hell, bounces off of characters it hits and that Ganondorf can just keep punching back at his opponent.

Maybe not that, but a projectile couldn't hurt. Or something.

Do any Ganondorf mains ever use Warlock Fist on purpose?
I would suggest a projectile, there's only two things I'm not sure of.

A. It might mess with Ganon's game too much. I wonder if giving him a projectile would make him a little too good.
Someone more knowledgable in regards to competitive Ganon would know far more than I do in this scenario, so definitely correct me if I'm wrong on this.

B. I don't know if the PMBR is still limited when it comes to coding projectiles. I wonder if it would be feasible to give Ganon one at the moment. To be fair, those guys are wizards, and this could change tomorrow.
 

PsionicSabreur

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I would suggest a projectile, there's only two things I'm not sure of.

A. It might mess with Ganon's game too much. I wonder if giving him a projectile would make him a little too good.
Someone more knowledgable in regards to competitive Ganon would know far more than I do in this scenario, so definitely correct me if I'm wrong on this.

B. I don't know if the PMBR is still limited when it comes to coding projectiles. I wonder if it would be feasible to give Ganon one at the moment. To be fair, those guys are wizards, and this could change tomorrow.
A projectile for Ganon would probably have to be a slow-moving projectile designed for defense and stage control.
Actually, probably not, now that I think about it. A purely offensive, chargeable projectile would have very little effect on overall play and wouldn't make too much of a difference because he's Ganondorf and he can get a KO by punches and whatnot easily enough anyways. If it's chargeable he won't get to use it much regardless, although they'd have to be careful about letting him spam the uncharged version. Maybe it would be very strong, possibly even a little stronger than Mewtwo/Samus, or have some other advantage, but it would have to be charged completely to actually use?

-I'd love to have the energy ball more than anything, but the possibility of just giving Ganondorf a projectile hasn't really been discussed to much fruition. For example, could Ganondorf himself be overwritten with a non-projectile clone character, then have his own data sans Warlock Punch directly ported to a clone based off of Lucario, or is something like that not feasible?
I mentioned this before, but I'm still unsure whether current technology would support it. I did see something about how some hacks out there have taken articles from items (like the ray gun's laser) and attached them to Ganon's neutral B but I think there was some other problem with that. Otherwise I can't say much more.
 

Fortress

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I meant about the audacity of the T-Rex. My head doesn't actually hurt. Besides, I've had bad headaches since I was three, so I've got my go-tos to treat them.
 

Chzrm3

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I meant about the audacity of the T-Rex. My head doesn't actually hurt. Besides, I've had bad headaches since I was three, so I've got my go-tos to treat them.

What do you do? I don't get headaches all that often, but whenever I do I'm kinda miserable until it goes away on its own. Do you actually have any stuff that works besides going "RUHRGHRRGHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" and trying to sleep it off?
 

Anti Guy

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Hm, I didn't make my down votes… Well, they are
Third Party Characters
The "Nintendo All-Stars" arguments are valid, and I agree with them, but there is a more objective objection.
The biggest threat to the future of Project M its legally grey status. Thus far Nintendo seems to have been level headed enough to realize that allowing fans to add value to one of their products increases the value of all of their products. However, bringing in third parties throws new wrench into the can of worms. Not only is there the danger of upsetting Sega or Konami, there's also the danger of Nintendo becoming scared that they'll get upset. Letting others use one's own property is one thing, but letting others use borrowed property is a whole 'nother, and Nintendo may not wish to strain relationships. Especially since they seem to want to break the cycle of poor support with the Wii U, and are pulling even more third parties into Smash 4.
I think anyone can agree that not having one's favorite character is Pro:M is favorable to not having Pro:M.

I'm not sure about the new vote locking rule, it seems it would devalue discussion if minds are not allowed to be changed. Perhaps simply having a waiting period on changes.
Regardless, I shall downgrade my Paper Mario vote to 1/2.


You can read Japanese, Anti Guy? How accurate is the fan translation? I kinda like"Konnan Irahen"… harder to say, but that would make the the attack a KI blast, right :bee:?
Good to see Sukapon so high on the polls. Hopefully it gets into Project M, and when the Earthling Empire is inevitably conquered by the robo-horde, they'll look upon mankind's greatest creation, see the kindness we felt for their people, and find mercy in their directories.
Thanks for adding my post (plug plug) to the OP (and for managing this in general, actually) (btw, I think it'd look cleaner if every character used banners like Goroh, when possible). I intend to keep it updated throughout discussions as a repository of gaudimechanical engineering knowledge.

On that note, so no one has to reread that monolith of text, here are the updates I have made that were pulled from my own mind:
Eye Copter would make a great attack: it could be the first aerial that is bipartite like Link's Fsmash.
The mentioned method of animating Sukapon means that reversing animations would be simple, and since it's a magic robot those reversed animations might actually be usable.
Radial motions could be easily animated by placing an ethereal bone in the center of the desired motion.
By adding tilting and bobbing, the spinning idle animation could be used as a base for all swimming animations.
Clarified the purpose of Sukapon Roll stopping, but not ending, at a ledge (besides it being like that in JMF): Sukapon is left vulnerable to counterattack by opponents who can out-prioritize SR quickly enough, or they could simply allow themselves (or their shield, if they're better at video games than me) to be hit, which would bounce Sukapon into the disadvantageous position of being off-stage. On the other hand, SR could be used against missed ledge-sweetspots.
Clarified that, because I doubt otherwise is possible, the sweetspot for Super Sukapon Roll is the expected arc, given that nothing interrupts or changes it (such as terrain or wind).

I've also realized some good possible series icons, which will be coming eventually.


Regarding Isaac (also applicable to some other characters):
I really like him in pretty much every way, and as Venus Adept he could make an amazing Smash character. In a game all about movement, he could make the stage move for him, altering the terrain to create new platforms, walls, hills, valleys, caves, holes, pitfalls, cliffs, ledges, and even using plants to make ladders, springs, and spikes. The thing is, though, as powerful as the PMBR's alchemy is, I think this is one thing that is beyond their capabilities. I even doubt if they could implement a (fun) djinn setting system.
Without that, I don't see how Isaac could add anything to the game that the Links haven't already. But I'm open to conversation, and if anyone can convince me that he does have potential (or, The Wise One willing, can confirm that a terraforming character is possible), I still have one +1 left (he desperately needs it).
That, and I don't see why everyone thinks he's not in Smash 4.

I can read katakana, which is fairly simple, especially since it's often used to represent English sounds. For what it's worth, the fan translation is mostly accurate, maybe like 80%. Not sure why they made the changes they made.

Also, feed on some hype:


Anyways, the banner idea is good. I'll go put them in now.

And as for Isaac, yeah he's literally the freaking elephant in the room. He has the most votes in here, but no one is talking about the other half of his candidacy (how well can he actually be implemented. We already know that he has the strongest "starpower" here). If no one discusses it, I'll bring it up and around later.
 

Starcutter

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I hate to be the one always bursting the bubble, but a moveset like that would be unfeasible. The rod tether is not possible or very difficult. Despite it being a tether, it needs its own animation. I'm also assuming it would be a separate article, which may make things tricky. Summoning pokemon like Pidgeotto... I don't see that as possible. The bike does seem to be possible though, especially since Wario isn't using his at the moment.
I wouldn't expect a moveset like that anyways, since I made it for my smash 4 thread.

but thanks for enlightening me on how hard project M is to program/animate for and stuff. I might make changes to that moveset specifically for project M.
 

Chzrm3

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And as for Isaac, yeah he's literally the freaking elephant in the room. He has the most votes in here, but no one is talking about the other half of his candidacy (how well can he actually be implemented. We already know that he has the strongest "starpower" here). If no one discusses it, I'll bring it up and around later.

Yeah, I'm really curious about that. I've never played Golden Sun, but from what I saw of his AT he had some pretty unique types of magic. Link might be the best base to work from because he has the bomb/boomerang/bows/hookshot, so you've got 4 articles to work with, but I'm not sure if any of those attacks are similar enough to his magic to work like them. (I guess, now that I'm thinking about it, the boomerang might have enough in common with that force-push spell that it could work... hmm!)

What other magic does Isaac have? Is he kind of like Cloud, where he could have tons of stuff?
 

Starcutter

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Yeah, I'm really curious about that. I've never played Golden Sun, but from what I saw of his AT he had some pretty unique types of magic. Link might be the best base to work from because he has the bomb/boomerang/bows/hookshot, so you've got 4 articles to work with, but I'm not sure if any of those attacks are similar enough to his magic to work like them. (I guess, now that I'm thinking about it, the boomerang might have enough in common with that force-push spell that it could work... hmm!)

What other magic does Isaac have? Is he kind of like Cloud, where he could have tons of stuff?
he has fire, earth wind and water elements, be he mostly uses earth elements.

although I wouldn't mind seeing growth(If I'm remembering the name right).
 

trojanpooh

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And as for Isaac, yeah he's literally the freaking elephant in the room. He has the most votes in here, but no one is talking about the other half of his candidacy (how well can he actually be implemented. We already know that he has the strongest "starpower" here). If no one discusses it, I'll bring it up and around later.

Yeah, I was hoping that me downvoting him a few pages would spark a discussion, but everyone seemed to just glaze over it and focus on Dixie's downvote instead. I really think that anyway you look at it he'd be more or less impossible to implement properly. The degree of uniqueness all of his moves is simply too great. Like, move/push would be a must, some sort of earth move too (Spire) would probably be the easiest, then maybe a reference to the djinni and a then something else. I think pick up (or whatever it was called) would be good for a grab move, but obviously this would also be completely impossible. If someone were to provide a good moveset that was feasible in PM I'd bump my downvote into an upvote in a heartbeat, but right now I just don't see it working.
 

Xebenkeck

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I have no idea how to edit articles. So I can't even give an insite into what is even in the realm of possibility.

All we have is what has been altered.

Which Aurasphere they changed to Shadow Ball
Bulletseed to seed bomb
Gale Boomerang to Boomerang
PK Fire to Pk Freeze
Arrows to Fire Arrows

At a base level these all seem very minor changes(with the exception of seed bomb). So altering an article to be DRASTICALLY different does not seem to be in the realm of possibility.

But a PMBRer could probably give more insight into what is actually possible in this regard.
 

PsionicSabreur

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Just because it's a disjoint or magical doesn't mean it has to be an article.
Example: Isaac's Dsmash could be having two rock spires emerge from the ground at his sides. These could be fashioned as disjoints.
 

Chzrm3

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I just realized something, since we're talking about articles - where did Squirtle's bubbles come from? O_o

I think Ivysaur really shows how far the PMBR can push themselves when it comes to special attacks. Seed bomb uses the same basic idea of bullet seed (shoot up), but changes it significantly by keeping the attack alive until it hits the ground, giving it physics so that it starts to fall after a bit, giving it the ability to stun people if it hits them on the ground, etc etc.

And Solarbeam - I think they said that was just a huge, extended hitbox from Ivysaur's face. (oh, maybe that's how they did bubbles, haha).

So if Isaac has any moves that would make sense in that capacity, the PMBR might be able to make it work. Some people have mentioned he has Earth magic - so a possible Up-B for him might involve him summoning a pillar of Earth to push himself up. If it extends out from his model and isn't ever separate from him, then it might not need to be an article at all - it could function like solarbeam, where it exists for a brief moment while Isaac is rising, and hurts anybody it touches. Then it goes away as Isaac is launched upwards.

Again, I don't know the character, so that might be a horrible Up-B, but I think it's an example of how the PMBR can work around the article limits.
 

PsionicSabreur

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Something about articles I thought I'd point out:
It seems they are often confused with disjointed hitboxes. If you watch any footage of Ivysaur, note that hitting with solarbeam still puts Ivysaur in hitlag. If I'm correct, this means that solarbeam is actually not an article, and bullet seed was morphed into seed bomb and transferred to down-b. Transferring articles between move inputs in itself seems like it could help flesh out ideas for certain characters, but the fact that even giant lasers don't necessarily need an article should open up discussion for certain characters a little more.
I mentioned this earlier but it didn't take. Solarbeam is indeed a giant hitbox and not an article. In the case of seed bomb they can even apparently pull an article for use in a different attack.
If the Masked Man needed a second article (although I think with proposed movesets he had enough already) could it be pulled from his up-b?
Back to Isaac, because he really needs discussion, his moves are mostly based off of plants and earth/rock attacks, am I right? It's been an awful long while since I played the game.
Overall I'd say Link would be the easiest base. He has a lot of articles (though they'd have to be heavily modified and keep the same properties) and a sword that he sheathes for some article attacks, which I think would fit Isaac fairly well, or at least better than other character choices.
 

Anti Guy

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Alright let's get this started then.

Here's a video of psynergy:


And here's a list of all the Venus (Earth) Psynergy: http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Venus_Psynergy

Given that many of them are just upgrades of each other... they mainly fall into these major categories:

-Summoning rocks
-Shaking the ground
-Summoning plants (vines, punji - bamboo spikes, thorns)
-Summoning spires
-Summoning the undead
-Summoning a giant sword (Ragnarok, Odyssey)
-HP regen. Revival
-Cursing and condemning the enemy with spirits

There are also non-battle moves like Move (the hand which he uses in the assist trophy), Scoop, Tremor, Scoop, and Sand. I don't think these would be possible.

So.. what can you do with that? I think the easiest one is Ragnarok: B Neutral. You can essentially use Ike's B and call that Ragnarok.
Next up is quake: B Down. Something like Wario's down smash where it shakes up the ground. Just have more rocky effects.
Next is a B forward. I think if Link is a base, then if it's possible... maybe his boomerang can be modified into a reaper ghost that attacks and comes back.
Finally there's the Up B. Maybe he can use Ivysaur's Up B as a tether if that's possible? Either that, or an Ike or Kirby-like up-and-down attack where he jumps up, and transitions into a Ragnarok-like attack on the way down, or Helm Splitter, or cause a Quake.

So maybe it IS possible... depending on if these are possible or not.
 

trojanpooh

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It's not possible to mix and match articles from character to character. You need to pick a base character and roll with that. It may be possible with Ivysaur as a base, but is it really all that desirable? The main charm of Golden Sun was the puzzles and the Psyenergy used on the maps to solve said puzzles. Without them it was just a generic JRPG. They defined the game and I'm not sure having Isaac without some reference to Move or Scoop or any of those would be any good.
 

TDLink

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Re: Isaac

There are 3 characters currently in the game that make sense to me as a base for Isaac.

The obvious one is Link. He already has a sword and the boomerang could be re-purposed as Move. Of course it would then have to disappear. Maybe they could have it where if you press B again while it is out, it reverses and can Push the enemy closer to you. This is very similar to the Gale Boomerang in Brawl, but would require player activation for the effect. Isaac does both push away and pull things to him with Move in the games. Changing the tether hookshot to Growth makes the most sense, but he could also use a Pillar of Earth (Spire) as someone else suggested for his Up B recovery. If they don't want to do the Move push towards you thing with the Boomerang they could instead have the hookshot grab do it. Isaac's psynergy could "hold the opponent in place" (invisible hookshot), and then the hand could push them towards Isaac for him to actually grab him. I think it could work, but could also look a bit janky, not sure. Bombs would definitely have to be replaced with something but Link's down A disjointed hitbox could be used for spires on either side of him.

A less obvious one I would say is Ivysaur. I'm not sure how flexible he would be, but perhaps some of the leaf/vine attacks could be replaced with a sword to make this work. Ivysaur's razor leaf could easily be Move and Vine Whip could easily be Growth. Seed Bomb can become Spire using an extended hitbox. Synthesis can become Cure. Solarbeam could be Ragnarok, though its method of charging would likely be different than just using Cure long enough. Maybe after building up a certain amount of damage dealt instead. Ivysaur's ranged grab could also utilize the idea I posted in the Link paragraph if feasible. Really though I think Ivysaur's current PM specials perfectly match Isaac could do. I think he's the best clone choice provided they can make Isaac's body and sword work with Ivysaur.

The most difficult/weirdest choice would be Squirtle. Isaac is known primarily for using Earth magic like Growth, Cure, Earthquake/Spire stuff, but he can technically use any element. Squirtle's up B could stay as is and work just fine. Squirtle's water gun could become Move. His up smash could be Spires on either side of him. Withdraw could be Isaac simply moving fast with Wind magic, although it may be hard to make him not appear to curl up into a ball like Squirtle goes into his shell. I think it would be pretty hard to implement on Squirtle because he doesn't really attack with anything (unlike Ivysaur who attacks with leaves and vines) so doing the sword may be hard (though I don't know how hard it is with Ivy to be fair). This build would also represent Isaac as more of an all around pysnergy user, which while possible in the games, is technically away from his canon alignment (Earth focused).
 

PsionicSabreur

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I'd actually be quite interested to see how a character would work that isn't based on movementmovementmovement but instead has a side-b that can push or pull the opponent.
Then again, that could just as easily end up as another hardcore spacecamping character.
Ivysaur might make a decent decision for moveset, I guess, but I'm wondering if that would introduce any weird modeling problems. The most time consuming portion is apparently the modeling and animation process, which is important to consider, if the cloned base has any effects on this at all.

Edit:
I could put up with a few semi-canon moves on Isaac, if they improve his moveset in a way his other moves couldn't. That already happens with characters like Lucas and Ness.
 

SmashShadow

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There was this Isaac PSA a while back. It's not perfect but it shows some of the things he can do.
 

TDLink

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There was this Isaac PSA a while back. I'ts not perfect but it shows some of the things he can do.
That specials they pulled off in this PSA really aren't that bad at all. Perhaps too many specials though. I didn't realize something like Gaia could be pulled off and interesting how they did Ragnarok there there. Some good ideas. It just all needs to be less janky.
 

Fortress

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Whatever move it is that sends Mario rocketing into the air at mach eight, that should be toned down a bit.

Also, what TD said; too many specials.
 

arcticfox8

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There was this Isaac PSA a while back. I'ts not perfect but it shows some of the things he can do.
That's not half bad if it could be polished. If Move was the B it'd be interesting. The longer you hold it the farther it goes but if it hits a wall or another projectile it fades away. If it hits an opponent so many times it auto dissapears. Thoughts?
 

Raccoon Chuck

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I'm willing to take down my votes for Hector, but only after posting a voting subject to counter Lyn.
Who likes Micaiah? Zelda as a base perhaps?
 

Xinc

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I'm willing to take down my votes for Hector, but only after posting a voting subject to counter Lyn.
Who likes Micaiah? Zelda as a base perhaps?
The thing is that Micaiah would be another big Fire Emblem choice, but what might be her moves? Let's bring her up to discussion, because I never played FE11... yet I call myself a FE fan. For shame.
 

Raccoon Chuck

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The other alternates I can really see as rounding out the FE cast is the Sacred Stones twins. Eirika would bring a female char. to the group, though she would be another sword user. As for Ephraim, he would bring lances to the table, could be cloned from Marth through a few animation tweaks and hitbox alterations, though specials come into the question, and once again....different weapons!!! Downside is, he's another guy, so....yeah. Though I suppose Dark Samus, Dixie Kong, and the like could at least help with the concern of female reps.
 
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