New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Morian]

What matters for a FE CE candidate (opinion):

- Protagonist
- Potential
- Popularity
- Female

I think they are too much characters who does not deserve to be in Smash if we have the mentality of a hardcore fanbase (I don't wanna put examples here, sorry). And play as a Nowi-Lyn recolor is hype as hell, or a light magic mage.

 

[GunBuster]

As for Lyn being a bad unit... well she gets 2HKO'd by almost everything and the game has a ton of lances. She lacks Eliwoods defenses or Guy's crazy HP (and his offense is about on par with Lyn too). So Lyn is really invalidated because a lot of units do what she does better.

well, Pent outclasses every other magic character in the game, but i still like to use Erk. i've never been one to exclude based on stats in these games...

 

[UltimateWario]

http://i.imgur.com/g4eo9lj.jpg

Take it with a grain of salt, but things have been getting more credible lately.

Everything I've ever read about the leak indicates that the roster shown is what we're getting. There's absolutely no reason that more characters would be arbitrarily locked, especially one like Ridley, where showing them would garner the most attention. All evidence points to Ridley, Mewtwo, and co. being added on at later dates by irrelevant people, especially since the list has fluctuated (albeit always containing Ridley, Mewtwo, and Dixie -- Chorus Men, Impa, and other characters tend to appear temporarily).

I would literally bet my entire video game collection that there are no more characters beyond what's been shown in the leaks. There's no reason the leaker wouldn't show the entire roster, and it's a massive "coincidence" that the characters that just so happened to be locked also happened to be the most controversial and requested.

Spoiler

I also can't help but laugh at people using "Sakurai did it" as reasoning for adding more Fire Emblem characters. The entire reason this mod was made was because people didn't like what Sakurai did. If Fire Emblem gets MORE characters while the likes of DK and Metroid are left to stew, I'm going to lose hope in Smash altogether, PM or otherwise.

 

[Anti Guy]

Michiah wont be a 1:1 Zelda. Honestly her moveset feels like it could be campy like if its just pure ranged magic. And she could take up alot of work for a moveset that might not be worth making

I highly doubt that she would be anything close to "a lot of work" compared to any other character. She would be the least work. And 1:1 Zelda easily makes sense.

Up B: Same animation. Call it Warp
Side B: Much faster than Din's Fire -- harder to control. Also less damage and knockback. Give it light effects instead of fire. Call it Light/Lightning.
Neutral B: Change it to light effects. Can change hitboxes, damage, delay, multiple hits, etc. Call it Ellight.
Down B: Free to do whatever. Preferably Nosferatu.

And all her other attacks are modified as I mentioned previously. Seriously, this is as simple as it gets.

Everything I've ever read about the leak indicates that the roster shown is what we're getting. There's absolutely no reason that more characters would be arbitrarily locked, especially one like Ridley, where showing them would garner the most attention. All evidence points to Ridley, Mewtwo, and co. being added on at later dates by irrelevant people, especially since the list has fluctuated (albeit always containing Ridley, Mewtwo, and Dixie -- Chorus Men, Impa, and other characters tend to appear temporarily).

I would literally bet my entire video game collection that there are no more characters beyond what's been shown in the leaks. There's no reason the leaker wouldn't show the entire roster, and it's a massive "coincidence" that the characters that just so happened to be locked also happened to be the most controversial and requested.

Spoiler

I also can't help but laugh at people using "Sakurai did it" as reasoning for adding more Fire Emblem characters. The entire reason this mod was made was because people didn't like what Sakurai did. If Fire Emblem gets MORE characters while the likes of DK and Metroid are left to stew, I'm going to lose hope in Smash altogether, PM or otherwise.

Except All Star mode wasn't unlocked, and the character select screen did not look complete. It looked like one of those character select screens you'd have when not every character was unlocked, so that not all positions made sense.

It's very easy to take a picture before unlocking all the characters... who knows, maybe the last few would take a lot more work, like G&W in Melee

 

[XStarWarriorX]

I highly doubt that she would be anything close to "a lot of work" compared to any other character. She would be the least work. And 1:1 Zelda easily makes sense.

Up B: Same animation. Call it Warp
Side B: Much faster than Din's Fire -- harder to control. Also less damage and knockback. Give it light effects instead of fire. Call it Light/Lightning.
Neutral B: Change it to light effects. Can change hitboxes, damage, delay, multiple hits, etc. Call it Ellight.
Down B: Free to do whatever. Preferably Nosferatu.

And all her other attacks are modified as I mentioned previously. Seriously, this is as simple as it gets.



Except All Star mode wasn't unlocked, and the character select screen did not look complete. It looked like one of those character select screens you'd have when not every character was unlocked, so that not all positions made sense.

It's very easy to take a picture before unlocking all the characters... who knows, maybe the last few would take a lot more work, like G&W in Melee

Yeah i doubt they'd make her top tier 1:1 zelda honestly. She'd probably play worse than zelda than an actual copy.

Just changing the effects just isn't enough hype imo, I bet the PMDV wants the mod to stand out and give the smash community a fresh look at competitive smash and they wont stop until they feel they've succeeded. Also given the competitors shes against, she doesn't really have much going for her. Metriod and earthbound don't have much really which is why simple effect changes could work for them. ex. ninten/MM, Or Dark samus.

But doing another FE CE char like that would be kinda a waste imo, I'd rather have the FE char whoever it is, have a bit of more work be put in there.

I know its easy to say that the PMDV will just do easy clones and call it a day. But honestly i think the PMDV will actually give it the extra effort and make some pretty hype characters. I believe that the PMDV arent just cutting corners like that, I know its hard to make a character. But i kinda doubt every character they choose will be an easy one.

Also given that Micaiah isn't really too popular, i honestly dont see her being made. Not trying to bag on micaiah I actually am ok with the character, i just dont see her going over lyn or honestly hector, who ike just got his "armor" from as a skin.

 

[Anti Guy]

Yeah i doubt they'd make her top tier 1:1 zelda honestly. She'd probably play worse than zelda than an actual copy.

Just changing the effects just isn't enough hype imo, I bet the PMDV wants the mod to stand out and give the smash community a fresh look at competitive smash and they wont stop until they feel they've succeeded. Also given the competitors shes against, she doesn't really have much going for her. Metriod and earthbound don't have much really which is why simple effect changes could work for them. ex. ninten/MM, Or Dark samus.

But doing another FE CE char like that would be kinda a waste imo, I'd rather have the FE char whoever it is, have a bit of more work be put in there.

I know its easy to say that the PMDV will just do easy clones and call it a day. But honestly i think the PMDV will actually give it the extra effort and make some pretty hype characters. I believe that the PMDV arent just cutting corners like that, I know its hard to make a character. But i kinda doubt every character they choose will be an easy one.

Also given that Micaiah isn't really too popular, i honestly dont see her being made. Not trying to bag on micaiah I actually am ok with the character, i just dont see her going over lyn or honestly hector, who ike just got his "armor" from as a skin.

You can't say that she'd play worse than Zelda or anything. You just don't know. Or "just changing the effects" will not generate hype. Again, think of Captain Falcon and Ganondorf. Virtually all the same moves but with changes. Hey, including effect changes! Add shadow effects to Falcon's move (and replace fire with shadow when appropriate). It's more than that. There are many subtleties that make a completely different character.

And while we're on the subject, this is actually one thing I wanted to address. I keep seeing the same phrase, probably reiterated in different forms, but it's always the same:

"If the PMBR/DV is going to make a character. They're not going to make a clone. They're going to go all out because that's the kind of quality they do."

I feel like there's absolutely no substance to this statement and in fact incredibly simplified the process that they have to go through.

Mewtwo and Roy were one thing. They were existing characters. They had animations that we knew. They had moves with parameters we knew. They had a metagame we knew. Most of the work, which was still a LOT of work, was spent on recreating these things, and then applying that extra touch by doing what they did to a lot of other characters by further specializing them.

This won't be the case for any new character. Everything is unknown. Animations. There is NO moveset to build on. Don't forget EACH move is made up of a complex combination of animations (which are extensive on their own), and a dozen parameters including hitbox, damage, timing, and knockback, among other things. Then there are all the non-moves, including just movement and idling.

Now look at a simple clone character. Think about how much effort it would take to BALANCE a character even if all the animations are fairly easy. Each move has to be redone still. Then it has to spend a lot of time balancing because there is no metagame. The level of planning has not really existed before. With all the other characters, it was mainly changes based on a known metagame.. and these changes would be small and subtle, affecting a few moves, but potentially have huge impacts on the game. Building a moveset from scratch, even from a clone character just dramatically amplified that difficult process because you do that for EVERY move, as well as changing the main physics of the character itself. And when you add this character, you create dozens of new, unknown matchups. And this is all for a character that's cloned off another.

Now for a clone engine character that is COMPLETELY unique... please just follow the path I've been outlining and realize how hard that is. If you're familiar with StarCraft, a game that's famous for its incredible balance... It's practically like creating another race.

That's why I keep saying... realistically, we should expect no more than TWO actual unique characters (that would probably include Isaac), one if we're lucky. Even the original PMBR post to comment on the clone engine SPECIFICALLY said it would be ideal if they were clones. And AGAIN, EVEN IF they are clones, you can still expect PMBR quality. Being a clone does not equate to lack of quality. It equates to having a product that can actually be done in a reasonable amount of time and energy.

It might be sobering for fans of having a special Lyn moveset, or voting for Ninten based on a proposed possible moveset, but that's the reality

 

[XStarWarriorX]

You can't say that she'd play worse than Zelda or anything. You just don't know. Or "just changing the effects" will not generate hype. Again, think of Captain Falcon and Ganondorf. Virtually all the same moves but with changes. Hey, including effect changes! Add shadow effects to Falcon's move (and replace fire with shadow when appropriate). It's more than that. There are many subtleties that make a completely different character.

And while we're on the subject, this is actually one thing I wanted to address. I keep seeing the same phrase, probably reiterated in different forms, but it's always the same:

"If the PMBR/DV is going to make a character. They're not going to make a clone. They're going to go all out because that's the kind of quality they do."

I feel like there's absolutely no substance to this statement and in fact incredibly simplified the process that they have to go through.

Mewtwo and Roy were one thing. They were existing characters. They had animations that we knew. They had moves with parameters we knew. They had a metagame we knew. Most of the work, which was still a LOT of work, was spent on recreating these things, and then applying that extra touch by doing what they did to a lot of other characters by further specializing them.

This won't be the case for any new character. Everything is unknown. Animations. There is NO moveset to build on. Don't forget EACH move is made up of a complex combination of animations (which are extensive on their own), and a dozen parameters including hitbox, damage, timing, and knockback, among other things. Then there are all the non-moves, including just movement and idling.

Now look at a simple clone character. Think about how much effort it would take to BALANCE a character even if all the animations are fairly easy. Each move has to be redone still. Then it has to spend a lot of time balancing because there is no metagame. The level of planning has not really existed before. With all the other characters, it was mainly changes based on a known metagame.. and these changes would be small and subtle, affecting a few moves, but potentially have huge impacts on the game. Building a moveset from scratch, even from a clone character just dramatically amplified that difficult process because you do that for EVERY move, as well as changing the main physics of the character itself. And when you add this character, you create dozens of new, unknown matchups. And this is all for a character that's cloned off another.

Now for a clone engine character that is COMPLETELY unique... please just follow the path I've been outlining and realize how hard that is. If you're familiar with StarCraft, a game that's famous for its incredible balance... It's practically like creating another race.

That's why I keep saying... realistically, we should expect no more than TWO actual unique characters (that would probably include Isaac), one if we're lucky. Even the original PMBR post to comment on the clone engine SPECIFICALLY said it would be ideal if they were clones. And AGAIN, EVEN IF they are clones, you can still expect PMBR quality. Being a clone does not equate to lack of quality. It equates to having a product that can actually be done in a reasonable amount of time and energy.

It might be sobering for fans of having a special Lyn moveset, or voting for Ninten based on a proposed possible moveset, but that's the reality

I understand what you're saying. But now that you said all that and if that's true, what if the PMBR didnt want to make a character at all? because it will change the meta and all that. Do you think its possible that they dont make anything?

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I understand what you're saying. But now that you said all that and if that's true, what if the PMBR didnt want to make a character at all? because it will change the meta and all that. Do you think its possible that they dont make anything?

If they won't make another character, they should have said so and locked this thread.

So I think one day we'll get something.

 

[Anti Guy]

I understand what you're saying. But now that you said all that and if that's true, what if the PMBR didnt want to make a character at all? because it will change the meta and all that. Do you think its possible that they dont make anything?

It won't necessarily change the metagame. I can imagine that when a new character comes out, if there are any issues, the character could simply be temporarily banned in tournaments until they make changes. And that would only be if the character is too strong. Therefore it'd make sense to make them more average-like or possible even underpowered at first so that they can get more exposure in tournaments and consequently have more data and feedback to work on.

Besides, they change the metagame with each update.

My point was that absolutely new characters don't have a metagame to build off of. At least clone characters are halfway there.

 

[MLGF]

I really dont understand your problem with lyn, how good the unit is shouldnt mean anything in smash bros, ex. Roy. if you have seen "lyn does what" you know that she can pretty much take on anything except the flame dragon, tho elixirs exist. She is not just a tutorial lord, she, hector, and eliwood are all part of the story. All FE tutorials are horrible so I dont get what the big deal is about that. My point is her moveset brings the hype. And thats what the PMDV wants. Michiah wont be a 1:1 Zelda. Honestly her moveset feels like it could be campy like if its just pure ranged magic. And she could take up alot of work for a moveset that might not be worth making, I could go on and on what makes an FE good/bad like how FE 6 isnt noob friendly but the route the enemy over and over ala awakening (waifu emblem) was a problem, and that final boss lol.... RD had some problems too as did FE 7 which is why I still think the older Fes are still the best ones. And yet I still consider Fe 7 better than the modern ones with POR a close second... even tho ike pretty much takes the strategy out.
I really dont wanna defend awakening but, IS took components from SS FE 4 etc. The only problem was the direction they took in the game to make it casual friendly/animuesque.

Anyway im rambling, shes up there with ridley and Isaac for a reason, not because of "muh waifu" or "muh Fe casual". Its because of her dynamic moveset not just generic sword slashes like everyone immediately assumes, (she has a bow also....) and how memorable the character still is, if she was just a "tutorial lord" like you said, then why is she so popular? Typing this on my phone was annoying to do so i might not reply, wanted to put this out there though.

Everyone knows that you aren't reaching htose stats unless you RNG abuse or give extreme favoritism. Plenty of units use those tools better, who cares about endgame potential when you have thirty chapters beforehand? If you want to keep everyone alive and beat the game as fast as possible, Lyn is bad. All there is to it.

And look, I don't care what you think of moveset potential and stuff. Go for it, this is Smash first and a mod primarily for Smash players. If Smash people want Lyn, go for it. Cool. As a FE fan however, Lyn is ass in her own game.

You're spending 11 chapters of extreme handholding. Nothing but extremely forced gimmicks with the game shoving down your throat what to do. Every other FE lets you learn as you go, but this FE does nothing but hand hold.

And Lyn is a tutorial lord. Good lord, she contributes nothing after her part. Most of her lines are really filler stuff. She's fluff and does nothing except give Hector some romance scene in his mode. Look through the script and show me one significant thing she adds after her mode. Key word being significant. Here, let me help out here:
http://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/scripts/scripts-translation/

Full script of FE7, go get'em tiger.

And as for love of retro FE. I get it I used to run that train. It's good. Holy Wars has a lot going for it, I think the more you play it (I ran through it 10ish times) the more you realize it's kinda broke and has the same problems as Awakening sometimes with a huge emphasis on stats and stomping enemies that come in swarms. Great game, but loses steam near the end of both parts. Path of Radiance is the only FE that rewards good play with BEXP which is like a never ending loop of awesomeness, I think you'd be out of your mind to deny that rewarding intelligent play is bad. Oh and its map designs never stop being brilliant. RD dropped the story bomb, but I could go on about why Path of Radiance is the best game on the Gamecube. Shots fired melee fans, come at me.

OK, but really. I think once you take off the nostalgia goggles you'll realize why FE7 is so badly written wise and when you start playing FE on HHM without arena abuse, you'll realize that Lyn dies to everything and there are way better units.

Still though, if you think she'll be fun in PM, go for it. A lot of other people seem to think so.
And Awakening's problem is not the casualization. Or at least that's not the root. I REALLY don't want to go into detail however.
Wow, never thought I'd be doing this again, I'm too old for this FE debate stuff.

 

[Ganondalf]

Ephraim best lord. Spear wielder sounds neat. And he has a sticker.

I'm playing devil's advocate. I really don't want another FE character

 

[TimeSmash]

Random, but now that I'm replaying Beyond Good and Evil, I would LOVE to see Jade get in. Not that it will ever happen but still

 

[Friesnchip]

I would literally bet my entire video game collection that there are no more characters beyond what's been shown in the leaks.

Oh. Well this seems like a pretty one sided bet that would only benefit whomever accepted it.

While I don't claim to believe that the leak left out characters or not, I'll certainly take your games if you're wrong ;3.

 

[GunBuster]

Hmm.

A lot to think about, wading through all this salt.

I think I've changed my mind regarding Lyn as a custom built character, but would still like to see her in as a clone. Anti Guy is right, the PMBR are looking more keenly towards characters that would be easier to semiclone. any that they put the time into building from scratch should probably be a series that isn't represented yet - i mean, seriously, i was pushing lyn for it, but I also want Sami in... as a snake clone. the self realization of the irony there is a bit embarrassing.

so if Lyn is a clone, I have to wonder who would be an ideal established character to base her off. a second marth would be a bit cheap, as most of his movements don't really mesh with her sword or style very well. my attention is turned to this -

her awakening artwork. the PMBR stated they were considering Marth's awakening outfit as his alt before they decided to start referencing other lords in the series. by this logic, unless i'm told otherwise, using her appearance here as a default is an option. it would certainly help distinguish her from the other lords and her assist trophy.

now, the dual wielding that exists solely in this art makes me think that she could be based off of Pit - she even holds the blades in the same fashion as pit's split bow blades. his bow as a weapon helps too. obvious changes would be the removal of the multiple jumps and anything regarding his shield. many of his attacks (all his throws, Dash, Ftilt, Dtilt, Dair, Bair, Fair, Fsmash, Dsmash) can be simply brought over, some of them modified (Pit's arrow without the aiming/guiding, Usmash without the 3rd strike, "A" combo without the spinning blade strikes) and would basically only need new work to replace pit's spinning blade strikes (Uair and Nair), a new Utilt (i can't see her using the swords like that), maybe a rising double strike for her Up B, an approach tool for her side B like pit's but more akin to lucario's double team, and ye old classic FE counter for her down B. a fast falling pit with more range, a better ground game and in a similar weight class - how does that sound? doable?

 

[Anti Guy]

Hmm.

A lot to think about, wading through all this salt.

I think I've changed my mind regarding Lyn as a custom built character, but would still like to see her in as a clone. Anti Guy is right, the PMBR are looking more keenly towards characters that would be easier to semiclone. any that they put the time into building from scratch should probably be a series that isn't represented yet - i mean, seriously, i was pushing lyn for it, but I also want Sami in... as a snake clone. the self realization of the irony there is a bit embarrassing.

so if Lyn is a clone, I have to wonder who would be an ideal established character to base her off. a second marth would be a bit cheap, as most of his movements don't really mesh with her sword or style very well. my attention is turned to this -

View attachment 24146

her awakening artwork. the PMBR stated they were considering Marth's awakening outfit as his alt before they decided to start referencing other lords in the series. by this logic, unless i'm told otherwise, using her appearance here as a default is an option. it would certainly help distinguish her from the other lords and her assist trophy.

now, the dual wielding that exists solely in this art makes me think that she could be based off of Pit - she even holds the blades in the same fashion as pit's split bow blades. his bow as a weapon helps too. obvious changes would be the removal of the multiple jumps and anything regarding his shield. many of his attacks (all his throws, Dash, Ftilt, Dtilt, Dair, Bair, Fair, Fsmash, Dsmash) can be simply brought over, some of them modified (Pit's arrow without the aiming/guiding, Usmash without the 3rd strike, "A" combo without the spinning blade strikes) and would basically only need new work to replace pit's spinning blade strikes (Uair and Nair), a new Utilt (i can't see her using the swords like that), maybe a rising double strike for her Up B, an approach tool for her side B like pit's but more akin to lucario's double team, and ye old classic FE counter for her down B. a fast falling pit with more range, a better ground game and in a similar weight class - how does that sound? doable?

Ehh... I'm strongly against using any Awakening costumes as a default. That's because those costumes are NOT canon. They take the character and rework them to give them clothes that match the generic model of that class. Why? Because they only use generic models. Lyn is based off the swordmaster with its frilly coat and two swords. Ike is based off a hero. Micaiah is based off a sorcerer. Ephraim a great knight. Alm was made into a demon fighter and Eirika into a bride. Etc, These characters are just extra non-canon characters that are part of DLC and shouldn't be used as a basis at all, except for possible alt costumes. Plus, Lyn never had dual blades, so it would be very weird. Although it would be cool to go outside the box, I feel like that would probably upset or confuse a lot of people who wanted Lyn.

 

[GunBuster]

Ehh... I'm strongly against using any Awakening costumes as a default. That's because those costumes are NOT canon. They take the character and rework them to give them clothes that match the generic model of that class. Why? Because they only use generic models. Lyn is based off the swordmaster with its frilly coat and two swords. Ike is based off a hero. Micaiah is based off a sorcerer. Ephraim a great knight. Alm was made into a demon fighter and Eirika into a bride. Etc, These characters are just extra non-canon characters that are part of DLC and shouldn't be used as a basis at all, except for possible alt costumes. Plus, Lyn never had dual blades, so it would be very weird. Although it would be cool to go outside the box, I feel like that would probably upset or confuse a lot of people who wanted Lyn.

I really didn't need you to explain how the awakening DLC works. i'm perfectly aware that they're cut corners incarnate concerning the character models and in the character art they are adapted to the classes they've been put as, and that they are non canon depictions - but smash is non-canon, they are still official artworks, and, while it varies, they are classed as at least something resembling what they were in their original appearances (lyn, practically a myrmidon lord). I'm pretty sure people who want lyn wouldn't hate her being based on the awakening DLC look - hell, she looks good in it, it does well to justify a semi clone from pit. and while the dual weilding is taken from the awakening art and not the game itself, you can't say smash doesn't make up moves and abilities for characters either. a bit of creativity couldn't hurt, especially concerning the prospective semi clones.

but, alright, in lack of dual wielding, i suppose Lyn (Original look) could still work as a pit clone with everything above adapted for one blade, and the awakening look as an alt.

 

[Linux_F_Smash]

I don t know if it has been mentioned but I think Blaziken would be a cool addition. I think it would be rather easy to implement possible cloning Lacario?? Plus I really want do this to my friends Lacario main every smash night :D

 

[MLGF]

Blaziken has been mentioned, but nobody wants interesting pokemon because Pichuhype.
All aboard the controversy train!
Choo-choo.

 

[-Coco-]

Count my vote in towards Paper Mario if he doesn't get in Smash 4.

You guys should seriously look at this thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/infi...or-ssb4-we-believe-in-you-paper-mario.324473/

It's really well done and shows off his moveset potential.

 

[Zarx1554]

Count my vote in towards Paper Mario if he doesn't get in Smash 4.

You guys should seriously look at this thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/infi...or-ssb4-we-believe-in-you-paper-mario.324473/

It's really well done and shows off his moveset potential.

Nah, PMBR probably won't addd any characters that aren't in previous smash games. Leaving us with Younglink(Who was replaced by younglink and has no chance of becoming an alternate now with PM 3.5) and pichu, which there are no plans for. Honestly, Paper Mario wouldn't be too bad of an idea for Sm4sh(except that there's already a lot of mario chars), but PM for P:M?

 

[Shin F.]

Nah, PMBR probably won't addd any characters that aren't in previous smash games. Leaving us with Younglink(Who was replaced by younglink and has no chance of becoming an alternate now with PM 3.5) and pichu, which there are no plans for. Honestly, Paper Mario wouldn't be too bad of an idea for Sm4sh(except that there's already a lot of mario chars), but PM for P:M?

Paper Mario falls well within the guidelines that PMBR set. Basically their only actual rules are that the character isn't in Smash 4 as a playable character and that they appear in Brawl somewhere.

 

[Anti Guy]

Nah, PMBR probably won't addd any characters that aren't in previous smash games. Leaving us with Younglink(Who was replaced by younglink and has no chance of becoming an alternate now with PM 3.5) and pichu, which there are no plans for. Honestly, Paper Mario wouldn't be too bad of an idea for Sm4sh(except that there's already a lot of mario chars), but PM for P:M?

Eh... There's been absolutely no indication of that. And they aren't adding Young Link (or for that matter, Dr. Mario).

 

[Alm5252]

I don t know if it has been mentioned but I think Blaziken would be a cool addition. I think it would be rather easy to implement possible cloning Lacario?? Plus I really want do this to my friends Lacario main every smash night :D

I think cloning Captain Falcon would be better for Blaziken. Plus he's all about Blaze Kicking, speed, and Fire Punches.

 

[Zarx1554]

Whoops, I said Young link was replaced by Young Link, I meant Toon Link.

 

[Anti Guy]

I think cloning Captain Falcon would be better for Blaziken. Plus he's all about Blaze Kicking, speed, and Fire Punches.

Agreed about Captain Falcon. Although I think most people here would also agree that it would be kind of a waste to clone Captain Falcon AGAIN.

Honestly, I think if you want to beat up Lucario with Blaziken, the best thing to do is to download the Blaziken skin for Captain Falcon and have at it. That's by far the easiest thing to do...

 

[Shin F.]

Agreed about Captain Falcon. Although I think most people here would also agree that it would be kind of a waste to clone Captain Falcon AGAIN.

Honestly, I think if you want to beat up Lucario with Blaziken, the best thing to do is to download the Blaziken skin for Captain Falcon and have at it. That's by far the easiest thing to do...

Yeah, and then you could Knee of Justice that Lucario, as well.

 

[Zarx1554]

Yeah, and then you could Knee of Justice that Lucario, as well.

Yeah, show him your moves!

 

[Anti Guy]

Yeah, and then you could Knee of Justice that Lucario, as well.

Yeah, show him your moves!

 

[InfinityCollision]

so if Lyn is a clone, I have to wonder who would be an ideal established character to base her off. a second marth would be a bit cheap, as most of his movements don't really mesh with her sword or style very well.

Throw Marth and ZSS in a blender and see what happens.

Totally not saying that just because that's what I'd want any future sword characters to play like, roughly speaking. Nope.

 

[GunBuster]

Throw Marth and ZSS in a blender and see what happens.

Totally not saying that just because that's what I'd want any future sword characters to play like, roughly speaking. Nope.

I like you.
i remember suggesting something similar on page 53 of this thread.

 

[Linux_F_Smash]

Blaziken skin??

 

[U-Throw]

Blaziken has been mentioned, but nobody wants interesting pokemon because Pichuhype.
All aboard the controversy train!
Choo-choo.

Are you insinuating that Pichu is an "uninteresting character?" Have I told you about Pichu Bros.? I can to direct you toward my post on them. If anything, Pichu as the Pichu Bros. could be one of the most interesting characters in the game, and can please a lot people, such as his Melee fans... You know what? Just read my post.

Spoiler

Well, first of all, they are only the second two-in-one character. And, while I acknowledge that's not exactly "new," I definently think its a point in Pichu Bros. favor. When you consider that the final Project M Roster can have up to 46 characters, having only one of a character archetype (in this case duos) is pathetically low. Adding just one character of that archetype can alleviate this problem, if only by an extremely small bit. This character can also appeal to a wide range of people. Pichu fans can be happy because he comes back. I acknowledge they are a very small minority, but also consider that making Pichu competitively viable via the Pichu Bros. (this is because they are getting twice the power due there being two of them, but at only regular recoil damage for each Pichu Bro.) could give them the potential to be rather popular among the competitive community due to his archetype having an extremely high learning curve because of the fact you have to ensure the safety of two characters and the fact they are a rarity in Smash Bros. because he is only one of two of his type, as well as the fact that his doubled power (which would likely be a major part of why he is competitively viable) relies on the fact that both Pichu Bro.'s attacks must connect in order for the double power to take effect, which requires substantial reading skill, a high amount of accuracy, and extremely good timing. In addition, he is different enough from both Pikachu and the Ice Climbers to potentially gain more popularity. Obviously, one of the main differences between the Pichu Bros. and the Ice Climbers is the fact that the Pichu Bros.'s moveset would be almost totally cloned from Pikachu. When seperated, both the Pichu Bros. and the Ice Climbers experience a drop in overall power. However, differences are furthered by the fact that a lone Pichu Bro. could still be somewhat viable, unlike a lone Ice Climber, who, if knocked off stage, practically means death due to his pathetic recovery. This is because Pichu has access to Agility, allowing decent solo recovery. But, to compensate somewhat, and also furthering the Pichu Bros. even more from the Ice Climbers, recovery as a team as the Pichu Bros. would be rather difficult, considering that only one person can grab a ledge, odds are one Pichu Bro. would die as a result of having Agilty as a recovery move. Ice Climbers, however, can both survive due to the way Belay works, if I remember correctly. Once again, this just distances the two pairs even more. Also, when desynched, the Pichu Bros. can still recover when seperated during a desynch due to Agility, whereas with the Ice Climbers it is practically impossible to recover when separated and desyched. This same principle of being able to recover when separated also applies to basic separation, especially when it is forces separation. This makes the Pichu Bros. able recover if knocked off-stage when forcibly separated, unlike the Ice Climbers. When it really comes down to it, the only real similarity between the Pichu Bros. and the Ice Climbers is that both are two-in-one-package characters. The Pichu Bros. would provide a completely different learning experience and play style from the Ice Climbers. In my opinion, these arguments should justify a place for him, but I'll go on in case you doubt it. They are also somewhat different from Pikachu. While the Pichu Bros.' moveset is almost completely cloned from Pikachu's, keep in mind there are two of Pichu, a drastic difference in and of itself. This makes learning to play the Pichu Bros. a completely different experience from learning to play Pikachu. You have to develop new skills and have excellent focus in order to use a two-in-one-character, especially when it comes to desynchs. Desynchs are important to the Ice Climbers, something that would probably carry over into the Pichu Bros. The different skills it takes to use a character that can desynch differentiates using Pikachu and Pichu drastically, and when you consider all the other differences between the two Pokemon, as well as the accuracy and timing it takes for the Pichu Bros.'s double power (something necessary to make it competitively viable) to be used properly, it becomes a completely different learning experience and play style, just like as with the Ice Climbers. Finally, let us not forget Pichu's most unique feature: his self-damage system. Pichu's gimmick is the fact that it hurts itself whenever it attacks, generally speaking. No other character in the entirety of Smash has this gimmick. Putting the Pichu Bros. in Project M brings back this truly unique gimmick, and allows them to create a character that depends on accuracy and timing unlike any other character. This is something very new that they bring to the table, because literally no other character in the game has the gimmick that the Pichu Bros. would have. Technically speaking, since the Pichu Bros. could have the Pichu from Melee as Pichu Little, they could be considered the only characters in Smash with this gimmick. This alone is something incredibly new that they bring to the table. In addition, they can be somewhat unique in that, while being small and fast, they also are rather powerful when it comes to blow-for-blow power. Maybe not necessarily overall power, but certainly blow-for-blow power. I say "somewhat unique" because of Squirtle, who is similar in this respect. Even then, they would only be the second character Project M like this, and to present a small difference between Pichu Bros. and Squirtle in this regard, the Pichu Bros.' wallop only truly kicks in when both a Pichu Bros. are present and both land the hit. So, let's review the new stuff that they bring.
-They're only the second of an uncommon archetype in Smash
-They are completely different from the Ice Climbers, with the only thing they truly have in common is the fact that they are both two-in-one characters
-They provide a completely different learning experience and play style from primarily Pikachu, but also the Ice Climbers
-They would be the only character in Project M to have their unique self-damage gimmick
-They depend on accuracy, timing, and reading skills like no other character, because it is this power that makes it competitively viable
-Unlike the Ice Climbers, they can recover when forcibly separated or when only one Pichu Bro. is left
-They are somewhat unique in the fact that, while being small and fast, they also pack a wallop when it comes to blow-for-blow power
-The difference between their blow-for-blow power and Squirtles's is the fact that the Pichu Bros.' power only truly kicks in when both are present and both land the hit
Overall, I think the Pichu Bros. could bring a lot of new stuff to the table and provide a unique learning experience and play style different not only from Pikachu and the Ice Climbers, but from the entire cast as a whole, because of the unique skills, gimmicks, and differences that they hinge on.

 

[Zarx1554]

All Smash Pokemon have something in the anime that is recent(except for jiggs, though is in the original 12). With that being said, Blaziken could work, Pichu Bros would have, but Melee was still being produced then. The Pokémon usuallyn take on big roles(more than one episode, or have a movie), so Zoroark, Genesect,The Three Legendary dogs(That might not work, as all smash characters have arms and legs, not, just legs), Diancie, Xerneas, Yveltal, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Keldeo, Cobalion, Virizion, Terrakion, or magikarp. That's all I could think for movies, except for magikarp. I just said magikarp for karp sake

 

[ChronoBound]

Micaiah and Lyn deserved to be in Project M more than Roy.
No Fire Emblem fan cares about Roy. The only people who care about Roy are Smash fans.

WRONG. Roy is the most popular GBA lord in Japan among FE fans. Heck, FE6 is popular in general there.

I am tired of Roy haters spouting the same untrue crap time and time again.

 

[MLGF]

Chrono, let's not kid ourselves.

Western FE fans do hate Roy and it's not like many of us have constant conversations with our eastern fanbase. It's reasonable to assume that some would insinuate that they have similar opinions.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

Are you insinuating that Pichu is an "uninteresting character?" Have I told you about Pichu Bros.? I can to direct you toward my post on them. If anything, Pichu as the Pichu Bros. could be one of the most interesting characters in the game, and can please a lot people, such as his Melee fans... You know what? Just read my post.

Spoiler

So, let's review the new stuff that they bring.
-They're only the second of an uncommon archetype in Smash
-They are completely different from the Ice Climbers, with the only thing they truly have in common is the fact that they are both two-in-one characters
-They provide a completely different learning experience and play style from primarily Pikachu, but also the Ice Climbers
-They would be the only character in Project M to have their unique self-damage gimmick
-They depend on accuracy, timing, and reading skills like no other character, because it is this power that makes it competitively viable
-Unlike the Ice Climbers, they can recover when forcibly separated or when only one Pichu Bro. is left
-They are somewhat unique in the fact that, while being small and fast, they also pack a wallop when it comes to blow-for-blow power
-The difference between their blow-for-blow power and Squirtles's is the fact that the Pichu Bros.' power only truly kicks in when both are present and both land the hit
Overall, I think the Pichu Bros. could bring a lot of new stuff to the table and provide a unique learning experience and play style different not only from Pikachu and the Ice Climbers, but from the entire cast as a whole, because of the unique skills, gimmicks, and differences that they hinge on.

I can't remember liking your spoiler or not but looking back there were things that needed to be addressed and the best way for me to do that is to pick at your review.

(Everything with edit is me actually reading that load of text that hurt my eyes since no paragraphs were used instead of skipping to the points you made)

Spoiler

-They're only the second of an uncommon archetype in Smash

I'm okay with this logic. We only have one character slot that's a duo archetype, Ice Climbers, so I wouldn't mind another if they had a different playstyle than them

-They are completely different from the Ice Climbers, with the only thing they truly have in common is the fact that they are both two-in-one characters

The way you explained the Pichu Bros. makes them different from the Ice Climbers (in the sense of being a different character) and Pikachu (in the sense of being a duo character; yet still a semi-clone) but it's just an additional Pichu that has access to Wobbles (not complaining, just stating what I got from reading the spoiler). I would prefer Pichu use team based specials and when they are separated it reverts back to Pichu's regular moveset...it sounds better and more logical than the double the power motif you're bringing and it makes the character feel fresh and the more Pichu is away from Pikachu without breaking their lore would be good. Ex. side b should be volt tackle, Pichu bros run simultaneously so visually they look like they're running as one; utilizes self damage for high amounts of damage but to balance it out it has less knockback compared to most high damage moves (Players needs to find another way of taking a stock from the opponent but volt tackle's high percentage output makes that easier for them)

-They would be the only character in Project M to have their unique self-damage gimmick

I always had a problem with this gimmick it reminded me of Lucario in Brawl's gimmick yet it was flipped; instead of getting stronger by the amount of damage he takes you have the option of making yourself stronger by doing damage to yourself. Self-damage in Smash is more trouble than it's worth to balance; if this was a game that uses health bars instead of percentages then I would understand but since it uses the latter it becomes difficult and here is why:

1. It hinders the player. Whether it's early stock taking damage for doing thundershock pressure or mid stock missing your moves and harming yourself in the process Pichu Bros. becomes a huge liability (late stock is not included because you will either be at your new stock or playing incredibly defensive to survive by dealing 50%+ damage to yourself + the damage the opponent inflicts on you)

2.It limits the player. I know some of Pichu's moves don't use self-damage this will bring about certain types of Pichu players: the reckless/rushdown types (who don't care about their percentage so they use their moves freely), the safe/cautious types (those who would rather combo into self damage moves to maximize damage output or those who rarely use self damaging moves), and a mixture of both (change of playstyle could change from early to mid stock. I like characters that bring new aspects and new types of players to the Smash scene but this goes both ways. It will make Pichu Bros. learning curve so steep it ruins his competitive value unless there are players that know how to confirm Pichu Bros combos at any given percent rate making him pretty exclusive to pro players in terms of mastery...or it can be a wobble-fest like Ice Climbers, I honestly don't know.

3. Give and take mentality. Double the power seems overpowered just by seeing the word double makes me wonder if Pichu Bros. will take back double the self-damage. It was never implied in your spoiler how self-damage would work in Project M (so I'm going to assume it will be like Melee). How will this be balanced? That question makes self-damage as a gimmick more trouble than it's worth. The only Pichu example I liked that would make the character interesting is by giving the player the ability to control the self damage gimmick either by pressing b a second time (might be difficult with certain specials) or holding b (for at most a second since most moves in Smash you only need to press b to have come out; more realistic). Not to say your idea of Pichu Bros. is bad (I admire the creativity), it just poses more questions to Pichu as a whole.

Edit: It appears you're using give and take mentality to justify "double the power" but in a balancing aspect this is wrong. Project M sole purpose is balance which I believe to be overall balance. Your interpretation of Pichu Bros. is by making them overpowered when they're duo and sh*t tier Pichu when it's seperate. You even go as far as to make Pichu Bros. recovery as a duo character terrible where it lowers the duo archetype of Pichu to an incredibly short duration. Steep learning curve aside, this makes Pichu Bros. impractical....almost impossible to play competitively unless you (as the player) can't get sent off the stage without first getting rid of the opponent's stock. My points try to address Pichu Bros. as an overall character, hopefully this can bring new ideas or you can convince me how such an impractical character can be competitive.

-They depend on accuracy, timing, and reading skills like no other character, because it is this power that makes it competitively viable
Oh, I just saw this but I briefly touched on this above with how steep a learning curve Pichu would have. Having a steep learning curve doesn't make the character non-competitive but it drives people away from using the character in the competitive scene. I could be downplaying Smashers so at this point I consider Pichu Bros. competitive viability moot because it ultimately depends on how self-damage works whether it's overpowered, underpowered, or balanced.

Edit: After reading how you intend Pichu Bros. to be, it will be difficult, if not, impossible to have him competitively viable

-Unlike the Ice Climbers, they can recover when forcibly separated or when only one Pichu Bro. is left

This is a major problem. Ice Climber's recovery is a necessity for duo characters because it allows for both characters to recover safely on the stage. Separate recoveries for duo characters is a terrible idea. If you're familiar with the Project M glitch where one controller can play as two characters it is the same as that (don't know if they fixed this or not). Let's say Ike forward smashes the Pichu Bros off Final Destination, the knockback puts both Pichus 3-4 cm apart and since you control one Pichu perfectly (because you are putting majority of your focus on that Pichu) you up B to safety while the other Pichu up b's to it's death. Do you see how weird that looks and how confusing it would be to recover if you are separated at a certain distance?

Edit: I see that you intended for this to happen. And this intention ruins Pichu's competitive viability. It would be incredibly easy to remove one Pichu off the stage since almost any character in the current cast can outrange them. Solo Pichu has always been frail and weaker than a solo Ice Climber in my opinion. The only thing Pichu has better than a solo Ice Climber is his recovery (as you stated) but what little that would do with the increased knockback you will take. Ice Climber's playstyle is to keep Popo and Nana alive for as long as possible, defining the duo archetype. What's the point of making a duo character that loses it's duo so easily? It's like having a pair team of character x with sandbag and having sandbag fall off the stage every 20 seconds he's there

Double Edit: To prevent any form of argument in terms of recovery since through your post you believe seperate recovery to be a good thing. If it were any other character maybe but Pichu and Pikachu are special cases. Their Up B's can be used twice in the different directions and the fact they can be used twice is what makes it harder to recover while trying to focus on both. I don't have an example for this claim but if you try to imagine it, probably with the Ike example above you will see that it would be difficult.

-They are somewhat unique in the fact that, while being small and fast, they also pack a wallop when it comes to blow-for-blow power

I'm okay with this but at this point seems like you're trying to overstress how unique Pichu Bros. would be. I just think this point doesn't mean as much compared to the other ones before it but it's still an okay point but you could've included it in the Ice Climbers point because Pichu Bros. being more nimble makes them more different than the normal speed Icies.

-The difference between their blow-for-blow power and Squirtles's is the fact that the Pichu Bros.' power only truly kicks in when both are present and both land the hit

I'm okay with this. Pretty much what all duo characters should be; 2 > 1.

Edit: Which is why it's important to keep them both alive and not have them so limited.

Overall, I think the Pichu Bros. could bring a lot of new stuff to the table and provide a unique learning experience and play style different not only from Pikachu and the Ice Climbers, but from the entire cast as a whole, because of the unique skills, gimmicks, and differences that they hinge on.

Can bring a new aspect to the table
Semi-clone of Pikachu but still can be different as a duo character
Only similarity to Ice Climber is by duo archetype, other than that, completely different (Edit: I know you're trying to make Pichu Bros. unique as a duo archetype but your design makes duo Pichu overpowered (in terms of power) as well as terrible at the same time (in terms of recovery))

Problems:
1. Recovery
2.Self-damage balance (It can go a multitude of ways; too much trouble than it's worth)
3. Requires new specials because other's become redundant as a duo character (can be the same Melee Pichu special moveset when seperated); if possible duo moveset for side b (grounded) at least (ex. Melee Pichu side b (exclusive to the ground) changed to Volt Tackle)

Concerns:
1, Learning curve
2. Self damage properties (rather it be controlled as it doesn't limit the player from...playing)

 

[arcticfox8]

I don t know if it has been mentioned but I think Blaziken would be a cool addition. I think it would be rather easy to implement possible cloning Lacario?? Plus I really want do this to my friends Lacario main every smash night :D

*whispers in your ear* Pokken Tournament
*fades back into the abyss*

 

[ChronoBound]

Chrono, let's not kid ourselves.

Western FE fans do hate Roy and it's not like many of us have constant conversations with our eastern fanbase. It's reasonable to assume that some would insinuate that they have similar opinions.

They don't hate Roy. You are talking about a minority of a minority of FE fans that have played Japan-only games.

Heck, I did a poll one time, and most of the Roy-bashers are people who have not even played FE6. They pretty much just parrot the opinions of others, or under the delusion that he ****blocked their waifu (insert female FE character of choice) out of Smash Bros.

 

[U-Throw]

All Smash Pokemon have something in the anime that is recent(except for jiggs, though is in the original 12). With that being said, Blaziken could work, Pichu Bros would have, but Melee was still being produced then. The Pokémon usuallyn take on big roles(more than one episode, or have a movie), so Zoroark, Genesect,The Three Legendary dogs(That might not work, as all smash characters have arms and legs, not, just legs), Diancie, Xerneas, Yveltal, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Keldeo, Cobalion, Virizion, Terrakion, or magikarp. That's all I could think for movies, except for magikarp. I just said magikarp for karp sake

That's true. But, Blaziken's roll in the anime recently, and please correct me if I'm wrong, was not a major recurring roll, and he was just another Pokémon. Pichu Bros., on the other hand, were given names and were central characters in a short. They are still remembered today, some 5-6, maybe more, years after their debut, and they've rarely made appearances outside of small cameos since then. Blaziken's roll may have been more recent, but the Pichu Bros. are fondly remembered. And, also remember that the PMDT needs to be considered. Pichu Bros. can be made with a rather simple model, since they don't require near as many colors or texturing, seeing as how Blaziken's fur/feathers would probably be made pronounced, similar to Lucario's fur. Also, Pichu Bros'. moveset would require substantially less work, since almost all of Pikachu's code could be ripped, and then modified for attributes such as knockback angle, damage, elemental side-effect, self-damage, etc. Blaziken's moveset would be able to recycle elements from Lucario/Captain Falcon, several elements would have to be revamped, and certain moves completely changed. Finally, Pichu has an entire set of voice clips ready to roll, whereas Blaziken's voice clips would need to be made from scratch.

I can't remember liking your spoiler or not but looking back there were things that needed to be addressed and the best way for me to do that is to pick at your review.

(Everything with edit is me actually reading that load of text that hurt my eyes since no paragraphs were used instead of skipping to the points you made)

Spoiler

-They're only the second of an uncommon archetype in Smash

I'm okay with this logic. We only have one character slot that's a duo archetype, Ice Climbers, so I wouldn't mind another if they had a different playstyle than them

-They are completely different from the Ice Climbers, with the only thing they truly have in common is the fact that they are both two-in-one characters

The way you explained the Pichu Bros. makes them different from the Ice Climbers (in the sense of being a different character) and Pikachu (in the sense of being a duo character; yet still a semi-clone) but it's just an additional Pichu that has access to Wobbles (not complaining, just stating what I got from reading the spoiler). I would prefer Pichu use team based specials and when they are separated it reverts back to Pichu's regular moveset...it sounds better and more logical than the double the power motif you're bringing and it makes the character feel fresh and the more Pichu is away from Pikachu without breaking their lore would be good. Ex. side b should be volt tackle, Pichu bros run simultaneously so visually they look like they're running as one; utilizes self damage for high amounts of damage but to balance it out it has less knockback compared to most high damage moves (Players needs to find another way of taking a stock from the opponent but volt tackle's high percentage output makes that easier for them)

-They would be the only character in Project M to have their unique self-damage gimmick

I always had a problem with this gimmick it reminded me of Lucario in Brawl's gimmick yet it was flipped; instead of getting stronger by the amount of damage he takes you have the option of making yourself stronger by doing damage to yourself. Self-damage in Smash is more trouble than it's worth to balance; if this was a game that uses health bars instead of percentages then I would understand but since it uses the latter it becomes difficult and here is why:

1. It hinders the player. Whether it's early stock taking damage for doing thundershock pressure or mid stock missing your moves and harming yourself in the process Pichu Bros. becomes a huge liability (late stock is not included because you will either be at your new stock or playing incredibly defensive to survive by dealing 50%+ damage to yourself + the damage the opponent inflicts on you)

2.It limits the player. I know some of Pichu's moves don't use self-damage this will bring about certain types of Pichu players: the reckless/rushdown types (who don't care about their percentage so they use their moves freely), the safe/cautious types (those who would rather combo into self damage moves to maximize damage output or those who rarely use self damaging moves), and a mixture of both (change of playstyle could change from early to mid stock. I like characters that bring new aspects and new types of players to the Smash scene but this goes both ways. It will make Pichu Bros. learning curve so steep it ruins his competitive value unless there are players that know how to confirm Pichu Bros combos at any given percent rate making him pretty exclusive to pro players in terms of mastery...or it can be a wobble-fest like Ice Climbers, I honestly don't know.

3. Give and take mentality. Double the power seems overpowered just by seeing the word double makes me wonder if Pichu Bros. will take back double the self-damage. It was never implied in your spoiler how self-damage would work in Project M (so I'm going to assume it will be like Melee). How will this be balanced? That question makes self-damage as a gimmick more trouble than it's worth. The only Pichu example I liked that would make the character interesting is by giving the player the ability to control the self damage gimmick either by pressing b a second time (might be difficult with certain specials) or holding b (for at most a second since most moves in Smash you only need to press b to have come out; more realistic). Not to say your idea of Pichu Bros. is bad (I admire the creativity), it just poses more questions to Pichu as a whole.

Edit: It appears you're using give and take mentality to justify "double the power" but in a balancing aspect this is wrong. Project M sole purpose is balance which I believe to be overall balance. Your interpretation of Pichu Bros. is by making them overpowered when they're duo and sh*t tier Pichu when it's seperate. You even go as far as to make Pichu Bros. recovery as a duo character terrible where it lowers the duo archetype of Pichu to an incredibly short duration. Steep learning curve aside, this makes Pichu Bros. impractical....almost impossible to play competitively unless you (as the player) can't get sent off the stage without first getting rid of the opponent's stock. My points try to address Pichu Bros. as an overall character, hopefully this can bring new ideas or you can convince me how such an impractical character can be competitive.

-They depend on accuracy, timing, and reading skills like no other character, because it is this power that makes it competitively viable
Oh, I just saw this but I briefly touched on this above with how steep a learning curve Pichu would have. Having a steep learning curve doesn't make the character non-competitive but it drives people away from using the character in the competitive scene. I could be downplaying Smashers so at this point I consider Pichu Bros. competitive viability moot because it ultimately depends on how self-damage works whether it's overpowered, underpowered, or balanced.

Edit: After reading how you intend Pichu Bros. to be, it will be difficult, if not, impossible to have him competitively viable

-Unlike the Ice Climbers, they can recover when forcibly separated or when only one Pichu Bro. is left

This is a major problem. Ice Climber's recovery is a necessity for duo characters because it allows for both characters to recover safely on the stage. Separate recoveries for duo characters is a terrible idea. If you're familiar with the Project M glitch where one controller can play as two characters it is the same as that (don't know if they fixed this or not). Let's say Ike forward smashes the Pichu Bros off Final Destination, the knockback puts both Pichus 3-4 cm apart and since you control one Pichu perfectly (because you are putting majority of your focus on that Pichu) you up B to safety while the other Pichu up b's to it's death. Do you see how weird that looks and how confusing it would be to recover if you are separated at a certain distance?

Edit: I see that you intended for this to happen. And this intention ruins Pichu's competitive viability. It would be incredibly easy to remove one Pichu off the stage since almost any character in the current cast can outrange them. Solo Pichu has always been frail and weaker than a solo Ice Climber in my opinion. The only thing Pichu has better than a solo Ice Climber is his recovery (as you stated) but what little that would do with the increased knockback you will take. Ice Climber's playstyle is to keep Popo and Nana alive for as long as possible, defining the duo archetype. What's the point of making a duo character that loses it's duo so easily? It's like having a pair team of character x with sandbag and having sandbag fall off the stage every 20 seconds he's there

Double Edit: To prevent any form of argument in terms of recovery since through your post you believe seperate recovery to be a good thing. If it were any other character maybe but Pichu and Pikachu are special cases. Their Up B's can be used twice in the different directions and the fact they can be used twice is what makes it harder to recover while trying to focus on both. I don't have an example for this claim but if you try to imagine it, probably with the Ike example above you will see that it would be difficult.

-They are somewhat unique in the fact that, while being small and fast, they also pack a wallop when it comes to blow-for-blow power

I'm okay with this but at this point seems like you're trying to overstress how unique Pichu Bros. would be. I just think this point doesn't mean as much compared to the other ones before it but it's still an okay point but you could've included it in the Ice Climbers point because Pichu Bros. being more nimble makes them more different than the normal speed Icies.

-The difference between their blow-for-blow power and Squirtles's is the fact that the Pichu Bros.' power only truly kicks in when both are present and both land the hit

I'm okay with this. Pretty much what all duo characters should be; 2 > 1.

Edit: Which is why it's important to keep them both alive and not have them so limited.

Overall, I think the Pichu Bros. could bring a lot of new stuff to the table and provide a unique learning experience and play style different not only from Pikachu and the Ice Climbers, but from the entire cast as a whole, because of the unique skills, gimmicks, and differences that they hinge on.

Can bring a new aspect to the table
Semi-clone of Pikachu but still can be different as a duo character
Only similarity to Ice Climber is by duo archetype, other than that, completely different (Edit: I know you're trying to make Pichu Bros. unique as a duo archetype but your design makes duo Pichu overpowered (in terms of power) as well as terrible at the same time (in terms of recovery))

Problems:
1. Recovery
2.Self-damage balance (It can go a multitude of ways; too much trouble than it's worth)
3. Requires new specials because other's become redundant as a duo character (can be the same Melee Pichu special moveset when seperated); if possible duo moveset for side b (grounded) at least (ex. Melee Pichu side b (exclusive to the ground) changed to Volt Tackle)

Concerns:
1, Learning curve
2. Self damage properties (rather it be controlled as it doesn't limit the player from...playing)

I sincerely apologize for the wall of text. But, anyway, I see where you're coming from about my idea being contradictory. You know, the whole "Why have a duo if they can be separated so easily" deal. I totally understand. One way, I suppose, that could be solved would be having a concept similar to Ice Climbers in that when they use Agility, they zoom together if they're too far apart (with limited range, of course) and hold hands or something while they use Agility. When one P-Bro. is alone or if they are forcibly separated, it functions just like normal Agility. This makes their survivability as a team much longer, presumably solving that issue, while also allowing the two to keep their distance from the IC's and Pikachu. About the double power thing, I think it could be cranked down a little, to prevent overpowered-ness, while also allowing them to keep the self-damage system. While we're on that, you were correct in the assumption that I imagined it working like Melee's. It could, however, be changed or tweaked for balancing reasons. I would object to it being removed completely because I feel it is one of the things that makes the Pichu Bros. the Pichu Bros. I'm not sure how to fix the steep learning curve, but would guess that my previous two suggestions would at least alleviate it a tiny bit. And, I know you said that balancing the self-damage system would be more work than what it's worth, and I honestly don't know how to respond that with a valid argument. I reckon we would just have to see how the P-Bros.' competitive scene would play out. It may be far easier than predicted, or unfathomably hard. The whole high-learning curve I think you are right about. It's steep, and I think my idea for Agility may fix it up a little bit. Maybe you could suggest something? I would really like to hear your idea on how to fix the learning curve.
Also, I don't think the whole swapping movesets depending on the presence of one Pichu is technically feasible, and I'm pretty sure Wobbling was removed for the IC's P:M debut. Please tell me if I'm wrong about either.

 

[Zarx1554]

Sadly, I think we won't be getting new character, until at least 4.0. Even then, P:M is targeted towards making Brawl more like Melee, so adding a lot of characters is something not in mind. I did try a mod for P:M, Project M+. It adds younglink and pichu, through the Brawl Ex clone engine. However, the characters were designed for brawl, so If you tried wavedashing or pressing L/R to get up fast, the game would crash. If I knew the P:M clone engine, which the PMBR will never discuss, I could make them usuable and stable.