New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Shin F.]

For Tails/Knuckles/Shadow's cons, how is "Yet another 3rd-party character." supposed to be a con? Those 3 characters are already licensed to be in Brawl in some way, so how would being 3rd-party be a bad thing? I'm confused.

Super Smash Bros is a Nintendo game. Thus, Nintendo characters have a higher priority than guest characters, which many feel should be limited so as to not lose the focus on Nintendo series.

 

[LEGOfan12]

Super Smash Bros is a Nintendo game. Thus, Nintendo characters have a higher priority than guest characters, which many feel should be limited so as to not lose the focus on Nintendo series.

Oh, okay.

 

[GunBuster]

My feels... They ache. ;-;

They look similar, yeah. But, this is because of the technological limits of the games' systems.

In game they are very different characters. And as we've explained, Ninten's design can be worked to look very different and still represent his appearance in Mother 1 well.

That's actually one of my favorite things about the character. Some people see it as,

He has a sprite design that's just like Ness. Guess he'd just look like Ness.

I see it as,

He has a sprite design that looks like Ness. Now we as a community have the opportunity to make a more original design with what we have.

okay, i do like your mindset about this, even if i think all of the extra bits that are being used to push him away from ness are a bit reaching.



and really, being a character export is about more than just design.

 

[Shin F.]

okay, i do like your mindset about this, even if i think all of the extra bits that are being used to push him away from ness are a bit reaching.

and really, being a character export is about more than just design.

Expy. The word you're looking for is expy, not export.

And there's not much else they have in common other than that and their use of a bat as a weapon. Ninten's lack of offensive PSI gives him a greater focus on buffs and shields than Ness has in the original games, and for the purposes of Smash, It's been said that Ninten could be given PK Beam since that attack is exclusive to Mother 1.

Give him 4th-D Slip as a teleporting recovery instead of the standard PK Thunder, Quick Up to mirror Lucas' Offense Up, PK Beam as a more laser-like attack (possibly a charging attack) and then make his normals come half from Ness and half from Lucas, with modified qualities, and you have character that's very distinct from both of their bases with very minimal effort.

 

[Solbliminal]

Expy. The word you're looking for is expy, not export.

And there's not much else they have in common other than that and their use of a bat as a weapon. Ninten's lack of offensive PSI gives him a greater focus on buffs and shields than Ness has in the original games, and for the purposes of Smash, It's been said that Ninten could be given PK Beam since that attack is exclusive to Mother 1.

Give him 4th-D Slip as a teleporting recovery instead of the standard PK Thunder, Quick Up to mirror Lucas' Offense Up, PK Beam as a more laser-like attack (possibly a charging attack) and then make his normals come half from Ness and half from Lucas, with modified qualities, and you have character that's very distinct from both of their bases with very minimal effort.

Not sure about that quick up thing. I wasn't a fan of that change to Lucas with the offense up. Otherwise, that sounds pretty nasty. I'm almost inclined to suggest he take some cues from Mewtwo as well.

EDIT: Actually scratch that. My head is in the clouds right now. I derped and missed the part where you mentioned he was given a focus of buffs and shields. I'm actually going to look into this and see if I can suggest something meaningful.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Not sure about that quick up thing. I wasn't a fan of that change to Lucas with the offense up. Otherwise, that sounds pretty nasty. I'm almost inclined to suggest he take some cues from Mewtwo as well.

EDIT: Actually scratch that. My head is in the clouds right now. I derped and missed the part where you mentioned he was given a focus of buffs and shields. I'm actually going to look into this and see if I can suggest something meaningful.

Quick Up would be awesome, imo. Only Ninten can learn it, as far as I can remember.

Y u no liek Offense Up? That's my favorite thing about PM Lucas! It makes him the closest yet to properly representing the protagonists' support type.

Expy. The word you're looking for is expy, not export.

And there's not much else they have in common other than that and their use of a bat as a weapon. Ninten's lack of offensive PSI gives him a greater focus on buffs and shields than Ness has in the original games, and for the purposes of Smash, It's been said that Ninten could be given PK Beam since that attack is exclusive to Mother 1.

Give him 4th-D Slip as a teleporting recovery instead of the standard PK Thunder, Quick Up to mirror Lucas' Offense Up, PK Beam as a more laser-like attack (possibly a charging attack) and then make his normals come half from Ness and half from Lucas, with modified qualities, and you have character that's very distinct from both of their bases with very minimal effort.

This was perfect. Someone put this in a text book so we never forget.

 

[Solbliminal]

Quick Up would be awesome, imo. Only Ninten can learn it, as far as I can remember.

Y u no liek Offense Up? That's my favorite thing about PM Lucas! It makes him the closest yet to properly representing the protagonists' support type.

Well that is something you like about Lucas. I personally don't like having to rely on a charge move to make my attacks effective. It seriously drove me away from P:M Lucas pretty quickly. And having something similar to that with Ninten would immediately drive me away from him too.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Well that is something you like about Lucas. I personally don't like having to rely on a charge move to make my attacks effective. It seriously drove me away from P:M Lucas pretty quickly. And having something similar to that with Ninten would immediately drive me away from him too.

Well look at it this way:

Lucas's smashes still work without it, they're just buffed by the charge. You have to find time mid match to charge up to benefit you later on.

In a similar sense, Ninten wouldn't be useless without QuickUp's charge. Just allowing him to gain it makes him more effective. It's not like if you don't get OffenseUp or QuickUp your character is **** all of a sudden.

 

[Solbliminal]

Well look at it this way:

Lucas's smashes still work without it, they're just buffed by the charge. You have to find time mid match to charge up to benefit you later on.

In a similar sense, Ninten wouldn't be useless without QuickUp's charge. Just allowing him to gain it makes him more effective. It's not like if you don't get OffenseUp or QuickUp your character is **** all of a sudden.

I still stand by what I said before. Not having access to another useful move and completely ignoring a move I don't enjoy would just end up making me drop the character. It happened with Lucas and it would definitely happen to Ninten if he carries that over from Lucas.

 

[Sour Supreme]

I still stand by what I said before. Not having access to another useful move and completely ignoring a move I don't enjoy would just end up making me drop the character. It happened with Lucas and it would definitely happen to Ninten if he carries that over from Lucas.

Fair enough. I can see what you mean.

So, let's talk OffenseUp Discharge. Just kidding.

But what if when you discharged QuickUp the opponent had the knockback of OU2 (Can I even call it that?) except it was in slow motion.

Can you say follow ups?!

Yes I realize this is most likely technologically impossible, thanks for playing.

 

[Solbliminal]

Fair enough. I can see what you mean.

So, let's talk OffenseUp Discharge. Just kidding.

But what if when you discharged QuickUp the opponent had the knockback of OU2 (Can I even call it that?) except it was in slow motion.

Can you say follow ups?!

Yes I realize this is most likely technologically impossible, thanks for playing.

Lets forget about that for a sec and talk about 4th D-Slip. I thought of a neat way it could work as both an attack and recovery using PK Flash/Freeze as base move. The move would control similar to that of Lucas' former PK Freeze, and he would teleport to the point where it stops or is released at. If it lands a successful hit it would put the opponent into a juggle state. Does this sound possible?

 

[Sour Supreme]

Lets forget about that for a sec and talk about 4th D-Slip. I thought of a neat way it could work as both an attack and recovery using PK Flash/Freeze as base move. The move would control similar to that of Lucas' former PK Freeze, and he would teleport to the point where it stops or is released at. If it lands a successful hit it would put the opponent into a juggle state. Does this sound possible?

It definitely sound interesting.

Might want to buff speed though. If it had PK Freeze's it would be pretty damn easy to read.

 

[Solbliminal]

It definitely sound interesting.

Might want to buff speed though. If it had PK Freeze's it would be pretty damn easy to read.

That is why I said similarly to that of PK Freeze. I do agree that it would need some sort of speed buff or something along those lines.

 

[Sour Supreme]

That is why I said similarly to that of PK Freeze. I do agree that it would need some sort of speed buff or something along those lines.

Are you thinking Ninten would drop until Tumble at the end point? Or could he act out of it?

 

[Shin F.]

Lets forget about that for a sec and talk about 4th D-Slip. I thought of a neat way it could work as both an attack and recovery using PK Flash/Freeze as base move. The move would control similar to that of Lucas' former PK Freeze, and he would teleport to the point where it stops or is released at. If it lands a successful hit it would put the opponent into a juggle state. Does this sound possible?

If it were being based on the way PK Freeze works, I would make his model disappear when the attack starts up, then reappear where the attack ends rather than remaining in place as he uses it. Put a hitbox around it like Zelda's, and it could work pretty well.

 

[Sour Supreme]

If it were being based on the way PK Freeze works, I would make his model disappear when the attack starts up, then reappear where the attack ends rather than remaining in place as he uses it. Put a hitbox around it like Zelda's, and it could work pretty well.

This is similar to your old envision.

It makes sense too. Ninten is in the 4th Dimension, and the PSI graphic is almost like seeing him move the through time and space all spiritually and ****.

 

[Solbliminal]

Are you thinking Ninten would drop until Tumble at the end point? Or could he act out of it?

Totally act out of dat shet brah.

 

[Shin F.]

This is similar to your old envision.

It makes sense too. Ninten is in the 4th Dimension, and the PSI graphic is almost like seeing him move the through time and space all spiritually and ****.

With less freedom of movement, yeah.

 

[Solbliminal]

With less freedom of movement, yeah.

Maybe he could have similar control to that of PK Thunder then .

 

[Shin F.]

Maybe he could have similar control to that of PK Thunder then .

That was the original idea, but that may be a bit OP considering that basically means he can teleport to anywhere from anywhere. I like the more limited movement.

 

[Sour Supreme]

With less freedom of movement, yeah.

Totally act out of dat shet brah.

Shin had an old similar concept, but it allowed you to move in all directions, unlike PK Freeze/Flash's restrictive movement.

With that concept, Ninten was put into tumble. The motivation was that the move was hard to follow, so anyone who could do so could be rewarded.

So we either have
Restrictive Movement = Act Out
or
Free Movement = Tumble

I'd be fine with either, tbh.

 

[Ganondalf]

We can argue all day the level of 'cloneliness' of a character but the fact still stands that Ninten is extremely similar to both Ness and Lucas (who are very similar already). He is a kid, with similar art style, with similar moves and abilities. It's boring. Give us a villain or some other Earthbound character who won't be so similar, that's all I'm say.

 

[Solbliminal]

-My Opinion-

What's that you say? Your opinion is different than ours? Thanks for noticing.

 

[Ganondalf]

I'm being passive aggressive

Stop it. I think we have all said our peace regarding Ninten and none of our votes are changing it doesn't appear, so why beat the dead clonehorse?

 

[Sour Supreme]

We can argue all day the level of 'cloneliness' of a character but the fact still stands that Ninten is extremely similar to both Ness and Lucas (who are very similar already). He is a kid, with similar art style, with similar moves and abilities. It's boring. Give us a villain or some other Earthbound character who won't be so similar, that's all I'm say.

Ok. Then Ike, Marth and Roy are all teenage swordsman with the same art style and abilities.

I guess we shouldn't have added Roy. And we should cut Ike too!

 

[Ganondalf]

Ike obviously isn't a clone and Sakurai thinks blue-haired swordsmen/women are cool /shrug. Can't remove him now.

Roy was in Melee with people who actually played him before Project M same with Mewtwo though yes, I wouldn't have voted for -another- fire emblem character unless they were substantially different than the Swordsmen (Such as a Magic Wielder).

My general thought process is: Add characters from series that are under represented first. Then add characters who are more unique than another representative from the same series second. Everything else is tertiary, thus Ninten is Tertiary in my mind being the third representative and being extremely similar to Ness and Lucas in artistic appearance and general abilities (another Psychic kid).

Thats all I'm going to say about Ninten. He will always be -1 to me as long as there are series that need representation and there are characters that are more appealing.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

...

Hey guys Isaac is cool let's talk about him again.

Remember my idea for him?

I wanna discuss Isaac again.

I'm starting to think he could add something called "move availability" to Project M. "What the hell are you talkin' bout, boy?" you might be asking. Well, in Golden Sun, there are these things called Djinni that, when used, unleash an ability of a sort. Isaac can have up to 7 of these, but we'll stick with Venus Djinni since that's basically earth magic, and only use 3. When a Djinni is used, it becomes a point toward summoning: after 1 Djinni is used, a weak summon is available to be called upon, and after 2 are used a stronger summon can come out, and it goes on. Essentially, a different move is available depending on how many Djinni-centered moves you got to connect with the opponent.

I came up with this as a good way to make Isaac unique beyond "attacks with an Earth theme." Summons like Ramses and Cybele could materialize using down-B after using some attacks that use Djinni. Like, say Flint is part of Isaac's forward smash (since the effect is basically "regular attack is stronger") while Ground and Bane are 2 of his specials. Summon could be his down special, so if he's performed all 3 Djinni-centered attacks successfully (preferably on-hit to make it fair), then his summon could be Cybele. But let's say you don't want Cybele and want Ramses, which only requires 2 Djinni attacks, or wanna save Bane for later--just use one of your Djinni-centered attacks again to "set" it again (as in it no longer counts toward "summon points"), it doesn't have to be on-hit either.

Unfortunately, I have no idea how this could work using the clone engine, but it was a fun exercise I just made for myself here and now so it entertained me at least I'd be more than fine to have Isaac in the game even without the Djinni gimmick because earth mage w00t

Also to add, his Final Smash would obviously be Judgement, which is the strongest Venus summon for him and looks badass.

I still think it was pretty cool.

We should stop arguing, is what I'm trying to say.

 

[Solbliminal]

Stop it. I think we have all said our peace regarding Ninten and none of our votes are changing it doesn't appear, so why beat the dead clonehorse?

Because this is a discussion thread. We are all allowed to discuss characters of our own free will. And what you find boring is not the same as what some of us find boring. Don't act as if we all agree with you or need to agree with you. Because quite frankly, I was enjoying the Ninten discussion. And this is with me being a non-Mother fan.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Was Ganondorf a Falcon clone pre-Melee? A character isn't a clone of another character unless they are a literal clone (IE: Dark Pit) or is already in the game. Ninten and Ness are two different people with several different abilities. Also, just because they do share some abilities doesn't mean they have to use them in the same way. For example while Ness redirects lightning into himself, Ninten could have a chargeable beam ala Thoron. While Lucas shoots PK Freeze, Ninten could use it defensively. I've never played Mother 1, so don't shoot me if I said something wrong Shin XD, these are just random examples I came up with on the spot.

 

[Ganondalf]

I'm still being incredibly passive aggressive and putting words in your mouth

Thats fine then. What do you wish to discuss? How to distinguish his Psy moves from the other 2? How about not using Ness or Lucas as the basis for his moves?

 

[Sour Supreme]

Its asinine to call a character that has yet to exist a clone.

 

[Ganondalf]

Its asinine to call a character that has yet to exist a clone.

You are right and I apologize but just looking at the character... he looks like Ness. He has a similar background to Ness. He uses Psy energy like Ness. I'd love to see him become something entirely unique and not just 'another Psy Kid' but I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Solbliminal]

You are right and I apologize but just looking at the character... he looks like Ness. He has a similar background to Ness. He uses Psy energy like Ness. I'd love to see him become something entirely unique and not just 'another Psy Kid' but I'm just not seeing it.

Yet you main the guy who isn't remotely relative to the guy he is cloned from.

 

[Shin F.]

You are right and I apologize but just looking at the character... he looks like Ness. He has a similar background to Ness. He uses Psy energy like Ness. I'd love to see him become something entirely unique and not just 'another Psy Kid' but I'm just not seeing it.

Oh, you'd rather him be unique? I actually wrote out an entire moveset that would make him unique by having him make better use of his tools rather than punches, kicks and PSI. It's in my signature.

http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...results-3-15-14.341479/page-291#post-16518709
If you want the abridged version, I sketched out the entire moveset as well.

Spoiler

 

[Sour Supreme]

not just 'another Psy Kid

;-;

Bruh, we've already been over time and time again how those are just sprites and concepts, and how Ninten can look way different than Ness.

 

[Ganondalf]

Yet you main the guy who isn't remotely relative to the guy he is cloned from.

There is only 1 slot for mains. I also play Lucas quite extensively and yes Ganon is a clone of Falcon. I'm not sure why you are attacking me considering I haven't been rude to you other than having a different opinion. If you are going to keep acting like this and not have a decent conversation, I'll just start ignoring you.

 

[Sour Supreme]

There is only 1 slot for mains. I also play Lucas quite extensively and yes Ganon is a clone of Falcon. I'm not sure why you are attacking me considering I haven't been rude to you other than having a different opinion. If you are going to keep acting like this and not have a decent conversation, I'll just start ignoring you.

You main Lucas, too! Do you think he plays like Ness?

 

[Ganondalf]

Oh, you'd rather him be unique? I actually wrote out an entire moveset that would make him unique by having him make better use of his tools rather than punches, kicks and PSI. It's in my signature.

http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...results-3-15-14.341479/page-291#post-16518709
If you want the abridged version, I sketched out the entire moveset as well.

First: I really like the moveset.
Second: I really like the drawings.

Over all it sounds really cool and I'd get behind it as long as he isn't even remotely similar to Ness/Lucas's similar movepool. I know there is no way to confirm it or not so I can change my vote but if Ninten is anything like that or just plain different: I'd change it to +1/2. I'll mule it over for sure. He will probably never get a +1 from me though, as those will be reserved for Isaac. I'll probably change Dark Samus to +1 too considering Ridley doesn't seem to be receiving a lot of hype T_T

;-;

Bruh, we've already been over time and time again how those are just sprites and concepts, and how Ninten can look way different than Ness.

Thats true but it's leagues easier just to rip Ness's spirte and recolor/voice it to Ninten. If Ninten's model is actually different, there is hope.

--

Again, the character is very easy to become lazy with: just make him look like Lucas/Ness and clone their movesets BAM! Ninten. That's what I'm worried about and it's not something I want to support.

If the character has a unique moveset (It doesn't have to be 100% original mind you) with his own model or just 'not Ness/Lucas' I'd be ok with it.

You are slowly winning my vote.

 

[Sour Supreme]

First: I really like the moveset.
Second: I really like the drawings.

Over all it sounds really cool and I'd get behind it as long as he isn't even remotely similar to Ness/Lucas's similar movepool. I know there is no way to confirm it or not so I can change my vote but if Ninten is anything like that or just plain different: I'd change it to +1/2. I'll mule it over for sure. He will probably never get a +1 from me though, as those will be reserved for Isaac. I'll probably change Dark Samus to +1 too considering Ridley doesn't seem to be receiving a lot of hype T_T





Thats true but it's leagues easier just to rip Ness's spirte and recolor/voice it to Ninten. If Ninten's model is actually different, there is hope.

--

Again, the character is very easy to become lazy with: just make him look like Lucas/Ness and clone their movesets BAM! Ninten. That's what I'm worried about and it's not something I want to support.

If the character has a unique moveset (It doesn't have to be 100% original mind you) with his own model or just 'not Ness/Lucas' I'd be ok with it.

You are slowly winning my vote.

We're talking about the PM Dev Team, here. They aren't going to throw you a lazily made character.

 

[Ganondalf]

I play Ness too and yes and no. They play pretty differently though they do share many characteristics when they fight. They still share a model, being similar in backstory and over all graphics.

Again, we are philosophizing as to "what is a clone" and we will argue forever