New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[EdgeTheLucas]

I found it. Turns out, it was our very own JCOnyx.


So - if you want a list of the easiest possible Clone candidates to the hardest (from around page 100), there it is, with a PMBR who agrees with it to show that it's at least somewhat accurate.

Ninten is once again even more relevant.

Fear us Mother fans.

 

[GunBuster]

Ninten is once again even more relevant.

Fear us Mother fans.

i s'pose, but i still think he'd do better as an alt for Ness...

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

i s'pose, but i still think he'd do better as an alt for Ness...

Breaks the rules.

 

[Shin F.]

i s'pose, but i still think he'd do better as an alt for Ness...

You could say that about more than one of the more Clone-like characters near the top of that list. Dark Samus in particular comes to mind, and Shadow's already been there. That's part of the point of Clone characters - that they're similar to the original.

If we're looking for easy Clones, I think Ninten is a particularly good choice since he has two unique characters he can easily steal animations from, not just one.

 

[Ganondalf]

Heavy Isaac?

Ew.

I dunno, a heavy isaac wouldn't be too bad. I know the community is susceptible to seeing flashy fast characters but heavy characters can be fun too. The point I was trying to make is that Isaac has so much potential, he can be made to fit any kind of character archetype. He has no real stereotype fighting stance or abilities beyond his Earth element.

Edit: As for being a link clone, only for the sword animations for his weapon (mace/axe/sword/scepter whatever Isaac would get). As for his Special moves, he would be similar to Dankey Kang or even Peach I think, as weird as that sounds. Agian, I don't know how easy it is to take animations form one character and animations from another and mix them

 

[GunBuster]

Breaks the rules.

in the way hector armour Ike is an alt, not just an outright character swap. i know the rules.

You could say that about more than one of the more Clone-like characters near the top of that list. Dark Samus in particular comes to mind, and Shadow's already been there. That's part of the point of Clone characters - that they're similar to the original.

If we're looking for easy Clones, I think Ninten is a particularly good choice since he has two unique characters he can easily steal animations from, not just one.

but for dark samus we'd need a dark samus themed varia suit, not just a complete replace. dark samus... behaves... differently from samus as well. Ness and Ninten just sit too similarly with me. I HAVE played mother and earthbound, i know there are differences, but Ness is, for all intents and purposes, a Ninten expy in his own game even. it's like asking for eliwood while roy's around. well, not really, but it's similar. i think.

 

[Shin F.]

but for dark samus we'd need a dark samus themed varia suit, not just a complete replace.

That's not necessarily true - PMBR were willing to bend their rules for the Big Boss alt, after all. He's not technically Snake, but they share DNA from being Snake being a clone of Big Boss. It was "close enough". The same could apply to Dark Samus.

dark samus... behaves... differently from samus as well.

Which in all honesty isn't going to make a big difference, considering only her wait animation, victory animations and taunts would really set her apart in that regard. (Things which would also likely separate Ninten). If you're saying she would be even more different than that from Samus, then we're entering territory of de-cloning, which isn't the goal with a character like this.

Ness and Ninten just sit too similarly with me. I HAVE played mother and earthbound, i know there are differences, but Ness is, for all intents and purposes, a Ninten expy in his own game even.

And again, the point with adding true Clone characters is to save work by using similar characters. If you're going for Clones, then being similar isn't a con.

 

[muleet]

anyone else here want to make choices based on limiting the amount of work the PMBR would have to put into making CE characters? roy has his shared animations, yet is still leagues apart from marth (i know he still took a fair amount of time to make tho). I just don't like the fact that some of the neat and somewhat wild movesets people are dreaming up are pretty much confirmed for being nightmarish to work on, and would take forever and a day to implement.

I don't really agree. Yes, that's better if we can have earlier new characters, but what is the point of having them if they have no personalities like Dark Samus? "She" is just another Samus, we have already 2 of her. I don't see the point of adding new characters if they have to be so similar, so unpersonal. The SSB characters are about their gameplay, (just like Fox and Falco are very different to play) but also about their look and popularity.

 

[Marthmario]

Hey guys! Decided to stop by after so long! What's the discussion about?


Also, why is the smash 4 Ridley thread closed?

 

[GunBuster]

That's not necessarily true - PMBR were willing to bend their rules for the Big Boss alt, after all. He's not technically Snake, but they share DNA from being Snake being a clone of Big Boss. It was "close enough". The same could apply to Dark Samus.
Which in all honesty isn't going to make a big difference, considering only her wait animation, victory animations and taunts would really set her apart in that regard. (Things which would also likely separate Ninten). If you're saying she would be even more different than that from Samus, then we're entering territory of de-cloning, which isn't the goal with a character like this.

And again, the point with adding true Clone characters is to save work by using similar characters. If you're going for Clones, then being similar isn't a con.

smash snake is more of a mesh of every snake that had existed up until that point tho. no prefixing solid or naked or anything even exists in the game. i had a friend beat my head in with this fact back at release of brawl because he had a masive obsession with the series and always insisted it was primarily solid snake with Naked's face.

 

[Exodo]

Isaac Sami Ray MK Skull Kid Pichu Ninten Dark Samus
HYPE!!

 

[Shin F.]

smash snake is more of a mesh of every snake that had existed up until that point tho. no prefixing solid or naked or anything even exists in the game. i had a friend beat my head in with this fact back at release of brawl because he had a masive obsession with the series and always insisted it was primarily solid snake with Naked's face.

Actually, you're wrong about the prefixing being nowhere in the game. His trophy is named Solid Snake, and given that it uses his in-game Brawl model, it's very safe to say that it is Solid who's merely had his design tweaked to closer resemble Naked. It's also worth pointing out that his description describes Solid Snake, not any of the others.

A former member of FOXHOUND with an IQ of 180 and mastery of six languages. He's an infiltration specialist whose ability to carry out missions under any conditions has made him a legend. He's saved the world three times from the threat of bipedal, nuclear-armed mechs called Metal Gear. Currently he's working with the anti-Metal Gear group known as Philanthropy.

Where with other characters that are amalgamations (like Link) the trophies describe very general things that fit each incarnation, Snake's is clearly describing Solid and no one else.

It's also worth noting that very few characters have their full names on the CSS. The screen doesn't say "Samus Aran", "Fox McCloud", or "Sonic the Hedgehog". Why would it say "Solid Snake"?

Assuming that's not good enough for you, though, I'll just cite the fact that Dark Link and Dark Meta Knight are their own characters, yet were considered close enough to be used as costumes.

Don't get me wrong about all this, by the way. I voted for Dark Samus. She's in my signature. I want her to be picked. But if the rule was bent for other characters, there's no reason it couldn't be for her.

 

[wiztick]

+1 takamaru

 

[GunBuster]

Actually, you're wrong about the prefixing being nowhere in the game. His trophy is named Solid Snake, and given that it uses his in-game Brawl model, it's very safe to say that it is Solid who's merely had his design tweaked to closer resemble Naked. It's also worth pointing out that his description describes Solid Snake, not any of the others.

It's also worth noting that very few characters have their full names on the CSS. The screen doesn't say "Samus Aran", "Fox McCloud", or "Sonic the Hedgehog". Why would it say "Solid Snake"?

Reaaally glad I have this image.

you're... absolutely right. I had completely forgotten about trophies in general, and compression for the CSS does seem like a logical thing. Crap, he even has the easter egg convos with his crew from MGS 1&2. disregard that. I'm completely ********. Apologies even.

Just to point out, I think it's implied that the Big Boss alt is Ssnake dressed as Big Boss. The PMfacebook page quotes "featuring Snake as Big Boss!"

Spoiler

Either way, I do believe I was just BTFO.

Spoiler

samus's alts should stick to her own suits though

Spoiler

Aaaand now I am unsure about dark samus as a character.

Spoiler

and now for something completely different, FE7 has been out on the Wii U VC in EU regions for 9 days. how did I not know this. MORE LYNDIS

 

[Morian]

Micaiah is more easy than Lyn? Darn it, I already use all my full votes.

Well here I go +1/2 Micaiah but I can't really see her as a Zelda clone, because she only has 1 article. And is possible to make a tome or staff models without a base like a turnip or a sword? Still, really like the idea of her character as the first "true" mage in Project M.

 

[NisforSmash]

Dixie would really require that much work? I mean i'm no animator but, given that her body is very similar to diddy's you could use him as a base and just replace the hat with hair or even use her trophy. From there it's just the individual animations. I'm also finding a little hard to believe that lip and goroh would require less work than dixie. At least with dixie you could use a few unused diddy animations. Lip has no previous animations whatsoever and Goroh while an assist trophy, has no direction to go in moveset wise. He's like a captain falcon and wario hybrid. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it seems some of the more obvious clones are getting shafted on that list. Bowser jr. i think would move up if he just got some animations from bowser and if they gave him some from smash4. Mach rider could also borrow some from captain falcon but i do think his place on that list is justified.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

+1/2 for Takamaru (I never knew about him. if possible I would prefer him over my Full vote for Lyn, since his series isn't represented in PM and we already have 3 Fire Emblem characters)
+1/2 for Ray MK II (or III)
+1/2 for prince Sable
+1/2 for King K. Rool (I believe I didn't vote for him yet)
+1/2 for Dark Samus (full vote if Ridley is not eligible)
+1/2 for Ninten (with scarf )

EDIT: +1/2 for Rock Hawk (YEAH!)

 

[cmart]

Dixie would really require that much work? I mean i'm no animator but, given that her body is very similar to diddy's you could use him as a base and just replace the hat with hair or even use her trophy. From there it's just the individual animations. I'm also finding a little hard to believe that lip and goroh would require less work than dixie. At least with dixie you could use a few unused diddy animations. Lip has no previous animations whatsoever and Goroh while an assist trophy, has no direction to go in moveset wise. He's like a captain falcon and wario hybrid. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it seems some of the more obvious clones are getting shafted on that list. Bowser jr. i think would move up if he just got some animations from bowser and if they gave him some from smash4. Mach rider could also borrow some from captain falcon but i do think his place on that list is justified.

You underestimate the difficulty of a huge prehensile ponytail. It would need to be hand animated on every animation - the characters in the higher tiers do have animation donors they could use to get rid of the multitude of inane animations required to become real. Even Lip and Goroh.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Up vote:
Original Ganondorf- either by having black shadow or this http://smashboards.com/threads/ganondorf-sword-mode-for-projectm.342640/ a Mod made by someone who is currently in the PMBR that gives Ganon an extra and unique move set when using Down taunt, it's extremely well done and something I use all the time.

Isaac- never played any of the Golden Sun games but he looks really cool an I would like to play a him. Also he is very original.

Ridley- This needs to happen Metroid needs another Character that isn't Samus. Beside using Charizard as base seems like a no brainer.

Lyn- I wouldn't mind another FE character so she's good imo. Besides a Katana swordsman would be sweet.

Half vote-

Tom Nook
Dixie Kong

Down Vote-

Pichu- enough pokemon!
Any Sonic character.

I actually only used 4 Up votes. So my 5th full up vote goes to Takamaru, I think he is very cool.
I would like to change Lyn's to a half vote but I believe there are no "back-siz" right? If I can, change Lyn to a half vote. Than I would like King K. Rool to get a full up vote as well.

 

[NisforSmash]

You underestimate the difficulty of a huge prehensile ponytail. It would need to be hand animated on every animation - the characters in the higher tiers do have animation donors they could use to get rid of the multitude of inane animations required to become real. Even Lip and Goroh.

Ahh well thanks for the answer. Just out of curiosity though how much value do you think dixie has compared to the rest of the potential newcomers? For me i know i find she would complete the kong trio and would add some needed representation to the dk series.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Ahh well thanks for the answer. Just out of curiosity though how much value do you think dixie has compared to the rest of the potential newcomers? For me i know i find she would complete the kong trio and would add some needed representation to the dk series.

I think she has a good chance and she would complete the "trio" but i would prefer K. Rool just so we have more villains and I think his play style would be more unique. But I would take either of them really, the DK series deserves it.

 

[cmart]

My opinion on Dixie is [REDACTED]

: P

 

[NisforSmash]

DID SOMEONE GET A SCREENCAP?!?! WE MIGHT HAVE A BREAKTHROUGH HERE.

I think she has a good chance and she would complete the "trio" but i would prefer K. Rool just so we have more villains and I think his play style would be more unique. But I would take either of them really, the DK series deserves it.

I'm not sure i agree. While k rool would be another villian, he seems idk obscure or something to me. Dixie's had more screen time so i think she'd deserve the spot moreso. Plus if k rool made it in that would be a strange trio.... donkey kong, diddy kong and....king k rool? Even donkey kong jr. fits better with the other two. I mean i like k rool as a doinkey kong character but he just doesn't have as much an impact as dixie did. Plus i feel dixie's moveset would be more....likeable.

 

[Sour Supreme]

My opinion on Dixie is [REDACTED]

: P

DID SOMEONE GET A SCREENCAP?!?! WE MIGHT HAVE A BREAKTHROUGH HERE.



I'm not sure i agree. While k rool would be another villian, he seems idk obscure or something to me. Dixie's had more screen time so i think she'd deserve the spot moreso. Plus if k rool made it in that would be a strange trio.... donkey kong, diddy kong and....king k rool? Even donkey kong jr. fits better with the other two. I mean i like k rool as a doinkey kong character but he just doesn't have as much an impact as dixie did. Plus i feel dixie's moveset would be more....likeable.

Don't worry, I got a screen cap.

He said that his opinion of Dixie Kong is [DELETED BY WARCHAMP] So pretty much, by version 3.5 we should see a lot of [DELETED BY HYLIAN].

 

[Anti Guy]

Micaiah is more easy than Lyn? Darn it, I already use all my full votes.

Well here I go +1/2 Micaiah but I can't really see her as a Zelda clone, because she only has 1 article. And is possible to make a tome or staff models without a base like a turnip or a sword? Still, really like the idea of her character as the first "true" mage in Project M.

Micaiah just needs to use Zelda's animations, except where one of her hands would always be holding a tome by her.

I'm not sure how much more work it'd take, but it's not like she actually has to do stuff with the tome.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Still hoping for Lyn, PMBR/PMDT pls.

 

[GunBuster]

Micaiah just needs to use Zelda's animations, except where one of her hands would always be holding a tome by her.

While I recognise I pointed out the fact that we should consider characters that would cut back on the workload more and we all know how much I'd like [another fire emblem character], I think we should probably consider that, since Roy is already Very Marth-based, a second clone engine FE rep would probably be best cloned to the level Mewtwo or Wolf are. not to say they couldn't do that with Micaiah.

Spoiler

Though I have not gotten to Radiant Dawn myself, I hear she's not a terribly well liked Lord. From what I've heard.

 

[GunBuster]

oh what the hell
apologies for the double post
how did i do this

 

[Anti Guy]

While I recognise I pointed out the fact that we should consider characters that would cut back on the workload more and we all know how much I'd like [another fire emblem character], I think we should probably consider that, since Roy is already Very Marth-based, a second clone engine FE rep would probably be best cloned to the level Mewtwo or Wolf are. not to say they couldn't do that with Micaiah.

Spoiler

Though I have not gotten to Radiant Dawn myself, I hear she's not a terribly well liked Lord. From what I've heard.

Mewtwo's not a clone... You can't count him as a "level" to be achieved. The fact that he already has an established moveset and animations also makes him unique in comparison to building a new character from scratch.

 

[GunBuster]

Mewtwo's not a clone... You can't count him as a "level" to be achieved. The fact that he already has an established moveset and animations also makes him unique in comparison to building a new character from scratch.

let me clarify.

I meant that in the way that in the clone engine, mewtwo is based off of lucario but is completely revamped. So if we are to see any other FE character in the unused slots they should aim for that level of diversity, or at least at the level that Fox and Wolf differ, since Wolf is barely a semi-clone at this point. and further, since Roy is already a semi of Marth i can't imagine using a CE slot for another semi clone FE character going down too well.

 

[Exodo]

Dixie Kong confirmed.

 

[Anti Guy]

let me clarify.

I meant that in the way that in the clone engine, mewtwo is based off of lucario but is completely revamped. So if we are to see any other FE character in the unused slots they should aim for that level of diversity, or at least at the level that Fox and Wolf differ, since Wolf is barely a semi-clone at this point. and further, since Roy is already a semi of Marth i can't imagine using a CE slot for another semi clone FE character going down too well.

Mewtwo being based off Lucario but heavily revamped basically means completele overhaul. The only thing they shared in common was being upright Pokemon with a charge up B. This kind of revamp is what we've been referring to as completely original characters -- characters that have their own complete movesets independent of their base. For example, that would include Isaac, Ray or any of the retro characters (Sukapon, Takamaru, Sable Prince). Any of these characters would obviously try to a pick a character closest to them (For example, Isaac with Link) in order to make the work easiest... much like Lucario was chosen for Link.

Roy, on the other hands, represents the complete opposite end of the spectrum. He is a clone in the classical sense, with his animations and moveset based off the base.

So when you're talking about these two "levels" of cloning, you're really talking about two completely different ends of the spectrum with Mewtwo and Roy. And these two, again, are much easier than any other clone can possibly be (with the exception of Pichu) because of having established movesets and animations from Melee. Even creating a clone character like Micaiah would take a lot of work because you're creating something new. You also grouped Mewtwo together with Wolf. Wolf, like Luigi, are in between. They're not pure clones, but they're also differentiated enough. Yet they're not a completely different character like Mewtwo is.

So if you want a new FE character, they're going to be cloned to the level of either Roy, Wolf, or Mewtwo, with each of those three representing increasing levels of separation and difficulty. Making an FE character on the Mewtwo scale (i.e. separate, independent character) is probably a little overkill. Yet that's what people want for Lyn.

 

[GunBuster]

Mewtwo being based off Lucario but heavily revamped basically means completele overhaul.

I recognised this. in my previous post even.

The only thing they shared in common was being upright Pokemon with a charge up B. This kind of revamp is what we've been referring to as completely original characters -- characters that have their own complete movesets independent of their base. For example, that would include Isaac, Ray or any of the retro characters (Sukapon, Takamaru, Sable Prince). Any of these characters would obviously try to a pick a character closest to them (For example, Isaac with Link) in order to make the work easiest... much like Lucario was chosen for mewtwo.

And all I said that another FE character, if implemented, should be built like this. because-

Roy, on the other hands, represents the complete opposite end of the spectrum. He is a clone in the classical sense, with his animations and moveset based off the base.

Exactly, potentially two clones built like this for the same series in a limited environment for adding characters is outright wasteful.

So when you're talking about these two "levels" of cloning, you're really talking about two completely different ends of the spectrum with Mewtwo and Roy. And these two, again, are much easier than any other clone can possibly be (with the exception of Pichu) because of having established movesets and animations from Melee. Even creating a clone character like Micaiah would take a lot of work because you're creating something new.

You also grouped Mewtwo together with Wolf.

no i did not, i acknowledged he's not as distant as mewtwo to lucario but still rather diverse from fox.

or at least at the level that Fox and Wolf differ

fox-wolf surely can be included in the measure as to how different a character is from the one they are based on. I'm sure he sits somewhere between mewtwo and roy in relation to that.

I don't even really know what we're debating, just my terminology? because looking at our posts, I'm kind of indirectly agreeing with everything you've said.

 

[Hagrid]

I think the number or clones in a single series should be kept to a minimum. Like having Ninten as a third Ness, or Lyn as a third Marth would be annoying. Dark Samus is a good choice because the Metroid series doesn't already have a cloned character.

 

[Shin F.]

I think the number or clones in a single series should be kept to a minimum. Like having Ninten as a third Ness, or Lyn as a third Marth would be annoying. Dark Samus is a good choice because the Metroid series doesn't already have a cloned character.

I agree in principal about too many clones of the same moveset being a bad thing, but just to clarify, Lucas is not a Clone. He and Ness only have like 5-6 moves in common. The rest of his moveset is entirely original. It's the same situation as Wolf.

Also, I very much doubt Lyn would be just a third Marth.

 

[Solbliminal]

I agree in principal about too many clones of the same moveset being a bad thing, but just to clarify, Lucas is not a Clone. He and Ness only have like 5-6 moves in common. The rest of his moveset is entirely original. It's the same situation as Wolf.

Also, I very much doubt Lyn would be just a third Marth.

To add to what Shin said, I also doubt Ninten would be an outright Ness clone. If anything he would be a hybrid clone of Ness and Lucas, or his own thing.

 

[Super_Primid]

To add to what Shin said, I also doubt Ninten would be an outright Ness clone. If anything he would be a hybrid clone of Ness and Lucas, or his own thing.

A. K. A. A wolf type clone.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I have a suggestion, and I think Its a decent one.

Victini over Pikachu. Essentially a clone, really all it needs is to replace the electric effects with fire effects, and maybe change his Neutral B, Side B, Down B, up tilt, up air and up smash to something different.

I suggest him over Pikachu because for one thing, in the Pokemon games, Victini can already learn a lot of the moves that Pikachu learns (lol Victini learns both Thunder/Thunderbolt, has a Psychic equivalent of Skull Bash, learns Quick Attack, all that good stuff). Secondly the moves that need to be changed can be different enough to make a new character with a different style. His up smash could be a pillar of flame for example, and his up air could be something like he moves his finger in the same angle that Pikachu moved his tail, but instead of a gimp tool, its a juggling move and depending on where you hit with it, you could get vertical or horizontal KB. And his fair could be a single strong hit with his ears a blazin'.

 

[Shin F.]

I have a suggestion, and I think Its a decent one.

Victini over Pikachu. Essentially a clone, really all it needs is to replace the electric effects with fire effects, and maybe change his Neutral B, Side B, Down B, up tilt, up air and up smash to something different.

I suggest him over Pikachu because for one thing, in the Pokemon games, Victini can already learn a lot of the moves that Pikachu learns (lol Victini learns both Thunder/Thunderbolt, has a Psychic equivalent of Skull Bash, learns Quick Attack, all that good stuff). Secondly the moves that need to be changed can be different enough to make a new character with a different style. His up smash could be a pillar of flame for example, and his up air could be something like he moves his finger in the same angle that Pikachu moved his tail, but instead of a gimp tool, its a juggling move and depending on where you hit with it, you could get vertical or horizontal KB. And his fair could be a single strong hit with his ears a blazin'.

Victini wasn't in Brawl.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Victini wasn't in Brawl.

Oh right. Now I feel dumb for something that I completely overlooked.