New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Ondo]

Well as a Roy fan, I wasn't too happy with the fact Sakurai tried to pass on Roy's playstyle to Lucina in Smash 4. I could honestly say that it is a bad idea to "replace" any established character. Once you've made a character playable, you've allowed for people to create a bond with said character. Yeah, you can revive their playstyle, but it is just like the situation with a majority of Melee / Project M Ganondorf fans. There are people who like the character the way they are. You can change minor things and make the playstyle visually different. But the moment you change the face of the character, you alienate all the people who liked that character the way they are.

I don't think Sakurai is trying to pass on Roy's playstyle to Lucina. My guess is that Sakurai no longer thinks of Roy as a Marth clone, due to planning out a unique moveset for him at the start of Brawl's development.

(I still think he's got a non-zero chance of showing up in Smash 4, even though he'd be a fifth Fire Emblem character.)

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

I don't think Sakurai is trying to pass on Roy's playstyle to Lucina. My guess is that Sakurai no longer thinks of Roy as a Marth clone, due to planning out a unique moveset for him at the start of Brawl's development.

(I still think he's got a non-zero chance of showing up in Smash 4, even though he'd be a fifth Fire Emblem character.)

Yeah. Lucina may be a Marth clone, but doesn't seem that she took Roy's style. The only difference we really know of is with the sword, though there will probably be some other minor changes. As where Roy was a heavier, harder hitting version of Marth with some flames.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Lucina isn't close to Roy from what we've seen so far. She looks to be at about the same pace as Marth, as well as having similar aerials. Additionally, they said her sword's power is balanced throughout the blade, rather than having a sweetspot center like Roy's Sword Of Seals. Considering that was one of the key things that set him apart from Marth, I don't see Lucina like Roy at all. But rather an entirely new clone.

 

[Solbliminal]

I don't think Sakurai is trying to pass on Roy's playstyle to Lucina. My guess is that Sakurai no longer thinks of Roy as a Marth clone, due to planning out a unique moveset for him at the start of Brawl's development.

(I still think he's got a non-zero chance of showing up in Smash 4, even though he'd be a fifth Fire Emblem character.)

Yeah. Lucina may be a Marth clone, but doesn't seem that she took Roy's style. The only difference we really know of is with the sword, though there will probably be some other minor changes. As where Roy was a heavier, harder hitting version of Marth with some flames.

Lucina isn't close to Roy from what we've seen so far. She looks to be at about the same pace as Marth, as well as having similar aerials. Additionally, they said her sword's power is balanced throughout the blade, rather than having a sweetspot center like Roy's Sword Of Seals. Considering that was one of the key things that set him apart from Marth, I don't see Lucina like Roy at all. But rather an entirely new clone.

Okay. So then it would have been fine to ditch Falco in favor of Wolf then?

You all missed my point completely. My point is that replacing a character is a bad idea altogether and should not be encouraged. The Plusle and Minun idea replaces Pichu and any chance of growth the character has on its own. You also remove the face the player is familiar with, thus eliminating half of the reason people liked the character. This case is no different with Lucina to Roy for myself. Which brings me to my second point with Blackendorf.

Yeah, Ganondorf gets a new moveset. But congratulations! You've just alienated a majority of people who mained him for how he currently was. Now that majority of people who like his playstyle are going to feel awkward playing Black Shadow. That was so fair~ Let us rejoice that Zelda fans who are still likely not play Ganondorf no matter how he changes finally got their wish of proper representation. Sorry Ganondorf mains. Proper representation was more important pleasing you, the current supporters.

 

[alex6309]

Okay. So then it would have been fine to ditch Falco in favor of Wolf then?

You all missed my point completely. My point is that replacing a character is a bad idea altogether and should not be encouraged. The Plusle and Minun idea replaces Pichu and any chance of growth the character has on its own. You also remove the face the player is familiar with, thus eliminating half of the reason people liked the character. This case is no different with Lucina to Roy for myself. Which brings me to my second point with Blackendorf.

Yeah, Ganondorf gets a new moveset. But congratulations! You've just alienated a majority of people who mained him for how he currently was. Now that majority of people who like his playstyle are going to feel awkward playing Black Shadow. That was so fair~ Let us rejoice that Zelda fans who are still likely not play Ganondorf no matter how he changes finally got their wish of proper representation. Sorry Ganondorf mains. Proper representation was more important pleasing you, the current supporters.

Do you have proof that a majority of people will feel awkward and won't adjust to playing as Black Shadow with old Ganondorf's moveset?
And that people wouldn't play as Ganon with a new moveset?

 

[Sour Supreme]

I didn't miss your point, Sol. I just thought that Roy and Lucina was a bad example considering Roy was absent from Brawl.

But I agree with the main argument.

 

[Solbliminal]

I didn't miss your point, Sol. I just thought that Roy and Lucina was a bad example considering Roy was absent from Brawl.

But I agree with the main argument.

Whatever the case, I don't agree with you over the Roy and Lucina thing. I don't find any justification in her inclusion as a clone. It pretty much slays Roy's chances of coming back reformed and kills any potential Lucina had on her own. In my book, that is pretty much the prime example of why you shouldn't replace a character. You set a standard for one character and work with it until it is right. Not replace it and hope it gets better. That is just my opinion and it won't change.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Whatever the case, I don't agree with you over the Roy and Lucina thing. I don't find any justification in her inclusion as a clone. It pretty much slays Roy's chances of coming back reformed and kills any potential Lucina had on her own. In my book, that is pretty much the prime example of why you shouldn't replace a character. You set a standard for one character and work with it until it is right. Not replace it and hope it gets better. That is just my opinion and it won't change.

I agree with that, as well. I never said Lucina's inclusion as a clone was just. I just don't think she's the same as Roy. Roy, would've been better in the sense that he is a lesser clone. It makes you wonder about other characters.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

We don't know enough of the character to render a verdict so comparing Lucina to Marth or even Roy is pointless unless you can say that you've played the character. Wait until more gameplay is shown because from the trailer, there is not enough information to distinguish Lucina as a character.

 

[Cool Blue]

We don't know enough of the character to render a verdict so comparing Lucina to Marth or even Roy is pointless unless you can say that you've played the character. Wait until more gameplay is shown because from the trailer, there is not enough information to distinguish Lucina as a character.

Pretty much all of the information that we have points to Lucina being very similar to Marth. All of the moves that she used in her trailer are similar to Marth's. Heck, even Sakurai himself said that their physical abilities are identical.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure we can safely say that Lucina is going to be a close clone of Marth.

 

[UltimateWario]

Lucina looks like more of a clone than any of the Melee Clones ever were.

It seems we've become so unique that we've rolled over like an odometer. :U

 

[arcticfox8]

Do you have proof that a majority of people will feel awkward and won't adjust to playing as Black Shadow with old Ganondorf's moveset?
And that people wouldn't play as Ganon with a new moveset?

That's not the point. When a new version of Street Fighter 4 comes out, they don't change Ken's moveset and slap a new character noone wants in so they don't lose the moveset. You adjust what's there because you don't want to alienate character mains.
At the end of the day it's easier to just add characters that won't be controversial.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

Pretty much all of the information that we have points to Lucina being very similar to Marth. All of the moves that she used in her trailer are similar to Marth's. Heck, even Sakurai himself said that their physical abilities are identical.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure we can safely say that Lucina is going to be a close clone of Marth.

Move-wise she looks similar to Marth but what we don't know is property-wise. It's like Falco and Fox in Melee, identical in movesets but majority of their moves contained different properties. Sure Sakurai said himself that Lucina is a clone of Marth but to compare Lucina to Roy is assuming a little too much. I don't mind speculating, but the previous posts were statements with over assumption involved which is why I said more information is required before making such statements.

 

[UltimateWario]

Move-wise she looks similar to Marth but what we don't know is property-wise. It's like Falco and Fox in Melee, identical in movesets but majority of their moves contained different properties. Sure Sakurai said himself that Lucina is a clone of Marth but to compare Lucina to Roy is assuming a little too much. I don't mind speculating, but the previous posts were statements with over assumption involved which is why I said more information is required before making such statements.

I think the fact that she started as a costume for Marth, but became her own character when they removed her tipper and fixed her hitboxes for her body-type says that she's going to be almost exactly Marth, but shorter and with no tipper.

It's possible she'll be different, but we don't have a lot of evidence to support that.

 

[Shin F.]

That's not the point. When a new version of Street Fighter 4 comes out, they don't change Ken's moveset and slap a new character noone wants in so they don't lose the moveset. You adjust what's there because you don't want to alienate character mains.
At the end of the day it's easier to just add characters that won't be controversial.

Ken isn't a character from another series with a different skill set than the one portrayed, so that's a really bad example.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

That's not the point. When a new version of Street Fighter 4 comes out, they don't change Ken's moveset and slap a new character noone wants in so they don't lose the moveset. You adjust what's there because you don't want to alienate character mains.
At the end of the day it's easier to just add characters that won't be controversial.

The Street Fighter example wasn't the best of examples. Street Fighter is a fighting game based on a story, there is no reason to change a character's moveset unless the creator designed the story to do so. Also, Street Fighter is the game of origin for the characters so you can only see their potential in that game alone and then their potential can/should only be changed using that game. With Ganondorf it's different. Ganon's potential lies in the Legend of Zelda franchise; therefore you should expect in a game like Smash that he would have assets from his game of origin. Legend of Zelda fans feel one of the main antagonists to the series is poorly represented then I have to believe them.

I do agree with your last statement, but in the end one group is going to be left unsatisfied...the Blackendorf group, who's purpose is to bring about the best of both worlds for everyone by keeping the character others enjoyed in moveset (but changing the character visually, which is no different than switching textures in brawl vault), but also having the antagonist they love done justice. It's really sad.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Honestly, why the hell are people still complaining about Lucina?

If you're so confident that she's replaced Roy, who cares? No matter what, Roy is still in THIS GAME--the one that's going to most likely end up much more competitively balanced anyway. We know for sure that, in Project M, Roy is a GREAT character--we don't know if Lucina will be, so that's a minus for her.

Similarly, while the whole Ganondorf / Black Shadow most likely won't happen in Project M for completely understandable reasons, if it happens in Smash 4 and you don't like it, which game can you turn to? THIS GAME.

I'm just so amused by the whole ordeal because no one has actually talked about Project M OR the clone engine in this thread all day. So, once again, LET'S DROP THE SMASH 4 TALK.

God.

 

[UltimateWario]

I think my favorite thing about Project M is that it allows me to win/win.

If Ridley's in Smash 4, yaaaaaaay!

If he's not in Smash 4, he'll probably be in P:M and I save $60! Yaaaaaaaay!

That moment when I feel bad for almost wanting Ridley to be disconfirmed.

That said, I really think Ridley and Isaac are the only two characters who qualify for Smash 4 that should be even considered for P:M. The rest of the Clone Roster should be for characters that will otherwise NEVER get into Smash, and are fan favorites with great potential that Sakurai simply doesn't see.

 

[alex6309]

That's not the point. When a new version of Street Fighter 4 comes out, they don't change Ken's moveset and slap a new character noone wants in so they don't lose the moveset. You adjust what's there because you don't want to alienate character mains.
At the end of the day it's easier to just add characters that won't be controversial.

That's a really terrible example. Ken is known for being a fighter who uses his fists. Ganon isn't. Ganon is known for swords and magic. His representation in the smash series is completely missing the point of his character and some people want that to change.

Can we get a count of how many points does Black Shadow/Ganon have and how many -1s do they have?

 

[taljen]

So I just list the 5 I'd want here? If so, then, I'd vote for Paper Mario, Isaac, Dixie Kong, Lyn, and Ridley. There were none I'd vote against.

Is there anywhere that I can view the current tally?

 

[RomeDogg]

I vote Young Link because I dislike the Project M Link incarnation and
I absolutely hate Toon Link. Though if it isn't an option Pichu all the way.

 

[alex6309]

I vote Young Link because I dislike the Project M Link incarnation and
I absolutely hate Toon Link. Though if it isn't an option Pichu all the way.

If you hate Toon Link but are okay with his moveset, maybe you can download a young link over toon link skin.

 

[arcticfox8]

Ken isn't a character from another series with a different skill set than the one portrayed, so that's a really bad example.

When Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 came out, they didn't change Captain America's moveset from vanilla because his moveset didn't fully represent all Captain America can do, they adjusted what was there as to not alienate Cap mains.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

The reason I don't like the Black Shadow/Ganon idea is that it caters more to Zelda fans rather than actual
Smashers. People who main Ganon identify with him. Forcing them to switch to Black Shadow is like taking their dog away and giving them another of the same breed. It's just not the same. If they completely revamped one of my mains and gave me another character to use in their place, I'd be pretty pissed.

Another reason is the people who typically vote on the idea. I've been here since page one. I've been able to see who up-voted and who down-voted what. Most people I've seen vote on Black Shadow end up in one of three ways. Either they just vanish from the boards entirely, go back to Smash 4 boards, or only visit this thread instead of anything else the PM boards have to offer. This tells me that they aren't really gonna be playing PM. That they're mainly using this game to hold their hype until Smash 4 comes. That they're mainly just here to fantasize about different possibilities and scenarios that these 5 slots can take. Once the clone characters are out, they'll try them for one or two weeks and hardly ever touch the game again. Meanwhile, a lot of people who are gonna be playing after Smash 4's release are gonna be like "Why? Black Shadow is a toolbox".

The third reason is that this is just such an unlikely idea. We're more likely to see Smash 4, a game already busting out the last minute clones, to utilize canon Ganon.

 

[Shin F.]

The reason I don't like the Black Shadow/Ganon idea is that it caters more to Zelda fans rather than actual
Smashers.

The problem I always have with this kind of logic is that it acts as though Zelda fans are somehow less important than Smash fans. "It's just catering to this crowd instead of that one."

Another reason is the people who typically vote on the idea. I've been here since page one. I've been able to see who up-voted and who down-voted what. Most people I've seen vote on Black Shadow end up in one of three ways. Either they just vanish from the boards entirely, go back to Smash 4 boards, or only visit this thread instead of anything else the PM boards have to offer. This tells me that they aren't really gonna be playing PM. That they're mainly using this game to hold their hype until Smash 4 comes. That they're mainly just here to fantasize about different possibilities and scenarios that these 5 slots can take. Once the clone characters are out, they'll try them for one or two weeks and hardly ever touch the game again. Meanwhile, a lot of people who are gonna be playing after Smash 4's release are gonna be like "Why? Black Shadow is a toolbox".

Lol, you just described 99% of all the voters, not just Black Shadow voters.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

The problem I always have with this kind of logic is that it acts as though Zelda fans are somehow less important than Smash fans.

Well in a Smash game, I'd say Zelda fans are less important.
Since it's a Smash game.

Lol, you just described 99% of all the voters, not just Black Shadow voters.

I am the 1%!

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

The reason I don't like the Black Shadow/Ganon idea is that it caters more to Zelda fans rather than actual
Smashers. People who main Ganon identify with him. Forcing them to switch to Black Shadow is like taking their dog away and giving them another of the same breed. It's just not the same. If they completely revamped one of my mains and gave me another character to use in their place, I'd be pretty pissed.

Another reason is the people who typically vote on the idea. I've been here since page one. I've been able to see who up-voted and who down-voted what. Most people I've seen vote on Black Shadow end up in one of three ways. Either they just vanish from the boards entirely, go back to Smash 4 boards, or only visit this thread instead of anything else the PM boards have to offer. This tells me that they aren't really gonna be playing PM. That they're mainly using this game to hold their hype until Smash 4 comes. That they're mainly just here to fantasize about different possibilities and scenarios that these 5 slots can take. Once the clone characters are out, they'll try them for one or two weeks and hardly ever touch the game again. Meanwhile, a lot of people who are gonna be playing after Smash 4's release are gonna be like "Why? Black Shadow is a toolbox".

The third reason is that this is just such an unlikely idea. We're more likely to see Smash 4, a game already busting out the last minute clones, to utilize canon Ganon.

I like only your third reason, but that's more than good enough for me.

 

[Shin F.]

Well in a Smash game, I'd say Zelda fans are less important.
Since it's a Smash game.

Except that they're both Smash and Zelda fans, or else they wouldn't care at all. Go on some Zelda forums where the people don't play Smash. None of them care there. It's only the people who are fans of both series. So really, it's closer to:

Smash fans who are coming from the Zelda series are less important than Smash fans who are coming from other series, but like to play Zelda characters.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Except that they're both Smash and Zelda fans, or else they wouldn't care at all. Go on some Zelda forums where the people don't play Smash. None of them care there. It's only the people who are fans of both series.

So that makes for an even smaller minority that idea is geared towards :/

 

[Shin F.]

So that makes for an even smaller minority that idea is geared towards :/

I don't really care about the suggestion any more. I don't care if there are more Zelda fans or more Ganon players who specifically want him with his moveset and no one else. For all we know, Zelda Smash Fans outnumber Ganondorf mains who are opposed to this change. (Certainly, it's got far more up-votes than down-votes. And I remember that there have been Ganon mains in this thread who've said they'd be okay with it).

But the attitude that "it caters more to Zelda fans rather than actual Smashers" is a terrible one. As if Zelda fans aren't real Smashers, and so what they want shouldn't have as much weight as actual Smashers. I don't even support the idea myself any more (I'd prefer a stance change like what Samus got), but this is a ****ty reason to shoot it down.

 

[Cool Blue]

So that makes for an even smaller minority that idea is geared towards :/

Using that logic, then most of the characters discussed in this thread shouldn't even be considered.

Isaac would only be appealing to Golden Sun fans.
Ridley would only be appealing to Metroid fans.
Ray would only be appealing to Custom Robo fans.
Ninten would only be appealing to Mother fans.

 

[arcticfox8]

Using that logic, then most of the characters discussed in this thread shouldn't even be considered.

Isaac would only be appealing to Golden Sun fans.
Ridley would only be appealing to Metroid fans.
Ray would only be appealing to Custom Robo fans.
Ninten would only be appealing to Mother fans.

Except they don't change a preexisting character just bcuz
It pleases a fanbase and doesn't screw over anyone in the process
I think Ganon mains mean more than Zelda fans by a large difference
One actually cares about the character, one cares about this preconceived entitlement to some form of canon in a game that literally gives no ****s about canon

 

[Solbliminal]

Look guys. This wasn't meant to turn into some Smash 4, Ganondorf, salty Nintendo fanboy argument. The point is that replacing a character should not take place period. That is the ONLY point I was trying to make, rather my example was bad or not. Lets not take this to a level of arguing we've seen in the past. It is completely pointless and accomplishes nothing.

 

[Shin F.]

One actually cares about the character, one cares about this preconceived entitlement to some form of canon in a game that literally gives no ****s about canon

So because they loved this character as he was portrayed and want him to reflect that, they're entitled? The same thing could be said of Ganon mains, the only difference is which portrayal they prefer. There's no entitlement about it. Simply two different views of a character with each side wanting their own version.

Belittling the opposite side by saying they don't matter as much is pointless and only serves to make you look like an entitled ass yourself.

Edit:

Look guys. This wasn't meant to turn into some Smash 4, Ganondorf, salty Nintendo fanboy argument. The point is that replacing a character should not take place period. That is the ONLY point I was trying to make, rather my example was bad or not. Lets not take this to a level of arguing we've seen in the past. It is completely pointless and accomplishes nothing.

I agree. Arguing over this does no good.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

But the attitude that "it caters more to Zelda fans rather than actual Smashers" is a terrible one. As if Zelda fans aren't real Smashers, and so what they want shouldn't have as much weight as actual Smashers.

If they are real smashers, then that's great.
By saying "Zelda Fans", I was mainly referring to the guys who just want the idea bcuz canon.
Not because of how gameplay will be affected or how it'll affect others. Just because it makes Ganondorf "look better".
But then when the PMBR goes through with it, they play it for 2 weeks, and then play Smash 4 with non-canon ganon and ***** more.
And like I pointed out (and you confirmed), most people in this thread fit that bill.

But really, how many of those "supporters" are gonna play this game after Smash 4 comes out?
How many are gonna play this game for more than a month after?
More than a year?

The answer? 1-2%
With a decision like this, I don't think those people should have a say.
Because they don't even play the game.

Using that logic, then most of the characters discussed in this thread shouldn't even be considered.

Isaac would only be appealing to Golden Sun fans.
Ridley would only be appealing to Metroid fans.
Ray would only be appealing to Custom Robo fans.
Ninten would only be appealing to Mother fans.

I haven't played any of those series, and all of those guys appeal to me.
The difference is that those are entirely productive additions.
I don't have to play those characters if I don't want to.

But with Black Shadow, it's a split decision for Ganon mains.
Do they play Ganondorf, because he looks like Ganondorf (but isn't the Ganondorf they love), or do they play Black Shadow, because he plays like Ganondorf (but it's not Ganondorf).
People who like both qualities are screwed.

 

[Shin F.]

But then when the PMBR goes through with it, they play it for 2 weeks, and then play Smash 4 with non-canon ganon and ***** more.
And like I pointed out (and you confirmed), most people in this thread fit that bill.

But really, how many of those "supporters" are gonna play this game after Smash 4 comes out?
How many are gonna play this game for more than a month after?
More than a year?

The answer? 1-2%
With a decision like this, I don't think those people should have a say.
Because they don't even play the game.

The problem is, this applies to not just Black Shadow voters, but almost every voter.

We've had 355 voters in this thread. How many of them are still around? How many people are there that voted for Isaac - and then left? And that was it?

Hey, what would you guys think about giving Ganon the sword / magic Stance Change, and then making Black Shadow as a Luigified Ganon clone without the stance change?

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

The problem is, this applies to not just Black Shadow voters, but almost every voter.

We've had 355 voters in this thread. How many of them are still around? How many people are there that voted for Isaac - and then left? And that was it?

But with every other character, it's only a productive addition.
You have the option to not play those characters.
Black Shadow/Ganondorf obviously isn't just a productive addition.
That's why I said "with this kind of decision".

Hey, what would you guys think about giving Ganon the sword / magic Stance Change, and then making Black Shadow as a Luigified Ganon clone without the stance change?

I've been arguing for an official stance change since the 3.0 trailer.
No one gets pooped on with that.
Everyone is happy.

 

[Shin F.]

I've been arguing for an official stance change since the 3.0 trailer.
No one gets pooped on with that.
Everyone is happy.

Except Black Shadow fans

 

[arcticfox8]

So because they loved this character as he was portrayed and want him to reflect that, they're entitled? The same thing could be said of Ganon mains, the only difference is which portrayal they prefer. There's no entitlement about it. Simply two different views of a character with each side wanting their own version.

I'm not saying character in the sense of http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Ganondorf
I mean character as in the character you select on the css
They care about the character as he is here, in the game we're talking about and playing.
That's why they matter more. Blackendorf doesn't do any favors for those who play the game.
But then, if they get their way, they probably won't even play as him. And they just shafted a large part of the playerbase for the sake of canon in Smash Bros

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Except Black Shadow fans

"What is this bull****? This isn't an accurate depiction of Black Shadow."
"Let's make a new Black Shadow and give the old moveset to Toon Ganondorf."