New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Cool Blue]

This is where i disagree. Dark Samus deserves to be an Assist Trophy or a Boss on a stage. He/She does not however deserve playable character representation. If Ridley were already in the game then i might debate you on the reasons why dark samus should or shouldn't be in but because Ridley is just debatable, Dark Samus' chances are that much lower.

I know that Ridley's chances of getting in are higher than Dark Samus's, but Dark Samus is always an alternative if Ridley can't be put in for whatever reason. If they make her an Assist Trophy, then we would have to default to Sylux, which wouldn't be bad, but people would much prefer Dark Samus.

 

[NisforSmash]

So.. It's decided.

Mother Brain will be PM's new Metroid rep.

Finally someone gets it

I know that Ridley's chances of getting in are higher than Dark Samus's, but Dark Samus is always an alternative if Ridley can't be put in for whatever reason. If they make her an Assist Trophy, then we would have to default to Sylux, which wouldn't be bad, but people would much prefer Dark Samus.

Exactly. The order goes Ridley>Dark Samus>Everyone Else. Because Ridley is just debatable everyone else is considered less likely than Ridley.

 

[arcticfox8]

So.. It's decided.

Mother Brain will be PM's new Metroid rep.

No she can't
Sakurai decided she will be an Assist Trophy
Therefore she clearly isn't fit to be a playable character

 

[Sour Supreme]

No she can't
Sakurai decided she will be an Assist Trophy
Therefore she clearly isn't fit to be a playable character

SHAMMIT SUCKURAI.

 

[NisforSmash]

No she can't
Sakurai decided she will be an Assist Trophy
Therefore she clearly isn't fit to be a playable character

I'll just let my attorney do the talking...

EDIT: That probably didn't help. I guess I'll just summarize. In saying what i did earlier, all i wanted to point out was that if the PMBR were trying to be as professional as possible then why not follow in the footsteps of the professional. I wasn't trying to say that his word is final regardless of what we say or think.

 

[caldonis]

I think Issac is the best pick because there's so much they can do with him and still stay true to his game. The Golden Sun series is also repped in nothing but assist trophies which is kind of ridiculous for a very popular, well reviewed series such as itself.

 

[Cool Blue]

Yeah, Isaac is pretty much a shoe-in at this point.

 

[MLGF]

Err... I think you mean shoo-in.

Then again...I'd main Isaac in a giant shoe.
His moveset potential just went up 500%. We already have sword users, we need shoe users.

 

[Cool Blue]

Err... I think you mean shoo-in.

Then again...I'd main Isaac in a giant shoe.
His moveset potential just went up 500%. We already have sword users, we need shoe users.

DUSTER CONFIRMED!

 

[arcticfox8]

Err... I think you mean shoo-in.

Then again...I'd main Isaac in a giant shoe.
His moveset potential just went up 500%. We already have sword users, we need shoe users.

Shadow confirmed
reference from like 200 pages ago

 

[Sour Supreme]

I knew we talked about Ray's assist trophy replacement. If Isaac was implemented, who would replace his assist?

 

[Cool Blue]

I knew we talked about Ray's assist trophy replacement. If Isaac was implemented, who would replace his assist?

Clearly Alfonso.

"Leave it to me!"

 

[Sour Supreme]

Clearly Alfonso.

"Leave it to me!"

Ahhhh. Yeah it makes sense.

 

[Pacack]

It would probably be another Ray model or something.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Err... I think you mean shoo-in.

Then again...I'd main Isaac in a giant shoe.
His moveset potential just went up 500%. We already have sword users, we need shoe users.

Kuribo's shoe confirmed?

 

[NisforSmash]

I knew we talked about Ray's assist trophy replacement. If Isaac was implemented, who would replace his assist?

There are a bunch of choices for Assist Trophy Replacement. An idea which i don't think was presented is to have master hand, crazy hand, or tabuu as assist trophies. They could come in and do one attack then disappear. They've already got a sound bank, gfx, and attacks so it's really just putting them in properly if it's even possible. This isn't what i would prefer but it's just an option if they didn't want to spend too much time devoted to replacing AT's.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I’ve made what may be the finishing touches on my post about the electric soldier Sukapon. I’ve put down everything on my mind at this point, so I don’t think I’ll be making any more changes unless I learn something new, or if anyone else has any contributions or critique. There’ve been a lot stealth edits, from grammatical corrections to complete rewrites, to every single section, even since my last revision, so I entreat you to give it a (re)read, especially if you did not previously find it persuasive.

In any case, the TL;DR summary:
Sukapon has the pedigree, aesthetic distinctiveness, player support, and cloneability to stand out as an excellent clone engine candidate. She offers a playstyle, physics, and design much more compelling than just "like this other character but stronger/faster/floatier/somethinger", yet does so without relying on disruptive gimmicks that redefine interactions, instead using the game's fundamentals in a new – but natural – way. Her specials boast traits that are simple to understand but rife with strategic depth and which no other character can replicate: the role of Konnan Irahen as both a movement- and zoning-option; the timing and tradeoff of using Tondekee's action command; the mindgames of KI/Tondekee mixups; and the long-range sweetspot of Super Sukapon Roll that still isn't sufficient to secure a successful snipe on the sought subject. Finally, an exclusive out-of-game opportunity is attainable with Joy Mech Fight and Sukapon. Much like the Smash series has done with Ice Climber and Captain Falcon, PM has the chance to establish the game and character as products of its own dissemination. Whenever you see a Joy Mech Fight fanwork – be it comic, video, image, prose, game, or just a casual reference – you could infer that the creator shares an interest in Project M.

Going forward, I’ll be making concept art to try to get across how cool Sukapon could be without relying on an ocean of text. Like so:

I’d also like to include any art anyone else does, if anyone does any art.

 

[UltimateWario]

I knew we talked about Ray's assist trophy replacement. If Isaac was implemented, who would replace his assist?

I imagine that Felix or Matthew could fill his role without any trouble.

 

[Saito]

I'm just going to say this here because people still got it twisted.

The PMBR does not have representation on its list of criteria.
The idea of specific game representation is probably far less important than characters that can bring unique elements of play to the table. Popularity alone does have an effect though.

With that being said, Ridley has a lot of potential for a moveset, but a lot of that potential has probably been placed into charizard already.

Issac is VERY likely to make it in if he is not in Smash 4.

Very popular, Highly demanded, (Underrepresented even though it doesn't matter as much), and Unique potential because of his synergy.
I could sort of see him as the kind of swordsman that controls the field literally.

 

[arcticfox8]

Sukapon is a really cool bro
Easily in my top 5 favorites of the viable candidates for PM/Sm4sh

 

[CardiganBoy]

Sakurai don't want Sukapon neither, can deconfirm.

 

[robosteven]

I'm really hoping Isaac isn't in Smash 4 just for the purpose of playing him in the PM engine.

...I'm really hoping Sukapon is chosen as a clone engine character because he/she looks neato-torpedo.

 

[NisforSmash]

I'm really hoping Isaac isn't in Smash 4 just for the purpose of playing him in the PM engine.

...I'm really hoping Sukapon is chosen as a clone engine character because he/she looks neato-torpedo.

Ditto on the Isaac. While sukapon would have an interesting moveset personally i would prefer someone else like lyn or dixie.

 

[Solbliminal]

...i would prefer someone else like lyn...

No she can't
Sakurai decided she will be an Assist Trophy
Therefore she clearly isn't fit to be a playable character

 

[Shin F.]

AT Status. Let sakurai make the decision.

By this logic, we shouldn't have any characters for the Clone Engine - ever. Because PMBR's rules state a character has to be in Brawl to be eligible. But Sakurai decided every character in Brawl but not playable should only be a trophy or a sticker. Therefore, we should never add a character.

Sorry guys, guess the thread has been pointless since the beginning.

 

[Solbliminal]

By this logic, we shouldn't have any characters for the Clone Engine - ever. Because PMBR's rules state a character has to be in Brawl to be eligible. But Sakurai decided every character in Brawl but not playable should only be a trophy or a sticker. Therefore, we should never add a character.

Sorry guys, guess the thread has been pointless since the beginning.

Woe is my life. Guess I should go sell my Wii then.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Sorry Sukapon fans.. I checked Sakurai's internet browsing history and didn't find a single shred of Sukapon interest among the many porn sites.

Sakurai deems him, ineligible.

 

[NisforSmash]

Sakurai don't want Sukapon neither, can deconfirm.

By this logic, we shouldn't have any characters for the Clone Engine - ever. Because PMBR's rules state a character has to be in Brawl to be eligible. But Sakurai decided every character in Brawl but not playable should only be a trophy or a sticker. Therefore, we should never add a character.

Sorry guys, guess the thread has been pointless since the beginning.

Woe is my life. Guess I should go sell my Wii then.

Sorry Sukapon fans.. I checked Sakurai's internet browsing history and didn't find a single shred of Sukapon interest among the many porn sites.

Sakurai deems him, ineligible.

From and earlier post of mine which you all seem to have ignored.

In saying what i did earlier, all i wanted to point out was that if the PMBR were trying to be as professional as possible then why not follow in the footsteps of the professional. I wasn't trying to say that his word is final regardless of what we say or think.

/discussion
Unless anyone wants to challenge me on my intentions.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

What's this about Sukapon being deconfirmed?

I can't find proof of that, but if it's true then he's now less risky to add to Project M, like the many other assist trophies in Smash 4.

 

[Anti Guy]

What's this about Sukapon being deconfirmed?

I can't find proof of that, but if it's true then he's now less risky to add to Project M, like the many other assist trophies in Smash 4.

It was a joke..

I'll just let my attorney do the talking...

EDIT: That probably didn't help. I guess I'll just summarize. In saying what i did earlier, all i wanted to point out was that if the PMBR were trying to be as professional as possible then why not follow in the footsteps of the professional. I wasn't trying to say that his word is final regardless of what we say or think.

"Following in the footsteps of the professional" in this case = C&D waiting to happen...

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

It was a joke..

Sorry everyone, I've lowered this thread's integrity.

 

[Shin F.]

I'll just let my attorney do the talking...

EDIT: That probably didn't help. I guess I'll just summarize. In saying what i did earlier, all i wanted to point out was that if the PMBR were trying to be as professional as possible then why not follow in the footsteps of the professional. I wasn't trying to say that his word is final regardless of what we say or think.

Being professional doesn't mean following other professionals. In fact, I would say it's more professional to carve your own path with your own decisions rather than to simply copy what others have done. If PMBR followed all you Sakurai's decisions because he's supposedly more professional, you know what Project M would be? It would just be Brawl. It's better that PMBR do things their way, and no one else's.

 

[splat]

​

Now that this guy's been confirmed to appear in Smash 4 as an Assist Trophy, can we discuss the possibility of him as a playable character in Project M? I personally think he could work pretty well as a heavily 'luigified' Zamus...

 

[NisforSmash]

"Following in the footsteps of the professional" in this case = C&D waiting to happen...

In general with regard to Project M i would agree with you however in the context of the argument and the comments that were previously made, it's not as simple as you present it.

On the page where i am discussing whether or not the hunters should be playable characters, i made the comment that Ridley was really the only debatable playable character. Someone replied asking about the inclusion of dark samus to which i said AT status. Let sakurai make the decision. While it may not have been clear then, i stated the intentions i had in making that comment later in the argument.

"In saying what i did earlier, all i wanted to point out was that if the PMBR were trying to be as professional as possible then why not follow in the footsteps of the professional. I wasn't trying to say that his word is final regardless of what we say or think." - Me

Now in the context of the argument i was referring to dark samus' inclusion as an Assist Trophy and NOT a playable character in smash 4 as what we should be doing by "following in the footsteps of the professional." Now whether i was referring to dark samus as being included in PM as an assist trophy or not being playable at all does not matter because both instances still fall under the category of "following in the footsteps of the professional" where the professional (Sakurai) has made the decision to not include dark samus as a character which deserved representation in the realm of playable characters. Where the line gets blurry is depending on our actions, yes a C&D may be issued if dark samus is included as an assist trophy replacement in project m, or no a C&D will not occur because we decided to leave him/her out altogether.

All that being said, your comment would be correct if you said "could possibly result" but in this case you said "in this case =C&D waiting to happen" meaning this is an all or nothing situation. Because it is somewhere inbetween, by default your statement is technically incorrect.

Being professional doesn't mean following other professionals. In fact, I would say it's more professional to carve your own path with your own decisions rather than to simply copy what others have done. If PMBR followed all you Sakurai's decisions because he's supposedly more professional, you know what Project M would be? It would just be Brawl. It's better that PMBR do things their way, and no one else's.

I agree that being professional doesn't mean following other professionals but for a community group of amateur game developers/designers "following in the footsteps" refers to taking inspiration from and not copying exactly. I especially think this group would want to pay attention to this specific developer in that he pretty much created the game genre himself.

Sakurai isn't supposedly more professional, he is a professional where the PMBR are not. Although it can be argued that money has nothing to do with it, in this case there is something to be said about the legitimacy of a multi million dollar game series vs a mod based off of said game series. Also keep in mind who has more developing experience.

It's better the BR do things in their own way. I can agree with that especially when the BR themself said they wanted to present the most professional product that they can. This doesn't mean mimic every move of a developer. This means look at a decision a developer made and ask why they made it. Then see if the same decision or a similar decision can/cannot be applied to your own product based on what you intend to create.

I'm not sure whether your last remark was a shot being fired at brawl. If it was, keep in mind that without Brawl, Project M wouldn't even exist.

Sorry everyone, I've lowered this thread's integrity.

You've nothing to be worried about. This threads integrity is resting on the case of NisforSmash v Smashboards. (Although i wish it didn't have to be like this)

 

[Shin F.]

I agree that being professional doesn't mean following other professionals but for a community group of amateur game developers/designers "following in the footsteps" refers to taking inspiration from and not copying exactly. I especially think this group would want to pay attention to this specific developer in that he pretty much created the game genre himself.

Sakurai isn't supposedly more professional, he is a professional where the PMBR are not. Although it can be argued that money has nothing to do with it, in this case there is something to be said about the legitimacy of a multi million dollar game series vs a mod based off of said game series. Also keep in mind who has more developing experience.

Legitimacy =/= professionalism. I would argue that PMBR are just as professional as any actual gaming corporation, even though they are not legitimate insofar as their game is a mod. Taking inspiration from someone is one thing, but making a decision just because they also made the same decision shows an unwillingness or inability to decide for yourself what is best.

It's better the BR do things in their own way. I can agree with that especially when the BR themself said they wanted to present the most professional product that they can. This doesn't mean mimic every move of a developer. This means look at a decision a developer made and ask why they made it. Then see if the same decision can/cannot be applied to your own product based on what you intend to create.

And again, if PMBR just looked at all of Sakurai's design decisions, Project M would just be Brawl. Nothing more, nothing less. Because every decision Sakurai made led to Brawl. Every decision, then, regarding Smash could be applied to Project M. If you want the game Sakurai designed, then play the game Sakurai designed. I want to play the game PMBR designed, with the decisions PMBR made. While Sakurai's decisions created the base of the game, PMBR have taken it their own way. As such, they should continue to do things their way and make their own decisions.

I'm not sure whether your last remark was a shot being fired at brawl. If it was, keep in mind that without Brawl, Project M wouldn't even exist.

No, it wasn't a jab at Brawl, it was a statement of fact. If PMBR made every decision just as Sakurai made it, the result would be Brawl. That isn't what they want, nor it should it be. They should do what they think is best for the game, not what Sakurai thinks is best. That's not to say there's something wrong with Brawl, but Project M is their take on the game and it should reflect their decisions, not Sakurai's.

 

[arcticfox8]

No Lyn
No Saki
No Dark Samus
No Ashley
No Waluigi
No Goroh
No Starfy
No Knuckle Joe
No Midna
No Skull Kid

Sakurai said so

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Sakurai isn't supposedly more professional, he is a professional where the PMBR are not.

I stopped reading at this.

Look, just because the PMBR hasn't had a hand in developing every single SSB game / worked with SSB since the beginning doesn't mean their current attitude of going about with this mod is in any way unprofessional. Being involved with an official product doesn't automatically mean you know what's best or appropriate for it--Sakurai probably wouldn't know what extra 7 characters to add as DLC to Brawl any better than the Project M Backroom would.

Whatever they end up doing--considering the rest of their tireless efforts on stages, graphics (the new menu, etc.), and, most crucially, balance--we can be rest assured that, even if it doesn't satisfy everyone, will still be as sufficient as a "professional" developer's efforts, perhaps, dare I say, even more professional.

 

[Solbliminal]

In general with regard to Project M i would agree with you however in the context of the argument and the comments that were previously made, it's not as simple as you present it.

On the page where i am discussing whether or not the hunters should be playable characters, i made the comment that Ridley was really the only debatable playable character. Someone replied asking about the inclusion of dark samus to which i said AT status. Let sakurai make the decision. While it may not have been clear then, i stated the intentions i had in making that comment later in the argument.

"In saying what i did earlier, all i wanted to point out was that if the PMBR were trying to be as professional as possible then why not follow in the footsteps of the professional. I wasn't trying to say that his word is final regardless of what we say or think." - Me

Now in the context of the argument i was referring to dark samus' inclusion as an Assist Trophy and NOT a playable character in smash 4 as what we should be doing by "following in the footsteps of the professional." Now whether i was referring to dark samus as being included in PM as an assist trophy or not being playable at all does not matter because both instances still fall under the category of "following in the footsteps of the professional" where the professional (Sakurai) has made the decision to not include dark samus as a character which deserved representation in the realm of playable characters. Where the line gets blurry is depending on our actions, yes a C&D may be issued if dark samus is included as an assist trophy replacement in project m, or no a C&D will not occur because we decided to leave him/her out altogether.

All that being said, your comment would be correct if you said "could possibly result" but in this case you said "in this case =C&D waiting to happen" meaning this is an all or nothing situation. Because it is somewhere inbetween, by default your statement is technically incorrect.

I agree that being professional doesn't mean following other professionals but for a community group of amateur game developers/designers "following in the footsteps" refers to taking inspiration from and not copying exactly. I especially think this group would want to pay attention to this specific developer in that he pretty much created the game genre himself.

Sakurai isn't supposedly more professional, he is a professional where the PMBR are not. Although it can be argued that money has nothing to do with it, in this case there is something to be said about the legitimacy of a multi million dollar game series vs a mod based off of said game series. Also keep in mind who has more developing experience.

It's better the BR do things in their own way. I can agree with that especially when the BR themself said they wanted to present the most professional product that they can. This doesn't mean mimic every move of a developer. This means look at a decision a developer made and ask why they made it. Then see if the same decision or a similar decision can/cannot be applied to your own product based on what you intend to create.

I'm not sure whether your last remark was a shot being fired at brawl. If it was, keep in mind that without Brawl, Project M wouldn't even exist.

You've nothing to be worried about. This threads integrity is resting on the case of NisforSmash v Smashboards. (Although i wish it didn't have to be like this)

Look man. I honestly believe you have no idea what you are talking about. To claim PMBR should make any decisions that other professionals do, is to claim they have no sense of professionalism themselves. If we are going to go about this your way, PMBR's first mistake was making a mod instead of their own game. Be gracious this mod even exists the way it does, because it took a very professional mindset to even make it possible. The PMBR has already dictated what will decide the character they choose, assuming they decide to make another character, and that is the overall popularity and demand of a character. And I'm pretty sure I don't have to break out the rule book to tell you what characters are eligible. Live with it and pick the characters you want to support instead of complicating such a simple matter.

 

[Saito]

If the PMBR isn't professional then I guess we should leave the balancing in the hands of the unprofessional more often.

I knew those big companies were always up to no good.

 

[Solbliminal]

If the PMBR isn't professional then I guess we should leave the balancing in the hands of the unprofessional more often.

I knew those big companies were always up to no good.

Damn big companies taking away our mains.